• Tesla car goes on killing spree

    From Ben Collver@bencollver@tilde.pink to comp.misc on Mon Nov 14 19:05:46 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    "The driver Mr. Zhan (who drives lorries for a living) said when he
    was attempting to park his Tesla, the brake pedal went too hard to
    push and pressing P mode also didn't help. The car kept accelerating
    while Zhan desperately hitting the brakes but to no avail. CCTV
    camera caught the brake light went on for a moment yet the car didn't
    slow down. One of the front tires exploded after the car drove off
    for 1.2 kilometers and it finally came to a stop after another 1.4
    kilos, hitting multiple vehicles, killing 2 [people] and injuring 3
    [others]. The driver suffered several broken ribs but has been in
    stable condition. On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
    driver never hit the brakes (as they always do after such incidents).
    Police confirmed Mr. Zhan was not under the influence of alcohol or
    drugs and are still investigating the case."

    Video footage:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/ytvo2g/ tesla_lost_control_when_parking_and_took_off_to/
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From The Real Bev@bashley101@gmail.com to comp.misc on Mon Nov 14 12:25:54 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    On 11/14/22 11:05 AM, Ben Collver wrote:
    "The driver Mr. Zhan (who drives lorries for a living) said when he
    was attempting to park his Tesla, the brake pedal went too hard to
    push and pressing P mode also didn't help. The car kept accelerating
    while Zhan desperately hitting the brakes but to no avail. CCTV
    camera caught the brake light went on for a moment yet the car didn't
    slow down. One of the front tires exploded after the car drove off
    for 1.2 kilometers and it finally came to a stop after another 1.4
    kilos, hitting multiple vehicles, killing 2 [people] and injuring 3
    [others]. The driver suffered several broken ribs but has been in
    stable condition. On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
    driver never hit the brakes (as they always do after such incidents).
    Police confirmed Mr. Zhan was not under the influence of alcohol or
    drugs and are still investigating the case."

    88 Caddy did that for a while, first time was terrifying. No solution
    to the problem, and I eventually junked the car. When it did it (not
    very often) the only solution was to turn off the engine -- not always a convenient solution, but essential. When it figured out it couldn't
    kill me that way it changed its behavior in various ways. POS.
    Replaced it with a Toyota.
    --
    Cheers, Bev
    "Screw the end users. If they want good software,
    let them write it themselves." -- Anon.

    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mike Spencer@mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere to comp.misc on Mon Nov 14 18:24:20 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc


    The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:

    On 11/14/22 11:05 AM, Ben Collver wrote:

    "The driver Mr. Zhan (who drives lorries for a living) said when he
    was attempting to park his Tesla, the brake pedal went too hard to
    push and pressing P mode also didn't help. The car kept accelerating
    while Zhan desperately hitting the brakes but to no avail. CCTV
    camera caught the brake light went on for a moment yet the car didn't
    slow down. One of the front tires exploded after the car drove off
    for 1.2 kilometers and it finally came to a stop after another 1.4
    kilos, hitting multiple vehicles, killing 2 [people] and injuring 3
    [others]. The driver suffered several broken ribs but has been in
    stable condition. On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
    driver never hit the brakes (as they always do after such incidents).
    Police confirmed Mr. Zhan was not under the influence of alcohol or
    drugs and are still investigating the case."

    88 Caddy did that for a while, first time was terrifying. No solution
    to the problem, and I eventually junked the car. When it did it (not
    very often) the only solution was to turn off the engine -- not always a convenient solution, but essential. When it figured out it couldn't
    kill me that way it changed its behavior in various ways. POS.
    Replaced it with a Toyota.

    Doesn't even need a computer. The updraught carb on an International
    Harvester Silver Diamond (circa 1950) engine was spring-loaded
    full-open by a spring internal to the carb. Then the external
    throttle spring held it closed. Depressing the throttle pedal allowed
    the internal spring to open the throttle plate.

    But when such an engine was 25 or 30 years old, wear on the linkage
    *internal* to the carb allowed the throttle plate & internal spring to
    become uncoupled from the external throttle linkage, pushing the
    throttle plate abruptly to maximum open.

    What a brilliant design feature!

