• Wall

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to All on Fri Dec 13 07:56:02 2024

    From "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone":

    --------------
    "Welcome," said Hagrid, "to Diagon Alley."

    He grinned at Harry's amazement. They stepped through the archway. Harry looked quickly over his shoulder and saw the archway shrink instantly back into solid wall.
    --------------

    Why is "solid wall" without "a" article? It is a countable noun, isn't it?

    Bye, All!
    Alexander Koryagin

    ---
    * Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/360.0)
  • From Mortar M.@1:124/5016 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Dec 13 00:42:31 2024
    Re: Wall
    By: Alexander Koryagin to All on Fri Dec 13 2024 07:56:02

    Why is "solid wall" without "a" article? It is a countable noun, isn't it?

    I'd just say, "oops" and call it a day.
    --- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
    * Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (1:124/5016)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Dec 12 23:54:35 2024
    Hi, Alexander -- on Dec 13 2024 at 07:56, you wrote:

    He grinned at Harry's amazement. They stepped through the archway.
    Harry looked quickly over his shoulder and saw the archway shrink
    instantly back into solid wall.
    --------------

    Why is "solid wall" without "a" article? It is a countable noun,
    isn't it?

    I can't give you an answer -- it's just a way of writing!

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Dec 17 10:54:57 2024
    Hi Alexander,

    13.12.2024 11:56:02, Alexander Koryagin <Alexander.Koryagin@p0.f360.n221.z2.fidonet.org> wrote:

    He grinned at Harry's amazement. They stepped through the archway.
    Harry looked quickly over his shoulder and saw the archway shrink instantly back into solid wall. --------------
    Why is "solid wall" without "a" article? It is a countable noun,
    isn't it?

    I can tell that in this case it "kind of" isn't. It's "solid wall" as an
    idea (or type) of vertical surface, not one separate wall, neither one
    of four wall in a room or something, you know what I mean? I'd suggest
    you have a peek at context.reverso.net and look around for examples and
    ideas of how words or expressions are used in written English (I find
    this site very handy).

    In the following phrases we can see the same "absence" of articles:

    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.


    --
    "A closed mouth gathers no foot."
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    * Origin: www.wfido.ru (2:5023/24.4222)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Gleb Hlebov on Thu Dec 19 11:04:24 2024

    Hi, Gleb Hlebov!
    I read your message from 17.12.2024 13:54


    In the following phrases we can see the same "absence" of
    articles:
    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.

    Poor examples IMHO.

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says bluntly - wall is a countable noun.

    air is not
    ground is not.

    Bye, Gleb!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2024

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/360.0)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Dec 19 13:56:02 2024
    Hi Alexander,

    19.12.2024 15:04:24, Alexander Koryagin wrote:

    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.
    Poor examples IMHO.

    Could be. But you get the idea, don't you?

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says bluntly - wall is a countable noun.

    Here we go again. "Pie" or "Cake" are countable nouns as well, but
    we're also free to say

    "I want Cherry Pie", or,
    "For Gods' sake, how can you not love Cake?"

    air is not
    ground is not.

    They're not, technically, although could be used with indefinite
    articles.

    Same with "town", BTW:

    "He's out of town", or,
    "Tony's back in town, let's pay him a visit".

    *Grok?*


    --
    "Hearing nuns' confessions is like being stoned to death with
    popcorn." -- Fulton Sheen.
    --- InterSquish NNTP Server/FTN Gate
    * Origin: www.wfido.ru (2:5023/24.4222)
  • From Ed Vance@1:2320/105 to Gleb Hlebov on Thu Dec 19 18:38:54 2024

    Hi Alexander,

    13.12.2024 11:56:02, Alexander Koryagin <Alexander.Koryagin@p0.f360.n221.z2.fidonet.org> wrote:

    I can tell that in this case it "kind of" isn't. It's "solid wall" as an
    idea (or type) of vertical surface, not one separate wall, neither one
    of four wall in a room or something, you know what I mean? I'd suggest
    you have a peek at context.reverso.net and look around for examples and
    ideas of how words or expressions are used in written English (I find
    this site very handy).

