On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:59:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 02/04/2026 14:33, Sn!pe wrote:
I remember seeing steamrollers working in my postwar early childhood.Gosh yes. So do I!
Steam trains were endemic in the 1950s
Our line was electrified but most were not.
Remember going on holiday behind one of these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_4073_Class
And later on one of the dragging just two coaches
The last long-distance steam-hauled train journey I went on was in
1979.
Details here, if anyone is interested:
<https://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2013/10/18/a-south-african-train-journey/>
So I guess that what happened in fiction is based on fact,
Twain's "Life on the Mississippi" includes a harrowing description of a steamboat boiler explosion; his own brother was killed in such an accident.
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> writes:
"True" AI ... it will probably come from NN's, not LLMs.
My understanding is that the current crop are base on neural networks.
However LLMs can *fake* it well enough now to be worrisome.
They DO seem to have a sort of "self" in there, just not
OUR kind.
No, there isn’t. They are predictive models of language, not minds.
On 3/04/2026 2:33 a.m., Sn!pe wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Actually in HF it would have been a steam engine that lost its >>>> cylinder head and the black man would have been a coal shovler orIt was still going strong when I was borne and I am younger than you.
an oiler which were both dangerous jobs. You will have to look
up on the net old steam engines and see how they were constructed
to better understand this. I immediately thought of IC engines.
Sorry about that but Steam was going out of style before I hatched.
But not on riverboats, I will agree.
I remember seeing steamrollers working in my postwar early childhood.
And steam shovels?
On 02/04/2026 21:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:59:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:You had some magnificent locos over there. Probably better than in te UK
Steam trains were endemic in the 1950s Our line was electrified but most >>> were not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Big_Boy
but no brit railway nerd will ever admit that :-)
On 03/04/2026 06:30, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:59:05 +0100, The Natural PhilosopherYeah., Early diesels could not handle the altitude of the S african
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 02/04/2026 14:33, Sn!pe wrote:
I remember seeing steamrollers working in my postwar early childhood.Gosh yes. So do I!
Steam trains were endemic in the 1950s
Our line was electrified but most were not.
Remember going on holiday behind one of these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_4073_Class
And later on one of the dragging just two coaches
The last long-distance steam-hauled train journey I went on was in
1979.
Details here, if anyone is interested:
<https://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2013/10/18/a-south-african-train-
journey/>
railways until turbochargers came along. You kept steam a little longer
than we did. And you never ran out of coal, like we did!
On 2026-03-31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-03-31 08:00, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-03-31, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 3/30/26 21:40, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 16:49:06 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Can but agree. I grew up with the older style desk in all myschools
and am grateful because I took lots of notes. But curiously in the >>>>>> 1940s there were no ballpoint pens or other modern writing tools so the >>>>>> groove held a terrible old pen and the round hole, an inkwell. Pencils >>>>>> were used to practice writing on lined paper that was rather fllimsy and >>>>>> we practiced with pens and used fountain pens at home to write our final >>>>>> drafts.
I can't remember what we used but it wasn't the inkwells. At some point I >>>>> had an inexpensive cartridge fountain pen. I cut costs further by using a >>>>> syringe to refill the cartridges from my mother's bottle of ink. I vaguely
recall the ones with an internal bladder and a lever on the side.
IIRC that's called a "converter", but I'm not sure if that's
Parker-specific parlance or the generic name for it.
Modern fountain pens may come with both methods. But I prefer to
refill cartridges with a syringe, wastes less ink at each refill.
Yeah, no complaints here. It was at least more convenient too. Now
perhaps having a *lid* for cartridges would have been nice too, so I
could just re-fill several and take them with me :-)
We used the cartridge pens as well. The fountain pen bladder
gets stiff with
age and lack of use. I am not sure we did the trick with refilling
the cartridges
but believe I did. Used pens through the Navy years for charting notes and
filling out forms that did not need to be typed.
I did the refilling one too to some extent, as the converter couldn't
hold that much ink, and going through cartridges wasn't cheap (perhaps
especially if these were not international standard...).
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/uploads/post-120277-0-77222500-1424011434.jpg
I know #1 and #10. My current pen uses #10. I think I have see #11
Here I think all cartridges I've used have been either 1 or 10. I don't
think I've ever seen 9, although I've used some pens where it'd fit
(actually I think I've only used one small enough where 9 *wouldn't*
fit, being the exception?).
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 20:29:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Our drawing teacher prohibited stencils for the letters, so we had to do
them by hand, and they had to be good. He also prohibited the “thread
parallel ruler” (name uncertain in English).
I never used one of those. I school we had T-squares.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-square
When I went to work we had drafting machines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_machine
Yes, they do come in a left handed model and I had one. Almost all my drafting was ladder diagrams or electronic schematics so I rarely used the protractor head. I did have an assortment of triangles for fixed angles.
The paper was graph paper with blue lines that didn't transfer to the blueprints so spacing was easy.
That was a lot easier than college where we used unlined paper and did
more complex drawings like the gears on a variable pitch propeller and isometrics.
The 0.5 mm mechanical pencils hadn't arrived so we used Eagle lead holders and sharpeners.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/235162606986 https://www.etsy.com/listing/1396227384/drafting-pencil-sharpener
The second is a bad photo but you stuck the pencil in the white holder and spun the top around. We did have electric erasers.
On 03/04/2026 07:15, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:27:07 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>Hell if you are in SA, most of the roads weren't even tarmacked >anyway....graders and gravel
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 20:29:56 +0100
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
We certainly had machines we called *steamrollers* in the same
period of mine. But I don't think that they were powered by steam
engines.
My memory was that actual steamrollers were used very late compared
to other steam-powered vehicles, and Wikipedia suggests this is true:
It's interesting how these things go. It's such an unquestioned piece
of linguistic drift that it honestly threw me for a loop when I learned
that the Japanese use "road roller" instead - I'd love to know the
etymological history there.
As noted elsethread, actual steamrollers used to go past the house
where we lived in the 1940s. They had a big flywheel. By the 1950s
most of them had disappeared, and were replaced by diesel-powered
ones, for which we used the more generic term "roadrollers".
On 03/04/2026 06:30, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:59:05 +0100, The Natural PhilosopherYeah., Early diesels could not handle the altitude of the S african
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 02/04/2026 14:33, Sn!pe wrote:
I remember seeing steamrollers working in my postwar early childhood.Gosh yes. So do I!
Steam trains were endemic in the 1950s
Our line was electrified but most were not.
Remember going on holiday behind one of these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_4073_Class
And later on one of the dragging just two coaches
The last long-distance steam-hauled train journey I went on was in
1979.
Details here, if anyone is interested:
<https://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2013/10/18/a-south-african-train-journey/>
railways until turbochargers came along. You kept steam a little longer
than we did. And you never ran out of coal, like we did!
On 4/2/26 07:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 04:32, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 02:18, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 15:57, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-01 21:16, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 13:58, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-04-01, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
One gripe with most LEDs though is that they may START >>>>>>>>> at 5K but soon 'warm up' to 4K or less. Maybe increasing >>>>>>>>> use of 'quantum dots' will stabilize that ?
Oh well, I still have a few metal kerosene 'railroad lamps' >>>>>>>>> with the wick like Farmer Brown would have owned. Hey, >>>>>>>>> they always WORK ....
Yeah, but they come nowhere near 4K, let alone 5K.
More like 2K.
However when the power lines are down ...
Hmm ... my mother remembered when one of the
older brothers wired the family home with
electricity. Before then, 'oil lamps'.
A summer when I was about 9, we went to my mother village. They
had no running water at the homes, no toilet. We used the stable. >>>>>> The house where we stayed had some electricity. They paid by the
number of bulbs. There was one in the main room, but I don't
remember about the bedrooms.
Well, Mom lived "on the farm" ... outhouse, hand-pumped
water. The brother (ugly guy but super-clever) wired the
whole house and then the electric company would connect.
He also apparently built their first radio from scrounged
parts, including a loudspeaker using an iron bar magnet
and glue-impregnated paper. I guess I kind of take after
him, though not QUITE as ugly :-)
I built a "headphone", from a kit. Basically a coil and a iron thin
sheet.
Uncle hand-wound the coil. That much he related.
Took a cardboard tube, kind of like what paper
towels come on, and soaked it in varnish to
make it rigid.
Dunno how he got everything symmetrical. Likely
wasn't a hi-fi radio, but good enough for voice.
Apparently there was a radio fix-it shop in
town and it had some left-over parts from
early 1920s models. He got the tubes and
likely transformers from there, one at a time.
Farmers and such didn't have lots of spare cash.
The village where my mother was born, had no water, almost no
electricity, and no cash, back in 1970. It was barter.
My tale was of the early 1930s, depression-era America.
And there was a lot of barter. Cash was hard to come by.
My mother told an anecdote of some entertainer with puppets that went
around the villages. Kids wanted to see it but had no money, so they
gave him eggs. Till the man had so many eggs that he exploded and said
he wanted no more eggs! What could he do with dozens of eggs on the
road? Some colourful expression he would have said that I have forgotten.
Not so unusual for people, entertainers, doctors, to
work for 'trade' in years past. If you didn't get cash
then at least you'd eat or someone would fix your roof
or whatever.
I wonder if they heard that "day which will live
in infamy" speech on that radio ?
Not too long before he died he asked me to explain
exactly how a CPU worked - and I found I could not
provide a low-level description. Still can't, have
no idea how instruction-fetch/decode/data-routing
works at the bare transistor level.
It is actually simple, but using gates, not transistors. Well,
transistors is one step further, each group form a gate. And a group
of gates form functions, like registers. It is overwhelming from
scratch, but if someone explains a function at a time, it becomes
"understandable". At least an old 8 bit CPU, like the 8085 or 6502.
A modern one is more steps in complexity.
I tried to study a 4004 ... but still couldn't
really assemble a mental model of how the needed
steps were done at the lowest level.
'Gates' are made from transistors. Those I get
just fine ... but how to build a CPU "machine"
out of them ............
You need somebody explaining it. Or a book that explains it. Trying to
study it doesn't work. It is complex, but there is a trick, a method
of explaining it and suddenly the mind does "click!" and you
understand it all.
Could never get the 'click' alas. The sheer complexity of
how even a 'simple' CPU works is daunting. Oh well, too
old now, I'll never get it. Can form an abstract picture,
but the silicon details ... nope .....
Nobody can explain or understand a modern CPU from scratch.
And I could not write the explanation of a simple CPU, either. I
have forgotten many things.
SOME people "get it" - but very few. It's like
asking Mary-Lou how the metal in her car engine
is made/machined and why which parts are as
big/thick/shaped as they are. The engineering
just gets deeper and deeper.
Likely the last CPU gurus are now instructing
AIs on how to carry on the craft before they
get too old and senile. The next-gen ... only
the AIs will "get it" - humans won't - and thus
it becomes "magic" like in the ancient days.
I just know I've still got one in the back
of a closet somewhere ... heavy glass base
you fill with oil/kero, metal wick assembly
with a nearly 1-inch wick, delicate glass
chimney you pop on top. They still sell 'em.
Amazed there weren't more fires back then.
Maybe people used to be careful.
Well, you were super-careful or EVERYONE DIED HORRIBLY.
Today's western youth never learn that discipline.
Oddly ... that old, long-abandoned, family house
burned down - because a storm blew a tree onto
the electric transformer !!!
Ow!
And a Great Irony too !!!
The place survived oil lamps and candles almost
100 years - only to be nuked by safe/modern
electricity.
Heh.
Great old house ... made of creosote saturated
heavy lumber harvested from the property. No
termite could eat it, no storm could push it over.
Isn't it smelly?
The smell goes away, in about 20 years :-)
But the house lasted, termite-free, for about
100 years. Might have made 200, except for that
sparky utility pole.
When the last relative living there died and the
property was going up for sale my Mom and I did
a last tour. One thing I did was slice off a bit
of the original wood, just a sliver. Have it
somewhere. So, symbolically ....
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 4/2/26 20:21, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 4/2/26 07:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 04:32, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 02:18, c186282 wrote:
On 2026-04-01 21:16, c186282 wrote:
Not too long before he died he asked me to explain
exactly how a CPU worked - and I found I could not
provide a low-level description. Still can't, have
no idea how instruction-fetch/decode/data-routing
works at the bare transistor level.
It is actually simple, but using gates, not transistors. Well,
transistors is one step further, each group form a gate. And a group >>>>>>> of gates form functions, like registers. It is overwhelming from >>>>>>> scratch, but if someone explains a function at a time, it becomes >>>>>>> "understandable". At least an old 8 bit CPU, like the 8085 or 6502. A >>>>>>> modern one is more steps in complexity.
