FOSS will be FOSS. Away from the major shit distros, there will
always be variety and grist for the technically inclined.
The new CDE, or Common Desktop Environment, is released:
https://www.phoronix.com/news/CDE-2.5.3-Desktop
I don't like it, but other might enjoy it.
I don't use DEs of any kind but this one is a tad ugly. It would
look better if it used Tk/Tcl instead of Motif.
Do the major shit distros include Motif? I doubt it because it's not compatible with that trendy junk Wayland.
CDE comes in source only, but the build uses the tried-and-true
"configure, make, make install" sequence. What could be easier?
There's none of the trendy junk meson, ninja, etc.
So that's the question: In your opinion, what's wrong with DE's,
which are just collections of tools built around a window
manager?
Because the "tools" are totally unnecessary.
What "tools" can a DE offer that cannot be provided by
various CLI or other software?
Answer: None.
Also, the DE requires an integrated software environment
that adds both bloat and insecurity. To link all the
DE applications together requires constantly running
"services" and that, IMO, is not a good idea and a complete
waste of computing resources.
Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
Because the "tools" are totally unnecessary.
Who are you to tell others what they should be using and what they
find useful?
What "tools" can a DE offer that cannot be provided by
various CLI or other software?
I use KDE and I like for example that I can click on URLs in text
windows and then get a popup whether I want to open that one in the
browser. I like that I have a graphical frontend to choose networks
and bring up and down my various VPN links. And I like that most of my software looks similar to each other and that I have some settings
that have the same effect on the majority of my programs.
Answer: None.
That's your opinion. Mark it as such.
Also, the DE requires an integrated software environment
that adds both bloat and insecurity. To link all the
DE applications together requires constantly running
"services" and that, IMO, is not a good idea and a complete
waste of computing resources.
Thankfully we nowadays have computers that are so vastly powerful that
it doesn't matter how "fat" our desktops are. The machines we use are powerful enough to cater for all that "coporate malware" that is being
in use to make Windows in the megacorps manageable and reasonably
secure. Our desktops might be less secure than they were in the
1990ies, but we're still vastly more secure than all those Windows
boxes that are the norm of computer usage.
And, once a current browser is running, the memory footprint of KDE
compared with "frugal" desktops as lxfe or xfce doesn't matter any
more anyway.
You are an anonymous person who is still stuck in the 1990ies. That's
your prerogative but you should not be running around shouting "YOU'RE
ALL WRONG AND MY WAY IS THE ONLY RIGHT ONE", that's ridiculous.
BTW, I've tried to get Wayland running two times, and both times
it was inscrutable. I guess I could switch to Cinnamon, but then
I'd have to set it up, and ICBB right now. So: oh noes, I'm
staying with X11.
So that's the question: In your opinion, what's wrong with DE's,
which are just collections of tools built around a window
manager?
You are an anonymous person who is still stuck in the 1990ies. That's
your prerogative but you should not be running around shouting "YOU'RE
ALL WRONG AND MY WAY IS THE ONLY RIGHT ONE", that's ridiculous.
You LIKE KDE ??? May as well just buy Win12 and
all of Bill's rip-off user-hating universe
Thankfully we nowadays have computers that are so vastly powerful that...
it doesn't matter how "fat" our desktops are.
You are an anonymous person who is still stuck in the 1990ies.
The tech may be dead ... but the PERSPECTIVE
lives on, for good reason.
vallor wrote:
BTW, I've tried to get Wayland running two times, and both times
it was inscrutable. I guess I could switch to Cinnamon, but then
I'd have to set it up, and ICBB right now. So: oh noes, I'm
staying with X11.
If that is your experience then fine. At the moment there is the choice.
X is good enough for desktop 'puter loaded to the gunwales with RAM and >sinking under the weight of its Intel/AMD CPU.
And its super power hungry GPU.
Thankfully we nowadays have computers that are so vastly powerful that
it doesn't matter how "fat" our desktops are.
And, once a current browser is running, the memory footprint of KDE
compared with "frugal" desktops as lxfe or xfce doesn't matter any
more anyway.
(One day Moore's Law will hit the wall with pesky real-world physics constraints, and we'll stop getting "easy" exponential drops in $/bit. That'll be a *real* interesting time...)
Because the "tools" are totally unnecessary.