    In the following phrases we can see the same "absence" of articles:

    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.

    --
    "A closed mouth gathers no foot."
    --- InterSquish NNTP Server/FTN Gate
    * Origin: www.wfido.ru (2:5023/24.4222)


    context.reverso.net

    Thanks, gotta have a look at that URL.
    Ed
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Gleb Hlebov on Mon Dec 23 08:24:22 2024

    Hi, Gleb Hlebov!
    I read your message from 19.12.2024 16:56

    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.
    Poor examples IMHO.

    Could be. But you get the idea, don't you?

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says bluntly -
    wall is a countable noun.

    Here we go again. "Pie" or "Cake" are countable nouns as well,
    but we're also free to say

    "I want Cherry Pie", or,
    "For Gods' sake, how can you not love Cake?"

    Well, let's treat "wall" as "cake". Although, if we again look into Longman dictionary we'll see that it says bluntly that
    pie /paɪ/ noun [uncountable and countable] ;)

    The Great Chinese wall is "wall" or "a wall" if I approach to it?

    Bye, Gleb!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2024

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/360.0)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Dec 24 16:51:20 2024
    Hi Alexander,

    Mon 23 Dec 2024 at 08:24, you wrote to me:

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says bluntly -
    wall is a countable noun.
    Here we go again. "Pie" or "Cake" are countable nouns as well,
    but we're also free to say
    "I want Cherry Pie", or,
    "For Gods' sake, how can you not love Cake?"
    Well, let's treat "wall" as "cake". Although, if we again look into Longman dictionary we'll see that it says bluntly that pie /paɪ/ noun [uncountable and countable] ;)

    Do you own a paper copy? I can't open the website at the moment.

    Again, as you may surmise, using articles is tricky. It's kind of a "fuzzy" subject for those with different language backgrounds. I believe even French and Deutsch have some differences in this regard with English, let alone Russian (or even some more "exotic" ones).

    I'd say that you rely too much on dictionaries and try to over-formalise your approach to language learning, while in real life, in fiction, newspapers/magazines, talk shows etc., it may at times look a bit different.

    In our case I'd say it's an "object vs. substance" thing.
    Here are some instances from a website I find suitable:

    "Brick" as substance/material:

    "Drilling into brick is a key DIY skill, needed for all kinds of home
    improvement projects." ...

    "You'll require a masonry drill bit for drilling into brick." ...

    "If you're drilling into a softer brick and don't need to
    make too deep a hole, you may..." -- wait... it's no longer the same
    substance here, neither a flaw in the brickwork but a "different
    kind of brick material".

    "Hold your drill straight and level when drilling into brick(1) - some
    drills come with spirit levels built-in. Starting slowly, drill into
    the brick(2), pushing the drill towards the wall." -- okay, (1) is a
    "brick as generalised material"; (2) is the "stuff" that you're now
    interacting with physically.

    I hope it makes sense (no big deal if it doesn't though).

    The Great Chinese wall is "wall" or "a wall" if I approach to it?

    It can only be referred to as THE Wall, given its singular and unique nature (the same as the Moon, the Earth's only natural satellite). No other options here. :-)


    ... Error #010: Illegal error. Do not get this error
    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5
    * Origin: Microsuxx, Inc. (2:5023/24.4222)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Gleb Hlebov on Sat Dec 28 19:42:35 2024
    Hi, Gleb! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    Again, as you may surmise, using articles is tricky.

    Yes, I've noticed over the years that my Russian correspondents tend to have difficulty with articles in English. Based on what little I understand of the Russian language I figure I'd have a very similar problem there.... :-)


    I'd say that you rely too much on dictionaries and try
    to over-formalise your approach to language learning

    !? I conclude your preferred learning styles differ. Alexander has been actively involved here for a long time & what he's doing seems to work for him. I probably own more dictionaries & refer to them more often than a lot of other people do. I'd like to think I help my readers use them more efficiently
    ... but you may not have been here long enough to notice I say on occasion "Did you continue reading as far as definition #12, where I found the answer?" :-))


    in real life, in fiction, newspapers/magazines, talk
    shows etc., it may at times look a bit different.

