• A pie

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to All on Wed Oct 4 15:58:14 2023


    Hi, All!

    I learned recently that an English pie can be countable and uncountable. What does the latter mean? For instance, I read:

    "It’s hot in here, isn’t it?” asked Constance the next day. She was sitting at the dining room table with the other children, two of whom were eating pie and ice cream with expressions of immense satisfaction."

    I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand uncountable pie. ;-)


    PS: It was The Prisoner’s Dilemma, by Trenton

    Bye, All!
    Alexander Koryagin

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  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Oct 5 21:10:28 2023
    Alexander Koryagin:

    I learned recently that an English pie can be countable
    and uncountable.

    Absolutely.

    I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't
    understand uncountable pie. ;-)

    In English, they are the same. Both `cream' and `pie' can
    denote the substance, rather than the thing it constitutes.
    In /Danse Macabre/ Steven Kings quotes an old radio show
    where the jealous dentist locked an adulterer in his dental
    chair and "let out some of lover-boy". Yikes! but
    uncountable.

    For more pleasant example, heed Rosemary Clooney sing "I will
    give you candy!" in /Come on a-My House/.

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Oct 6 16:01:58 2023

    Hi, Anton Shepelev! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 05.10.2023 20:10

    I learned recently that an English pie can be countable and
    uncountable.
    Absolutely.
    I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand
    uncountable pie. ;-)

    In English, they are the same. Both `cream' and `pie' can denote
    the substance, rather than the thing it constitutes. In /Dasee
    Macabre/ Steven Kings quotes an old radio show where the jealous
    dentist locked an adulterer in his dental chair and "let out some
    of lover-boy". Yikes! but uncountable.

    The absence of "a" article after "of" is another different English song. :) You can read some of it here:
    https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/313276/is-there-a-solid-reference-rule-on-when-not-to-put-article-after-of

    or here: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/104910/zero-article-after-of-in-a-change-of-place

    For more pleasant example, heed Rosemary Clooney sing "I will give
    you candy!" in /Come on a-My House/.

    I heard that in songs the Grammar rules are not necessary at all. The rhyme is more important. ;-)

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Oct 6 16:53:54 2023
    Alexander Koryagin:

    The absence of "a" article after "of" is another
    different English song.

    This need not be a specific subject in English. The general
    rule for the indefinite artcile applies -- that it is never
    used with uncountable nouns, and `of' often makes the noun
    uncountable by denoting a part taked out of the whole. The
    whole is thus no longer atomic, invivisible, but is just
    substance: "a piece of manuscript."

    For more pleasant example, heed Rosemary Clooney sing
    "I will give you candy!" in /Come on a-My House/.

    I heard that in songs the Grammar rules are not
    necessary at all. The rhyme is more important. ;-)

    I do not believe in poetic license (uncountable). The term
    is of recent origin, and invented, first, to save
    grammarians analysis of some correct yet unusual sytax, and
    second -- to let modern writers defend their sloppy English.
    Bethink thyself how many examples in old grammar manuals are
    in verse, including Milton's and Shakespeare's, for example:

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/14006/14006-h/14006-h.htm

    Rosemary Clooney was a white American songstress of Italian
    origin. Flourishing in the 1950s, she was recorded by major
    U.S. labels, which must then respect their audience of
    conservative white Americans, very unlike black R&B singers,
    who were allowed to express themselves with peculiar
    grammaer in thick New-Orleans patois:

    She don't fancy to dancin'
    And she don't care 'bout movie shows
    She don't fancy to dancin'
    And she don't care 'bout movie shows
    She just love her daddy
    And she go wherever he goes
    ------------------------------------
    Love don't love nobody
    ------------------------------------
    I wanna walk you home.
    Please, let me walk you home.
    I wants(!) to walk you home.
    Please, let me walk you home.
    I wish I was(!) the lucky guy
    To walk you right on down the isle.

    Verse or no verse, that is genuine Creole speech, not poetic
    license.

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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Nov 24 21:02:14 2023
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    I learned recently that an English pie can be countable
    and uncountable.