    The fix (after the truck was brought somehow to a halt) was to remove
    some small screws low down in the engine compartment, remove a small
    cover plate, re-engage the internal linkage and reassemble, something
    that I did in the dark a couple of times.

    No interaction with the brakes, of course, but the SD engine was
    pretty powerful for a little old pickup truck's brakes to fight so
    power-down was the only workable tactic. A variant was to accelerate
    to scary speed, depress clutch, shut off ignition and coast until
    quite slow, then turn on ignition and bump-start by popping the
    clutch. Did that once on a couple of miles of hilly, crooked gravel
    road where roadside twiddling was particularly undesirable.

    At least I could figure out and understand what was going on. I
    assume a Tesla is a black box.
    --
    Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From The Real Bev@bashley101@gmail.com to comp.misc on Mon Nov 14 14:43:31 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    On 11/14/22 2:24 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
    The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:

    On 11/14/22 11:05 AM, Ben Collver wrote:

    "The driver Mr. Zhan (who drives lorries for a living) said when he
    was attempting to park his Tesla, the brake pedal went too hard to
    push and pressing P mode also didn't help. The car kept accelerating
    while Zhan desperately hitting the brakes but to no avail. CCTV
    camera caught the brake light went on for a moment yet the car didn't
    slow down. One of the front tires exploded after the car drove off
    for 1.2 kilometers and it finally came to a stop after another 1.4
    kilos, hitting multiple vehicles, killing 2 [people] and injuring 3
    [others]. The driver suffered several broken ribs but has been in
    stable condition. On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
    driver never hit the brakes (as they always do after such incidents).
    Police confirmed Mr. Zhan was not under the influence of alcohol or
    drugs and are still investigating the case."

    88 Caddy did that for a while, first time was terrifying. No solution
    to the problem, and I eventually junked the car. When it did it (not
    very often) the only solution was to turn off the engine -- not always a
    convenient solution, but essential. When it figured out it couldn't
    kill me that way it changed its behavior in various ways. POS.
    Replaced it with a Toyota.

    It was the first one I looked at. At a DEALERSHIP, for chrissake. I
    didn't even look under the hood, I asked for a white Corolla a few years
    old. This one had only 16K miles and was immaculate. I couldn't think
    of a reason NOT to buy it. 9 years old and there's only 35K on it. I'll
    be buried in the damn thing.

    Doesn't even need a computer. The updraught carb on an International Harvester Silver Diamond (circa 1950) engine was spring-loaded
    full-open by a spring internal to the carb. Then the external
    throttle spring held it closed. Depressing the throttle pedal allowed
    the internal spring to open the throttle plate.

    But when such an engine was 25 or 30 years old, wear on the linkage *internal* to the carb allowed the throttle plate & internal spring to
    become uncoupled from the external throttle linkage, pushing the
    throttle plate abruptly to maximum open.

    What a brilliant design feature!

    The fix (after the truck was brought somehow to a halt) was to remove
    some small screws low down in the engine compartment, remove a small
    cover plate, re-engage the internal linkage and reassemble, something
    that I did in the dark a couple of times.

    How wonderful it was when things had MECHANICAL problems and fixes. We
    didn't appreciate it at the time. When the throttle return-spring on
    my 1983 Suzuki gave up the ghost I replaced it with a pencil eraser.

    No interaction with the brakes, of course, but the SD engine was
    pretty powerful for a little old pickup truck's brakes to fight so
    power-down was the only workable tactic. A variant was to accelerate
    to scary speed, depress clutch, shut off ignition and coast until
    quite slow, then turn on ignition and bump-start by popping the
    clutch. Did that once on a couple of miles of hilly, crooked gravel
    road where roadside twiddling was particularly undesirable.

    At least I could figure out and understand what was going on. I
    assume a Tesla is a black box.

    There's a possibility that this is a feature; doesn't everyone what to
    floor it immediately just to experience that great acceleration? They
    just want to make it easy! That's the only reason a REAL person would
    want a Tesla.