    If you want to see & hear native speakers saying "would of never" in our local news or some advertiser telling you the XYZ Company is best qualified to update your windows because they are "real perfessionals" it certainly does. I don't rely on these sources for examples of good English usage...


    In our case I'd say it's an "object vs. substance" thing.

    (which any dictionary I'd give house room to will probably tell you)


    Here are some instances from a website I find suitable:

    "Brick" as substance/material:

    "Drilling into brick is a key DIY skill, needed for
    all kinds of home improvement projects."

    ... but I understand & appreciate that native speakers tend to learn by example while dictionaries cut these things short. We all have our talents. If you know how how to find material such as the above, I'm most grateful. :-)


    The Great Chinese wall is "wall" or "a wall" if I approach
    to it?

    It can only be referred to as THE Wall, given its singular and
    unique nature (the same as the Moon, the Earth's only natural
    satellite). No other options here. :-)

    To Alexander I'd say "I were to approach it" or "I approached it"... to you I'd say something more like "You've never heard of Hadrian's Wall?" :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Dec 30 19:40:28 2024
    Hi Ardith, long time no talk!

    On 28.12.24 23:42:35, you wrote:

    Again, as you may surmise, using articles is tricky.
    Yes, I`ve noticed over the years that my Russian correspondents
    tend to have difficulty with articles in English. Based on what
    little I understand of the Russian language I figure I`d have a
    very similar problem there.... :-)

    Absolutely! Articles as a concept are non-existent in some languages,
    and for many learners it's quite hard to get their mind around them.
    Language and mentality barriers do exist, unfortunately. Things do get
    lost in translation. I believe it may not be as bad for us English
    tutees as for you English speakers who, for whatever reason, would want
    to start learning Russian just to make a terrifying discovery of nearly
    70 various inflection forms (AFAIK) they'd have to learn, or memorize.

    I probably own more dictionaries & refer to them more often than
    a lot of other people do. I`d like to think I help my readers use
    them more efficiently
    ... but you may not have been here long enough to notice I say on occasion "Did you continue reading as far as definition #12,
    where I found the answer?" :-))

    Dictionaries are indispensable, I have nothing against them whatsoever
    :-) In our case, as far as the subject is concerned, is it correct to
    assume that a countable noun may be allowed to exist in the story
    without an article attached to it? Or, on the other hand, a "strictly" uncountable noun may be used with the indef. article in a number of
    cases? It seems one can't tell by simply looking it up in a dictionary.

    If you want to see & hear native speakers saying "would of never"
    in our local news or some advertiser telling you the XYZ Company
    is best qualified to update your windows because they are "real perfessionals" it certainly does. I don`t rely on these sources
    for examples of good English usage...

    Would of never... Well, I've had my share of those, and Could-of-been's
    too, reading various posts on forums/boards back in the day. I even
    remember asking somewhere, "I wonder if this could be a contemporary
    acceptable form of writing it?" :-)

    As with that XYZ company, maybe they're just good average IT
    professionals, not perfectionists? That is, if you mean "Windows" the
    OS, I assume, not windows in the house. (Are those even "updatable"?)

    We have to admit, not any source is reliable in this regard. And as a
    side note, I've been listening to a great song earlier today, and it's
    titled "Shoulda": "I shoulda let go... bla-bla... etc." (It's British
    BTW).

    In our case I`d say it`s an "object vs. substance" thing.
    (which any dictionary I`d give house room to will probably tell
    you)

    Nice one! :-) "...give house room to" is not about "a room in the
    house", but "room" as in "Make room!", right? House room = house space.

    If you know how how to find material such as the above, I`m most
    grateful. :-)

    Search engines now make it easier than ever, that's for sure. Some of
    us are just sleeping on such an opportunity.

