From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

I am looking for a *clean and mean* Prolog implementation: Dogelog at a cursory inspection (I have had a look at docs and code at www.xlog.ch)
looks like a pretty good candidate.

Just it quite bothers me that it is not "free software", so I would not
be able to fork it not even as an extreme measure. Rationale/any plans
to open it say under GPL (i.e. free for non-commercial use)?

BTW, any plans to implement a library like SWI's prolog_trace? <https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=prologtrace>
I am finding that quite useful for debugging.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

If you want something with a GNU license,
there is GNU Prolog:

http://www.gprolog.org/

According to wiki, it has these two licenses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License

Better use GNU Prolog if you want exactly some GNU license.

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

I am looking for a *clean and mean* Prolog implementation: Dogelog at a cursory inspection (I have had a look at docs and code at www.xlog.ch)
looks like a pretty good candidate.

Just it quite bothers me that it is not "free software", so I would not
be able to fork it not even as an extreme measure.  Rationale/any plans
to open it say under GPL (i.e. free for non-commercial use)?

BTW, any plans to implement a library like SWI's prolog_trace? <https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=prologtrace>
I am finding that quite useful for debugging.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

Web 2.0/3.0. Like if you write server code or client code
with the licensed software. It seems there are some
loopholes in GNU concerning Web 2.0/3.0.

ChatGPT tells me the following:

---------------------- cut here -----------------------

The Affero General Public License (AGPL) is a variant of
the GNU General Public License (GPL) designed specifically
for software that is used over a network, such as web
applications or SaaS (Software-as-a-Service) platforms.

It ensures that users accessing the software via a network
have the same freedoms as those who receive it directly.

Key Features of the AGPL:
Network Interaction Clause:

The AGPL includes an additional requirement not found
in the standard GPL. If you modify AGPL-licensed software
and allow users to interact with it over a network (e.g.,
through a web application), you must make the source code

of the modified version available to those users.

Focus on SaaS:

The AGPL closes the "SaaS loophole" found in the standard
GPL. Under the standard GPL, if you run modified software
on a server without distributing it, you're not obligated
to share your modifications. The AGPL changes this: network
access to the software is treated as a form of distribution.

Same Four Freedoms:

Like the GPL, the AGPL provides users with the freedoms to
run, study, modify, and redistribute the software.

Compatibility with the GPL:

Software under the AGPL is compatible with the GPL. However,
when combining AGPL and GPL code, the resulting work must
be licensed under the AGPL to maintain the stronger network clause.

Common Use Cases:

Web-based software, such as content management systems (CMS),
databases, or frameworks. SaaS platforms or services that
incorporate open-source components but need to respect the
AGPL's requirements for source code transparency.

In essence, the AGPL ensures that even when software is used
over a network, its freedoms and obligations remain intact
for the end users.

---------------------- cut here -----------------------

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

If you want something with a GNU license,
there is GNU Prolog:

http://www.gprolog.org/

According to wiki, it has these two licenses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License

Better use GNU Prolog if you want exactly some GNU license.

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

I am looking for a *clean and mean* Prolog implementation: Dogelog at
a cursory inspection (I have had a look at docs and code at
www.xlog.ch) looks like a pretty good candidate.

Just it quite bothers me that it is not "free software", so I would
not be able to fork it not even as an extreme measure.  Rationale/any
plans to open it say under GPL (i.e. free for non-commercial use)?

BTW, any plans to implement a library like SWI's prolog_trace?
<https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=prologtrace>
I am finding that quite useful for debugging.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

On 24/11/2024 00:30, Mild Shock wrote:

If you want something with a GNU license,
there is GNU Prolog:

I gave my rationale and asked for yours or any plans.

Anyway, thanks, I'll take that as your answer.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's more,
it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical sense:
alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme for me as
it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years minimum:
I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

Do you mean the idea to create a debugger
for Dogelog Player? You want to fork it and
then add the following:

BTW, any plans to implement a library like SWI's prolog_trace? <https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=prologtrace>
I am finding that quite useful for debugging.

I don't know whether it is allowed. The
typical scenario is rather to write a Tic Tac Toe,
and put it on the web. That is allowed by my

license. You could also ask for money from
end-users when they are using the Tic Tac Toe. About
the debugger I am not sure, my license has a clause:

Provided the programs add significant and
primary functionality. Not to be distributed
with additional software intended to
replace components.

So Tic Tac Toe as a primary functionality is
of course fine. About a debugger I don't know.
You might get a written permission from me.

A debugger is not included because how for
example should a web client application have
a debugger? Its not that SWI-Prologs prologtrace

trace automatically gives a Debug Adapter Protocol
(DAP) that would integrate into Chrome? So for Web 2.0/3.0
one has to anyway rethink debugging. I did this

rethinking already for formerly Jekejeke Prolog, and
might bring up some of the ideas again. But a Debug
Adapter Protocol (DAP) could be also prototyped with

SWI-Prolog. Like can you have SWI Prolog server and
start debugging. The stance there is even not think
about creating a DAP, but instead to go through

the normal terminal and the normal top-level
debugging commands, since SWI-Prolog includes
an SSH server. See here:

Using SSH to debug services and embedded Prolog https://www.swi-prolog.org/blog/sshd.md

But for Web 2.0/3.0 I don't whether this works as well.

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:30, Mild Shock wrote:

If you want something with a GNU license,
there is GNU Prolog:

I gave my rationale and asked for yours or any plans.

Anyway, thanks, I'll take that as your answer.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

The current work around is to first develop
the application with an ascii interface,
and debug it with lets say SWI-Prolog like here:

Prolog code for the tic-tac-toe game. [ASCII Console Version] https://www.dogelog.ch/littab/doclet/docs/15_sources/basic/example01/console.html

If you have done this cross development you
can bring it to the web, like here:

Prolog code for the tic-tac-toe game. [Browser Version] https://www.dogelog.ch/littab/doclet/docs/15_sources/basic/example03/board.html

You have still all the options to debug it web-ish,
like opening the chrome development tools, watch
all the things there, you can also use break points

there and stop event handlers and foreign functions
that access the web browser. So basically debugging
of the web GUI part happens mainly via:

Chrome DevTools is a set of web developer tools built
directly into the Google Chrome browser. DevTools lets
you edit pages on-the-fly and diagnose problems quickly,
which helps you build better websites, faster. https://developer.chrome.com/docs/devtools

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Do you mean the idea to create a debugger
for Dogelog Player? You want to fork it and
then add the following:

BTW, any plans to implement a library like SWI's prolog_trace? <https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=prologtrace>
I am finding that quite useful for debugging.

I don't know whether it is allowed. The
typical scenario is rather to write a Tic Tac Toe,
and put it on the web. That is allowed by my

license. You could also ask for money from
end-users when they are using the Tic Tac Toe. About
the debugger I am not sure, my license has a clause:

Provided the programs add significant and
primary functionality. Not to be distributed
with additional software intended to
replace components.