    The Caddy would behave itself upon restart. First time for about 15
    minutes -- I figured if I killed it once I could do it again, and I was
    right. Thereafter it happened every few weeks. Trusted GM mech
    replaced whatever he could get, but there was some obscure carb/computer
    part that was simply unavailable even through wrecking yards. Stupid
    engine, brakes and trans were in perfect shape when I took it to the
    wrecker. Kalifornia paid me $1K to kill it, and NO parts could be
    re-sold. I hated that part, the POS had all new brakes and tires. I
    hope the wrecker cheated.
    --
    Cheers, Bev
    "If you like to stand on your head and spit pickles in the snow, on the
    Internet there are at least three other people just like you."
    - Langston James Goree VI
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mike Spencer@mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 00:20:49 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc


    The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:

    How wonderful it was when things had MECHANICAL problems and fixes. We didn't appreciate it at the time.

    Yes. I once worked -- late 60s when the very first cars with
    computers were just appearing -- as a mechanic for a guy who said, "A
    man made it; a man can fix it." So we took in all manner of weird
    European cars and the occasional US antique. Our only failures were
    ones needing essential but utterly unobtainable parts that we coudn't fabricate.

    Now, of course, cars are made by robots. Soon the cars and the robots
    that make them will be designed by neural nets. Then there won't be a
    single human anywhere that knows how they were made.

    When the throttle return-spring on my 1983 Suzuki gave up the ghost
    I replaced it with a pencil eraser.

    Primo!

    "If you like to stand on your head and spit pickles in the snow, on the
    Internet there are at least three other people just like you."
    - Langston James Goree VI

    Yeah. "What kind of goat?"
    --
    Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Sylvia Else@sylvia@email.invalid to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 14:24:05 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    On 15/11/2022 6:05 am, Ben Collver wrote:
    On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
    driver never hit the brakes.

    By which they mean, of course, that their breke pressure sensor never
    detected anything, which might be the exact reason the brakes didn't work.

    Mind you, the fact that the brake lights came on pretty much shows that something was aware of the brake pedal being pushed.

    The level of mechanical disconnect between the driver and the brakes and steering is becoming alarming. It may be OK on fly-by-wire aircraft that
    have triplicated sytems, and usually time to figure things out, but
    it's time regulators put limits on motor vehicles.

    Sometimes the electronic systems seem just silly. How can it be cheaper
    to build an electronically operated hand brake (emergency brake for the
    yanks) than the conventional lever and ratchet design.

    I rejected the purchase of one vehicle pretty much solely because it had
    an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
    manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
    roll back, but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

    Sylvia.
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Bob Eager@news0009@eager.cx to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 08:51:06 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 14:24:05 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

    Sometimes the electronic systems seem just silly. How can it be cheaper
    to build an electronically operated hand brake (emergency brake for the yanks) than the conventional lever and ratchet design.

    I rejected the purchase of one vehicle pretty much solely because it had
    an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts?

    Mine does it for me. That's where the electronic version starts to win.
    --
    Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

    Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
    http://www.mirrorservice.org
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 09:06:35 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Sylvia Else wrote:

    The level of mechanical disconnect between the driver and the brakes and steering is becoming alarming. It may be OK on fly-by-wire aircraft that have
    triplicated sytems

    Apparently telsas used to have duplicated components handling the steering, until the chip-shortage, then they decided they could leave one of them out anyway ...

    CNBC link <https://cnb.cx/3Hz93BK>
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 09:09:25 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Sylvia Else wrote:

    it had an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never roll back,
    but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

    Press the accelerator, then it releases the brake when the robot clutch starts to bite, works well.

    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Bob Eager@news0009@eager.cx to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 09:13:33 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 09:09:25 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

    Sylvia Else wrote:

    it had an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
    manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
    roll back,
    but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

    Press the accelerator, then it releases the brake when the robot clutch starts to bite, works well.

    It also works well on my manual car. When I release the clutch, it
    releases the brake.
    --
    Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

    Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
    http://www.mirrorservice.org
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Rich@rich@example.invalid to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 14:12:44 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 15/11/2022 6:05 am, Ben Collver wrote:
    On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
    driver never hit the brakes.

    By which they mean, of course, that their breke pressure sensor never detected anything, which might be the exact reason the brakes didn't work.

    Mind you, the fact that the brake lights came on pretty much shows that something was aware of the brake pedal being pushed.