I tried to study a 4004 ... but still couldn't
really assemble a mental model of how the needed
steps were done at the lowest level.
'Gates' are made from transistors. Those I get
just fine ... but how to build a CPU "machine"
out of them ............
You need somebody explaining it. Or a book that explains it. Trying to >>>>> study it doesn't work. It is complex, but there is a trick, a method of >>>>> explaining it and suddenly the mind does "click!" and you understand it >>>>> all.
Could never get the 'click' alas. The sheer complexity of
how even a 'simple' CPU works is daunting. Oh well, too
old now, I'll never get it. Can form an abstract picture,
but the silicon details ... nope .....
If you've no experience in the area, then trying to study a 4004 to
determine how a CPU works is still *way* too far up the complexity
curve to be able to easily grasp (absent a Herculean amount of effort).
Do you "get" how an assembly line (i.e., auto assembly line) works?
A loose (very loose) analagy is a CPU works somewhat like an auto
assembly line. Everything moves along a step at a time on the line in
unison to a clock pulse, and each stopping point on the "line" does
some small bit towards completion of the action called for by the
instruction. For this analogy the 'instructions' would be the cars
moving down the line.
I get it in the abstract ... but how to get transistors
to do it all click-click-click - sorry. The complexity
becomes daunting VERY fast.
If you have no experience in the area, agreed.
But if you do, the leap from transistors to simple clocked circuits
(and a CPU is simply a large clocked circuit) is not really that hard.
But, to get the leap between the two, you first have to understand how transistors can make logic gates (individual AND, OR, XOR gates) and
then how those logic gates can themselves (if viewed as the "atomic
element" in the system) be used to create flip-flops. Once you get
that much, then the flip-flop is extended a bit into a gated (or
clocked) flip-flop. Once you get there, then a CPU is really just (in
one manner of viewing it) a huge number of gated flip-flops all
marching to the same clock signal. The clocked flip-flop design is the secret behind how all the transistors do it click-clack-click.
This wikipedia page shows (in the first portions) some transistor level flip-flop designs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_(electronics)
and then transitions into logic gates as the smallest element of the internals of a flip-flop (consider each logic gate as being the same "transistor design" inside, i.e., all or gates being the same internal transistor design [which is not far from the truth with modern design software]). Then it adds gating to the basic flip-flops, and it is the gating that allows the "everything moves in reference to the clock
signal" part.
In reference, my old uncle wanted to know how it was done at the
transistor (or 'valve') level. If he was a bit younger he'd
probably have tried to make a CPU out of vacuum tubes :-)
He'd have had a *lot* of vacuum tubes, and the power draw and heat dissipation would have been huge, but for a really simple CPU, it can
be done.
Part of being able to understand it is being able to compartmentalize
the aspects. When looking at a bunch of clock synchronous gated
flip-flops you don't bother thinking about the internal logic gates
that make them up, you just have "gated flip-flops" as your smallest
"lego" piece. In the rare instance you need to worry about what's
going on inside one flip-flop, you look at its insides as logic gates
and don't think about the transistors that are inside. The layering of abstractions helps keep the overall complexity managable.
But, it isn't something easy to convey in a short explanation to one's elderly uncle.
On 4/2/26 14:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/04/2026 18:43, John Ames wrote:
The basics aren't really that complex; a Platonic CPU is just a state
machine sequencing the operation of an ALU and register file according
to a rules table, with some of its outputs directing the flow from one
state to another, and the clock latching the prior out-state to become
the in-state for the next operation, like a two-stroke engine.
while (!halt) {
state = rulesTable[state];
}
I looked at that, thought about it, and them realised that it is
exactly correct.
And is probably the neatest way of describing a Turing machine
Now start wiring up transistors to DO it.
NOT so clear and easy eh ?
You fetch instruction zero from the ROM *how* ?
You start decoding it *how* ?
You use the decode
to route more info here and there *how* ? I'm
talking WIRING here, hardware, how it's really done.
I may look into the 4004 again, but frankly I'm getting
too old to dive deep on this kind of stuff. I'll just
have to accept that CPUs work on magic smoke.
On 03/04/2026 08:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 22:46:18 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The fall-down point is that once there are too many broke people
there won't be anyone to buy yer products and services - doesn't
matter how cheap AI might make them.
Henry Ford wasn't the most educated person in the world but he understood
that. The capitalist system isn't some sort of perpetual motion machine.
Of course the alternative visions is neo feudalism where all the serfs
are replaced by robots and AIs. So the elite sit quaffing their Martinis while the machines do all the hard work and the plebs....do not even
exist any more. Having been sent to fight a pointless war. CF Russia.
On 03/04/2026 10:04, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> writes:And what are, in fact, 'minds' anyway :-)
"True" AI ... it will probably come from NN's, not LLMs.
My understanding is that the current crop are base on neural networks.
However LLMs can *fake* it well enough now to be worrisome.
They DO seem to have a sort of "self" in there, just not
OUR kind.
No, there isn’t. They are predictive models of language, not minds.
We could spend a whole evening and consume several units of alcohol discussing that one....
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 4/2/26 07:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 04:32, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 02:18, c186282 wrote:
On 2026-04-01 21:16, c186282 wrote:
Not too long before he died he asked me to explain
exactly how a CPU worked - and I found I could not
provide a low-level description. Still can't, have
no idea how instruction-fetch/decode/data-routing
works at the bare transistor level.
It is actually simple, but using gates, not transistors. Well,
transistors is one step further, each group form a gate. And a group >>>>> of gates form functions, like registers. It is overwhelming from
scratch, but if someone explains a function at a time, it becomes
"understandable". At least an old 8 bit CPU, like the 8085 or 6502. A >>>>> modern one is more steps in complexity.
I tried to study a 4004 ... but still couldn't
really assemble a mental model of how the needed
steps were done at the lowest level.
'Gates' are made from transistors. Those I get
just fine ... but how to build a CPU "machine"
out of them ............
You need somebody explaining it. Or a book that explains it. Trying to
study it doesn't work. It is complex, but there is a trick, a method of
explaining it and suddenly the mind does "click!" and you understand it
all.
Could never get the 'click' alas. The sheer complexity of
how even a 'simple' CPU works is daunting. Oh well, too
old now, I'll never get it. Can form an abstract picture,
but the silicon details ... nope .....
If you've no experience in the area, then trying to study a 4004 to
determine how a CPU works is still *way* too far up the complexity
curve to be able to easily grasp (absent a Herculean amount of effort).
Do you "get" how an assembly line (i.e., auto assembly line) works?
A loose (very loose) analagy is a CPU works somewhat like an auto
assembly line. Everything moves along a step at a time on the line in
unison to a clock pulse, and each stopping point on the "line" does
some small bit towards completion of the action called for by the instruction. For this analogy the 'instructions' would be the cars
moving down the line.
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:09:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I also am surprized by that lack of "<URL>" wrapping.
Generally too polite to say anything about it.
Pan sneers at your brackets. Maybe there is a setting someplace but I
never found it.
{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc
On 2026-04-02 19:33, c186282 wrote:
On 4/2/26 07:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 04:32, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 02:18, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 15:57, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-01 21:16, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 13:58, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-04-01, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
One gripe with most LEDs though is that they may START >>>>>>>>>> at 5K but soon 'warm up' to 4K or less. Maybe increasing >>>>>>>>>> use of 'quantum dots' will stabilize that ?
Oh well, I still have a few metal kerosene 'railroad lamps' >>>>>>>>>> with the wick like Farmer Brown would have owned. Hey, >>>>>>>>>> they always WORK ....
Yeah, but they come nowhere near 4K, let alone 5K.
More like 2K.
However when the power lines are down ...
Hmm ... my mother remembered when one of the
older brothers wired the family home with
electricity. Before then, 'oil lamps'.
A summer when I was about 9, we went to my mother village. They >>>>>>> had no running water at the homes, no toilet. We used the stable. >>>>>>> The house where we stayed had some electricity. They paid by the >>>>>>> number of bulbs. There was one in the main room, but I don't
remember about the bedrooms.
Well, Mom lived "on the farm" ... outhouse, hand-pumped
water. The brother (ugly guy but super-clever) wired the
whole house and then the electric company would connect.
He also apparently built their first radio from scrounged
parts, including a loudspeaker using an iron bar magnet
and glue-impregnated paper. I guess I kind of take after
him, though not QUITE as ugly :-)
I built a "headphone", from a kit. Basically a coil and a iron thin >>>>> sheet.
Uncle hand-wound the coil. That much he related.
Took a cardboard tube, kind of like what paper
towels come on, and soaked it in varnish to
make it rigid.
Dunno how he got everything symmetrical. Likely
wasn't a hi-fi radio, but good enough for voice.
Apparently there was a radio fix-it shop in
town and it had some left-over parts from
early 1920s models. He got the tubes and
likely transformers from there, one at a time.
Farmers and such didn't have lots of spare cash.
The village where my mother was born, had no water, almost no
electricity, and no cash, back in 1970. It was barter.
My tale was of the early 1930s, depression-era America.
Yes, but this village was simply backwards, progress had not reached
there. They had been that way maybe for centuries. I think there were
many in the early 70's here like that. Those people emigrated to cities,
and now the villages are empty and abandoned.
And there was a lot of barter. Cash was hard to come by.
My mother told an anecdote of some entertainer with puppets that went
around the villages. Kids wanted to see it but had no money, so they
gave him eggs. Till the man had so many eggs that he exploded and
said he wanted no more eggs! What could he do with dozens of eggs on
the road? Some colourful expression he would have said that I have
forgotten.
Not so unusual for people, entertainers, doctors, to
work for 'trade' in years past. If you didn't get cash
then at least you'd eat or someone would fix your roof
or whatever.
I wonder if they heard that "day which will live
in infamy" speech on that radio ?
Not too long before he died he asked me to explain
exactly how a CPU worked - and I found I could not
provide a low-level description. Still can't, have
no idea how instruction-fetch/decode/data-routing
works at the bare transistor level.
It is actually simple, but using gates, not transistors. Well,
transistors is one step further, each group form a gate. And a
group of gates form functions, like registers. It is overwhelming
from scratch, but if someone explains a function at a time, it
becomes "understandable". At least an old 8 bit CPU, like the 8085
or 6502. A modern one is more steps in complexity.
I tried to study a 4004 ... but still couldn't
really assemble a mental model of how the needed
steps were done at the lowest level.
'Gates' are made from transistors. Those I get
just fine ... but how to build a CPU "machine"
out of them ............
You need somebody explaining it. Or a book that explains it. Trying
to study it doesn't work. It is complex, but there is a trick, a
method of explaining it and suddenly the mind does "click!" and you
understand it all.
Could never get the 'click' alas. The sheer complexity of
how even a 'simple' CPU works is daunting. Oh well, too
old now, I'll never get it. Can form an abstract picture,
but the silicon details ... nope .....
As I say, on your own it is impossible unless you are a genius. You need somebody that understand them to do the explaining, slowly. Or a really
good book.
For me, it was a classroom at uni. I don't know if it was useful to somebody, though, we were never going to design one.
And I have forgotten most of it. I have the feeling, but I can not
explain any.
On 4/2/26 17:21, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 4/2/26 07:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 04:32, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 02:18, c186282 wrote:
On 2026-04-01 21:16, c186282 wrote:
Not too long before he died he asked me to explain
exactly how a CPU worked - and I found I could not
provide a low-level description. Still can't, have
no idea how instruction-fetch/decode/data-routing
works at the bare transistor level.
It is actually simple, but using gates, not transistors. Well,
transistors is one step further, each group form a gate. And a group >>>>>> of gates form functions, like registers. It is overwhelming from
scratch, but if someone explains a function at a time, it becomes
"understandable". At least an old 8 bit CPU, like the 8085 or 6502. A >>>>>> modern one is more steps in complexity.
I tried to study a 4004 ... but still couldn't
really assemble a mental model of how the needed
steps were done at the lowest level.
'Gates' are made from transistors. Those I get
just fine ... but how to build a CPU "machine"
out of them ............
You need somebody explaining it. Or a book that explains it. Trying to >>>> study it doesn't work. It is complex, but there is a trick, a method of >>>> explaining it and suddenly the mind does "click!" and you understand it >>>> all.
Could never get the 'click' alas. The sheer complexity of
how even a 'simple' CPU works is daunting. Oh well, too
old now, I'll never get it. Can form an abstract picture,
but the silicon details ... nope .....
If you've no experience in the area, then trying to study a 4004 to
determine how a CPU works is still *way* too far up the complexity
curve to be able to easily grasp (absent a Herculean amount of effort).
Do you "get" how an assembly line (i.e., auto assembly line) works?