What "tools" can a DE offer that cannot be provided by various CLI or
other software?
Answer: None.
Also, the DE requires an integrated software environment that adds both
bloat and insecurity. To link all the DE applications together requires constantly running "services" and that, IMO, is not a good idea and a complete waste of computing resources.
A DE is only a method of dazzling the digitally ignorant,
but because magic does not really exist a DE requires enormous resources
that the digitally competent can do without.
A window manager is the CLI elevated to a graphical level, and that,
also IMO, constitutes total computing perfection.
And yes, that stuff DOES still matter ... and not everybody is
running an i9 or equiv. Lots stick with rPIs and want to get the most
from them. My own New Laptop is i3 ..... runs cool, long battery
life, not a fan of high-rez video games, crappy net bandwidth.
On Wed, 10 Dec 2025 05:16:26 -0500, c186282 wrote:
The tech may be dead ... but the PERSPECTIVE
lives on, for good reason.
Lives on? I am not so sure.
"Keep it simple, stupid" should be the GNU/Linux mantra
but that philosophy seems quite foreign to both users and
developers alike.
A technical example: static device nodes.
What could be simpler that static device nodes? They
were present from the very beginning of GNU/Linux but
now they are impossible to implement. The screams of
the meretricious developers for "modernity" has brought
about their replacement by the far more complex dynamic
nodes.
But the end result is exactly the same; only the means
to that end has become extremely complexified.
This change, and the resultant absence of choice, was
perhaps the beginning of the end for GNU/Linux. There
has been nothing but a slow degeneration ever since.
Of course, the plebes will neither notice nor care.
They will keep on pointing and clicking within their
glitzy DEs while sipping their "Super Water" (at $20
per pint) and basking in their $800 Chinese sneakers.
Who needs dope when there is delusion?
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
vallor wrote:
BTW, I've tried to get Wayland running two times, and both times
it was inscrutable. I guess I could switch to Cinnamon, but then
I'd have to set it up, and ICBB right now. So: oh noes, I'm
staying with X11.
If that is your experience then fine. At the moment there is the choice.
Right, and that's what is important.
X is good enough for desktop 'puter loaded to the gunwales with RAM and
sinking under the weight of its Intel/AMD CPU.
And its super power hungry GPU.
People were running X just fine, decades ago, on single-core CPU's
running at 200 MHz.
On Wed, 10 Dec 2025 10:30:19 +0100
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
Thankfully we nowadays have computers that are so vastly powerful that
it doesn't matter how "fat" our desktops are.
And, once a current browser is running, the memory footprint of KDE
compared with "frugal" desktops as lxfe or xfce doesn't matter any
more anyway.
Hard disagree. It's bad enough that modern websites are as corpulent as they've become; I don't need everything *else* in my system infected by
the same mentality.
(One day Moore's Law will hit the wall with pesky real-world physics constraints, and we'll stop getting "easy" exponential drops in $/bit. That'll be a *real* interesting time...)
On Wed, 10 Dec 2025 05:16:26 -0500, c186282 wrote:
And yes, that stuff DOES still matter ... and not everybody is
running an i9 or equiv. Lots stick with rPIs and want to get the most
from them. My own New Laptop is i3 ..... runs cool, long battery
life, not a fan of high-rez video games, crappy net bandwidth.
fwiw
XDG_SESSION_DESKTOP=LXDE-pi-labwc
XDG_SESSION_TYPE=wayland
XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=labwc:wlroots
That's what you get from the box stock Raspberry Pi OS based on Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm).
They're STILL managing to cheat Dr. Moore ... but
not by nearly as much as in previous decades. The
processors, using conventional tech, are really
about as tiny as they can get. 'Quantum' might beat
that but it's not real-world tech for the masses
even after all this time.
When we DO hit the proverbial wall ... yea, that's
going to be VERY interesting 🙂
Parallelism won't save us.
Then along came the railroads, and there was rapid development from >Stephenson's Rocket to the Mallard. There it stopped mostly.
The new CDE, or Common Desktop Environment, is released: https://www.phoronix.com/news/CDE-2.5.3-Desktop
Well, over-active, but short-sighted, minds
look for "one size fits all" solutions. It
pays off the Tesla. You can kind of FAKE the
old static nodes using the modern framework.