    ... to you I`d say something more like "You`ve never heard of
    Hadrian`s Wall?" :-Q

    I think I haven't until just now, but Hadrian is/was a proper noun
    (thus no articles needed)? Anyway, given its present condition,
    shouldn't it be more aptly termed "The leftovers of Hadrian's Wall"?


    --
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age
    eighteen." -- Albert Einstein
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    * Origin: www.wfido.ru (2:5023/24.4222)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Gleb Hlebov on Mon Dec 30 19:12:48 2024
    Hi, Gleb -- on Dec 30 2024 at 19:40, you wrote:


    I think I haven't until just now, but Hadrian is/was a proper noun
    (thus no articles needed)? Anyway, given its present condition,
    shouldn't it be more aptly termed "The leftovers of Hadrian's Wall"?

    There's a lot of the Wall left standing, and some being restored: www.mickledore.co.uk/blog/walking-hadrians-wall-guide



    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Dallas Hinton on Sun Jan 5 23:20:17 2025
    Hi Dallas!

    On 30.12.24 23:12:48, Dallas Hinton wrote:

    I think I haven't until just now, but Hadrian is/was a proper noun
    (thus no articles needed)? Anyway, given its present condition,
    shouldn't it be more aptly termed "The leftovers of Hadrian's
    Wall"?
    There's a lot of the Wall left standing, and some being restored: www.mickledore.co.uk/blog/walking-hadrians-wall-guide

    My bad, it is now actually "The Reconstruction of H's Wall" :-)


    --
    Estridge's Law: No matter how large and standardized the
    marketplace is, IBM can redefine it.
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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Jan 16 20:26:19 2025
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Gleb Hlebov:

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says
    bluntly- 'wall is a countable noun.

    Okay. I seldom refer to it, unless my Free Dictionary cites it... but although I have some concerns about whether this is a British or American source nowadays I understand why you may find it helpful. I can usually determine from how a word is defined whether it's countable, uncountable, or both.

    Your original question pertained to an example in which you saw "solid wall" used without an article. It's not quite enough to set off the alarm bells in my head, and I do find it growing on me... but judging by the responses I see here I'd probably tend to follow my mother's advice: "If in doubt, don't." :-Q


    The Great Chinese wall is "wall" or "a wall" if
    I approach to it?
    /since "approach" means "come near to", this "to" is unnecessary

    According to my dictionaries "if" = a preposition used in conditional sentences or clauses, in which case the verb tenses may not be quite what you're accustomed to seeing elsewhere. I'd call this object the Great Wall of China... but I understand what you mean. I reckon what matters here is that there may be other large walls (such as Hadrian's Wall & the Berlin Wall) which are important from a historical & geographical standpoint to many people & where I'd say "the" in the absence of a possessive noun because nothing else fits the description.

    Now, as for the verb tenses:
    If I were to win the lottery (which I don't expect to) I might
    visit any number of other places. If I won the lottery (and I
    believe there's a good chance I'd have unlimited funds because
    math isn't my forte) I'd buy an old castle & add a pipe organ.

    If I were travelling in China, I'd ask the locals what they call this thing. If you were to approach it you could do the same. But I understand only a few words in Chinese & I'm not sure whether or not they use articles.... :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Jan 17 13:42:20 2025
    Hi Ardith,

    Thu 16 Jan 2025 at 20:26, you wrote to Alexander Koryagin:

    If I were travelling in China, I'd ask the locals what they call this thing. If you were to approach it you could do the same.
    But I understand only a few words in Chinese & I'm not sure whether or
    not they use articles.... :-))

    As a matter of fact they don't have articles.


    ... All things are possible. Except skiing through a revolving door
    --- dED+/ˆ‚– 1.1.5
    * Origin: Microsuxx, Inc. (2:5023/24.4222)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Gleb Hlebov on Tue Jan 28 23:20:23 2025
    Hi, Gleb! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    it may not be as bad for us English tutees as for you
    English speakers who, for whatever reason, would want to
    start learning Russian just to make a terrifying discovery
    of nearly 70 various inflection forms (AFAIK) they'd have
    to learn, or memorize.