So Tic Tac Toe as a primary functionality is
of course fine. About a debugger I don't know.
You might get a written permission from me.

A debugger is not included because how for
example should a web client application have
a debugger? Its not that SWI-Prologs prologtrace

trace automatically gives a Debug Adapter Protocol
(DAP) that would integrate into Chrome? So for Web 2.0/3.0
one has to anyway rethink debugging. I did this

rethinking already for formerly Jekejeke Prolog, and
might bring up some of the ideas again. But a Debug
Adapter Protocol (DAP) could be also prototyped with

SWI-Prolog. Like can you have SWI Prolog server and
start debugging. The stance there is even not think
about creating a DAP, but instead to go through

the normal terminal and the normal top-level
debugging commands, since SWI-Prolog includes
an SSH server. See here:

Using SSH to debug services and embedded Prolog https://www.swi-prolog.org/blog/sshd.md

But for Web 2.0/3.0 I don't whether this works as well.

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:30, Mild Shock wrote:

If you want something with a GNU license,
there is GNU Prolog:

I gave my rationale and asked for yours or any plans.

Anyway, thanks, I'll take that as your answer.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

The recent version of library(misc/markup) allows
also to preview in ASCII what you would dynamically
insert into the Web Browser DOM.

But maybe I should more blog about these things.
But I am currently stuck with other problems. So
didn't have time to explain these debugging

methods in detail. But since relase 1.2.3 the
test case report generator also uses library(misc/markup).
So its already hardened more or less.

But these improvements of in library(misc/markup)
are there to support the ASCII <-> Browser Cycle.
For example you can inspect a prover HTML output in

ASCII via node.js and then go to the web, you even
don't need to change a single line of code.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

The current work around is to first develop
the application with an ascii interface,
and debug it with lets say SWI-Prolog like here:

Prolog code for the tic-tac-toe game. [ASCII Console Version] https://www.dogelog.ch/littab/doclet/docs/15_sources/basic/example01/console.html

If you have done this cross development you
can bring it to the web, like here:

Prolog code for the tic-tac-toe game. [Browser Version] https://www.dogelog.ch/littab/doclet/docs/15_sources/basic/example03/board.html

You have still all the options to debug it web-ish,
like opening the chrome development tools, watch
all the things there, you can also use break points

there and stop event handlers and foreign functions
that access the web browser. So basically debugging
of the web GUI part happens mainly via:

Chrome DevTools is a set of web developer tools built
directly into the Google Chrome browser. DevTools lets
you edit pages on-the-fly and diagnose problems quickly,
which helps you build better websites, faster. https://developer.chrome.com/docs/devtools

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Do you mean the idea to create a debugger
for Dogelog Player? You want to fork it and
then add the following:

BTW, any plans to implement a library like SWI's prolog_trace?
<https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=prologtrace>
I am finding that quite useful for debugging.

I don't know whether it is allowed. The
typical scenario is rather to write a Tic Tac Toe,
and put it on the web. That is allowed by my

license. You could also ask for money from
end-users when they are using the Tic Tac Toe. About
the debugger I am not sure, my license has a clause:

Provided the programs add significant and
primary functionality. Not to be distributed
with additional software intended to
replace components.

So Tic Tac Toe as a primary functionality is
of course fine. About a debugger I don't know.
You might get a written permission from me.

A debugger is not included because how for
example should a web client application have
a debugger? Its not that SWI-Prologs prologtrace

trace automatically gives a Debug Adapter Protocol
(DAP) that would integrate into Chrome? So for Web 2.0/3.0
one has to anyway rethink debugging. I did this

rethinking already for formerly Jekejeke Prolog, and
might bring up some of the ideas again. But a Debug
Adapter Protocol (DAP) could be also prototyped with

SWI-Prolog. Like can you have SWI Prolog server and
start debugging. The stance there is even not think
about creating a DAP, but instead to go through

the normal terminal and the normal top-level
debugging commands, since SWI-Prolog includes
an SSH server. See here:

Using SSH to debug services and embedded Prolog
https://www.swi-prolog.org/blog/sshd.md

But for Web 2.0/3.0 I don't whether this works as well.

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:30, Mild Shock wrote:

If you want something with a GNU license,
there is GNU Prolog:

I gave my rationale and asked for yours or any plans.

Anyway, thanks, I'll take that as your answer.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

That you have all Chrome DevTools options like here:

Chrome DevTools is a set of web developer tools built
directly into the Google Chrome browser. DevTools lets
you edit pages on-the-fly and diagnose problems quickly,
which helps you build better websites, faster. https://developer.chrome.com/docs/devtools

Since Dogelog Player is written in JavaScript and also
some of the libraries have usage of JavaScript written
foreign functions, you will not see any assembler.

This is unlike WASM Prolog systems where you will
probably see assembly instructions? This carries also
over if your write your own libraries and use JavaScript.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

The recent version of library(misc/markup) allows
also to preview in ASCII what you would dynamically
insert into the Web Browser DOM.

But maybe I should more blog about these things.
But I am currently stuck with other problems. So
didn't have time to explain these debugging

methods in detail. But since relase 1.2.3 the
test case report generator also uses library(misc/markup).
So its already hardened more or less.

But these improvements of in library(misc/markup)
are there to support the ASCII <-> Browser Cycle.
For example you can inspect a prover HTML output in

ASCII via node.js and then go to the web, you even
don't need to change a single line of code.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

The current work around is to first develop
the application with an ascii interface,
and debug it with lets say SWI-Prolog like here:

Prolog code for the tic-tac-toe game. [ASCII Console Version]
https://www.dogelog.ch/littab/doclet/docs/15_sources/basic/example01/console.html


If you have done this cross development you
can bring it to the web, like here:

Prolog code for the tic-tac-toe game. [Browser Version]
https://www.dogelog.ch/littab/doclet/docs/15_sources/basic/example03/board.html


You have still all the options to debug it web-ish,
like opening the chrome development tools, watch
all the things there, you can also use break points

there and stop event handlers and foreign functions
that access the web browser. So basically debugging
of the web GUI part happens mainly via:

Chrome DevTools is a set of web developer tools built
directly into the Google Chrome browser. DevTools lets
you edit pages on-the-fly and diagnose problems quickly,
which helps you build better websites, faster.
https://developer.chrome.com/docs/devtools

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Do you mean the idea to create a debugger
for Dogelog Player? You want to fork it and
then add the following:

BTW, any plans to implement a library like SWI's prolog_trace?
<https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=prologtrace>
I am finding that quite useful for debugging.

I don't know whether it is allowed. The
typical scenario is rather to write a Tic Tac Toe,
and put it on the web. That is allowed by my

license. You could also ask for money from
end-users when they are using the Tic Tac Toe. About
the debugger I am not sure, my license has a clause:

Provided the programs add significant and
primary functionality. Not to be distributed
with additional software intended to
replace components.

