From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action


We've known that the "System Shock 2 Remaster" has been under
development for a while, but at long last we know when it's (expected)
to release (June 26th, to be precise).

This isn't going to be a full remaster along the lines of the 2023
"System Shock" game, with an entirely new engine, new levels,
textures, sounds. Rather, it will be more akin to the 2015 "Enhanced
Edition" releases of the first system shock game; a shiny new gloss
atop the 1999 sequel. E.g., the sort of thing you can create for
yourself if you download all those fan-made patches and apply them
yourself.

(actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the underlying engine is
replaced by developer Nightdive Studio's own Kexx engine, but this
hasn't been clarified one way or the other. But the game will largely
look and play exactly like the 1999 game).

I always preferred "System Shock 2" more than the first game, so I
should be excited about this, and I guess I am. But, honestly, the
1999 version still holds up pretty well and the changes brought with
the remaster don't really change things up very much. The whole thing
sort of seems a bit pointless. With "System Shock", first released in
1994, there was a lot of room for improvement and both the Enhanced
Edition and later full remaster made notable improvements. The
improvements of the "System Shock 2" remaster are a lot less obvious.
It's going to be a lot harder sell.

I mean, sure, we all know eventually it's going to end up in my video
game library, but that's not saying much; that same library has four
copies of "Overcooked" in it. But I'm in no rush to buy the remake...
much less pre-order it. And the original will do me fine in the mean
time.





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On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:19:14 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

This isn't going to be a full remaster along the lines of the 2023
"System Shock" game, with an entirely new engine, new levels,
textures, sounds. Rather, it will be more akin to the 2015 "Enhanced
Edition" releases of the first system shock game; a shiny new gloss
atop the 1999 sequel. E.g., the sort of thing you can create for
yourself if you download all those fan-made patches and apply them
yourself.

System Shock 2 is one of my favorite games ever. For some reason, I
listen to the audio logs every time I play it and so now I have many
of them memorized from playing the game so many times. I like the
first game, but I don't think it is anywhere as good as the sequel.

Your post initially had me excited but what you describe here does not
make this remaster sound all that interesting to me. To be clear, I do
NOT want a full on reboot, but I want more then something that I can
do myself with various mods.
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Mike S <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote at 02:31 this Sunday (GMT):

On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:19:14 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

This isn't going to be a full remaster along the lines of the 2023
"System Shock" game, with an entirely new engine, new levels,
textures, sounds. Rather, it will be more akin to the 2015 "Enhanced >>Edition" releases of the first system shock game; a shiny new gloss
atop the 1999 sequel. E.g., the sort of thing you can create for
yourself if you download all those fan-made patches and apply them >>yourself.

System Shock 2 is one of my favorite games ever. For some reason, I
listen to the audio logs every time I play it and so now I have many
of them memorized from playing the game so many times. I like the
first game, but I don't think it is anywhere as good as the sequel.

Your post initially had me excited but what you describe here does not
make this remaster sound all that interesting to me. To be clear, I do
NOT want a full on reboot, but I want more then something that I can
do myself with various mods.

Paying companies for re-releases that have mods packaged in seems to be
their new favorite past time.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 06:20:07 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

Mike S <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote at 02:31 this Sunday (GMT):

On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:19:14 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson >><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

This isn't going to be a full remaster along the lines of the 2023 >>>"System Shock" game, with an entirely new engine, new levels,
textures, sounds. Rather, it will be more akin to the 2015 "Enhanced >>>Edition" releases of the first system shock game; a shiny new gloss
atop the 1999 sequel. E.g., the sort of thing you can create for
yourself if you download all those fan-made patches and apply them >>>yourself.

Your post initially had me excited but what you describe here does not
make this remaster sound all that interesting to me. To be clear, I do
NOT want a full on reboot, but I want more then something that I can
do myself with various mods.

Paying companies for re-releases that have mods packaged in seems to be
their new favorite past time.

In fairness, it /might/ be more than just 'repackaging mods' but all
the screenshots I've seen don't make it look like the end-result will
be /much more/ than what you can make for yourself. Like I said, it's
equally possible that Nightdive will port the entire thing to their
Kexx engine, which is definitely more than just a mod-repack. I don't
know if they're actually using modded assets or making their own
either.