    Uh-huh. And since you just happen to know an English major who earned her university fees working in the restaurant business...



    What does the latter mean?


    ... I can tell you the average pie is about the size of a dinner plate & may be divided into roughly six or eight pieces, depending on various factors such as what one's customers want &/or how many mouths one is expected to feed. Nowadays I know of a few places around here where one can get individual sizes. Maybe one couldn't years ago, but you didn't say when your excerpt was written. Singletons & childless couples were less common when I was growing up.... :-))



    She was sitting at the dining room table with the other
    children, two of whom were eating pie and ice cream with
    expressions of immense satisfaction."

    I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand
    uncountable pie. ;-)


    Where I come from, ice cream is measured by volume or by weight... and I see you understand that. When you visit a bakery, however, you may notice it offers "pies, cakes, and pastries" for sale. You can purchase one or more such items as you wish or make them yourself at home. Either way I see that in this example there are probably one or more grownups & at least two kids who need to be fed, in which case the thrifty housewife would cut a large pie into servings (or pieces or portions) of whatever size she deems to be most appropriate. :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Nov 28 16:02:54 2023

    Hi, Ardith Hinton - Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 25.11.2023 00:02

    She was itting at the diining room table with the other
    children two of whom werre eating pie and ice cream with
    expressions of immense satisfaction."
    I undersand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand
    uncountable pie. ;-)
    here I come fromm, ice cream is measured by volume or
    by weight.. and I see you understand that. When you visit a
    bakery, hoever, you may nootice it offers "pies, cakes, and pastries"
    for sale. You can purchasee one or more such items as you wish or make them yourslf at home. Eitther way I see that in this example there are probably oe or more grownuups & at least two kids who need to be
    fed, in whch case the thriifty housewife would cut a large pie into servings (r pieces or porttions) of whatever size she deems to be most appropriate. :-Q

    Well, a pie can be cut into portions, but anyway it should theoretically remained a pie. FMPOV. ;)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Nov 30 09:59:22 2023

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 25.11.2023 00:02

    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    I learned recently that an English pie can be countable
    and uncountable.


    Uh-huh. And since you just happen to know an English major who earned her university fees working in the restaurant business...


    bla bla bla



    What does the latter mean?


    ... I can tell you the average pie is about the size of a dinner plate & may be divided into roughly six or eight pieces, depending on various factors such as what one's customers want &/or how many mouths one is expected to feed. Nowadays I know of a few places around here where one can get individual sizes. Maybe one couldn't years ago, but you didn't say when your excerpt was written. Singletons & childless couples were less common when I was growing up.... :-))


    bla bla bla



    She was sitting at the dining room table with the other
    children, two of whom were eating pie and ice cream with
    expressions of immense satisfaction."

    I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand
    uncountable pie. ;-)


    Where I come from, ice cream is measured by volume or by weight... and I see you understand that. When you visit a bakery, however, you may notice it offers "pies, cakes, and pastries" for sale. You can purchase one or more such items as you wish or make them yourself at home. Either way I see that in this example there are probably one or more grownups & at least two kids who need to be fed, in which case the thrifty housewife would cut a large pie into servings (or pieces or portions) of whatever size she deems to be most appropriate. :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)



    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Dec 1 08:15:52 2023

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 25.11.2023 00:02

    The original not-distorted text can be taken from https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D0mZIqVjqP0lv3k6se462mj5i15b2W4z/view?usp=drive_link

    I learnedrecently that ann English pie can be countable and
    uncountable.

    Uh-huh. An since you just happen to know an English major who
    earned heruniversity fees working in the restaurant business...

    What does the latter mean?

    bla-bla-bla

    ... I can ell you the averrage pie is about the size of a dinner
    plate & ma be divided intoo roughly six or eight pieces, depending
    on variousfactors such as what one's customers want &/or how many
    mouths oneis expected to ffeed. Nowadays I know of a few places
    around her where one can gget individual sizes. Maybe one couldn't
    years ago,but you didn't ssay when your excerpt was written.
    Singletons& childless coupples were less common when I was growing
    up.... :-))

    bla-bla-bla

    She was stting at the dinning room table with the other children,
    two of whm were eating piie and ice cream with expressions of
    immense satisfaction."