So Tic Tac Toe as a primary functionality is
of course fine. About a debugger I don't know.
You might get a written permission from me.

A debugger is not included because how for
example should a web client application have
a debugger? Its not that SWI-Prologs prologtrace

trace automatically gives a Debug Adapter Protocol
(DAP) that would integrate into Chrome? So for Web 2.0/3.0
one has to anyway rethink debugging. I did this

rethinking already for formerly Jekejeke Prolog, and
might bring up some of the ideas again. But a Debug
Adapter Protocol (DAP) could be also prototyped with

SWI-Prolog. Like can you have SWI Prolog server and
start debugging. The stance there is even not think
about creating a DAP, but instead to go through

the normal terminal and the normal top-level
debugging commands, since SWI-Prolog includes
an SSH server. See here:

Using SSH to debug services and embedded Prolog
https://www.swi-prolog.org/blog/sshd.md

But for Web 2.0/3.0 I don't whether this works as well.

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:30, Mild Shock wrote:

If you want something with a GNU license,
there is GNU Prolog:

I gave my rationale and asked for yours or any plans.

Anyway, thanks, I'll take that as your answer.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

Since it does not have a module system, it is
not meant for large scale development. Its more
meant to create Prolog applets. This is why

it is name is Dogelog "Player", its like a Video Player,
only it plays Prolog applets. Maybe will bring
something more large scale to the web, like for

example Service Workers, where you could have
larger things than only Prolog applets to the
client side. But this has not yet been done...

Bye

P.S.: The architecture of Ciao Prolog Playground
with its Worker is more something beyond Prolog applets.
Dogelog "Player" doesn't feature such an architecture currently.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's more,
it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme for me as
it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years minimum:
I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

with applets becoming completely unable to be run
by 2015–2017. Java applets were deprecated by
Java 9 in 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet

The above is also a reason why I had to give
up formerly Jekejeke Prolog which was based on Java.
But I didn't give it up immediately in 2017,

there was like a grace period until 2021, where
I also did experiments with CheerpJ. Somehow
the Corona Pandemic gave me time to rethink

applets and invent the idea of Dogelog Player.
Dogelog Player wasn't realized for Python,
its very first implementation was JavaScript only.

The other platform followed out of curiosity
and since the Dogelog Player architecture allows
easily adding backends, without changing much of

the libraries. That async/await will be important,
I saw already when using CheerpJ. But CheerpJ doesn't
offer the small footprint, that Dogelog Player Novacore

now offers. Even if I would reduce formerly Jekejeke
Prolog, I would be still bugged by the CheerpJ load.
Novacore on the other hand is a ISO core subset,

that is optimized to be small.

Bye

P.S.: But please don't tell the morons from ISPsystem
who are now paying for jekejeke.ch domain, some
hosting and CDN, that applets don't work anymore.

They should find out by themselves.

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Since it does not have a module system, it is
not meant for large scale development. Its more
meant to create Prolog applets. This is why

it is name is Dogelog "Player", its like a Video Player,
only it plays Prolog applets. Maybe will bring
something more large scale to the web, like for

example Service Workers, where you could have
larger things than only Prolog applets to the
client side. But this has not yet been done...

Bye

P.S.: The architecture of Ciao Prolog Playground
with its Worker is more something beyond Prolog applets.
Dogelog "Player" doesn't feature such an architecture currently.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's
more, it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical
sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme
for me as it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years
minimum: I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

The biggest morons on this planet are SO mods.
Especially Jean-François Fabre and Karl Knechtel
seem to have snail brains.

I explained in the past that Jekejeke Prolog
is phased out, they didn't understand it, and
judged my post deletion as vandalism and

rolled back the edits:

Post Undeleted by Jean-François Fabre
occurred Oct 30, 2021 at 20:01 https://stackoverflow.com/posts/12297451/revisions

I recently made a new attempt to explain
the idea of throw away prototype, which was
a gentel probing of their mindeset. Again

SO failed the test:

Making a question or answer for any other reason is harmful
to the goal of the site, because it clutters up search results. https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/432277/17524790

At least they noticed something is wrong like
"cluttered" search results. But the issue is even
not really throw away prototyping. Its just

changing technological circumstances with web 2.0/3.0
and stuff, that Java applets don't exist anymore and
many more factors. Maybe the SO mods believe in

a static world, but the world is not static, its
constantly changing, and a little agility is demanded.

What a bunch of complete morons.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

with applets becoming completely unable to be run
by 2015–2017. Java applets were deprecated by
Java 9 in 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet

The above is also a reason why I had to give
up formerly Jekejeke Prolog which was based on Java.
But I didn't give it up immediately in 2017,

there was like a grace period until 2021, where
I also did experiments with CheerpJ. Somehow
the Corona Pandemic gave me time to rethink

applets and invent the idea of Dogelog Player.
Dogelog Player wasn't realized for Python,
its very first implementation was JavaScript only.

The other platform followed out of curiosity
and since the Dogelog Player architecture allows
easily adding backends, without changing much of

the libraries. That async/await will be important,
I saw already when using CheerpJ. But CheerpJ doesn't
offer the small footprint, that Dogelog Player Novacore

now offers. Even if I would reduce formerly Jekejeke
Prolog, I would be still bugged by the CheerpJ load.
Novacore on the other hand is a ISO core subset,

that is optimized to be small.

Bye

P.S.: But please don't tell the morons from ISPsystem
who are now paying for jekejeke.ch domain, some
hosting and CDN, that applets don't work anymore.

They should find out by themselves.

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Since it does not have a module system, it is
not meant for large scale development. Its more
meant to create Prolog applets. This is why

it is name is Dogelog "Player", its like a Video Player,
only it plays Prolog applets. Maybe will bring
something more large scale to the web, like for

example Service Workers, where you could have
larger things than only Prolog applets to the
client side. But this has not yet been done...

Bye

P.S.: The architecture of Ciao Prolog Playground
with its Worker is more something beyond Prolog applets.
Dogelog "Player" doesn't feature such an architecture currently.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's
more, it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical
sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme
for me as it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years
minimum: I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

Its all fun, until somebody gets hurt:

Fuck Around and Find Out https://www.tiktok.com/@rogerskaer/video/7147844411915783470

I am not the owner of jekejeke.ch anymore.
So if somebody gets some bruises because of
some phishing, I cannot be held responsible.

Bye

The liability is on people like Jean-François
Fabre, Karl Knechtel, etc.. who prevented the delete:

ChatGPT tells me:

Yes, a website can potentially be held liable for
linking to phishing websites, but it depends on the
jurisdiction and specific circumstances.

Here's a high-level summary:

Factors That Determine Liability:

Knowledge and Intent:

If the website knowingly links to phishing websites or
facilitates malicious activity, it could be liable for
aiding and abetting fraudulent acts.

Negligence:

If the website failed to vet the links it provides and
this negligence caused harm to users, liability might
arise under certain laws (e.g., negligence claims).