A loose (very loose) analagy is a CPU works somewhat like an auto
assembly line. Everything moves along a step at a time on the line in
unison to a clock pulse, and each stopping point on the "line" does
some small bit towards completion of the action called for by the
instruction. For this analogy the 'instructions' would be the cars
moving down the line.
Somewhere around here I have a Japanese origin but translated
manga that discusses things digital from transistors thru gates.
If I ever find it again I will post the title. It is quite through.
How the fuck did they even get all the interconnects in 2-D ???
Alas you can't always get what you want.
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
The fall-down point is that once there are too many broke people
there won't be anyone to buy yer products and services - doesn't
matter how cheap AI might make them.
Henry Ford wasn't the most educated person in the world but he
understood that. The capitalist system isn't some sort of perpetual
motion machine.
For me, well, CPUs run on Magic Smoke for all intents.
I've seen some arcane ancient scrolls that supposedly explain the
magic, but I can't translate them.
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
If I send you a giant box of 2n222a's and a giant perf-board could
you just start doing all the wiring ?
With the free time to do so, yes, it's just a mechanical positioning exercise of replicating the same identical small sub-circuits over and
over across the perf board. The 'magic' is in knowing what "small sub-circuits" to replicate, and that comes from starting where you want
to be and slowly working your way down the abstraction layers.
In comp.os.linux.misc c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
How the fuck did they even get all the interconnects in 2-D ???
Alas you can't always get what you want.
That part is easy.
They didn't get all the interconnects in 2D.
The chip is actually 3D. Most of the interconnects reside in a layer (depending upon compexity, sometimes plural layers) above the doped
silicon that makes up the transistors and tiny "wires" (effectively)
reach down from that third dimension to connect the transistors
together.
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
On 2026-04-03, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
If I send you a giant box of 2n222a's and a giant perf-board could
you just start doing all the wiring ?
With the free time to do so, yes, it's just a mechanical positioning
exercise of replicating the same identical small sub-circuits over and
over across the perf board. The 'magic' is in knowing what "small
sub-circuits" to replicate, and that comes from starting where you want
to be and slowly working your way down the abstraction layers.
Sounds kind of like knitting...
On 4/2/26 23:31, rbowman wrote:Every-Day-is-Earth-Day>
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:09:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I also am surprized by that lack of "<URL>" wrapping.
Generally too polite to say anything about it.
Pan sneers at your brackets. Maybe there is a setting someplace but I
never found it.
It is not a setting but a choice by the poster.
put down <> when you want to post a URL then copy it between < and >.
It is a very minor exertion.
But it is Earth Day once more... <https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/4/3/2376185/-Cartoon-Cut-ups-
On 03/04/2026 09:56, Ross Clark wrote:
So I guess that what happened in fiction is based on fact,Twain's "Life on the Mississippi" includes a harrowing description of a
steamboat boiler explosion; his own brother was killed in such an
accident.
Wow, I haven't read that. Thank you.
On 02/04/2026 21:28, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 11:20:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
FWD is very easy to drive quiet fast, but a skilled driver and RWD is
faster (mostly).
If I were younger I'd but a Toyota GR86 for the old feeling. My pickup
is RWD but hardly anything you'd want to throw around corners.
Do you *have* corners in Montana?
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation. Endless pages
of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff, nothing at the base wiring
level - explanations rather than construction schematics.
Janet <nobody@home.com> posted:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,I agree. The British term for hazing was ragging. It didn't happen at Oxford >in my time (19611967), not at Wadham, anyway; at least, I never heard that >it did. My sister never reported anything of that sort at St. Andrews. However,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
it did occur in some other universities.
On 4/3/26 08:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc
On 2026-04-02 19:33, c186282 wrote:
On 4/2/26 07:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 04:32, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 02:18, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 15:57, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-01 21:16, c186282 wrote:
On 4/1/26 13:58, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-04-01, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
One gripe with most LEDs though is that they may START >>>>>>>>>>> at 5K but soon 'warm up' to 4K or less. Maybe increasing >>>>>>>>>>> use of 'quantum dots' will stabilize that ?
Oh well, I still have a few metal kerosene 'railroad lamps' >>>>>>>>>>> with the wick like Farmer Brown would have owned. Hey, >>>>>>>>>>> they always WORK ....
Yeah, but they come nowhere near 4K, let alone 5K.
More like 2K.
However when the power lines are down ...
Hmm ... my mother remembered when one of the
older brothers wired the family home with
electricity. Before then, 'oil lamps'.
A summer when I was about 9, we went to my mother village. They >>>>>>>> had no running water at the homes, no toilet. We used the
stable. The house where we stayed had some electricity. They
paid by the number of bulbs. There was one in the main room, but >>>>>>>> I don't remember about the bedrooms.
Well, Mom lived "on the farm" ... outhouse, hand-pumped
water. The brother (ugly guy but super-clever) wired the
whole house and then the electric company would connect.
He also apparently built their first radio from scrounged
parts, including a loudspeaker using an iron bar magnet
and glue-impregnated paper. I guess I kind of take after
him, though not QUITE as ugly :-)
I built a "headphone", from a kit. Basically a coil and a iron
thin sheet.
Uncle hand-wound the coil. That much he related.
Took a cardboard tube, kind of like what paper
towels come on, and soaked it in varnish to
make it rigid.
Dunno how he got everything symmetrical. Likely
wasn't a hi-fi radio, but good enough for voice.
Apparently there was a radio fix-it shop in
town and it had some left-over parts from
early 1920s models. He got the tubes and
likely transformers from there, one at a time.
Farmers and such didn't have lots of spare cash.
The village where my mother was born, had no water, almost no
electricity, and no cash, back in 1970. It was barter.
My tale was of the early 1930s, depression-era America.
Yes, but this village was simply backwards, progress had not reached
there. They had been that way maybe for centuries. I think there were
many in the early 70's here like that. Those people emigrated to
cities, and now the villages are empty and abandoned.
The obsession with "being modern" is maybe more
of a USA thing ? We're a 'novelty' society, keen
on the latest neat-o gadgets and methods. There
are positives, and some negatives, to that.
And there was a lot of barter. Cash was hard to come by.
My mother told an anecdote of some entertainer with puppets that
went around the villages. Kids wanted to see it but had no money, so
they gave him eggs. Till the man had so many eggs that he exploded
and said he wanted no more eggs! What could he do with dozens of
eggs on the road? Some colourful expression he would have said that
I have forgotten.
Not so unusual for people, entertainers, doctors, to
work for 'trade' in years past. If you didn't get cash
then at least you'd eat or someone would fix your roof
or whatever.
I wonder if they heard that "day which will live
in infamy" speech on that radio ?
Not too long before he died he asked me to explain
exactly how a CPU worked - and I found I could not
provide a low-level description. Still can't, have
no idea how instruction-fetch/decode/data-routing
works at the bare transistor level.
It is actually simple, but using gates, not transistors. Well,
transistors is one step further, each group form a gate. And a
group of gates form functions, like registers. It is overwhelming >>>>>> from scratch, but if someone explains a function at a time, it
becomes "understandable". At least an old 8 bit CPU, like the 8085 >>>>>> or 6502. A modern one is more steps in complexity.
I tried to study a 4004 ... but still couldn't
really assemble a mental model of how the needed
steps were done at the lowest level.
'Gates' are made from transistors. Those I get
just fine ... but how to build a CPU "machine"
out of them ............
You need somebody explaining it. Or a book that explains it. Trying
to study it doesn't work. It is complex, but there is a trick, a
method of explaining it and suddenly the mind does "click!" and you
understand it all.
Could never get the 'click' alas. The sheer complexity of
how even a 'simple' CPU works is daunting. Oh well, too
old now, I'll never get it. Can form an abstract picture,
but the silicon details ... nope .....
As I say, on your own it is impossible unless you are a genius. You
need somebody that understand them to do the explaining, slowly. Or a
really good book.
For me, it was a classroom at uni. I don't know if it was useful to
somebody, though, we were never going to design one.
And I have forgotten most of it. I have the feeling, but I can not
explain any.
Well, if you 'get it' then great ... but remember you're
the one-in-ten-million.
For me, well, CPUs run on Magic Smoke for all intents.
I've seen some arcane ancient scrolls that supposedly
explain the magic, but I can't translate them.
No "click" ... oh well. I don't have to know all the
equations and design for a 20-megawatt electrical
generator either - but so long as the lights come on ...
But I'd LIKE to know how at least a 4004 or 8008
work at the transistor level. How the fuck did they
even get all the interconnects in 2-D ??? Alas you
can't always get what you want.
Now given some time, I could probably WRITE a CPU
emulator using emulated gates ... maybe that should
be my approach ? Same prob, different angle of attack.
That could "click".
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 12:27:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/04/2026 09:56, Ross Clark wrote:
So I guess that what happened in fiction is based on fact,Twain's "Life on the Mississippi" includes a harrowing description of a
steamboat boiler explosion; his own brother was killed in such an
accident.
Wow, I haven't read that. Thank you.
In some cases the explosions were caused when two vessels were racing and tied down the safety blow-off valves.
{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc
On 2026-04-03 21:17, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 12:27:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/04/2026 09:56, Ross Clark wrote:
So I guess that what happened in fiction is based on fact,Twain's "Life on the Mississippi" includes a harrowing description of a >>>> steamboat boiler explosion; his own brother was killed in such an
accident.
Wow, I haven't read that. Thank you.
In some cases the explosions were caused when two vessels were racing and
tied down the safety blow-off valves.
This happens in some of the Jules Verne novels. Put a weight on the
valve. Apparently, if not actually designed for this, those valves had a design that made overloading easy. Maybe the idea was "today the maximum pressure will be X", because actually keeping the boiler at a certain constant pressure is difficult.
On 2026-04-03 20:47, c186282 wrote:
...
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
Because that is another step. Possibly even different people.
Oneathesedays I'll sit down and study it properly, but I'm still
getting my head around *analog* circuits o_O
Digital is a piece of cake compared to analog when it drifts off to imaginary number land.
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:56:18 -0400
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Now how do you wire up transistors to mechanically DO all that ? If
I send you a giant box of 2n222a's and a giant perf-board could you
just start doing all the wiring ?
Some time back I did see an article about a guy who built a Z-80 from
discrete components - took up three walls of his house. I guess HE
knew how to put it all together, but .......
Yeah, not being an EE that's where my understanding starts to break
down. I know how flip-flops and latches work on a logic level, and I
have a rough knowledge of how transistors work, but the exact nitty-
gritty of digital circuity sits right at the intersection of the two
domains and is all tied up in both. Bit like hearing my medically-
inclined family members talk about biochemistry...
The road outside house (in Westville, near Durban, where I lived until
the age of 7) was gravel. Now and then the council sent a grade,
pulled by a tracked tractor (like a bulldoxer without the blade). When
the workmen knocked off they would leave the grader at the side of the
road and we kids would play on it, spinning the wheels to make the
blade of up and down and so on. When the grader was done the
steamroller would come chugging along to compact the soil.
On 02/04/2026 21:11, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 12:05:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Actually the Fiat Punto was one of the best handling hatchbacks of its
British sports cars and British and German luxury brands were all that
ever made it over., And VW bugs for some reason.
Fiat is still trying. I see one of the new 500s around town. After my
short fling with a Spider I have no interest in Fiats. Italian body
designs are great, engineering not so great.
time, for the first two years before it rusted away.
They are very good designs but made out of metaqllised toilet paper, so
very light but they simply did not last.
SEAT in Spain are similarly excellent little handling cars - they do a
nice little 3 cylinder econobox that you can throw around corners in
perfect safety.
You need a car that handles well on those Mediterranean roads - all
hairpins and hills.
French cars have suspension designed for execrable French roads.
German roads are ultra smooth, German cars don't do bumps at all.
On 02/04/2026 13:38, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-02 04:02, rbowman wrote:I bought one about 2015, The battery was replaceable but it stopped
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 15:57:50 +0200, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I have one like that. Once every three times it refuses to go
on. Taking out the batteries and putting them back again will
cure it.
We must have the same one! Take out the batteries, put the same
ones back in, and you can use it. Next time, rinse and repeat.
I have an electronic bathroom scale where I remove the battery
after use. Not the same problem but it sucks batteries dry
sitting there. I think the household appliance industry needs
some good embedded systems designers/ programmers.
I bought my bathroom scale on year 2000. The battery is non
replaceable, and it is still running.
working
Originally the surface was glass, but one day I accidentally
kicked it against the pedestal of the wash basin and it shattered.
I cut a wood surface to shape, and it works fine.
Brand is Korona. Similar to this one:
<https://www.amazon.es/-/en/Korona-Gabriela-Bathroom-Intervals-
Transparent/dp/B0031RGCJC>
Wow, says delivery in six months.