    I understnd uncountable iice cream, but I don't understand
    uncountable pie. ;-)

    Where I coe from, ice creaam is measured by volume or by weight...
    and I see ou understand thhat. When you visit a bakery, however,
    you may noice it offers "ppies, cakes, and pastries" for sale. You
    can purchae one or more suuch items as you wish or make them
    yourself a home. Either waay I see that in this example there are
    probably oe or more grown--ups & at least two kids who need to be
    fed, in whch case the thriifty housewife would cut a large pie into servings (r pieces or porttions) of whatever size she deems to be
    most appropriate.:-Q

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Dec 1 10:56:32 2023
    Hello, Alexander!

    Fri 01-12-2023 08:15, Alexander Koryagin (2:221/6) ᠫ() Ardith Hinton:

    I understnd uncountable iice cream, but I don't understand
    [...]
    Where I coe from, ice creaam is measured by volume or by
    [...]

    The bug seems to persist, as of now.


    Regards, Gleb | Fri 01-12-2023, 10:56
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  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360 to Gleb Hlebov on Fri Dec 1 09:33:02 2023
    On 01.12.2023 6:56, Gleb Hlebov wrote:

    Fri 01-12-2023 08:15, Alexander Koryagin (2:221/6) ᠫ() Ardith Hinton:

    I understnd uncountable iice cream, but I don't understand
    [...]
    Where I coe from, ice creaam is measured by volume or by
    [...]

    The bug seems to persist, as of now.

    Yes. :( Seems that lines starting with space will get bad. It has something to do with 64bit because the same code compiled in 32bit system seems ok.

    'Tommi

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    * Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Tommi Koivula on Fri Dec 1 13:08:42 2023
    Hello, Tommi!

    <Fri 01-12-2023 09:33>, Tommi Koivula <2:221/360> vs. me:

    [...]
    The bug seems to persist, as of now.
    Yes. :( Seems that lines starting with space will get bad. It has something to do with 64bit because the same code compiled in 32bit
    system seems ok.

    I only noticed that shortly after exchanging quote-replies with A.K. (happens on a second iteration of quoting from his end), and never with anyone else from your origin, so far. Could it be some sort of software clash?


    WBR, Gleb <Fri 01-12-2023 13:07>
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  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/6 to Gleb Hlebov on Sat Dec 2 18:39:26 2023
    On 01.12.2023 9:08, Gleb Hlebov wrote:

    I only noticed that shortly after exchanging quote-replies with A.K.
    (happens on a second iteration of quoting from his end), and never with anyone else from your origin, so far. Could it be some sort of software clash?

    I'm not sure if I broke something in my SmapiNNTPd to fix UTF-8 compatibility some years ago, but I reverted some changes now. Lets see how this works from now on. :D

    Better not to post lines starting with space...

    'Tommi

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    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Dec 5 15:56:24 2023
    Hello Alexander,

    <Tue 28-11-2023 16:02> Alexander Koryagin <2:221/6> vs. Ardith Hinton:

    Well, a pie can be cut into portions, but anyway it should
    theoretically remained a pie. FMPOV. ;)

    Sometimes it may not work this way. E.g. talking about food, you can hear something along the lines of:

    "...Nutella has become out comfort food, we like it
    with banana or pretzels."

    Many types of food (besides pie, cake, ice cream, candy etc.) can be referred to as uncountable when served in slices, even if you still think of it as "countable".

    On the other hand, mentioned as a dish, like a menu item you may order in a cafe or restaurant, it should be referred to as countable:

    "...They got a cherry pie there that'll kill ya!"

    So, again, it's complicated.


    --
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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Gleb Hlebov on Thu Dec 7 09:02:46 2023

    Hi, Gleb Hlebov!
    I read your message from 05.12.2023 12:56

    Well, a pie can be cut into portions, but anyway it should
    theoretically remained a pie. IMPOV. ;)

    Sometimes it may not work this way. E. g. talking about food, you
    can hear something along the lines of:

    "...Nutella has become out comfort food, we like it with banana or pretzels."