Consumer Protection Laws:

In some jurisdictions, consumer protection laws require
website operators to ensure their content does not lead
to harm. Linking to a phishing site might be seen as a
violation if due diligence wasn't performed.

Safe Harbor Provisions:

Many countries have laws (e.g., the DMCA in the U.S.,
or EU's e-Commerce Directive) that protect websites
from liability for user-generated content if they act
quickly to remove harmful links when notified.

Terms of Service (ToS):

Websites often include disclaimers in their ToS to
mitigate liability for external links. However, courts
may not always honor these disclaimers if negligence or
malicious intent is proven.

Reducing Liability Risks:

Regular Link Audits: Monitor and verify external links.

Clear Disclaimers: State explicitly that the website is
not responsible for third-party links.

Prompt Action on Reports: Respond swiftly to reports of
malicious links.

Collaborate with Authorities: If malicious links are
identified, working with cybersecurity and legal authorities
shows good faith.

Ultimately, liability will depend on whether the website
owner acted responsibly and in good faith to prevent harm.

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

The biggest morons on this planet are SO mods.
Especially Jean-François Fabre and Karl Knechtel
seem to have snail brains.

I explained in the past that Jekejeke Prolog
is phased out, they didn't understand it, and
judged my post deletion as vandalism and

rolled back the edits:

Post Undeleted by Jean-François Fabre
occurred Oct 30, 2021 at 20:01 https://stackoverflow.com/posts/12297451/revisions

I recently made a new attempt to explain
the idea of throw away prototype, which was
a gentel probing of their mindeset. Again

SO failed the test:

Making a question or answer for any other reason is harmful
to the goal of the site, because it clutters up search results. https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/432277/17524790

At least they noticed something is wrong like
"cluttered" search results. But the issue is even
not really throw away prototyping. Its just

changing technological circumstances with web 2.0/3.0
and stuff, that Java applets don't exist anymore and
many more factors. Maybe the SO mods believe in

a static world, but the world is not static, its
constantly changing, and a little agility is demanded.

What a bunch of complete morons.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

with applets becoming completely unable to be run
by 2015–2017. Java applets were deprecated by
Java 9 in 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet

The above is also a reason why I had to give
up formerly Jekejeke Prolog which was based on Java.
But I didn't give it up immediately in 2017,

there was like a grace period until 2021, where
I also did experiments with CheerpJ. Somehow
the Corona Pandemic gave me time to rethink

applets and invent the idea of Dogelog Player.
Dogelog Player wasn't realized for Python,
its very first implementation was JavaScript only.

The other platform followed out of curiosity
and since the Dogelog Player architecture allows
easily adding backends, without changing much of

the libraries. That async/await will be important,
I saw already when using CheerpJ. But CheerpJ doesn't
offer the small footprint, that Dogelog Player Novacore

now offers. Even if I would reduce formerly Jekejeke
Prolog, I would be still bugged by the CheerpJ load.
Novacore on the other hand is a ISO core subset,

that is optimized to be small.

Bye

P.S.: But please don't tell the morons from ISPsystem
who are now paying for jekejeke.ch domain, some
hosting and CDN, that applets don't work anymore.

They should find out by themselves.

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Since it does not have a module system, it is
not meant for large scale development. Its more
meant to create Prolog applets. This is why

it is name is Dogelog "Player", its like a Video Player,
only it plays Prolog applets. Maybe will bring
something more large scale to the web, like for

example Service Workers, where you could have
larger things than only Prolog applets to the
client side. But this has not yet been done...

Bye

P.S.: The architecture of Ciao Prolog Playground
with its Worker is more something beyond Prolog applets.
Dogelog "Player" doesn't feature such an architecture currently.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's
more, it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical
sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme
for me as it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years
minimum: I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

Its all fun, until somebody gets hurt:

The more you fuck around, the more you're gonna find out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qEcm43Lx3c

I am not the owner of jekejeke.ch anymore.
So if somebody gets some bruises because of
some phishing, I cannot be held responsible.

Bye

The liability is on people like Jean-François
Fabre, Karl Knechtel, etc.. who prevented the delete:

ChatGPT tells me:

Yes, a website can potentially be held liable for
linking to phishing websites, but it depends on the
jurisdiction and specific circumstances.

Here's a high-level summary:

Factors That Determine Liability:

Knowledge and Intent:

If the website knowingly links to phishing websites or
facilitates malicious activity, it could be liable for
aiding and abetting fraudulent acts.

Negligence:

If the website failed to vet the links it provides and
this negligence caused harm to users, liability might
arise under certain laws (e.g., negligence claims).

Consumer Protection Laws:

In some jurisdictions, consumer protection laws require
website operators to ensure their content does not lead
to harm. Linking to a phishing site might be seen as a
violation if due diligence wasn't performed.

Safe Harbor Provisions:

Many countries have laws (e.g., the DMCA in the U.S.,
or EU's e-Commerce Directive) that protect websites
from liability for user-generated content if they act
quickly to remove harmful links when notified.

Terms of Service (ToS):

Websites often include disclaimers in their ToS to
mitigate liability for external links. However, courts
may not always honor these disclaimers if negligence or
malicious intent is proven.

Reducing Liability Risks:

Regular Link Audits: Monitor and verify external links.

Clear Disclaimers: State explicitly that the website is
not responsible for third-party links.

Prompt Action on Reports: Respond swiftly to reports of
malicious links.

Collaborate with Authorities: If malicious links are
identified, working with cybersecurity and legal authorities
shows good faith.

Ultimately, liability will depend on whether the website
owner acted responsibly and in good faith to prevent harm.

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

The advice is: Prompt Action on Reports:
Respond swiftly to reports of malicious links.
Was a big problem for SO. They showed a high
degree of incompetence and stupidity.

One mod told me I should suggest edits.
Guess what I can only suggest 5 edits per day
with my SO user level. Thats the opposite of
"prompt action" and "swiftly".

LoL

Bye

P.S.: Unfortunety this advice is behind moderator
chat wall, I cannot send a link. But I made a few
screenshots. Just to have something to laugh at
every day from now on.

For those who have moderator privilige, here is
the link. I first showed them a query how to
find the links:

https://stackexchange.com/search?q=url:jekejeke.ch&pagesize=50

Then the moron mod responded:

"Do you not see an Edit button below the post?
Even if your edit isn't applied immediately,
it will go through a review queue where other
users will approve it. Or, we will go through
your suggested edits and approve them ourselves." https://stackoverflow.com/users/message/127965#127965


Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Its all fun, until somebody gets hurt:

The more you fuck around, the more you're gonna find out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qEcm43Lx3c

I am not the owner of jekejeke.ch anymore.
So if somebody gets some bruises because of
some phishing, I cannot be held responsible.