NOT as simple or efficient or comprehensible
alas ...
Alas it now won't be very long before HUMAN
coders are all but obsolete. The pointy-haired
boss will just TELL an AI kind of what's wanted,
protos will be made in minutes, critique, re-code,
commercial product.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Then along came the railroads, and there was rapid development from
Stephenson's Rocket to the Mallard. There it stopped mostly.
I dont have a clue about stream locos that goes beyond having played
Railroad Tycoon 30 years ago, but did the Mallard actually haul 400
meter trains with 800 seats at 320 kph?
Greetings--
Marc
On 12/10/25 22:17, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2025 05:16:26 -0500, c186282 wrote:
And yes, that stuff DOES still matter ... and not everybody is
running an i9 or equiv. Lots stick with rPIs and want to get the
most from them. My own New Laptop is i3 ..... runs cool, long
battery life, not a fan of high-rez video games, crappy net
bandwidth.
fwiw
XDG_SESSION_DESKTOP=LXDE-pi-labwc XDG_SESSION_TYPE=wayland
XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=labwc:wlroots
That's what you get from the box stock Raspberry Pi OS based on Debian
GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm).
And it's more than good enough for a Desktop too :-)
LXDE is my fave !
On 11/12/2025 06:03, c186282 wrote:
They're STILL managing to cheat Dr. Moore ... but
not by nearly as much as in previous decades. The
processors, using conventional tech, are really
about as tiny as they can get. 'Quantum' might beat
that but it's not real-world tech for the masses
even after all this time.
When we DO hit the proverbial wall ... yea, that's
going to be VERY interesting 🙂
Parallelism won't save us.
Once upon a time there was rapid development, From ox cart to stage
coach and pony express.
Then along came the railroads, and there was rapid development from Stephenson's Rocket to the Mallard. There it stopped mostly.
And so on.
It a natural process - emerging technology starts crude and then
develops to as good as it gets and then either sticks around without
much change - a Roman charioteer would understand today's wheels - or is replaced by something else that does the same job better.
Where are the transatlantic luxury liners today? Boeing Boeing Bong!
On 12/11/25 04:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/12/2025 06:03, c186282 wrote:
They're STILL managing to cheat Dr. Moore ... but
not by nearly as much as in previous decades. The
processors, using conventional tech, are really
about as tiny as they can get. 'Quantum' might beat
that but it's not real-world tech for the masses
even after all this time.
When we DO hit the proverbial wall ... yea, that's
going to be VERY interesting 🙂
Parallelism won't save us.
Once upon a time there was rapid development, From ox cart to stage
coach and pony express.
Then along came the railroads, and there was rapid development from
Stephenson's Rocket to the Mallard. There it stopped mostly.
And so on.
It a natural process - emerging technology starts crude and then
develops to as good as it gets and then either sticks around without
much change - a Roman charioteer would understand today's wheels - or
is replaced by something else that does the same job better.
Where are the transatlantic luxury liners today? Boeing Boeing Bong!
There's nothing wrong with taking a boat across The Pond.
Most are fairly speedy these days.
The problem is PEOPLE ... forever in an extreme hurry.
All destination, no journey.
It is still possible to book passage on a freighter.
Some do have space for several paying passengers.
The price is fairly LOW ... the 'hospitality' is
whatever the crew gets. Speed maybe 15 knots. When I
was a little younger I seriously contemplated a few
such journeys but was Too Busy.
Maybe someday they'll be able to 'beam' you to
Mars Base UK in one second... and then some people
will bitch because it's not HALF a second :-)
On Thu, 11 Dec 2025 01:06:42 -0500, c186282 wrote:
On 12/10/25 22:17, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2025 05:16:26 -0500, c186282 wrote:
And yes, that stuff DOES still matter ... and not everybody is
running an i9 or equiv. Lots stick with rPIs and want to get the
most from them. My own New Laptop is i3 ..... runs cool, long
battery life, not a fan of high-rez video games, crappy net
bandwidth.
fwiw
XDG_SESSION_DESKTOP=LXDE-pi-labwc XDG_SESSION_TYPE=wayland
XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=labwc:wlroots
That's what you get from the box stock Raspberry Pi OS based on Debian
GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm).
And it's more than good enough for a Desktop too :-)
LXDE is my fave !