    Nutella is like ice-cream, it is understandable.
    out ?-> our
    banana ?-> bananas

    Many types of food (besides pie, cake, ice cream, candy etc.) can
    be referred to as uncountable when served in slices, even if you
    still think of it as "countable".

    On the other hand, mentioned as a dish, like a menu item you may
    order in a cafe or restaurant, it should be referred to as
    countable:
    "...They got a cherry pie there that'll kill ya!"
    So, again, it's complicated.

    I think that the matter is simpler. When they say in the dictionary that pie is both countable and uncountable in use they just mean that you _can_ put an indefinite article before "pie", or you are free not to put it. The same situation with steak:

    "I had steak and kidney pie with chips"
    but probably is also correct
    "I had a steak and (a) kidney pie with chips"

    I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the less articles it contains. ;-)

    Bye, Gleb!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Dec 7 11:13:44 2023
    Hello Alexander,

    <Thu 07-12-2023 09:02> Alexander Koryagin <2:221/6> vs. me:

    "...Nutella has become out comfort food, we like it with banana
    or pretzels."
    Nutella is like ice-cream, it is understandable.

    Sure.

    out ?-> our

    It's just a silly typo, alright.
    Damn, I checked that very msg 3 times. How could it creep in? I suspect someone's tosser did that. Also my work keyboard sucks. :-[

    banana ?-> bananas

    This is it.
    It's supposed to be exactly "we like it with banana".
    Alas, "banana" can be uncountable.

    On the other hand, mentioned as a dish, like a menu item you may
    order in a cafe or restaurant, it should be referred to as
    countable:
    "...They got a cherry pie there that'll kill ya!"
    So, again, it's complicated.
    I think that the matter is simpler. When they say in the dictionary
    that pie is both countable and uncountable in use they just mean that
    you _can_ put an indefinite article before "pie", or you are free not
    to put it.

    It depends on the context. Not having a similar concept in our language, this is quite hard for us to grasp, it's never simple. :-)
    But it doesn't work just at random, as you'd expect.

    The same situation with steak:
    "I had steak and kidney pie with chips"
    but probably is also correct
    "I had a steak and (a) kidney pie with chips"

    I'm afraid you got it wrong here.
    "Steak & kidney pie" is "one entity".

    ========
    Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury pie filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney (which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (google)
    ========

    Thus, the first one is the correct usage, the second makes no sense.

    I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the less articles
    it contains. ;-)

    I don't think there's such a connection, or dependency. But without tutors it's getting hard to settle this kind of dispute. :-)

    Again, I could try to explain the usage via some abstractions (this is how I believe it works):

    1. Mom: texts "Did you eat?"
    Son: "Yeah sure"
    M: "What was it"
    S: "Steak and kidney pie with chips"
    M: "Good"

    2. Friend: asks "So last night you went to that restaurant?"
    Me: "Yeah"
    F: "How was it?"
    M: "Great, I had a steak and kidney pie, at last"
    F: "THAT pie? For real? With chips?"
    M: "Yeah, it's something else! Highly recommended."

    Do you realize the difference between those two? Both are casual dialogue instances that can occur everyday everywhere.


    --
    WBR, Gleb <Thu 07-12-2023 11:13>
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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Gleb Hlebov on Mon Dec 11 09:26:48 2023

    Hi, Gleb Hlebov!
    I read your message from 07.12.2023 10:13

    The same situation with steak:
    "I had steak and kidney pie with chips" but probably is also correct
    "I had a steak and (a) kidney pie with chips"

    I'm afraid you got it wrong here. "Steak & kidney pie" is "nee
    entity".

    ========
    Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury pie
    filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney
    (which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (google)
    ========

    "Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes. "Steak" is just a piece of meat, IMHO.

    Thus, the first one is the correct usage, the second makes no
    sense.