Bye

The liability is on people like Jean-François
Fabre, Karl Knechtel, etc.. who prevented the delete:

ChatGPT tells me:

Yes, a website can potentially be held liable for
linking to phishing websites, but it depends on the
jurisdiction and specific circumstances.

Here's a high-level summary:

Factors That Determine Liability:

Knowledge and Intent:

If the website knowingly links to phishing websites or
facilitates malicious activity, it could be liable for
aiding and abetting fraudulent acts.

Negligence:

If the website failed to vet the links it provides and
this negligence caused harm to users, liability might
arise under certain laws (e.g., negligence claims).

Consumer Protection Laws:

In some jurisdictions, consumer protection laws require
website operators to ensure their content does not lead
to harm. Linking to a phishing site might be seen as a
violation if due diligence wasn't performed.

Safe Harbor Provisions:

Many countries have laws (e.g., the DMCA in the U.S.,
or EU's e-Commerce Directive) that protect websites
from liability for user-generated content if they act
quickly to remove harmful links when notified.

Terms of Service (ToS):

Websites often include disclaimers in their ToS to
mitigate liability for external links. However, courts
may not always honor these disclaimers if negligence or
malicious intent is proven.

Reducing Liability Risks:

Regular Link Audits: Monitor and verify external links.

Clear Disclaimers: State explicitly that the website is
not responsible for third-party links.

Prompt Action on Reports: Respond swiftly to reports of
malicious links.

Collaborate with Authorities: If malicious links are
identified, working with cybersecurity and legal authorities
shows good faith.

Ultimately, liability will depend on whether the website
owner acted responsibly and in good faith to prevent harm.

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

But I had also a lot of fun, drawing verbally pictures
of their complete incompetence and stupidity. Here
you see the contrary of "prompt action" and "swiftly",

just complete morons occupied with themselves.
Especially ipodtouch0218 is the typical messenger
of brain damage. Not to mention chivracq, probably

just leaning out of his cradle, demonstrating his baby brain:

- If a URL across many answers are compromised, then
you should just edit out the malicious link from the
posts (or make a post about it on meta if widespread enough),
repeatedly vandalizing the posts entirely was not the way
to solve this. – ipodtouch0218
CommentedNov 19 at 16:09

@ipodtouch0218 I made 3 posts on meta, they were all ignored
and deleted. I didn't vandalize a single thing. Because I don't
own the posts. I connot edit or delete them. I wrote in this
post "edit suggested", but you ignored that. – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:11

@ipodtouch0218 Just more demontstration how unfit meta.SE
and meta.SO is to deal with such situations. Zero customer
orientation. Total crap performance. – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:12

I must say the website operator that took down the website, was 100%
more professional than any of the moderators here. Total disaster
meta.SE and meta.SO. – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:13

The other meta posts were definitely not at all clear about
what the issue was, I only figured it out after the meta last
post was deleted by happening to run into your vandalism
suggested edits in the review queues. Your suggested
edits are vandalism as they completely delete the answer,
instead of just removing the malicious URLs. – ipodtouch0218
CommentedNov 19 at 16:14

Strange that your Posts each time look like Poems written in
Alexandrines... – chivracq
CommentedNov 19 at 16:14

@ipodtouch0218 Nobody asked constructive questions, just
like you: Accusations, harassament, thats all. Nothing useful.
You wouldn't survice in a real operator job one day. Things
would fly in your face the first hour. Debris would be all
over the place. – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:14

@chivrarq would play the uculele while the server room is
burning. LoL – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:19

My claim that your edits constitute "vandalism" is based on
Stack Exchange's own definition: "damages or destroys the
content of the post". A post that just says "I suggest a
complete delete of this answer" definitely isn't an answer.
Just because something is outdated / irrelevant doesn't mean
it should be deleted. I'm not sure what I said that you think
would be considered harassment, and I don't get what you mean
by a "real operator job". I'm not a moderator, if that's your
assumption. – ipodtouch0218
CommentedNov 19 at 16:20

We have been overbearing in the amount of support we've tried
to give you in our correspondence. We've tried to explain to
you that the way to coordinate the removal of rotted links
across the site, when it affects a large number of posts, is
to post here and get community support to make the necessary
edits, then act on it when it's sufficiently supported.
Throughout this experience you have exhibited zero effort to
follow the processes we've described, instead deriding us
for our lack of support, and stating that you'll quit. – Spevacus
CommentedNov 19 at 16:21

I am not deriding anybody. There is clear evidence of complete
lack of understanding, or even a minimal effort to understand
anything. You don't understand what a throw away prototype
means and what digital right management means. You don't
understand that there is no legacy, nothing. – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:23

Ruben, your previous meta posts were -extremely- unclear. I had
no idea your last one was about a compromised external link on
existing SO posts... If you want to report something like
that, keep it simple: "Several posts link to website.com,
that site is now compromised. What can we do to fix this?"
That's all you needed. – Cerbrus
CommentedNov 19 at 16:23

What does "throw away prototype" have to do with a compromised
site? – Cerbrus
CommentedNov 19 at 16:23

You are too late for the party. You could have suggested that
a few hours ago. But I don't think hat any formal measures
would solve the problem. The problem is deep inside the
philosophy of stackexchange. Which doesn't work with
throw away prototypes. – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:24

@Cerbrus About "throw away prototype" see the thead I
openened, that was deleted. its extremly relevant. – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:25

Buddy, your previous "thread" was extremely unclear.
That's the problem. If you want to report a broken or
compromised link, then just do that. Don't bring other
unrelated concepts into it... – Cerbrus
CommentedNov 19 at 16:26

@Cerbrus From what I can gather, QP claims to be the
previous owner/maintainer of the compromised website and
that they've since abandoned it. Hence it's a "thrown-away
prototype". I assume the justification for outright deleting
answers rather than editing would be that answers will never
be relevant, because their "prototype" cannot be obtained
legally anymore: "If somebody reproduces this solution, he is
using an invalid license" (Not that an answer being irrelevant
has ever been a valid justification for vandalism) – ipodtouch0218
CommentedNov 19 at 16:27

Okay, now you're just being rude. Ruben, it's clear you're
frustrated with how this went, but please be open to our
feedback. A lot of users were trying to help you, but you're
just dismissing everyone as "incompetent". That's not
helping anyone. – Cerbrus
CommentedNov 19 at 16:29

@ipodtouch0218 False accussations again. I am not able to vandalize
anything. I cannot edit or delete anything. The bitrot is 5-15 years
old. Don't you get it? I am not the owner of it. – Rúben Dias
CommentedNov 19 at 16:29

@ipodtouch0218 ooooooooh. He owned the link, in the past? – Cerbrus
CommentedNov 19 at 16:30

@RúbenDias I strongly suggest you take a step back to cool down.
Insulting people isn't going to help anyone, you least of all. – Cerbrus
CommentedNov 19 at 16:30

I own the company, the threat was an imposter of my company. I don't own
the jekejeke.ch domain. The jekejeke.ch domain was pointing to a
phishing site. The delete meta posts explicitly say phishing site.