I had Lubuntu on the laptop that I moved to Mint. LXQt was okay.
There is a new sail freighter which has a few passenger cabins, butemissions-neoliner-origin-cargo-age-of-sail>
luxury and expensive. The Neoliner.
<https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/nov/19/shipping-carbon-
FOSS will be FOSS. Away from the major shit distros, there will always
be variety and grist for the technically inclined.
The new CDE, or Common Desktop Environment, is released:
https://www.phoronix.com/news/CDE-2.5.3-Desktop
I don't like it, but other might enjoy it.
I don't use DEs of any kind but this one is a tad ugly. It would
look better if it used Tk/Tcl instead of Motif.
Do the major shit distros include Motif? I doubt it because it's not compatible with that trendy junk Wayland.
CDE comes in source only, but the build uses the tried-and-true
"configure, make, make install" sequence. What could be easier?
There's none of the trendy junk meson, ninja, etc.
On Fri, 12 Dec 2025 12:15:37 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There is a new sail freighter which has a few passenger cabins, butemissions-neoliner-origin-cargo-age-of-sail>
luxury and expensive. The Neoliner.
<https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/nov/19/shipping-carbon-
Does it have the Thunberg stamp of approval?
Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
Because the "tools" are totally unnecessary.
Who are you to tell others what they should be using and what they
find useful?
What "tools" can a DE offer that cannot be provided by
various CLI or other software?
I use KDE and I like for example that I can click on URLs in text
windows and then get a popup whether I want to open that one in the
browser. I like that I have a graphical frontend to choose networks
and bring up and down my various VPN links. And I like that most of my software looks similar to each other and that I have some settings
that have the same effect on the majority of my programs.
Answer: None.
That's your opinion. Mark it as such.
Also, the DE requires an integrated software environment
that adds both bloat and insecurity. To link all the
DE applications together requires constantly running
"services" and that, IMO, is not a good idea and a complete
waste of computing resources.
Thankfully we nowadays have computers that are so vastly powerful that
it doesn't matter how "fat" our desktops are.
And, once a current browser is running, the memory footprint of KDE
compared with "frugal" desktops as lxfe or xfce doesn't matter any
more anyway.
You are an anonymous person who is still stuck in the 1990ies.
That's
your prerogative but you should not be running around shouting "YOU'RE
ALL WRONG AND MY WAY IS THE ONLY RIGHT ONE", that's ridiculous.
On Wed, 10 Dec 2025 10:30:19 +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
Thankfully we nowadays have computers that are so vastly powerful that...
...simple video encoding or a math simulation can bring them to their
knees.
it doesn't matter how "fat" our desktops are.
It does matter to those who want to understand and control their
machines.
In spite of your proclamations to the contrary, the PC is a very
simple machine and the GNU/Linux OS is equally simple.
You are an anonymous person who is still stuck in the 1990ies.
1990s? Heck, I am stuck in the 1960s. That was a time when
people did a lot more with a lot less.
And that's still a good example to follow.
They're STILL managing to cheat Dr. Moore ...
No. Dr. Moore was right, and nothing can make him wrong. He predicted
stuff only for 10 years. And he was right. Others took his name to a
give it to a law. But if the law at his name can stop to be right at
some time, it won't make him wrong.
On 13 Dec 2025 12:43:06 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
No. Dr. Moore was right, and nothing can make him wrong. He predicted
stuff only for 10 years. And he was right. Others took his name to a
give it to a law. But if the law at his name can stop to be right at
some time, it won't make him wrong.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
Idiot. Moore's Law is long dead and buried.
But the brilliant engineers at Intel have kept the progress alive
with the concepts of instruction pipelining and branch prediction.
These are fantastic ideas. They are so good that they have destroyed
the measure of an instruction cycle. It used to be possible to explicitly state that instruction X required Y clock cycles and to even time
an entire instruction chain. But not any more.
However, some bad actors have learned to exploit such processor
magic for nefarious ends. Ever hear of "Spectre?"
But such nefarious exploits apply only to public facing servers
and are totally irrelevant on standalone desktop workstations.
That does not stop the mainstream distros from crippling their
kernels with useless mitigations.
Brother, if you are not using Gentoo then please, please, run
to the nearest psycho ward.
We do thank you.