    It is possible the brake lights were still activated by a mechanical
    switch that detects movement of the pedal, no matter whether the
    hydraulic system produces any pressure to actually apply the brakes.

    The level of mechanical disconnect between the driver and the brakes and steering is becoming alarming. It may be OK on fly-by-wire aircraft that have triplicated sytems, and usually time to figure things out, but
    it's time regulators put limits on motor vehicles.

    Sometimes the electronic systems seem just silly. How can it be cheaper
    to build an electronically operated hand brake (emergency brake for the yanks) than the conventional lever and ratchet design.

    Probably some bean counter added up the costs of design and manufacture
    of the various components for each, and likely the lower 'parts count'
    for the electronic hand brake (no ratchet, no handle, just a push button [or worse, a 'touch screen area'] for the user control) and deemed that the
    BOM was lower.

    I rejected the purchase of one vehicle pretty much solely because it had
    an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
    manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
    roll back, but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

    Automatics don't roll backwards, provided the driver understands to
    load the torque converter by increasing engine RPM's sufficient to
    overcome gravity prior to releasing the foot brake. Of course doing so requires the driver to not use the manual transmission method of "same
    foot for accelerator and brake" control.

    Sadly, few drivers even 'understand' how their car operates at a
    superficial level. Expecting them to understand how to not roll
    backwards on a hill start in an automatic transmission car is expecting
    them to know way too much about how the mechanicals actually operate.

    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From scott@scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 17:07:38 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    I rejected the purchase of one vehicle pretty much solely because it had
    an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
    manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
    roll back, but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

    That's why they have hill start assist, yet another of the many "assists"
    that are available to deal with people who increasingly don't know how to drive.

    (First time I ran across that one was a bit disconcerting. I was moving a friend's car into my garage, and expected that putting the transmission in drive and letting off the brake would be enough to move it where it needed
    to go. That's all any car with an automatic (even a CVT) needs, right? It took careful application of the throttle to get the car into the garage
    without smashing through the wall. One step forward, two steps back?)
    --
    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet? --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Bruce Horrocks@07.013@scorecrow.com to comp.misc on Tue Nov 15 19:06:03 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    On 15/11/2022 09:09, Andy Burns wrote:
    Sylvia Else wrote:

    it had an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
    manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
    roll back, but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

    Press the accelerator, then it releases the brake when the robot clutch starts to bite, works well.


    Works well, *most times*.

    I had a hire car with that feature but it became problematic trying to
    exit an underground parking garage. The exit ramp was a 12% or so
    incline, but you needed to stop on the ramp to trigger the automatic
    roller door. Once it was open you needed to give the engine some beans
    to cause the car to release the brake and move forward, but then you
    needed to immediately stop so you didn't run over the pedestrians on the pavement.

    On any of my previous cars that had a manual handbrake this manoeuvre
    would have been trivial. The automatic brake made it much more fraught
    than it need be.

    Slightly unusual circumstances perhaps, but not utterly unique.
    --
    Bruce Horrocks
    Surrey, England

    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From not@not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) to comp.misc on Wed Nov 16 07:16:36 2022
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

    Sometimes the electronic systems seem just silly. How can it be cheaper
    to build an electronically operated hand brake (emergency brake for the
    yanks) than the conventional lever and ratchet design.

    Probably some bean counter added up the costs of design and manufacture
    of the various components for each, and likely the lower 'parts count'
    for the electronic hand brake (no ratchet, no handle, just a push button [or worse, a 'touch screen area'] for the user control) and deemed that the
    BOM was lower.

    Plus assembly of a handbrake system with a tensioned cable involved
    might have been more difficult for robots than assembling the
    electromechanical equivalent. This human certainly found one design
    very tricky to re-assemble.

    Electronic handbrake systems might go some way to solving my
    eternal problem of forgetting to release it (if this hill start
    thing that people are talking about works like I'm guessing it
    does). So compared to other electronic equivalents to manual
    linkages, this might actually be the only one with a real
    advantage for me.

    Yes cars always have a handbrake light on the dash, but you don't
    take off while staring at the dashboard, do you? Some sort of
    audible alarm linked to the speedo would be another workable
    solution though.
    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#
    --- Synchronet 3.19c-Linux NewsLink 1.113