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/432279/17524790

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

The advice is: Prompt Action on Reports:
Respond swiftly to reports of malicious links.
Was a big problem for SO. They showed a high
degree of incompetence and stupidity.

One mod told me I should suggest edits.
Guess what I can only suggest 5 edits per day
with my SO user level. Thats the opposite of
"prompt action" and "swiftly".

LoL

Bye

P.S.: Unfortunety this advice is behind moderator
chat wall, I cannot send a link. But I made a few
screenshots. Just to have something to laugh at
every day from now on.

For those who have moderator privilige, here is
the link. I first showed them a query how to
find the links:

https://stackexchange.com/search?q=url:jekejeke.ch&pagesize=50

Then the moron mod responded:

"Do you not see an Edit button below the post?
Even if your edit isn't applied immediately,
it will go through a review queue where other
users will approve it. Or, we will go through
your suggested edits and approve them ourselves." https://stackoverflow.com/users/message/127965#127965

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Its all fun, until somebody gets hurt:

The more you fuck around, the more you're gonna find out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qEcm43Lx3c

I am not the owner of jekejeke.ch anymore.
So if somebody gets some bruises because of
some phishing, I cannot be held responsible.

Bye

The liability is on people like Jean-François
Fabre, Karl Knechtel, etc.. who prevented the delete:

ChatGPT tells me:

Yes, a website can potentially be held liable for
linking to phishing websites, but it depends on the
jurisdiction and specific circumstances.

Here's a high-level summary:

Factors That Determine Liability:

Knowledge and Intent:

If the website knowingly links to phishing websites or
facilitates malicious activity, it could be liable for
aiding and abetting fraudulent acts.

Negligence:

If the website failed to vet the links it provides and
this negligence caused harm to users, liability might
arise under certain laws (e.g., negligence claims).

Consumer Protection Laws:

In some jurisdictions, consumer protection laws require
website operators to ensure their content does not lead
to harm. Linking to a phishing site might be seen as a
violation if due diligence wasn't performed.

Safe Harbor Provisions:

Many countries have laws (e.g., the DMCA in the U.S.,
or EU's e-Commerce Directive) that protect websites
from liability for user-generated content if they act
quickly to remove harmful links when notified.

Terms of Service (ToS):

Websites often include disclaimers in their ToS to
mitigate liability for external links. However, courts
may not always honor these disclaimers if negligence or
malicious intent is proven.

Reducing Liability Risks:

Regular Link Audits: Monitor and verify external links.

Clear Disclaimers: State explicitly that the website is
not responsible for third-party links.

Prompt Action on Reports: Respond swiftly to reports of
malicious links.

Collaborate with Authorities: If malicious links are
identified, working with cybersecurity and legal authorities
shows good faith.

Ultimately, liability will depend on whether the website
owner acted responsibly and in good faith to prevent harm.

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

Let me recap:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

a community that works on the Prolog system itself?
But I am not 100% whether this is true, I saw
an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

Maybe there will be suddently a new release? An
indicator that it is really dead could be their
GitHub issues and GitHub commits.

https://github.com/didoudiaz/gprolog

Last commit 12 months ago but a lot of new issues.
Thats really bad. Thats is "no support" right?

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's more,
it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme for me as
it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years minimum:
I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

Is ZIG based on GNU license. Does it matter?
Their GitHub looks extremly lively:

https://github.com/ziglang/zig

They use "The MIT License (Expat)". 957
contributors. Last commit 2 hours ago.

3k issues. Woa!

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Let me recap:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

a community that works on the Prolog system itself?
But I am not 100% whether this is true, I saw
an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

Maybe there will be suddently a new release? An
indicator that it is really dead could be their
GitHub issues and GitHub commits.

https://github.com/didoudiaz/gprolog

Last commit 12 months ago but a lot of new issues.
Thats really bad. Thats is "no support" right?

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's
more, it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical
sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme
for me as it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years
minimum: I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

On 24/11/2024 04:25, Mild Shock wrote:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

I just need a product that works properly, that isn't just spaghetti
code at all levels, and from a team/company that doesn't pull the rug,
or sabotages, or black mails me as soon as I am invested enough. I
could even pay for that, as we used to do for technology when software
and developing software was still a professional endeavour. And GNU has little to do with any failure, except the failure of humanity that
humanity is: rather everybody is an MS/Google/Monsanto employee by now.

an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

That Unicode even enters these discussions is a joke. I'll just end up writing my own Prolog engine: a GPL-licensed Prolog engine in JS/Wasm,
and an open project proper. Or maybe I'll just switch to Mizar... You
stay tuned: next black Friday.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

On 24/11/2024 08:54, Julio Di Egidio wrote:

Or maybe I'll just switch to Mizar...

Eh, I meant Mercury, not Mizar:
<https://github.com/Mercury-Language/mercury>

Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

I don't feel adressed by you critique. Since I
think the idea of an Prolog engine is the wrong
approach. The idea should be a Prolog language,

like the ISO core standard. SWI-Prolog did everything
to be different and better from the ISO core standard.
And ended up with a bloathed engine that runs

non-portable code. I did a little bit the same error
with formerly Jekejeke Prolog, it did not pay attention
to apply the KISS principle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

If would continue developing formerly Jekejeke Prolog
as I did in the past, I would introduce a module
class loader with advent of JDK 9, which would give

an additional layer of grouping to the Prolog modules.
Dogelog Player tries to do something else with its
Novacore. It tries to minimize the Prolog language

implemented by the Prolog engine. If you develop against
an idea of a Prolog language and not against an idea of
a Prolog engine, chances are higher that stay agile and

can easily switch Prolog engines, and protect your investment.

Bye

P.S.: Also with novacore its very hard. I wrote an
Novacore adapter for GNU Prolog:

https://www.novacuor.ch/srctab/doclet/docs/07_envir/adapter/gnu/package.html

But all Unicode test cases fail. Since GNU Prolog
cannot do Unicode.