But the screenshots they have on GOG don't look all that much improved
over those of System Shock 2 Rebirth, and that makes the purchase of
the game a lot more of a hard sell. Visually, it seems they're selling
the convenience of not having to do all the work of finding /
downloading / installing / configuring the mods yourself, which is
cool (and, admittedly, I'll probably get the game just for that) but
is it worth grabbing it for $30? Especially since the changes are so
minor.

Here's an example of the changes, showing a zombie in the unmodded
1999 game, what it looks like in Rebirth, and what a pre-release
screenshot from the 2025 remaster. https://imgur.com/a/cXR2YeJ


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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:19:14 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

We've known that the "System Shock 2 Remaster" has been under
development for a while, but at long last we know when it's (expected)
to release (June 26th, to be precise).

Still, what with the "System Shock" games getting remastered, here's
hoping that one day "Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri" will get some
love too. That game was waaaaay ahead of its time, with huge maps and
rolling natural terrain that wouldn't be matched for years. It's water
had real-time reflections, even... in 1996! It had a physics engine
and procedural animation too. Plus, it was a lot of fun to play. It's low-resolution (max 320x240) makes it a bit hard to endure, but
imagine what could be done with nowadays if it were ported to Unreal
Engine 5! ;-)

For that matter, I wouldn't mind if "Flight Unlimited" were given a
second chance too. Even today, the game looks pretty good, with a huge
map and incredibly long sight-lines. Throw in some 3D modelled
ground-clutter and improve the lighting a bit and you've got a winning
game!

"Thief", "System Shock" and the "Underworld" games get all the
attention, but I wish some of Looking Glass's lesser-known projects
got some appreciation too. Heck, I'd even like an update to their
"British Open Championship Golf" game ;-)
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:19:14 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

(actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the underlying engine is
replaced by developer Nightdive Studio's own Kexx engine, but this
hasn't been clarified one way or the other. But the game will largely
look and play exactly like the 1999 game).

How would that happen? SS2 (1999) uses the Thief "Dark" engine.

Kexx can replace that? I had no idea it was that flexible.

That said, with the improved Dark engine that I have on my drive (with
bloom and widescreen support) and all the texture packs, I think I'll
pass. I know from the trailer that the nurses in the remaster look worse
than a modded original install with the high res fan patch (shtup).

Especially if they go with Kexx.
--
Zag

This is csipg.rpg - reality is off topic. ...G. Quinn ('08)
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:43:06 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:19:14 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

(actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the underlying engine is
replaced by developer Nightdive Studio's own Kexx engine, but this
hasn't been clarified one way or the other. But the game will largely
look and play exactly like the 1999 game).

How would that happen? SS2 (1999) uses the Thief "Dark" engine.

Kexx can replace that? I had no idea it was that flexible.

That said, with the improved Dark engine that I have on my drive (with
bloom and widescreen support) and all the texture packs, I think I'll
pass. I know from the trailer that the nurses in the remaster look worse
than a modded original install with the high res fan patch (shtup).

Especially if they go with Kexx.

(note: apparently it's Kex Engine, with one 'x'. I always thought it
had a double-X, so apologies for my earlier errors)

Anyway, the real work isn't so much the underlying engine as much as
it is decompiling all the scripting that makes the quests and
mechanics work. After all, there have been many attempts to update
older games to unreal (or other engines) and the place those fan-mods
usually crash to the stop is /not/ porting over the graphics and level
data, but translating the game-logic, because that's the bit that
requires a lot of savvy and effort.

But Kex is quite capable in that regard. It's been used in most of
Nightdive's more recent releases, including "System Shock Enhanced",
"Quake II (2021)", "Powerslave", "Dark Forces", "The Thing
Remastered" and even their remake of the 1997 "Blade Runner" game. Kex
Engine might not have the capability to pump out highest-quality
visuals, but it was purpose built to be able to interface or emulate
the game-logic of older titles.

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 10:44:32 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

But Kex is quite capable in that regard. It's been used in most of >Nightdive's more recent releases, including "System Shock Enhanced",
"Quake II (2021)", "Powerslave", "Dark Forces", "The Thing
Remastered" and even their remake of the 1997 "Blade Runner" game. Kex
Engine might not have the capability to pump out highest-quality
visuals, but it was purpose built to be able to interface or emulate
the game-logic of older titles.