Well I gave up on digital and battery crap.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402105829520
Cheap too
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 15:13:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/04/2026 07:57, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 12:16:57 +1300, Ross Clark wrote:
What interests me is that while the word "marjoram" goes back to late
Middle English, "oregano" does not appear in English until the end of
the 19th century. What happened around that time that seemed to
require a new term?
Italian cooking? Cilantro wasn't in my vocabulary when I was a kid and
you wouldn't find it in a market where I grew up. We used coriander
seeds in pickles. I think most of the world calls the green plant
coriander also but they don't have a heavy Hispanic population.
I learnt cilantro when asking a waitress in Mexico what the salsa was
made of.
Chopped red onion, tomato, chilli, with lime juice and 'cilantro' .
If I ever want to make anything remotely Mexican guess what goes on my
shopping list.
You're one of those. There is some genetic thing where a good portion of people think cilantro tastes like soap. It's like the genetic thing with asparagus.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-asparagus-makes-your- urine-smell-49961252/
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 11:52:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I would love to see one of these old boats in a museum, but I fear I
never will
<https://www.cruisingthemightymississippi.org/american-queen/>
I've been on a paddlewheel but it was diesel powered. I think this is the last steam powered one in operation.
It happens. Companies try to transition from one era to the next and
succeed or fail in the attempt.
Hewlett Packard?
I tgi8njk te basic ARM was designed in about a year by a team ofd 6 or
so.
But its all there in the archives. Likewise read Tracy Kidders 'soul of
a new nachine' describing how they designed a minicomputer back in the
70s.
I don't think hazing beneficially contributed to my life experience, but
-
then - I don't think it contribitued non-beneficially, either. It was
just the way things were at the time.
The Titanic was also trying to beat a time record ...
I remember seeing steamrollers working in my postwar early childhood.
We certainly had machines we called *steamrollers* in the same period of mine. But I don't think that they were powered by steam engines.
We called some things "steam" shovels but I doubt any of the
big powered shovels of my childhood were in fact powered by steam.
For steam you have to have an engineer in charge of the power-plant
which is more expensive than someone running and IC powered
shovel.
On 02/04/2026 21:11, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 12:05:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
British sports cars and British and German luxury brands were all that
ever made it over., And VW bugs for some reason.
Fiat is still trying. I see one of the new 500s around town. After my
short fling with a Spider I have no interest in Fiats. Italian body
designs are great, engineering not so great.
Actually the Fiat Punto was one of the best handling hatchbacks of its
time, for the first two years before it rusted away.
They are very good designs but made out of metaqllised toilet paper, so
very light but they simply did not last. [...]
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >> >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >> >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
On 03/04/2026 08:41, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> posted:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 12:09:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
My sister 10,000 miles way is probably the last person who would both
give a shit and be able to do anything.
My ex is about 2000 miles away and I've arranged that she be notified of >> my demise but there is nothing she could do.
My ex is 9500 km (5900 miles) away, but her successor is 2 m away
at this moment.
I have absolutely no idea where my Ex is and I could not care less.
On 4/2/26 23:31, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:09:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I also am surprized by that lack of "<URL>" wrapping.
Generally too polite to say anything about it.
Pan sneers at your brackets. Maybe there is a setting someplace but I never found it.
It is not a setting but a choice by the poster.
put down <> when you want to post a URL then copy
it between < and >.
It is a very minor exertion.
But it is Earth Day once more... <https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/4/3/2376185/-Cartoon-Cut-ups-Every-Day-is-Earth-Day>
bliss
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 11:06:28 -0400, c186282 wrote:
For me, well, CPUs run on Magic Smoke for all intents.
I've seen some arcane ancient scrolls that supposedly explain the
magic, but I can't translate them.
Before writing a line of FORTRAN IV we spent some time examining the
anatomy of the System 360. It wasn't down to the transistor level but we understood what core was when it was real core. Way before VLSI the blocks and interconnections were easier to define. They were easier to see, also, considering the early disk drives resembled washing machines.
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 14:47:24 -0400
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation. Endless pages
of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff, nothing at the base wiring
level - explanations rather than construction schematics.
It's hard to find an accessible generalist course on the topic, since
it's so niche, but you might take a look at Bill Buzbee's Magic-1 - https://www.homebrewcpu.com/ - which does have schematics and a write-
up on the microarchitecture, although like most of these projects he's
taking things from the logic level up and not digging too much into the nitty-gritty at the borderline of the analog & digital domains.
https://www.nand2tetris.org/book is one I'm still reading through; it's
very accessible, but even hand-wavier on the "magic," unfortunately.
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 16:25:55 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The Titanic was also trying to beat a time record ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1943_film)
Complete propaganda or a little closer to reality than other stories?
On 4/3/26 15:57, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 14:47:24 -0400
It's hard to find an accessible generalist course on the topic,
since it's so niche, but you might take a look at Bill Buzbee's
Magic-1 - https://www.homebrewcpu.com/ - which does have schematics
and a write- up on the microarchitecture, although like most of
these projects he's taking things from the logic level up and not
digging too much into the nitty-gritty at the borderline of the
analog & digital domains.
Found the page.
Wow - so MANY wires ! :-)
Now how the hell did Fagin hold all that in his brain for the 4004
???
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>> >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>> >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
Seems to be a good site though, I'll keep going through it.
On 4/3/26 13:54, rbowman wrote:we
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 11:06:28 -0400, c186282 wrote:
For me, well, CPUs run on Magic Smoke for all intents.
I've seen some arcane ancient scrolls that supposedly explain the
magic, but I can't translate them.
Before writing a line of FORTRAN IV we spent some time examining the
anatomy of the System 360. It wasn't down to the transistor level but
blocksunderstood what core was when it was real core. Way before VLSI the
also,and interconnections were easier to define. They were easier to see,
considering the early disk drives resembled washing machines.
I just went straight to the FORTRAN ... didn't
care what made it work :-)
Damned punch cards !
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>> >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>> >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
On 4/3/26 08:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
The road outside house (in Westville, near Durban, where I lived until
the age of 7) was gravel. Now and then the council sent a grade,
pulled by a tracked tractor (like a bulldoxer without the blade). When
the workmen knocked off they would leave the grader at the side of the
road and we kids would play on it, spinning the wheels to make the
blade of up and down and so on. When the grader was done the
steamroller would come chugging along to compact the soil.
The oldest ones DID run on steam ... and sometimes
passed the exhaust through the giant roller because
a hot roller did a better job. However big diesel
engines quickly came along.
Still amazed how smooth they can make a roadway just
by rolling those things back and forth.
On 4/3/26 16:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 20:47, c186282 wrote:
...
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
Because that is another step. Possibly even different people.
Didn't find any, even going four or five
pages in and trying to customize the search
params a few times.
The info is there SOMEWHERE ... but WHERE ???
Or do they want you to buy a $150 book ?
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 4/3/26 08:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
The road outside house (in Westville, near Durban, where I lived until
the age of 7) was gravel. Now and then the council sent a grade,
pulled by a tracked tractor (like a bulldoxer without the blade). When
the workmen knocked off they would leave the grader at the side of the
road and we kids would play on it, spinning the wheels to make the
blade of up and down and so on. When the grader was done the
steamroller would come chugging along to compact the soil.
The oldest ones DID run on steam ... and sometimes
passed the exhaust through the giant roller because
a hot roller did a better job. However big diesel
engines quickly came along.
Still amazed how smooth they can make a roadway just
by rolling those things back and forth.
Laser-controlled, these days,
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>>>>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>>>>> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>>>> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>>>> In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with "hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 4/2/26 23:31, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:09:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I also am surprized by that lack of "<URL>" wrapping.
Generally too polite to say anything about it.
Pan sneers at your brackets. Maybe there is a setting someplace but I
never found it.
It is not a setting but a choice by the poster.
put down <> when you want to post a URL then copy
it between < and >.
It is a very minor exertion.
But it is Earth Day once more...
<https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/4/3/2376185/-Cartoon-Cut-ups-Every-Day-is-Earth-Day>
bliss
I do agree.
Lack of proper URL delimiters is a pet hate of mine; I'll even go so
far as to add delimiters to quoted URLs if they're missing. If they're present, long URLs can even be broken across multiple lines and still
work.
But it is Earth Day once more... <https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/4/3/2376185/-Cartoon-Cut-ups- Every-Day-is-Earth-Day>----------------------++-
A particular gripe is Wiki URLs ending in a right parenthesis, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
That is unclickable here because my 'reader, on finding ')' at the end, expects there to be a paired '(' at the beginning. If the whole URL
is properly delimited with e.g. the recommended* '<angle brackets>'
thus:-
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)>
- it's clickable.
* Other delimiters are acceptable, e.g.: (parentheses); {braces};
[square brackets]; <angle brackets>; "double quotes"; or even
white-space if it's the same kind of white-space at each end.
It's described in:
<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>
Here endeth the rant.
Janet <nobody@home.com> posted:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,I agree. The British term for hazing was ragging. It didn't happen at Oxford in my time (1961–1967), not at Wadham, anyway; at least, I never heard that it did. My sister never reported anything of that sort at St. Andrews. However,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>>>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>>>> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>>> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>>> In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
it did occur in some other universities.
I just went straight to the FORTRAN ... didn'tIn an engineering school it's assumed you want to know how things work.
care what made it work 🙂
Damned punch cards !
Do you*have* corners in Montana?Western Montana is mountainous, so yes. Going east it gets damn boring
after Bozeman. For added excitement the roads that have corners also tend
to have deer, elk, bears, and other wildlife lounging in the middle of the road.
The design was done on the block level. Here goes a register, for
instance. When all is done, next step is replace the blocks with the
gates components. Another step, replace with the transistors. Finally, design the silicon.
Lack of proper URL delimiters is a pet hate of mine; I'll even go so
far as to add delimiters to quoted URLs if they're missing. If they're present, long URLs can even be broken across multiple lines and still
work.
A particular gripe is Wiki URLs ending in a right parenthesis, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
That is unclickable here because my 'reader, on finding ')' at the end, expects there to be a paired '(' at the beginning. If the whole URL
is properly delimited with e.g. the recommended* '<angle brackets>'
thus:-
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)>
- it's clickable.
* Other delimiters are acceptable, e.g.: (parentheses); {braces};
[square brackets]; <angle brackets>; "double quotes"; or even
white-space if it's the same kind of white-space at each end.
It's described in:
<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >>>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>to that American activity. He was probably talking about the >>>different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with "hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 22:29:17 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 4/3/26 13:54, rbowman wrote:
Before writing a line of FORTRAN IV we spent some time examining
the anatomy of the System 360. It wasn't down to the transistor
level but we understood what core was when it was real core. Way
before VLSI the blocks and interconnections were easier to define.
They were easier to see, also, considering the early disk drives
resembled washing machines.
I just went straight to the FORTRAN ... didn't care what made it
work :-)
Damned punch cards !
In an engineering school it's assumed you want to know how things
work.
On 03/04/2026 20:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The design was done on the block level. Here goes a register, for
instance. When all is done, next step is replace the blocks with the
gates components. Another step, replace with the transistors. Finally,
design the silicon.
That part is mostly automated.
The design tools the chip fab people give you include software to allow block arrangements to be defined I think and then the software
constructs the silicon patterns and calculates delay times and so on.
In short almost no one designs at the transistor level at all, its all 'compiled' hardware.
snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
Lack of proper URL delimiters is a pet hate of mine; I'll even go so
far as to add delimiters to quoted URLs if they're missing. If they're present, long URLs can even be broken across multiple lines and still
work.
A particular gripe is Wiki URLs ending in a right parenthesis, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
That is unclickable here because my 'reader, on finding ')' at the end, expects there to be a paired '(' at the beginning. If the whole URL
is properly delimited with e.g. the recommended* '<angle brackets>'
thus:-
That’s a bug in how your newsreader recognizes URLs.
Working around bugs in other people’s newsreaders may be a kind thing to do, but let’s not pretend it’s mandated by any kind of standards compliance, nor that other people can reasonably be expected to remember
what bugs your newsreader has.
All of the following fit the RFC3896 recommendation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)"
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation) also.
snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
Lack of proper URL delimiters is a pet hate of mine; I'll even go so
far as to add delimiters to quoted URLs if they're missing. If they're present, long URLs can even be broken across multiple lines and still
work.
A particular gripe is Wiki URLs ending in a right parenthesis, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
That is unclickable here because my 'reader, on finding ')' at the end, expects there to be a paired '(' at the beginning. If the whole URL
is properly delimited with e.g. the recommended* '<angle brackets>'
thus:-
That's a bug in how your newsreader recognizes URLs.
Working around bugs in other people's newsreaders may be a kind thing to
do, but let's not pretend it's mandated by any kind of standards
compliance, nor that other people can reasonably be expected to remember
what bugs your newsreader has.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)>
- it's clickable.