Farley Flud wrote:
On 13 Dec 2025 12:43:06 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
No. Dr. Moore was right, and nothing can make him wrong. He predicted
stuff only for 10 years. And he was right. Others took his name to a
give it to a law. But if the law at his name can stop to be right at
some time, it won't make him wrong.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
Idiot. Moore's Law is long dead and buried.
But the brilliant engineers at Intel have kept the progress alive
with the concepts of instruction pipelining and branch prediction.
These are fantastic ideas. They are so good that they have destroyed
the measure of an instruction cycle. It used to be possible to
explicitly
state that instruction X required Y clock cycles and to even time
an entire instruction chain. But not any more.
However, some bad actors have learned to exploit such processor
magic for nefarious ends. Ever hear of "Spectre?"
But such nefarious exploits apply only to public facing servers
and are totally irrelevant on standalone desktop workstations.
That does not stop the mainstream distros from crippling their
kernels with useless mitigations.
Brother, if you are not using Gentoo then please, please, run
to the nearest psycho ward.
We do thank you.
I would rather have worse cache efficiency by default than have the
majority of computers in the world be vulnerable to privilege bypass exploits capable of throwing literally all security out the window in
the presence of unaudited software, even sandboxed software
(automatically loaded javascript). Most people will not notice or care
about the minor performance degradation except maybe gamers and data scientists, and those people are upgrading to the newest hardware anyway with less vulnerabilities.
Don't underestimate the inability for system administrators at risk to
set up good security defaults. And don't think your data isn't valuable.
Yes, as the typical end user your threat model will look nothing like a large company holding confidential customer data, but that does not mean crippling an attack surface by making it unlikely to work is not a net positive for everyone.
If you REALLY don't care, turn those mitigations off, and then thank everyone else who, knowingly or not, keeps them turned on for making the internet usable with yours disabled.
You've got that last part backwards. Gentoo users belong in psych wards. :)
If you REALLY don't care, turn those mitigations off, and then thank everyone else who, knowingly or not, keeps them turned on for making the internet usable with yours disabled.
On 13 Dec 2025 12:43:06 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
No. Dr. Moore was right, and nothing can make him wrong. He predicted
stuff only for 10 years. And he was right. Others took his name to a
give it to a law. But if the law at his name can stop to be right at
some time, it won't make him wrong.
Idiot.
Moore's Law is long dead and buried.
But the brilliant engineers at Intel have kept the progress alive
with the concepts of instruction pipelining and branch prediction.
However, some bad actors have learned to exploit such processor
magic for nefarious ends.
Ever hear of "Spectre?"
But such nefarious exploits apply only to public facing servers
and are totally irrelevant on standalone desktop workstations.
Brother, if you are not using Gentoo
then please, please, run to the nearest psycho ward.
We do thank you.
Le 10-12-2025, Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> a écrit :
Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
Because the "tools" are totally unnecessary.
Who are you to tell others what they should be using and what they
find useful?
He's a no life, so he needs to control others lives to make him feel
alive. That doesn't work but it's all that drives him. You can't argue
with him. Either you have fun or you ignore him.
What "tools" can a DE offer that cannot be provided by
various CLI or other software?
I use KDE and I like for example that I can click on URLs in text
windows and then get a popup whether I want to open that one in the
browser. I like that I have a graphical frontend to choose networks
and bring up and down my various VPN links. And I like that most of my
software looks similar to each other and that I have some settings
that have the same effect on the majority of my programs.
You aren't answering his question. He's asking if KDE provides a tool
that grand you some control impossible to replicate with the CLI. Not if
it's easier or nicer to do. Only if it's possible.
Answer: None.
That's your opinion. Mark it as such.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Either a real one or a false one. If
you can't come with an example, he's right. I really don't see examples
of graphical tools which can't be done with CLI to manage your computer.
Now, if you are asking him to draw a picture with the command line, it's
a different story.
Now, considering the easiest way to do stuff to manage your computer is another question. I've used successfully the command line to make
changes on thousands of files which would have required me hours or days
to take care with a graphical tool with. I have no example of stuff
which would have been easier with a graphical tool. But for someone who doesn't know the CLI it wouldn't be so easy because he would need to
learn the right commands first.
It is easier to edit scripts in the GUI desktop than it is in the
console. Renouncing to the GUI desktop is ridiculous.
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