    Good grief! I don't know how many we have in English, but I've heard from apparently intelligent & well-educated Fidonetters in Z2 that they gave up trying to learn German as I did when I was required to memorize 25 prepositions taking three different cases in the ninth lesson. The English language ditched many inflections long ago. OTOH the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes left their mark. The basic vocabulary is tantalizingly familiar at times... so much so that when I told a neighbour who had recently travelled in Europe what I've just told you he said "What cases?" and I had to haul out one of my old textbooks. I get the impression he found the language easy when nobody was marking his grammar. :-)


    is it correct to assume that a countable noun may be allowed
    to exist in the story without an article attached to it? Or,
    on the other hand, a "strictly" uncountable noun may be used
    with the indef. article in a number of cases? It seems one
    can't tell by simply looking it up in a dictionary.

    It may be an overgeneralization to assume one can always do this, but you mentioned "home" in your next message. My Canadian dictionaries offer many examples showing how folks use it in the singular & the plural, with or without articles, and if other dictionaries don't I can easily add ten or twelve.

    Teachers often remark that before one can ask the right questions one must know at least half of the answers. Once you've cited "home" I realize the same principle applies to "school" and "church" to a more limited extent. Such words denote the names of places but may include social groups or concepts too.


    Would of never... Well, I've had my share of those, and Could-
    of-been's too, reading various posts on forums/boards back in
    the day. I even remember asking somewhere, "I wonder if this
    could be a contemporary acceptable form of writing it?" :-)

    The FREE DICTIONARY regards "would of" as a misspelling of "would've" ... according to an entry dated 2024... and that's my take on it. It is fairly common among kids in grade eight, but most people seem to know better later on. In grade eight I made notes re what I thought I had heard in French class. :-Q


    As with that XYZ company, maybe they're just good average IT
    professionals, not perfectionists? That is, if you mean
    "Windows" the OS, I assume, not windows in the house. (Are
    those even "updatable"?)

    In this case the company does replace house windows & patio doors. I think it may be to their credit if they're perfectionists in their line of work
    ... but I can't help being doubtful when they want me to think of them as "real professionals" although they can't spell or pronounce the word correctly. :-))


    I've been listening to a great song earlier today, and it's
    titled "Shoulda": "I shoulda let go... bla-bla... etc." (It's
    British BTW).

    Years ago one our Canadian readers here... who was also a musician... typed "coulda, woulda, shoulda". I interpreted his words as roughly equivalent to "hindsight is always 20/20" & according to the above dictionary I was right. It's a "stock expression" used informally, but if teenagers & others who aren't clear on the concept spend far more $$$ downloading popular music to their cell phones than I would I can't blame singers or songwriters for knowing which side their bread is buttered on. Musicians have to make a living somehow... [grin].


    "...give house room to" is not about "a room in the house",
    but "room" as in "Make room!", right?

    Right.


    ... to you I`d say something more like "You`ve never heard
    of Hadrian`s Wall?" :-Q

    I think I haven't until just now, but Hadrian is/was a
    proper noun (thus no articles needed)?

    Yes. Hadrian was the Roman emperor who ordered its construction.


    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by
    age eighteen." -- Albert Einstein

    Uh-huh. Some folks evidently believe that once they've finished high school they needn't bother learning any more... [weary sigh].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Jan 30 11:47:32 2025

    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 29.01.2025 02:20

    Would of never... Well, I've had my share of those, and
    Could- of-been's too, reading various posts on
    forums/boards back in the day. I even remember asking
    somewhere, "I wonder if this could be a contemporary
    acceptable form of writing it?" :-)

    The FREE DICTIONARY regards "would of" as a misspelling of
    "would've" ... according to an entry dated 2024... and that's
    my take on it. It is fairly common among kids in grade eight,
    but most people seem to know better later on. In grade eight I
    made notes re what I thought I had heard in French class. :-Q


    Very soon it will be over. The AI helper answers us any such question and gives as hundred kilograms of examples. ;-)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2025

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/360.0)