* Other delimiters are acceptable, e.g.: (parentheses); {braces};
[square brackets]; <angle brackets>; "double quotes"; or even
white-space if it's the same kind of white-space at each end.
It's described in:
<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>
...which says:fails
| In practice, URIs are delimited in a variety of ways, but usually
| within double-quotes "http://example.com/", angle brackets
| <http://example.com/>, or just by using whitespace:
There is nothing in there about the whitespace being the same at each
end, and indeed the example given in the RFC doesn't meet that, with
space before and a line break after.
All of the following fit the RFC3896 recommendation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)fails
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)>works
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)"works
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)fails
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation) also.fails
The following don't:works
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)>
TextIncludinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)AUrl.fails
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation).fails
The first is explicitly 'no longer recommended'; the second is not
delimited in any recognized way at all; the third is delimited only at
one end (since '.' is a valid character in a URL path).
While the RFC doesn't explicitly state that delimiters must appear at
both ends, I think it's obviously the intent, given the reference to 'wrappers' and the motivation of delimiting the URL from the rest of the
text including, in particular, punctuation marks.
So it's either a failing in MacSOUP or a weakness in the RFC spec.
As MacSOUP comes from very early days of Usenet, perhaps it was
written to comply with an earlier RFC. The above shows that it is
perfectly happy with URLs that are explicitly delimited at both ends.
It would be interesting to know how other 'readers perform with
these examples.
As MacSOUP comes from very early days of Usenet, perhaps it was
written to comply with an earlier RFC. The above shows that it is
perfectly happy with URLs that are explicitly delimited at both ends.
In article <1rt1toc.6x3nk0o459zkN%snipeco.2@gmail.com>,When you consider the days of Usenet to be 'early' depends on when you
Sn!pe <snipeco.1@gmail.com> wrote:
As MacSOUP comes from very early days of Usenet, perhaps it was
written to comply with an earlier RFC. The above shows that it is
perfectly happy with URLs that are explicitly delimited at both ends.
The very early days of Usenet were long before URLs or Macs existed!
Perhaps you mean from the early days of URLs?
-- Richard
In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/04/2026 20:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The design was done on the block level. Here goes a register, for
instance. When all is done, next step is replace the blocks with the
gates components. Another step, replace with the transistors. Finally,
design the silicon.
That part is mostly automated.
The design tools the chip fab people give you include software to allow
block arrangements to be defined I think and then the software
constructs the silicon patterns and calculates delay times and so on.
In short almost no one designs at the transistor level at all, its all
'compiled' hardware.
For modern hardware, yes. It is almost all VHDL (a programming
language for hardware design) or the like, the designer writes code to describe the function, and the VHDL compiler handles most all the nitty gritty details of how to arrange things on the physical chip to get
that desired function.
For anchient stuff (4004, 8008, 6502) it was almost all direct "hands
on", but not in the way that c282724 appears to have have understood
from how their posts are written. Even if doing it all by hand, the designers didn't keep "all the individual transistors in mind" at once.
The designs were still "chunked" into functional pieces (so one could
ignore what was going on inside that black box) to keep the total
complexity managable.
The only time "all the transistors" might even have been considered was
when they go to actually laying out the photomasks by hand on rubylith
and even then they very likely only worried about a small area of the rubylith layout at a time and just worked their way along.
On 02/04/2026 03:12, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 16:24:07 +0100, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 15:23:57 +0100 The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 01/04/2026 14:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:You seem to be insensitive in this regard. Hope it all works out for
Den 31.03.2026 kl. 00.24 skrev Peter Moylan:By that time one is beyond considering the feelings of others
If one time I don't wake up ... well, that's an easy way to go.
Only if you are sure to be found soon.
your nearest and dearest.
Fresh out of nearest and dearest. I have problems with forms that ask for >> someone to notify in an emergency. 911 is the best I can do.
Same here. Only relative left in the country is miles away with a wife
and kids and not enough money.
My sister 10,000 miles way is probably the last person who would both
give a shit and be able to do anything.
snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
All of the following fit the RFC3896 recommendation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)"
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation) also.
The following don’t:
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)>
TextIncludinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)AUrl.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation).
{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc
On 2026-04-04 11:07, J. J. Lodder wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 4/3/26 08:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
The road outside house (in Westville, near Durban, where I lived until >>>> the age of 7) was gravel. Now and then the council sent a grade,
pulled by a tracked tractor (like a bulldoxer without the blade). When >>>> the workmen knocked off they would leave the grader at the side of the >>>> road and we kids would play on it, spinning the wheels to make the
blade of up and down and so on. When the grader was done the
steamroller would come chugging along to compact the soil.
The oldest ones DID run on steam ... and sometimes
passed the exhaust through the giant roller because
a hot roller did a better job. However big diesel
engines quickly came along.
Still amazed how smooth they can make a roadway just
by rolling those things back and forth.
Laser-controlled, these days,
If you pass the roller and the laser detects it is off, what do you, add more stuff? I can see that when the machine that is pouring the stuff passes, but not when the roller passes.
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 12:09:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 02/04/2026 03:12, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 16:24:07 +0100, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 15:23:57 +0100 The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 01/04/2026 14:47, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:You seem to be insensitive in this regard. Hope it all works out for
Den 31.03.2026 kl. 00.24 skrev Peter Moylan:By that time one is beyond considering the feelings of others
If one time I don't wake up ... well, that's an easy way to go.
Only if you are sure to be found soon.
your nearest and dearest.
Fresh out of nearest and dearest. I have problems with forms that ask for >> someone to notify in an emergency. 911 is the best I can do.
Same here. Only relative left in the country is miles away with a wife
and kids and not enough money.
My sister 10,000 miles way is probably the last person who would both
give a shit and be able to do anything.
Okay, we old guys posting do not have much support around. I
suppose that was in my mind when I read this obituary in yesterday's
NY Times --
Heisuke Hironaka, 94, Fields Medalist and Smoother of Math's
Singularities
He died on March 18. There's 20 column inches of achievements,
honors, etc., before getting to: The people he is 'survived by'
includes (of his own generation) his wife, four sisters, and two
brothers. The text leaves me unsure, but I think that he was
pre-deceased by one of his three children.
I've read before that studies of historical records generally show
that 'genetics' does not play much role in living to old ages. This
looks like a family whose DNA might give clues to the opposite
conclusion. I do not recall hearing before of a 94-year old leaving
behind six siblings.
On 04/04/2026 05:58, rbowman wrote:
I just went straight to the FORTRAN ... didn't
care what made it work 🙂
Damned punch cards !
In an engineering school it's assumed you want to know how things work.
Oddly, I learnt FORTRAN BEFORE university on my 'year in industry' thing.
No reference to hardware was made. That I learnt at university.
Some fa
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 22:29:17 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 4/3/26 13:54, rbowman wrote:we
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 11:06:28 -0400, c186282 wrote:
For me, well, CPUs run on Magic Smoke for all intents.
I've seen some arcane ancient scrolls that supposedly explain the >>>> magic, but I can't translate them.
Before writing a line of FORTRAN IV we spent some time examining the
anatomy of the System 360. It wasn't down to the transistor level but
blocksunderstood what core was when it was real core. Way before VLSI the
also,and interconnections were easier to define. They were easier to see,
considering the early disk drives resembled washing machines.
I just went straight to the FORTRAN ... didn't
care what made it work :-)
Damned punch cards !
In an engineering school it's assumed you want to know how things work.
Janet <nobody@home.com> posted:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I agree. The British term for hazing was ragging. It didn't happen at Oxford in my time (1961?1967), not at Wadham, anyway; at least, I never heard that it did. My sister never reported anything of that sort at St. Andrews. However,
it did occur in some other universities. =
On 2026-04-03 22:29, c186282 wrote:
On 4/3/26 16:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 20:47, c186282 wrote:
...
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
Because that is another step. Possibly even different people.
Didn't find any, even going four or five
pages in and trying to customize the search
params a few times.
The info is there SOMEWHERE ... but WHERE ???
Or do they want you to buy a $150 book ?
Possibly. What I learned was in an UNI course, it was not in a book. In fact, I think they used an imaginary CPU that does not exist, so no
books at all except class notes. I don't remember if there was some self published book (photocopied).
He died on March 18. There's 20 column inches of achievements,
honors, etc., before getting to: The people he is 'survived by'
includes (of his own generation) his wife, four sisters, and two
brothers. The text leaves me unsure, but I think that he was
pre-deceased by one of his three children.
I've read before that studies of historical records generally show
that 'genetics' does not play much role in living to old ages. This
looks like a family whose DNA might give clues to the opposite
conclusion. I do not recall hearing before of a 94-year old leaving
behind six siblings.
And that drawing was probably made by hand, too. The PC did not exist.
On 04/04/2026 05:58, rbowman wrote:
I just went straight to the FORTRAN ... didn'tIn an engineering school it's assumed you want to know how things work.
care what made it work 🙂
Damned punch cards !
Oddly, I learnt FORTRAN BEFORE university on my 'year in industry'
thing.
No reference to hardware was made. That I learnt at university.
No real ref to the hardware or how it worked on a low level was
taught to me either. You wrote FORTRAN for the Magic Box and it did
what you told it to do.
I was interested in computers before so I knew more about the
hardware than most, but for many it really was just the Magic Box.
I think I saw a sort of all-in-one machine once, towed behind a huge
truck full of asphalt mix. It kinda sorta "3-D prints" an even depth
and then there are a couple of heavy rollers in the back.
In article <1775242700-12588@newsgrouper.org>, athel.cb@gmail.com
says...
Janet <nobody@home.com> posted:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,I agree. The British term for hazing was ragging. It didn't happen at Oxford >> in my time (1961?1967), not at Wadham, anyway; at least, I never heard that >> it did. My sister never reported anything of that sort at St. Andrews. However,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>>>>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>>>>> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>>>> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>>>> In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>> to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
it did occur in some other universities. =
We had Rag Week, nothing to do with US hazing.
Kipling was writing abour English Public schools; not universities.
Janet
On 4/4/26 07:20, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 22:29, c186282 wrote:
On 4/3/26 16:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 20:47, c186282 wrote:
...
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
Because that is another step. Possibly even different people.
Didn't find any, even going four or five
pages in and trying to customize the search
params a few times.
The info is there SOMEWHERE ... but WHERE ???
Or do they want you to buy a $150 book ?
Possibly. What I learned was in an UNI course, it was not in a book.
In fact, I think they used an imaginary CPU that does not exist, so no
books at all except class notes. I don't remember if there was some
self published book (photocopied).
Someone who CAN should put together a simple
animation ... show those registers loading
at the bit level, the mem fetch, the decode,
the data store, what's wired to what with a
few-sentence comment for each stage. A 4-bit
example would be clearer.
Sometime, maybe soon, humans won't know how
to do this stuff anymore - it'll all be the
AIs ... and then it all becomes 'magic'.
Interesting eh ... we only pulled ourselves out
of a Magical Universe a few hundred years ago
and now we're headed back :-)
What IS the proper sacrifice to the Regional
Utility Manager AI ?
On 2026-04-04 09:52, Nuno Silva wrote:
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to
alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>>>>>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The >>>>>>> Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>>>>> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the
older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual
element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>> to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with
"hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for
orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
When I was at Uni in Madrid, at the Uni itself there was none. The
studies were terrifying, no need to add more pain.
However, at the halls of residence (DeepL says that is the translation
for "Colegio Mayor") it was a different story. At mine it was very mild.
At others it was much worse.
In comp.os.linux.misc Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>> to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with
"hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for
orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
It is likely the "social clique" version of the "five monkeys
experiment" <https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction>
from business/government that is often used to explain how some long
outdated process continues to remain "the policy". Because "that is
the way it has always been done", even though no one doing the process,
nor no one mandating the process as policy, remembers why the process
was done in the way it is done.
The current "social clique" members had to undergo the torture to gain
their status as "in" members of the clique, so therefore all new
entrants have to also undergo the same torture the current "in" members underwent in order for the new entrants to prove their worthiness for inclusion in the clique. I.e., "because we have always done it that
way".
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 13:46:37 -0400, c186282 wrote:
No real ref to the hardware or how it worked on a low level was
taught to me either. You wrote FORTRAN for the Magic Box and it did
what you told it to do.
I was interested in computers before so I knew more about the
hardware than most, but for many it really was just the Magic Box.
They were very proud of their new 360/30 and made sure everyone knew about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30
The school had close ties with IBM and may have been partially gifted with it. Teach them IBM young... That scheme is time honored. Apple's Neo with its education discounts didn't dream it up yesterday.
...