    I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the less
    articles it contains. ;-)

    I don't think there's such a connection, or dependency. But without
    tutors it's getting hard to settle this kind of dispute. :-)

    Again, I could try to explain the usage via some abstractions (this
    is how I believe it works):

    1. Mom: texts "Did you eat?"
    Son: "Yeah sure"
    M: "What was it"
    - "What was it?"
    S: "Steak and kidney pie with chips"
    M: "Good"


    2. Friend: asks "So last night you went to that restaurant?"
    Me: "Yeah"
    F: "How was it?"
    M: "Great, I had a steak and kidney pie, at last"

    Why "at last"?

    F: "THAT pie? For real? With chips?"
    M: "Yeah, it's something else! Highly recommended."

    -"else"? Maybe "Yeah, it's something! Highly recommended."


    I should remark here that "a" before "steak" is also pertain to "kidney pie".

    Do you realize the difference between those two? Both are casual
    dialogue instances that can occur everyday everywhere.

    I still don't see why I cannot use "a" in the first example. ;)

    Bye, Gleb!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido.english_tutor 2023

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  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Dec 15 22:38:10 2023
    + 22:38 [4222] call to english_tutor
    22:38 [4222] connected
    + 22:38 [4222] outgoing session with 2:221/6
    + 22:38 [4222] quoting Alexander Koryagin -> Gleb Hlebov
    - 22:38 [4222] TIME Fri 15 Dec 2023 22:38 +0400

    ========
    Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury
    pie filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney
    (which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (google)
    ========
    "Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes. "Steak" is just a piece
    of meat, IMHO.

    In theory, yes, it could be that S and KP /are/ different dishes. In the real life "anglosphere", not so much .:-)

    If you think about it, it's not a great idea to have both steak and pie with diced meat in one meal, to begin with. Sure you can afford and have both and add a bag of "Lay's" to that, because why not? But in anglo- or british cuisine S&KP is positively one dish (and a recipe), as quoted above, plus "chips" aren't crisps like Lay's or Estrella but simply a plate of sliced and fried potato, like "french fries" in North America. Just indulge yourself and do a little bit of research on the matter. Otherwise, how would you learn things?

    2. Friend: asks "So last night you went to that restaurant?"
    Me: "Yeah"
    F: "How was it?"
    M: "Great, I had a steak and kidney pie, at last"
    Why "at last"?

    Because I was going to try it for a while and that day the opportunity presented itself.

    F: "THAT pie? For real? With chips?"
    M: "Yeah, it's something else! Highly recommended."
    -"else"? Maybe "Yeah, it's something! Highly recommended."

    s.e., idiom.:
    unusual, especially extremely good (or extremely bad):
    "This game is really something else!"
    Unique and unusual.

    Do you realize the difference between those two? Both are casual
    dialogue instances that can occur everyday everywhere.
    I still don't see why I cannot use "a" in the first example. ;)

    You mean this?

    S: "Steak and kidney pie with chips"
    M: "Good"

    The context is kind of an everyday talk between parents and kids, like they know there's a lot of various food in the fridge at home and that he's supposed to take some food, warm it up in a microwave and eat. The reference here is the type of food, not the amount or quantity of it, like portions, servings, etc.

    The more you learn the more you will see why you should or shouldn't use those depending on the variety of context. None of us 'tutees' is perfect here, we just keep on learning.


    + 22:38 [4222] session closed, quitting...
    - bye!
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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Dec 16 22:52:19 2023


    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Dec 16 23:00:09 2023
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Gleb Hlebov:

    ========
    Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a
    savoury pie filled principally with a mixture of diced
    beef, diced kidney (which may be beef, lamb, veal, or
    pork) and onion. (google)
    ========

    "Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes.


    No. Would you say fish & chips, macaroni & cheese, or corned beef & cabbage are separate dishes? To me, as a person with ex-Brit roots, these are classic combinations which I think of as a unit. I don't know of anyone who'd eat a pie made only with kidneys &/or boiled macaroni with cheese on the side, but I do know of various ways to serve most of the items listed above.

    Because English isn't your native language you translate things like this word for word. I'm told the same occurs when Canadians are travelling in Florida, BTW, so you needn't feel embarrassed... [grin].