But Unicode is part of Novacore.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 04:25, Mild Shock wrote:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

I just need a product that works properly, that isn't just spaghetti
code at all levels, and from a team/company that doesn't pull the rug,
or sabotages, or black mails me as soon as I am invested enough.  I
could even pay for that, as we used to do for technology when software
and developing software was still a professional endeavour.  And GNU has little to do with any failure, except the failure of humanity that
humanity is: rather everybody is an MS/Google/Monsanto employee by now.

an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

That Unicode even enters these discussions is a joke.  I'll just end up writing my own Prolog engine: a GPL-licensed Prolog engine in JS/Wasm,
and an open project proper.  Or maybe I'll just switch to Mizar...  You stay tuned: next black Friday.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

How good does the GNU Prolog Novacore adapter
score? It scores more badly in the test suite
that tests the libraries since it also tests the

web client and server functionality:

Folder gnu j js py cnt
calculate 42 136 136 136 136
common 88 175 175 173 175
extend 117 134 134 133 134
Total 247 445 445 442 445

But the GNU Prolog Novacore adapter fares
quite well in the core testing itself, where
not some libraries are tested:

Folder gnu j js py cnt
arithmetic 215 225 224 224 225
control 159 171 171 171 171
extra 45 127 127 123 127
stream 62 84 83 84 85
structure 222 229 229 229 229
Total 703 836 834 831 837

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

I don't feel adressed by you critique. Since I
think the idea of an Prolog engine is the wrong
approach. The idea should be a Prolog language,

like the ISO core standard. SWI-Prolog did everything
to be different and better from the ISO core standard.
And ended up with a bloathed engine that runs

non-portable code. I did a little bit the same error
with formerly Jekejeke Prolog, it did not pay attention
to apply the KISS principle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

If would continue developing formerly Jekejeke Prolog
as I did in the past, I would introduce a module
class loader with advent of JDK 9, which would give

an additional layer of grouping to the Prolog modules.
Dogelog Player tries to do something else with its
Novacore. It tries to minimize the Prolog language

implemented by the Prolog engine. If you develop against
an idea of a Prolog language and not against an idea of
a Prolog engine, chances are higher that stay agile and

can easily switch Prolog engines, and protect your investment.

Bye

P.S.: Also with novacore its very hard. I wrote an
Novacore adapter for GNU Prolog:

https://www.novacuor.ch/srctab/doclet/docs/07_envir/adapter/gnu/package.html

But all Unicode test cases fail. Since GNU Prolog
cannot do Unicode.

But Unicode is part of Novacore.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 04:25, Mild Shock wrote:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

I just need a product that works properly, that isn't just spaghetti
code at all levels, and from a team/company that doesn't pull the rug,
or sabotages, or black mails me as soon as I am invested enough.  I
could even pay for that, as we used to do for technology when software
and developing software was still a professional endeavour.  And GNU
has little to do with any failure, except the failure of humanity that
humanity is: rather everybody is an MS/Google/Monsanto employee by now.

an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

That Unicode even enters these discussions is a joke.  I'll just end
up writing my own Prolog engine: a GPL-licensed Prolog engine in
JS/Wasm, and an open project proper.  Or maybe I'll just switch to
Mizar...  You stay tuned: next black Friday.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

Example that violates KISS: https://prolog-lang.org/ImplementersForum/0105-write-options.html

In Novacore, I have only introduced two new
write options priority/1 and format/1. They are
releavant for answer substitution display
and listing/1 formatting.

My deepest whish is for example to have
format/1 not as part of the core write options.
But this is very difficult to archive.
Should listing/1 sit in its own library,

and have a clone of the write routine? Its
easier to enhance the existing write routine
in the core and add some format/1 logic,
than have two write routines.

Quite a annonying problem to solve this
separation of concern. But maybe I should try
again, and can move listing/1 together with
format/1 write option into a separate library

that is not part of the core? Who knows...

Bye

P.S.: Some Prolog systems have do not have a listing/1
implementation. Try doing listing/1 in Scryer Prolog,
last time I looked they didn't have such a built-in.

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

How good does the GNU Prolog Novacore adapter
score? It scores more badly in the test suite
that tests the libraries since it also tests the

web client and server functionality:

Folder    gnu    j    js    py    cnt
calculate    42    136    136    136    136
common    88    175    175    173    175
extend    117    134    134    133    134
Total    247    445    445    442    445

But the GNU Prolog Novacore adapter fares
quite well in the core testing itself, where
not some libraries are tested:

Folder    gnu    j    js    py    cnt
arithmetic    215    225    224    224    225
control    159    171    171    171    171
extra    45    127    127    123    127
stream    62    84    83    84    85
structure    222    229    229    229    229
Total    703    836    834    831    837

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

I don't feel adressed by you critique. Since I
think the idea of an Prolog engine is the wrong
approach. The idea should be a Prolog language,

like the ISO core standard. SWI-Prolog did everything
to be different and better from the ISO core standard.
And ended up with a bloathed engine that runs

non-portable code. I did a little bit the same error
with formerly Jekejeke Prolog, it did not pay attention
to apply the KISS principle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

If would continue developing formerly Jekejeke Prolog
as I did in the past, I would introduce a module
class loader with advent of JDK 9, which would give

an additional layer of grouping to the Prolog modules.
Dogelog Player tries to do something else with its
Novacore. It tries to minimize the Prolog language

implemented by the Prolog engine. If you develop against
an idea of a Prolog language and not against an idea of
a Prolog engine, chances are higher that stay agile and

can easily switch Prolog engines, and protect your investment.

Bye

P.S.: Also with novacore its very hard. I wrote an
Novacore adapter for GNU Prolog:

https://www.novacuor.ch/srctab/doclet/docs/07_envir/adapter/gnu/package.html


But all Unicode test cases fail. Since GNU Prolog
cannot do Unicode.

But Unicode is part of Novacore.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 04:25, Mild Shock wrote:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

I just need a product that works properly, that isn't just spaghetti
code at all levels, and from a team/company that doesn't pull the
rug, or sabotages, or black mails me as soon as I am invested
enough.  I could even pay for that, as we used to do for technology
when software and developing software was still a professional
endeavour.  And GNU has little to do with any failure, except the
failure of humanity that humanity is: rather everybody is an
MS/Google/Monsanto employee by now.

an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

That Unicode even enters these discussions is a joke.  I'll just end
up writing my own Prolog engine: a GPL-licensed Prolog engine in
JS/Wasm, and an open project proper.  Or maybe I'll just switch to
Mizar...  You stay tuned: next black Friday.

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

On 24/11/2024 12:38, Mild Shock wrote:

I don't feel adressed by you critique. Since I
think the idea of an Prolog engine is the wrong
approach. The idea should be a Prolog language,
like the ISO core standard.

The ISO standard is *broken*, not just totally *inadequate* and totally *impractical*. Which of course is a contribution to, but is rather
orthogonal and additional to the problem of the sorry state of pretty
much the whole implementation compartment. And yet another side of that
coin is how it is all hijacked essentially by marketers, the very
rationale that goes with what it is, what it is good for, and how to use and/or learn it. Happy you who are fine to keep playing that game.

SWI-Prolog did everything
to be different and better from the ISO core standard.
And ended up with a bloathed engine that runs
non-portable code. I did a little bit the same error
with formerly Jekejeke Prolog, it did not pay attention
to apply the KISS principle:

SWI-Prolog remains one of the best available of the non-commercial ones:
it does start failing under heavy duty, plus indeed in some even
critical areas it has been informed by decisions I couldn't agree less
with, but it's comparatively a reasonably decent product, and comes with
tons of libraries, a module system and an online package system, support
for code documentation and testing, native extensibility, constraint programming, and what-not: the whole shenanigan pretty much, and if it
had a JS runtime proper it would super. We are lucky that it exists,
publicly available, and kept alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

The level of incompetence in our field is shocking: <https://architectando.blogspot.com/2012/01/to-keep-it-simple-you-need-to-be-smart.html>

If you develop against
an idea of a Prolog language and not against an idea of
a Prolog engine, chances are higher that stay agile and
can easily switch Prolog engines, and protect your investment.