On 2026-04-04, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 13:46:37 -0400, c186282 wrote:
No real ref to the hardware or how it worked on a low level was
taught to me either. You wrote FORTRAN for the Magic Box and it did
what you told it to do.
I was interested in computers before so I knew more about the
hardware than most, but for many it really was just the Magic Box.
They were very proud of their new 360/30 and made sure everyone knew about >> it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30
The school had close ties with IBM and may have been partially gifted with >> it. Teach them IBM young... That scheme is time honored. Apple's Neo with >> its education discounts didn't dream it up yesterday.
...
Yes, Apple has (and others have) been using educational discounts
to great advantage. Around 1980ish, a representative Apple II
retailed for around US$1,200. A comparable Radio Shack Color
Computer (with a superior CPU) retailed for around US$160-200.
The educational discounts were steep enough that school districts
bought Apple IIs almost exclusively.
On 4/4/26 04:50, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-04 09:52, Nuno Silva wrote:
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to
alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public
schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in
"The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was
ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the
older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual
element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was
sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was
referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with
"hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for >>> orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
When I was at Uni in Madrid, at the Uni itself there was none. The
studies were terrifying, no need to add more pain.
However, at the halls of residence (DeepL says that is the translation
for "Colegio Mayor") it was a different story. At mine it was very
mild. At others it was much worse.
Generally hazing is done to test the Mettle of the new parties and group hazing build bonds between those who share misery.
More exclusive hazing for the Franternities and Sororities of which I have no personal experience builds intensity loyalty supposedly to
te Greek Letter clubs. In some of the USA's great universities like
Yale and Harvard it builds bonds that are sustained for life as the
members promise to support one another in their business and
political lives. A very exclusive society, Skull and Bones, has
contributed several presidents and other high officials to the
USA. Not the worst either since Trump became president.
If he had lost this present term, George Bush of the Iraq War
would hold the title.
bliss - HS graduate who has been reading a lot since 1955
On Sat, 04 Apr 2026 03:22:38 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >>>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>> >>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>> >> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>to that American activity. He was probably talking about the >>>different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant >>something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were >>humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
Happy to add to your knowledge of Americanisms: the phrase here is
"lower than whale shit on the bottom of the ocean".
The plug-in card bus WAS a nice Apple feature though.
...
In many cases, particularly in the city, they only use chip seal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipseal
That's a real joy. They spray the asphalt and cover it with copious
amounts of crushed stone. Traffic then tamps it down. Sometime
later they come back and sweep up the surplus gravel for reuse. I
take the dirt bike if I know I have to deal with fresh chipseal.
On 2026-04-04 19:57, c186282 wrote:
On 4/4/26 07:20, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 22:29, c186282 wrote:
On 4/3/26 16:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 20:47, c186282 wrote:
...
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
Because that is another step. Possibly even different people.
Didn't find any, even going four or five
pages in and trying to customize the search
params a few times.
The info is there SOMEWHERE ... but WHERE ???
Or do they want you to buy a $150 book ?
Possibly. What I learned was in an UNI course, it was not in a book.
In fact, I think they used an imaginary CPU that does not exist, so no
books at all except class notes. I don't remember if there was some
self published book (photocopied).
Someone who CAN should put together a simple
animation ... show those registers loading
at the bit level, the mem fetch, the decode,
the data store, what's wired to what with a
few-sentence comment for each stage. A 4-bit
example would be clearer.
Sometime, maybe soon, humans won't know how
to do this stuff anymore - it'll all be the
AIs ... and then it all becomes 'magic'.
Interesting eh ... we only pulled ourselves out
of a Magical Universe a few hundred years ago
and now we're headed back :-)
What IS the proper sacrifice to the Regional
Utility Manager AI ?
I posted a link to an schematic of the 6502, showing all transistors. I haven't looked if that guy has created more drawings.
Yes, a simulation would be nice.
Yet I assume that there are university courses teaching how to design a CPU.
A particular gripe is Wiki URLs ending in a right parenthesis, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
That is unclickable here because my 'reader, on finding ')' at the end, >expects there to be a paired '(' at the beginning. If the whole URL
is properly delimited with e.g. the recommended* '<angle brackets>'
thus:-
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)>
- it's clickable.
* Other delimiters are acceptable, e.g.: (parentheses); {braces};
[square brackets]; <angle brackets>; "double quotes"; or even
white-space if it's the same kind of white-space at each end.
It's described in:
<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>
Here endeth the rant.
On 4/4/26 16:39, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2026-04-04, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 13:46:37 -0400, c186282 wrote:
No real ref to the hardware or how it worked on a low level was
taught to me either. You wrote FORTRAN for the Magic Box and it did >>>> what you told it to do.
I was interested in computers before so I knew more about the
hardware than most, but for many it really was just the Magic Box.
They were very proud of their new 360/30 and made sure everyone knew about >>> it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30
The school had close ties with IBM and may have been partially gifted with >>> it. Teach them IBM young... That scheme is time honored. Apple's Neo with >>> its education discounts didn't dream it up yesterday.
...
Yes, Apple has (and others have) been using educational discounts
to great advantage. Around 1980ish, a representative Apple II
retailed for around US$1,200. A comparable Radio Shack Color
Computer (with a superior CPU) retailed for around US$160-200.
The educational discounts were steep enough that school districts
bought Apple IIs almost exclusively.
The 6809 ... "superior" ? In SOME ways. However
the 6502 could get it done in fewer cycles. The
extra registers in the 09 were nice, but not
necessarily "required". I'd call it a draw.
As for the Ed Discounts, yep, Apple somehow sold
its expensive products over some perfectly adequate
lower-cost models. Clever snake-oil marketing. Their
salesmen knew all the words and phrases that would
persuade academics - "creativity", "artistic" .....
All of the following fit the RFC3896 recommendation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)"
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation) also.
The following don’t:
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)> TextIncludinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)AUrl.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation).[...]
snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
So it's either a failing in MacSOUP or a weakness in the RFC spec.
As MacSOUP comes from very early days of Usenet, perhaps it was
written to comply with an earlier RFC. The above shows that it is
perfectly happy with URLs that are explicitly delimited at both ends.
Parentheses have been valid in HTTP URLs all the way back to the
beginning, so there’s no obvious excuse for clients to misinterpret URLs with parentheses in. Someone either didn’t read whatever specification prevailed at the time, or read it but decided they knew better, or tried
to follow it but botched the implementation and didn’t test it.
It would be interesting to know how other 'readers perform with
these examples.
Gnus recognises the full URL in all the versions except the penultimate invalid example (although recognizing the last version suggests it would misinterpret a hypothetical URL ending with a “.”.)
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 03:24:23 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
A particular gripe is Wiki URLs ending in a right parenthesis, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)
That is unclickable here because my 'reader, on finding ')' at the end, >>expects there to be a paired '(' at the beginning. If the whole URL
is properly delimited with e.g. the recommended* '<angle brackets>'
thus:-
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-can_(disambiguation)>
- it's clickable.
* Other delimiters are acceptable, e.g.: (parentheses); {braces};
[square brackets]; <angle brackets>; "double quotes"; or even
white-space if it's the same kind of white-space at each end.
It's described in:
<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>
Here endeth the rant.
The only delimiters that seem to work on my mail reader are <angle
brackets>
Many bulk mailers, like Mail Chimp, seem to use round brackets, which
don't work, and are necessary because their URLs often take up the
whole screen with all the spy info they include. Their loss, though,
because if I do follow one of their links I husually copy from the
beginning to the first ? and leave out the rest of the junk.
On 2026-04-04 04:24, Sn!pe wrote:[...]
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 4/2/26 23:31, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2026 14:09:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I also am surprized by that lack of "<URL>" wrapping.
Generally too polite to say anything about it.
Pan sneers at your brackets. Maybe there is a setting someplace but I >>>> never found it.
It is not a setting but a choice by the poster.
put down <> when you want to post a URL then copy
it between < and >.
It is a very minor exertion.
But it is Earth Day once more...
<https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/4/3/2376185/-Cartoon-Cut-ups-Every-Day-is-Earth-Day>
For instance, Bobbie posted an URL (it is above):
+++----------------------
But it is Earth Day once more... <https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/4/3/2376185/-Cartoon-Cut-ups-Every-Day-is-Earth-Day>
----------------------++-
It wraps when I paste it (can't be undone). Fortunately, when posted
when posted, after clicking "send".
If I reply to Bobbie's post, I get:
+++----------------------
On 2026-04-03 16:58, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
But it is Earth Day once more...----------------------++-
<https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/4/3/2376185/-Cartoon-Cut-ups-
Every-Day-is-Earth-Day>
--<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>
The only time "all the transistors" might even have been considered was
when they go to actually laying out the photomasks by hand on rubylith
and even then they very likely only worried about a small area of the
rubylith layout at a time and just worked their way along.
And that drawing was probably made by hand, too. The PC did not exist.
Yet I assume that there are university courses teaching how to design aYou would be surprised.
CPU.
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-04-04 19:57, c186282 wrote:
On 4/4/26 07:20, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 22:29, c186282 wrote:
On 4/3/26 16:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 20:47, c186282 wrote:
...
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
Because that is another step. Possibly even different people.
Didn't find any, even going four or five
pages in and trying to customize the search
params a few times.
The info is there SOMEWHERE ... but WHERE ???
Or do they want you to buy a $150 book ?
Possibly. What I learned was in an UNI course, it was not in a book.
In fact, I think they used an imaginary CPU that does not exist, so no >>>> books at all except class notes. I don't remember if there was some
self published book (photocopied).
Someone who CAN should put together a simple
animation ... show those registers loading
at the bit level, the mem fetch, the decode,
the data store, what's wired to what with a
few-sentence comment for each stage. A 4-bit
example would be clearer.
Sometime, maybe soon, humans won't know how
to do this stuff anymore - it'll all be the
AIs ... and then it all becomes 'magic'.
Interesting eh ... we only pulled ourselves out
of a Magical Universe a few hundred years ago
and now we're headed back :-)
What IS the proper sacrifice to the Regional
Utility Manager AI ?
I posted a link to an schematic of the 6502, showing all transistors. I
haven't looked if that guy has created more drawings.
Yes, a simulation would be nice.
For the 6502 there is a transistor level simulation available: <http://visual6502.org/>.
--Yet I assume that there are university courses teaching how to design a CPU.
There are (or, well, were when I was in Uni, I presume a similar course
is still available).
On 04/04/2026 17:44, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The only time "all the transistors" might even have been considered was
when they go to actually laying out the photomasks by hand on rubylith
and even then they very likely only worried about a small area of the
rubylith layout at a time and just worked their way along.
And that drawing was probably made by hand, too. The PC did not exist.
Well the PC perhaps not, but drawing packages existed on larger machines from the late 50s. "CAD" was coined in 1959...
On 2026-04-05 13:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/04/2026 17:44, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The only time "all the transistors" might even have been considered was >>>> when they go to actually laying out the photomasks by hand on rubylith >>>> and even then they very likely only worried about a small area of the
rubylith layout at a time and just worked their way along.
And that drawing was probably made by hand, too. The PC did not exist.
Well the PC perhaps not, but drawing packages existed on larger
machines from the late 50s. "CAD" was coined in 1959...
Ah. Did not know that. Or forgot.
In comp.os.linux.misc rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
...
In many cases, particularly in the city, they only use chip seal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipseal
That's a real joy. They spray the asphalt and cover it with
copious amounts of crushed stone. Traffic then tamps it down.
Sometime later they come back and sweep up the surplus gravel
for reuse. I take the dirt bike if I know I have to deal with
fresh chipseal.
So that's what that is called. The first few times they did
that treatment here, they didn't spray enough asphalt down and
the result was a road covered in loose fine crushed stones. I
always chalked it up to the fact that most local board
politicians cannot recognize when marketers are lying (hint,
they are always lying) since a coverage of loose fine crushed
stone seemed about as useful for 'resurfacing' as just doing
nothing.
The aggregate is evenly distributed over the hot seal spray,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
then rolled into the bitumen using heavy rubber tired rollers
creating a paved surface.
Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> posted:
[ ... ]
He died on March 18. There's 20 column inches of achievements,Some families do seem to have lots of long-lived people. My paternal grandmother's
honors, etc., before getting to: The people he is 'survived by'
includes (of his own generation) his wife, four sisters, and two
brothers. The text leaves me unsure, but I think that he was
pre-deceased by one of his three children.
I've read before that studies of historical records generally show
that 'genetics' does not play much role in living to old ages. This
looks like a family whose DNA might give clues to the opposite
conclusion. I do not recall hearing before of a 94-year old leaving
behind six siblings.
family was like that and was famous for it. I have records of 16 people related
to me who lived to 95 or beyond; of these, 7 were from my grandmother's family
(she herself only managed 89).