    "Steak" is just a piece of meat, IMHO.


    If you tell me you had steak for dinner, yes. I'd say the same when I've bought a large piece at the grocery store & cut it up to feed the family. But at a restaurant people usually order single servings by weight. You might ask for a ten-ounce steak, e.g., while your companion wants more or less. :-)



    I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the
    less articles it contains. ;-)

    I don't think there's such a connection, or dependency.
    But without tutors it's getting hard to settle this kind
    of dispute. :-)


    I'm here. While I can't always keep up with you guys, I'm delighted to see the increase in traffic since Gleb joined us in ENGLISH_TUTOR.... :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Gleb Hlebov on Mon Dec 18 14:02:00 2023

    Hi, Gleb Hlebov!
    I read your message from 15.12.2023 19:38


    Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury
    pie filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney
    (which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (googe))
    "Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes. "Steak" is just a
    piece of meat, IMHO.

    In theory, yes, it could be that S and KP /are/ different dishes.
    In the real life "anglosphere", not so much.:-)

    If you think about it, it's not a great idea to have both steak and
    pie with diced meat in one meal, to begin with. Sure you can afford
    and have both and add a bag of "Lay's" to that, because why not?
    But in anglo- or british cuisine S&KP is positively one dish (and a recipe), as quoted above, plus "chips" aren't crisps like Lay's or Estrella but simply a plate of sliced and fried potato,
    like "french fries" in North America. Just indulge yourself and do
    a little bit of research on the matter. Otherwise, how would you
    learn things?

    2. Friend: asks "So last night you went to that restauran??"
    Me: "Yeah"
    F: "How was it?"
    M: "Great, I had a steak and kidney pie, at last"

    Why "at last"?

    Because I was going to try it for a while and that day the
    opportunity presented itself.

    AH, you have been trying to test it for all your life... :)

    <skipped>
    Do you realize the difference between those two? Both are casual
    dialogue instances that can occur everyday everywhere.
    I still don't see why I cannot use "a" in the first example.;;)

    <skipped>
    The more you learn the more you will see why you should or
    shouldn't use those depending on the variety of context. None of
    us 'tutees' is perfect here, we just keep on learning.

    I prefer English classics:
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    George suggested meat and fruit pies, cold
    meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff. For drink, we took some
    wonderful sticky concoction of Harris's, which you mixed with water and
    called lemonade, plenty of tea, and a bottle of whisky, in case, as
    George said, we got upset.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Could the author omit "a" and say about fruit pie?


    Bye, Gleb!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Dec 18 14:23:12 2023

    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 17.12.2023 02:00

    ========
    Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury
    pie filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney
    (which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (google)
    ========

    "Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes.

    No. Would you say fish & chips, macaroni & cheese, or corned beef & cabbage are separate dishes? To me, as a person with ex-Brit roots,

    I've said "different". Nobody can prohibit you eat them together. ;)

    these are classic combinations which I think of as a unit. I don't
    know of anyone who'd eat a pie made only with kidneys &/or boiled
    macaroni with cheese on the side, but I do know of various ways to
    serve most of the items listed above.

    What is a dish after all, according to Longman?
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    3. food cooked or prepared in a particular way as a meal :
    a wonderful pasta dish
    The menu includes a wide selection of vegetarian dishes.
    This soup is substantial enough to serve as a main dish (= the biggest part of a meal ) .
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Because English isn't your native language you translate thiggs
    like this word for word. I'm told the same occurs when Canadians
    are travelling in Florida, BTW, so you needn't feel embarrassed...
    [grin].

    "Steak" is just a piece of meat, IMHO.