Hmm. It will be interesting to know if they used Kex, because Dark engine
has some very niche features that were necessary for stealth mechanics.
--
Zag

This is csipg.rpg - reality is off topic. ...G. Quinn ('08)
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

I mean, sure, we all know eventually it's going to end up in my video
game library, but that's not saying much; that same library has four
copies of "Overcooked" in it. But I'm in no rush to buy the remake...

I think I'm getting this for free for participating in the System Shock
Remake Kickstarter. So, no complaints, looking forward to dusting off
that bent monocycle one last time and taking it for a spin :)
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote at 15:42 this Sunday (GMT):

On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 06:20:07 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07
<candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

Mike S <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote at 02:31 this Sunday (GMT):

On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:19:14 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson >>><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

This isn't going to be a full remaster along the lines of the 2023 >>>>"System Shock" game, with an entirely new engine, new levels,
textures, sounds. Rather, it will be more akin to the 2015 "Enhanced >>>>Edition" releases of the first system shock game; a shiny new gloss >>>>atop the 1999 sequel. E.g., the sort of thing you can create for >>>>yourself if you download all those fan-made patches and apply them >>>>yourself.

Your post initially had me excited but what you describe here does not
make this remaster sound all that interesting to me. To be clear, I do
NOT want a full on reboot, but I want more then something that I can
do myself with various mods.

Paying companies for re-releases that have mods packaged in seems to be >>their new favorite past time.

In fairness, it /might/ be more than just 'repackaging mods' but all
the screenshots I've seen don't make it look like the end-result will
be /much more/ than what you can make for yourself. Like I said, it's
equally possible that Nightdive will port the entire thing to their
Kexx engine, which is definitely more than just a mod-repack. I don't
know if they're actually using modded assets or making their own
either.

But the screenshots they have on GOG don't look all that much improved
over those of System Shock 2 Rebirth, and that makes the purchase of
the game a lot more of a hard sell. Visually, it seems they're selling
the convenience of not having to do all the work of finding /
downloading / installing / configuring the mods yourself, which is
cool (and, admittedly, I'll probably get the game just for that) but
is it worth grabbing it for $30? Especially since the changes are so
minor.

Here's an example of the changes, showing a zombie in the unmodded
1999 game, what it looks like in Rebirth, and what a pre-release
screenshot from the 2025 remaster. https://imgur.com/a/cXR2YeJ

So, if someone were to make a modpack..
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 22:40:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote at 15:42 this Sunday (GMT): >> On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 06:20:07 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 >><candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote: >>>><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

This isn't going to be a full remaster along the lines of the 2023 >>>>>"System Shock" game, with an entirely new engine, new levels, >>>>>textures, sounds. Rather, it will be more akin to the 2015 "Enhanced >>>>>Edition" releases of the first system shock game; a shiny new gloss >>>>>atop the 1999 sequel. E.g., the sort of thing you can create for >>>>>yourself if you download all those fan-made patches and apply them >>>>>yourself.

So, if someone were to make a modpack..

There used to be one called "System Shock 2 Redux" that loaded a bunch
of the most popular SS2 mods into one single easy-to-install package,
but it looks like it got taken down (I don't think the person who made
it got permission from all involved to use their specific creations in
his uber-mod). But I'm sure it probably lingers in certain corners of
the Internet.

But essentially, that seems all that this remastered version of
"System Shock 2" will be. Again, I'm not implying Nightdive is simply
packaging up mods and selling it to you. In fact, from what little
I've seen, it looks like they're making their own texture and models.
But the end result doesn't seem like it will be any more impressive
(and, in some cases, actually looks less impressive) than what the
modders have already done.

What you're paying for is mostly the convenience of having all the
work done for you. Also, it doesn't hurt that this new edition will
probably be the new 'base version' for any future mods (in fact, one
of the advertised features of the remastered version is 'better
support for mods'). But the question is: does all that justify the $40 price-tag, especially if --as most people who are interested in the
game are likely to be-- you already own the original game?


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On Wed, 26 Mar 2025 11:44:22 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

What you're paying for is mostly the convenience of having all the
work done for you. Also, it doesn't hurt that this new edition will
probably be the new 'base version' for any future mods (in fact, one
of the advertised features of the remastered version is 'better
support for mods').

This is a very good point. I use a lot of mods and addons for Baldur's
Gate 1 and 2. I am not sure how many of them will even work with the non-enhanced version of the games. I think the Enhanced Editions are
now considered, as you say, 'the base versions'.
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