That was not even true once upon a time, that one can just develop for a "language". Then again, happy who is simply oblivious: maybe.

(EOD: I am done bashing and go back to building.)

-Julio

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

What do you mean by that? I don't understand
your flat earth conspiracy theories that are
now entering the discussion.

Are these hijackers with us, or maybe aliens that
landed with an UFO, or do you have an example of
hijacking something for marketing?

Note: Jekejeke Prolog is not an example, since
it was phased out. You cannot hijack Unicorns
that don't exist. Or maybe one can do it in your

fantasy? It was already phased out in 2021:

The Jekejeke Prolog runtime library **was** an interpreter
only implementation of Prolog written in 100% Java. [...]
The website www.jekejeke.ch has been retracted, and
links are defunct.
https://stackoverflow.com/tags/jekejeke/info

I don't know what the domain squaters of
jekejeke.ch will do. Their meta tag says:

"Text: Entdecken Sie die besten ausländischen
Online-Casinos in der Schweiz! Genießen Sie
spannende Spiele, attraktive Boni und sichere Einzahlungen.
Spielen Sie jetzt und erleben Sie erstklassiges Online-Glücksspiel
mit internationalen Anbietern. Ihr Abenteuer beginnt hier!" http://www.jekejeke.ch/

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 12:38, Mild Shock wrote:
coin is how it is all hijacked essentially by marketers, the very

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog


If I translate the meta tag to english I get:

"Text: Discover the best foreign online casinos in Switzerland!
Enjoy exciting games, attractive bonuses and secure deposits.
Play now and experience world-class online gambling with
international providers. Your adventure begins here!"
https://www.jekejeke.ch/

So looks like a kind of betting offices scheme:

Yes, betting offices can be used as a vehicle for
money laundering by criminal organizations, including
the mafia. They provide opportunities to disguise
illicit gains as legitimate income, leveraging their
high cash flow and minimal regulatory oversight in
some regions. Here's how it often works:

Placement: Criminals deposit dirty money by
purchasing large amounts of betting slips or
placing high-stake bets, which can later
be cashed out.

Layering: They manipulate bets to ensure some
"wins," creating the appearance of legitimate income.

Integration: Once the money has been "won," it
appears clean and can be deposited into the banking
system without raising suspicion.

Additionally:

Online betting platforms provide anonymity and
global reach, making detection more difficult.
Shell companies linked to betting establishments
may further obscure the trail. Governments and
financial institutions are increasingly aware of
these schemes, with stricter regulations like
"Know Your Customer" (KYC) and reporting suspicious
transactions helping to mitigate such practices.

However, enforcement varies significantly by jurisdiction.

Mild Shock schrieb:

What do you mean by that? I don't understand
your flat earth conspiracy theories that are
now entering the discussion.

Are these hijackers with us, or maybe aliens that
landed with an UFO, or do you have an example of
hijacking something for marketing?

Note: Jekejeke Prolog is not an example, since
it was phased out. You cannot hijack Unicorns
that don't exist. Or maybe one can do it in your

fantasy? It was already phased out in 2021:

The Jekejeke Prolog runtime library **was** an interpreter
only implementation of Prolog written in 100% Java. [...]
The website www.jekejeke.ch has been retracted, and
links are defunct.
https://stackoverflow.com/tags/jekejeke/info

I don't know what the domain squaters of
jekejeke.ch will do. Their meta tag says:

"Text: Entdecken Sie die besten ausländischen
Online-Casinos in der Schweiz! Genießen Sie
spannende Spiele, attraktive Boni und sichere Einzahlungen.
Spielen Sie jetzt und erleben Sie erstklassiges Online-Glücksspiel
mit internationalen Anbietern. Ihr Abenteuer beginnt hier!" http://www.jekejeke.ch/

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 12:38, Mild Shock wrote:
coin is how it is all hijacked essentially by marketers, the very

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog


Interesting plot twist, Erlang got big with Gaming.
You still find traces of this history:

A curated list of companies using Erlang in
production, organized by industry.
https://erlang-companies.org/

2006 Evolution Gaming is founded and
revolutionises the European live dealer platform
https://www.evolution.com/

But the squatting of jekejeke.ch doesn't look like
they want to explore Dogelog Player as a successor to Erlang.

LoL

P.S.: I hope Joe Armstrong died on natural causes,
and wasn't sinked into a lake with beton shoes.

P.P.S.: The sad fact is, that there are people who
sympathize with Mafia and Robin Hood style persona.

I do not endorse money loundering or sympathize.

Mild Shock schrieb:

If I translate the meta tag to english I get:

"Text: Discover the best foreign online casinos in Switzerland!
Enjoy exciting games, attractive bonuses and secure deposits.
Play now and experience world-class online gambling with
international providers.  Your adventure begins here!" https://www.jekejeke.ch/

So looks like a kind of betting offices scheme:

Yes, betting offices can be used as a vehicle for
money laundering by criminal organizations, including
the mafia. They provide opportunities to disguise
illicit gains as legitimate income, leveraging their
high cash flow and minimal regulatory oversight in
some regions. Here's how it often works:

Placement: Criminals deposit dirty money by
purchasing large amounts of betting slips or
placing high-stake bets, which can later
be cashed out.

Layering: They manipulate bets to ensure some
"wins," creating the appearance of legitimate income.

Integration: Once the money has been "won," it
appears clean and can be deposited into the banking
system without raising suspicion.

Additionally:

Online betting platforms provide anonymity and
global reach, making detection more difficult.
Shell companies linked to betting establishments
may further obscure the trail. Governments and
financial institutions are increasingly aware of
these schemes, with stricter regulations like
"Know Your Customer" (KYC) and reporting suspicious
transactions helping to mitigate such practices.

However, enforcement varies significantly by jurisdiction.

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

Hi,

Maybe a new Wild West is knocking on the door?
Now that Donald Trump is new president of the USA.

Good Luck! LoL

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Interesting plot twist, Erlang got big with Gaming.
You still find traces of this history:

A curated list of companies using Erlang in
production, organized by industry.
https://erlang-companies.org/

2006 Evolution Gaming is founded and
revolutionises the European live dealer platform
https://www.evolution.com/

But the squatting of jekejeke.ch doesn't look like
they want to explore Dogelog Player as a successor to Erlang.

LoL

P.S.: I hope Joe Armstrong died on natural causes,
and wasn't sinked into a lake with beton shoes.

P.P.S.: The sad fact is, that there are people who
sympathize with Mafia and Robin Hood style persona.

I do not endorse money loundering or sympathize.

--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114