    If you tell me you had steak for dinner, yes. I'd say the same when
    I've bought a large piece at the grocery store & cut it up to feed
    the family. But at a restaurant people usually order single
    servings by weight. You might ask for a ten-ounce steak, e..,,
    while your companion wants more or less. :-)

    ....and two-ounce steak to my wife. ;-)

    I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the less
    articles it contains. ;-)

    I don't think there's such a connection, or dependency. But
    without tutors it's getting hard to settle this kind of
    dispute. :-)

    I'm here. While I can't always keep up with you guys, I'm delighted
    to see the increase in traffic since Gleb joined us in
    ENGLISH_TUTOR.... :-))

    After all when people speak they don't use any commas. A sentence - that is the main lexical unit, IMHO. ;) An English person pronounces words in such a way that no commas can help for the listener. Only the experience to listen it from the birth. The melody of phrases.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Dec 18 09:05:18 2023
    Hi, Alexander -- on Dec 18 2023 at 14:02, you wrote:

    I prefer English classics:
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    George suggested meat and fruit pies, cold
    meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff. For drink, we took some
    wonderful sticky concoction of Harris's, which you mixed with water
    and called lemonade, plenty of tea, and a bottle of whisky, in
    case, as George said, we got upset.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Could the author omit "a" and say about fruit pie?

    As I read the above, the author DID omit "a", and that's correct as (I gather from the context) s/he is talking about more than one pie (regardless of whether it's a meat or a fruit pie, or even an unimaginable meat and fruit pie!).



    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Dec 18 09:07:14 2023
    Hi, Alexander -- on Dec 18 2023 at 14:23, you wrote:

    After all when people speak they don't use any commas. A sentence -
    that is the main lexical unit, IMHO. ;) An English person
    pronounces words in such a way that no commas can help for the
    listener. Only the experience to listen it from the birth. The
    melody of phrases.

    I have to diagree with you, Alexander. When I speak, particularly if I'm reading a prepared script, I use the commas to indicate a breathing point, a chance for silence to separate my thoughts. So the commas are heard, in that sense.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Dallas Hinton on Tue Dec 19 08:56:22 2023
    + 08:55 [4222] quoting Dallas Hinton -> Alexander Koryagin
    - 08:55 [4222] TIME Tue 19 Dec 2023 08:55 +0400

    Hello Dallas,

    [...]

    or even an unimaginable meat and fruit pie!).

    :-)
    That's not unheard of, come to think of it. At least there are chicken & pineapple salad recipes and some other "weird" but edible combos.

    meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff.

    I was trying to prove the point to AK that "fruit" can be referred to as an uncountable noun. So, is this usage "grammatical"? I believe the author used "fruit" (not fruits) to imply "the assortment of fruits", like in a smorgasbord.

    Some other examples, like this one:

    ========
    eat plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables
    ========


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  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Gleb Hlebov on Tue Dec 19 01:38:30 2023
    Hi, Gleb -- on Dec 19 2023 at 08:56, you wrote:

    eat plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables

    This one is ungrammatical, in my opinion. It's often used, however, so I guess the language is changing (no surprise there!).


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Dec 19 13:13:02 2023
    + 13:13 [4222] quoting Alexander Koryagin -> Gleb Hlebov
    - 13:13 [4222] TIME Tue 19 Dec 2023 13:13 +0400

    Why "at last"?
    Because I was going to try it for a while and that day the
    opportunity presented itself.
    AH, you have been trying to test it for all your life... :)

    "To try" means "to taste" or "to have a taste". "To test" doesn't really belong here, I guess. (?)
    For a while" isn't the same as "for all your life".
    Anyway, that was just an example at hand.

    I prefer English classics:
    George suggested meat and fruit pies, cold meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff.
    Could the author omit "a" and say about fruit pie?

    I guess he could. If they were discussing just types of food or lunch ideas and not particular menu items.


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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Gleb Hlebov on Wed Dec 20 00:06:11 2023
    Hi, Gleb! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    in anglo- or british cuisine S&KP is positively one dish
    (and a recipe), as quoted above,


    Agreed. Dallas & I had it for dinner recently, when our daughter was not at home, because she prefers steak & Guinness or lamb & mint. Do I need to explain, though, that we buy individual portions made by an ex-Brit whom we met when he operated a butcher shop in our neighbourhood &/or that I gave up trying to make it because Dallas & I found the smell of kidneys boiling for three-four hours offputting? For a lot of people this could be too much information. :-Q



    plus "chips" aren't crisps like Lay's or Estrella but
    simply a plate of sliced and fried potato,


    Usually cut lengthwise & deep fried, as is the fish... i.e. if you're buying it from a restaurant. There are boxed & frozen equivalents, but I would not recommend them. When I'm cooking fish at home I tend to pan fry it & serve it with boiled potatoes because I find deep frying quite impractical unless one is expected to produce large quantities of such stuff on a daily basis.... :-)



    like "french fries" in North America.