Not a good statistical study, of course, especially as matters are complicated >by the fact that people tended to live longer in the 20th century than in earlier
centuries. My mother was a few days short of 99 when she died. One of her sisters
only managed 78, but her other sister reached, 97 despite being a very heavy >smoker (up to 60 cigarettes a day at one time) for years.
On 05/04/2026 12:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-05 13:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/04/2026 17:44, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The only time "all the transistors" might even have been considered >>>>> was
when they go to actually laying out the photomasks by hand on rubylith >>>>> and even then they very likely only worried about a small area of the >>>>> rubylith layout at a time and just worked their way along.
And that drawing was probably made by hand, too. The PC did not exist.
Well the PC perhaps not, but drawing packages existed on larger
machines from the late 50s. "CAD" was coined in 1959...
Ah. Did not know that. Or forgot.
What really marked the 'professional' advent of the PC as opposed to consumer/hobby level stuff was the porting of Seriously Expensive professional programs onto a relatively inexpensive platform.
Accounting systems
Spreadsheets
Word processing
Typesetting
Databases
Graphic design.
Computer modelling.
Computer aided design.
Scientific instrumentation.
Computer aided manufacturing
Some programs descended from 80x25 serial terminals and a minicomputer/ mainframe to desktop apps on a single machine.
Some migrated from custom hardware to a PC with a plug in ISA card.
Some migrated from dedicated graphics equipped minicomputers to a
desktop...
Basically everything was there already, but not designed for the mass
market that the PC allowed access to.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 03:32:24 -0000 (UTC),
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
...
In many cases, particularly in the city, they only use chip seal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipseal
That's a real joy. They spray the asphalt and cover it with
copious amounts of crushed stone. Traffic then tamps it down.
Sometime later they come back and sweep up the surplus gravel
for reuse. I take the dirt bike if I know I have to deal with
fresh chipseal.
So that's what that is called. The first few times they did
that treatment here, they didn't spray enough asphalt down and
the result was a road covered in loose fine crushed stones. I
always chalked it up to the fact that most local board
politicians cannot recognize when marketers are lying (hint,
they are always lying) since a coverage of loose fine crushed
stone seemed about as useful for 'resurfacing' as just doing
nothing.
It's very common in northern Indiana where I used to cycle a great
deal. And as rbowman describes, the common practice there is for
subsequent motor vehicle traffic to do the tamping down. So there
is a period of time (usually weeks) when loose gravel is quite
prevalent over the surface--often an inch or so deep. Very dicey
to ride on with road bikes.
The wikipedia article describes a different practice...
The aggregate is evenly distributed over the hot seal spray,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
then rolled into the bitumen using heavy rubber tired rollers
creating a paved surface.
I've actually not seen this done, that I can recall.
It's pretty common for cyclists to watch the fresh asphalt roads
very closely, praying for stripes to go down on it and not gravel.
So that's what that is called. The first few times they didIt's very common in northern Indiana where I used to cycle a great
that treatment here, they didn't spray enough asphalt down and
the result was a road covered in loose fine crushed stones. I
always chalked it up to the fact that most local board
politicians cannot recognize when marketers are lying (hint,
they are always lying) since a coverage of loose fine crushed
stone seemed about as useful for 'resurfacing' as just doing
nothing.
deal. And as rbowman describes, the common practice there is for
subsequent motor vehicle traffic to do the tamping down. So there
is a period of time (usually weeks) when loose gravel is quite
prevalent over the surface--often an inch or so deep. Very dicey
to ride on with road bikes.
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 18:10:08 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The plug-in card bus WAS a nice Apple feature though.
Particularly when you plugged in a Z80 card and ran CP/M.
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-04-04 19:57, c186282 wrote:
On 4/4/26 07:20, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 22:29, c186282 wrote:
On 4/3/26 16:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-03 20:47, c186282 wrote:
...
Also tried to look up the "how to" for CPU operation.
Endless pages of stuff - but all 'higher level' stuff,
nothing at the base wiring level - explanations rather
than construction schematics.
Because that is another step. Possibly even different people.
Didn't find any, even going four or five
pages in and trying to customize the search
params a few times.
The info is there SOMEWHERE ... but WHERE ???
Or do they want you to buy a $150 book ?
Possibly. What I learned was in an UNI course, it was not in a book.
In fact, I think they used an imaginary CPU that does not exist, so no >>>> books at all except class notes. I don't remember if there was some
self published book (photocopied).
Someone who CAN should put together a simple
animation ... show those registers loading
at the bit level, the mem fetch, the decode,
the data store, what's wired to what with a
few-sentence comment for each stage. A 4-bit
example would be clearer.
Sometime, maybe soon, humans won't know how
to do this stuff anymore - it'll all be the
AIs ... and then it all becomes 'magic'.
Interesting eh ... we only pulled ourselves out
of a Magical Universe a few hundred years ago
and now we're headed back :-)
What IS the proper sacrifice to the Regional
Utility Manager AI ?
I posted a link to an schematic of the 6502, showing all transistors. I
haven't looked if that guy has created more drawings.
Yes, a simulation would be nice.
For the 6502 there is a transistor level simulation available: <http://visual6502.org/>.
Yet I assume that there are university courses teaching how to design a CPU.
There are (or, well, were when I was in Uni, I presume a similar course
is still available).
Although the Sinclair ZX81 and the Spectrum were almost it. In Spain
there were serious software made for it. For small business.
Here in Suffolk UK they do this a lot... mostly there is not a huge
excess of stone chips BUT the chances of paint chips etc is pretty high
for a few days
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 19:50:19 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Although the Sinclair ZX81 and the Spectrum were almost it. In Spain
there were serious software made for it. For small business.
I purchased the ZX81 as a kit of of curiosity. It very much was not 'it'
You can't point to a single computer for CP/M. There were many different offerings, including two 'portables', the Osborne and KayPro. There was
even a Z80 card for the Apple II so it could run CP/M software.
VisiCalc was supposedly Apple's killer app, but SuperCalc on CP/M improved
on it and was released shortly after. dBASE II and WordStar both were CP/M programs.
Supposedly Kildall was off playing when IBM called and his second in
command wouldn't sign off on the NDA or we would have had the superior CP/ M6-86.
I think though that Gael Duval learned to program on a ZX81.
This where I learned that bit of history a video entitled
*Mandrake the distro that should have won...*
This is the URL from the PCLinuxOS forum that has a video of the
topic
<https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1329>
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 17:01:11 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I think though that Gael Duval learned to program on a ZX81.
This where I learned that bit of history a video entitled
*Mandrake the distro that should have won...*
This is the URL from the PCLinuxOS forum that has a video of the
topic
<https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1329>
"The board requires you to be registered and logged in to view this
forum."
I had Mandrake on an old Compaq. It was a shrink wrapped box, with the penguin holding a magic wand, which I think was the 7.0 artwork. I assume that is what triggered the suit by Hearst. It's hard to claim the distro
was named after a hallucinogenic root after that.
Anybody who learned to program on a ZX81 is very persistent. The membrane keyboard was beyond bad, the RF output to a TV was headache inducing, and saving anything to a cassette player had a 50/50 chance of ever being
loaded again. I bought the kit form and that required some repair beyond
the documented assembly procedure.
iirc the kit was $99 and like the $50 TurboPascal for CP/M I was
interested in what you got for your money.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 17:01:11 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I think though that Gael Duval learned to program on a ZX81.
This where I learned that bit of history a video entitled
*Mandrake the distro that should have won...*
This is the URL from the PCLinuxOS forum that has a video of the
topic
<https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1329>
"The board requires you to be registered and logged in to view this
forum."
I had Mandrake on an old Compaq. It was a shrink wrapped box, with the penguin holding a magic wand, which I think was the 7.0 artwork. I assume that is what triggered the suit by Hearst. It's hard to claim the distro
was named after a hallucinogenic root after that.
Anybody who learned to program on a ZX81 is very persistent. The membrane keyboard was beyond bad, the RF output to a TV was headache inducing, and saving anything to a cassette player had a 50/50 chance of ever being
loaded again. I bought the kit form and that required some repair beyond
the documented assembly procedure.
iirc the kit was $99 and like the $50 TurboPascal for CP/M I was
interested in what you got for your money.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 20:46:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Here in Suffolk UK they do this a lot... mostly there is not a huge
excess of stone chips BUT the chances of paint chips etc is pretty high
for a few days
The windshield repair places that specialize in stone chips love chipseal. I've never had it done but I think they fill the chip with some sort of epoxy. The optical clarity may not be great but windshield replacement is pricey, even more so if the windshield incorporates a radar unit.
Generally hazing is done to test the Mettle of the new parties and
group hazing build bonds between those who share misery. [...] In
some of the USA's great universities like Yale and Harvard it builds
bonds that are sustained for life
Well gee I am sorry about that. The Forum previouslypermitted
unregistered visitors as guest to look at the messages. Try this one: <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYlMGSxDy8fCQGXesK64aEg>
I never thought it was named after the mandrake root. But thename
was based on the comic strip and the only way it could be clearer would
have been if instead ot the Wand they had used "Mandrake gestures hypnotically".
Mandrake was Mandriva by the time I got to it. Gael Duval anddone
great
work to make Mandriva easier to use. I did not know that Mandrake
charged so much but it continued at $50 for Mandriva in a shrink-wrapped
box with a light weight booklet. Then at the same price you could
download an iso file. But in 2011 they produced a stinker which would
not run on my hardware. I looked for help online but there was none I
could understand.
I do things slowly but by 2014 I found PCLinuxOS and it was somuch
like Mandriva that i fell for it. A year or so later I had to change hardware again and ended up with a Window 10 with EFI. PCLinuxOS was
not ready for EFI so I tried Mageia 3.1 which I think was before the
systemd was added In 2016 I went back to PCLinuxOS and have not swerved
from that in the last 10 years.
Mandriva did one dumb thing as soon as they had moved to France.
They fired the man, Gaei Duval, who had made the system easy to use,
which was the main attraction of the Mandrake series. They should have changed the name to Merlin Linux but maybe that ranchy old sorceror was
too much for them.
Having adopted Linux in 2006 I joined our local LUG and for some
years after the 2008 real estate crash I was the person who showed up at
the Cafe, where we met, to claim territory for the in-person meetings.
I think we had one meeting in August of that year when the initial
wave of Covid seemed to be fading. But then the Delta-9 variant hit and
now we meet only on the first Sunday of the month online using Jit.si.
We have about 215 members but today only 3 people showed up and I had
slept though the first half of the meeting. Usually we get 5 but one
man a widower has remarried and had a family to celebrate the Easter
holiday with. Others I am sure were doing the same.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 21:18:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I never thought it was named after the mandrake root. But the name
was based on the comic strip and the only way it could be clearer
would have been if instead ot the Wand they had used "Mandrake
gestures hypnotically".
It was always clear. I meant they could hardly dream up a legal argument that they weren't referring to the magician. Trademarks are a morass. I don't remember which car manufacturer it was but they ran afoul of a trademark registered by the Maine Potato Growers. Savage came out with a less expensive rifle called Edge, lost a suit, and changed it to Axis. I'm not sure how MS got away with the Edge browser.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 21:18:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Well gee I am sorry about that. The Forum previously permitted
unregistered visitors as guest to look at the messages. Try this one:
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYlMGSxDy8fCQGXesK64aEg>
Thanks! That worked. A couple of months ago there was a thread, the gist
of which Linux took off with Ubuntu because it made installation easy. I argued Mandrake had done that years earlier. Canonical's innovation was sending out CDs like AOL. My preference has been KDE and I think it's unfortunate TrollTech had such an opaque licensing setup. That's still
going on with PyQt6 versus PySice6 because of Riverside Computing.
It was always clear. I meant they could hardly dream up a legal argumentweight booklet. Then at the same price you could
that they weren't referring to the magician. Trademarks are a morass. I
don't remember which car manufacturer it was but they ran afoul of a trademark registered by the Maine Potato Growers. Savage came out with a
less expensive rifle called Edge, lost a suit, and changed it to Axis. I'm not sure how MS got away with the Edge browser.
Mandrake was Mandriva by the time I got to it. Gael Duval had
done great work to make Mandriva easier to use.
I did not know that Mandrake charged so much but it continued
at $50 for Mandriva in a shrink-wrapped>> box with a light
download an iso file. But in 2011 they produced a stinker which would
not run on my hardware. I looked for help online but there was none I
could understand.
Red Hat Linux pissed me off in 2000 with their homegrown gcc and Python
that broke stuff so I switched to SuSE. The box was $80 but had several
books worth of documentation, and several CDs.
Mandriva did one dumb thing as soon as they had moved to France.
They fired the man, Gaei Duval, who had made the system easy to use,
which was the main attraction of the Mandrake series. They should have
changed the name to Merlin Linux but maybe that ranchy old sorceror was
too much for them.
I didn't know about PCLinuxOS until you mentioned it.
Having adopted Linux in 2006 I joined our local LUG and for some
years after the 2008 real estate crash I was the person who showed up at
the Cafe, where we met, to claim territory for the in-person meetings.
We started a LUG, also in 2006. It faded away after a short while. Most of the members were people I worked with. I was surprised last year when I
got an email from google groups when the library project resurrected it.
That group moved to Discord. Due to concerns with age verification it will probably move to Matrix. Installing Matrix/Element is one of the biggest PITAs I've encountered.
I did learn one thing from the video -- Clang is pronounced like the
clanging of a bell. I never had a reason to say the word although I have
it installed and use it.
Trademarks are also a quirky area where "opinon of the court" weighs
heavily. As long as the courts opinion is that there's no confusion as
to the source of the products, different things can overlap each other
100% trademark wise and still not be a problem.
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 13:28:36 -0700
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Generally hazing is done to test the Mettle of the new parties and
group hazing build bonds between those who share misery. [...] In
some of the USA's great universities like Yale and Harvard it builds
bonds that are sustained for life
That's certainly the public line whenever a pledge gets killed in a
dumb stunt and the traditionalists have to scramble to explain to the
cops and the media how this is Fine, Actually. Sounds a lot more high-
minded than "institutionalized abuse of newbies is the means by which >sociopaths who get off on tormenting people find a socially-acceptable
outlet for their disease."
It's no friggin' wonder these people end up in politics and Management.
On Mon, 6 Apr 2026 07:45:57 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 13:28:36 -0700
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Generally hazing is done to test the Mettle of the new parties and
group hazing build bonds between those who share misery. [...] In
some of the USA's great universities like Yale and Harvard it builds
bonds that are sustained for life
That's certainly the public line whenever a pledge gets killed in a
dumb stunt and the traditionalists have to scramble to explain to the
cops and the media how this is Fine, Actually. Sounds a lot more high-
minded than "institutionalized abuse of newbies is the means by which
sociopaths who get off on tormenting people find a socially-acceptable
outlet for their disease."
It's no friggin' wonder these people end up in politics and Management.
From a US dictionary:
haze
3 of 3
verb (2)
hazed; hazing
transitive verb
1
a
: to harass by exacting unnecessary or disagreeable work
b
: to harass by banter, ridicule, or criticism
2
: to play tricks on or force to do unpleasant or unsafe things as initiation haze the fraternity pledges
3
Western US : to drive (animals, such as cattle or horses) from
horseback
hazer noun
From Wikipedia:
Ragging
Ragging is the term used for the so-called "initiation ritual"
practiced in higher education institutions in India, Pakistan,
Bangladesh, Nepal, and Sri Lanka. The practice is similar to hazing in
North America, fagging in the UK, bizutage in France, praxe in
Portugal, and other similar practices in educational institutions
across the world. Ragging involves abuse, humiliation, or harassment
of new entrants or junior students by the senior students Continued in Wikipedia
I understood "ragging" to be a synonym for "teasing" generally, and
not as specifically applied to initiation rituals.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 03:32:24 -0000 (UTC),
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
...
In many cases, particularly in the city, they only use chip seal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipseal
That's a real joy. They spray the asphalt and cover it with
copious amounts of crushed stone. Traffic then tamps it down.
Sometime later they come back and sweep up the surplus gravel
for reuse. I take the dirt bike if I know I have to deal with
fresh chipseal.
So that's what that is called. The first few times they did
that treatment here, they didn't spray enough asphalt down and
the result was a road covered in loose fine crushed stones. I
always chalked it up to the fact that most local board
politicians cannot recognize when marketers are lying (hint,
they are always lying) since a coverage of loose fine crushed
stone seemed about as useful for 'resurfacing' as just doing
nothing.
It's very common in northern Indiana where I used to cycle a great
deal. And as rbowman describes, the common practice there is for
subsequent motor vehicle traffic to do the tamping down. So there
is a period of time (usually weeks) when loose gravel is quite
prevalent over the surface--often an inch or so deep. Very dicey
to ride on with road bikes.
The wikipedia article describes a different practice...
The aggregate is evenly distributed over the hot seal spray,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
then rolled into the bitumen using heavy rubber tired rollers
creating a paved surface.
I've actually not seen this done, that I can recall.
It's pretty common for cyclists to watch the fresh asphalt roads
very closely, praying for stripes to go down on it and not gravel.
On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 14:55:51 -0700, Snidely wrote:[-]
I'm curious as to how you use a Dutch oven. My thinking is shaped by
the idea that you bury it in the coals of the fire, or even bury it in
the soil and build the fire over it. That comes from scouting stories
and TV programs about pre-industrial cooking ... on the prairie with no kitchen and in colonial (America) homes where the fireplace was a big
part of the kitchen.
Some have a ridge around the top that allows you to pile coals on it, and I've seen it used to bake beans the old fashioned way.
https://www.lodgecastiron.com/collections/dutch-ovens
Mine is the one labeled 'Cast Iron Dutch Ovens' in 7 quarts not the 'Camp Dutch Oven'. I do have a couple of smaller ones with a raised rim that are good for a 1 cup serving of oatmeal or rice.
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
On 08/04/26 17:59, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
They are the ones that nobody can understand.
On 08/04/26 17:59, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
They are the ones that nobody can understand.
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> posted:
On 08/04/26 17:59, J. J. Lodder wrote:Can someone explain to me why companies who make things like computers and portable telephones love to introduce new "features" that no one wants or needs and whose main effect is to make the thing more difficult to use? My (oldish) iPhone has real physical button at the bottom that I use all the time. When my wife's more fancy iPhone came out they decided to replace this with a touch-screen "button" that is a pain in the neck to use. Why?
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
They are the ones that nobody can understand.
Our bank is just as bad. I probably should check our current account
every month, but in practice it's more like every three or four
months. Almost every time I find they've changed something to make accessing the account more difficult.
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> posted:
On 08/04/26 17:59, J. J. Lodder wrote:Can someone explain to me why companies who make things like computers and portable telephones love to introduce new "features" that no one wants or needs and whose main effect is to make the thing more difficult to use? My (oldish) iPhone has real physical button at the bottom that I use all the time. When my wife's more fancy iPhone came out they decided to replace this with a touch-screen "button" that is a pain in the neck to use. Why?
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
They are the ones that nobody can understand.
Our bank is just as bad. I probably should check our current account every month, but in practice it's more like every three or four months. Almost every time I find they've changed something to make accessing the account more difficult.
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
On Wed, 8 Apr 2026 09:59:07 +0200, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
That should be self explanatory.
amazon.com/Dutch-Oven-Sourdough-Bread-Baking/dp/B0F7RTSVT8
Can someone explain to me why companies who make things likeAh. Clever Science Man say New Shiny Thing make everything better...
computers and portable telephones love to introduce new "features"
that no one wants or needs and whose main effect is to make the thing
more difficult to use?
My (oldish) iPhone has real physical button at the bottom that I use
all the time. When my wife's more fancy iPhone came out they decided
to replace this with a touch-screen "button" that is a pain in the
neck to use. Why?
Our bank is just as bad. I probably should check our current account
every month, but in practice it's more like every three or four
months. Almost every time I find they've changed something to make
accessing the account more difficult.
On 2026-04-08, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> posted:
On 08/04/26 17:59, J. J. Lodder wrote:Can someone explain to me why companies who make things like computers and >> portable telephones love to introduce new "features" that no one wants or
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
They are the ones that nobody can understand.
needs and whose main effect is to make the thing more difficult to use? My >> (oldish) iPhone has real physical button at the bottom that I use all the
time. When my wife's more fancy iPhone came out they decided to replace this >> with a touch-screen "button" that is a pain in the neck to use. Why?
Our bank is just as bad. I probably should check our current account every >> month, but in practice it's more like every three or four months. Almost
every time I find they've changed something to make accessing the account
more difficult.
At this rate, probably either because a magazine CEOs read says it's the
new thing to be done, or because someone's premium brand new device
includes that change and so it must be changed everywhere by decree of
the suits.
(Compare with the GenAI hype.)
I've seen ATMs with a fixed number of buttons on the side, perhaps
bottom too. Would it be too hard to at least have this sort of stuff in smartphones, at the very least on the bottom, but perhaps on the sides
too, as a sort of improved interaction system, for those phones that
really don't want to have a physical E.161?
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2026 09:59:07 +0200, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
That should be self explanatory.
amazon.com/Dutch-Oven-Sourdough-Bread-Baking/dp/B0F7RTSVT8
That one is obvious, just two paired ones side by side,
but the "Double Dutch Ovens' on your original site, (being obviouly
circular in outline)
don't match your explanation,
Jan
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> posted:
On 08/04/26 17:59, J. J. Lodder wrote:Can someone explain to me why companies who make things like computers and >portable telephones love to introduce new "features" that no one wants or >needs and whose main effect is to make the thing more difficult to use? My >(oldish) iPhone has real physical button at the bottom that I use all the >time. When my wife's more fancy iPhone came out they decided to replace this >with a touch-screen "button" that is a pain in the neck to use. Why?
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
They are the ones that nobody can understand.
On Wed, 8 Apr 2026 20:57:26 +0200, J. J. Lodder wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2026 09:59:07 +0200, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I see on your site that there are things called 'Double Dutch Ovens'
What is it that makes a Dutch Oven 'Double Dutch'?
That should be self explanatory.
amazon.com/Dutch-Oven-Sourdough-Bread-Baking/dp/B0F7RTSVT8
That one is obvious, just two paired ones side by side,
but the "Double Dutch Ovens' on your original site, (being obviouly circular in outline)
don't match your explanation,
Jan
https://www.lodgecastiron.com/products/chef-collection-6-quart-double- dutch-oven
"This chef-inspired dutch oven is a dream for any home chef! The smart
design features a lid that doubles as a grill pan, which can work together with the dutch oven to create an entire meal."
To address the "why" of removing physical buttons on a phone, those take
up volume inside the case that is scarce (phones are thinner, and more powerful electronics are crammed inside). As a lesser impact, more
buttons means more places for the case to fail (water resistance, impact resistance, dust seals, etc).
On 2026-03-20, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-03-20, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-03-20, Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:[...]
The more fire trucks show up for a blaze, the more expensive
the damage is apt to be.
"Look, mommy, there's a fire engine. There's going to be a fire."
-- Fahrenheit 451 (movie)
How does that one fare compared to the book? I might try watching it
this year.
I seem to recall it was not too bad. I don't remember seeing
the above quote in the book, which IMHO makes the movie worth
watching for that reason alone.
On 2026-03-21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-03-20, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-03-20, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-03-20, Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:[...]
The more fire trucks show up for a blaze, the more expensive
the damage is apt to be.
"Look, mommy, there's a fire engine. There's going to be a fire."
-- Fahrenheit 451 (movie)
How does that one fare compared to the book? I might try watching it
this year.
I seem to recall it was not too bad. I don't remember seeing
the above quote in the book, which IMHO makes the movie worth
watching for that reason alone.
I didn't see that line in the movie (maybe I was distracted too much at
some crucial moment?) - but now that I saw on wikipedia that there are
at least two movies, 1966 and 2018, which one is this quote from?
On 2026-04-11, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-03-21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-03-20, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-03-20, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-03-20, Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:[...]
The more fire trucks show up for a blaze, the more expensive
the damage is apt to be.
"Look, mommy, there's a fire engine. There's going to be a fire."
-- Fahrenheit 451 (movie)
How does that one fare compared to the book? I might try watching it
this year.
I seem to recall it was not too bad. I don't remember seeing
the above quote in the book, which IMHO makes the movie worth
watching for that reason alone.
I didn't see that line in the movie (maybe I was distracted too much at
some crucial moment?) - but now that I saw on wikipedia that there are
at least two movies, 1966 and 2018, which one is this quote from?
It must have been the 1966 one. (Was it really that long ago?)
I don't think I even noticed that a remake was done.
In comp.os.linux.misc Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>> to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with
"hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for
orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
It is likely the "social clique" version of the "five monkeys
experiment" <https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction>
from business/government that is often used to explain how some long
outdated process continues to remain "the policy". Because "that is
the way it has always been done", even though no one doing the process,
nor no one mandating the process as policy, remembers why the process
was done in the way it is done.
The current "social clique" members had to undergo the torture to gain
their status as "in" members of the clique, so therefore all new
entrants have to also undergo the same torture the current "in" members underwent in order for the new entrants to prove their worthiness for inclusion in the clique. I.e., "because we have always done it that
way".
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