    Or English fries, if you're speaking French.

    What many people... including some of our neighbours to the south who don't live near the border... fail to understand is that their idea of chips is what the British refer to as crisps. I don't expect everyone to know that, but third & fourth generation Canadian kids understand "fish & chips" because it is a classic combination referred to by this title since the 1800's at least. :-)



    The reference here is the type of food, not the amount
    or quantity of it, like portions, servings, etc.


    Yes. I could tell you the exact measurements of my pie plates or the foil containers I buy at the grocery store, but you don't need to know any more than you need to know what sizes of ice cream cartons are available here or how I would measure the size of a serving at home. :-)



    None of us 'tutees' is perfect here, we just keep on
    learning.


    Hey... nobody's perfect, including me! And one of the things I enjoy about the study of English is that there's always more to learn. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Fri Dec 22 08:07:48 2023

    Hi, Dallas Hinton!
    I read your message from 18.12.2023 12:05

    I prefer English classics:
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    George suggested meat and fruit pies, cold
    meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff. For drink, we took some
    wonderful sticky concoction of Harris's, which you mixed with water
    and called lemonade, plenty of tea, and a bottle of whisky,inn
    case, as George said, we got upset.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Could the author omit "a" and say about fruit pie?

    As I read the above, the author DID omit "a", and that's correct as
    (I gather from the context) s/he is talking about more than one pie (regardless of whether it's a meat or a fruit pie, or even an
    unimaginable meat and fruit pie!).

    Could the author use "pie" instead of "pies" like in the text than started the tread?

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    .... She was sitting at the dining room table with the other children, two of whom were eating pie and ice cream with expressions of immense satisfaction."
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Probably the children ate the same pie. Which was without an article. ;)

    Bye, Dallas!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Fri Dec 22 08:19:44 2023

    Hi, Dallas Hinton!
    I read your message from 18.12.2023 12:07

    After all when people speak they don't use any commas. A
    sentence - that is the main lexical unit, IMHO. ;) An
    English person pronounces words in such a way that no
    commas can help for the listener. Only the experience to
    listen it from the birth. The melody of phrases.

    I have to diagree with you, Alexander. When I speak,
    particularly if I'm reading a prepared script, I use the comaas
    to indicate a breathing point, a chance for silence to separtte
    my thoughts. So the commas are heard, in that sense.


    Yes, probably all the comma rules can be brought together to the physics. If you want a pause put a comma, or even two or three. Like this:

    "Can you remember that guy,,, from english_tutor, Alexander, as far as I remember?"

    It would be great! We'll bring the text closer to the text ;-)

    Bye, Dallas!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2023

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  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Dec 22 00:32:45 2023
    Hi, Alexander -- on Dec 22 2023 at 08:07, you wrote:


    Could the author use "pie" instead of "pies" like in the text than
    started the tread?

    Yes, I think so. The idea is that there's some sort of pie to be eaten, whether it's a slice, a miniature pie, or several pies! :-)


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Dec 22 00:33:49 2023
    Hi, Alexander -- on Dec 22 2023 at 08:19, you wrote:


    Yes, probably all the comma rules can be brought together to the
    physics. If you want a pause put a comma, or even two or three.
    Like this:

    "Can you remember that guy,,, from english_tutor, Alexander, as far
    as I remember?"

    It would be great! We'll bring the text closer to the text ;-)

    I wouldn't want to see more than 1 comma. A long break is better indicated with a dash (-- on a keyboard, or an em or en dash in typesetting).


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Dec 22 13:40:48 2023
    + 13:40 [4222] quoting Alexander Koryagin -> Dallas Hinton
    - 13:40 [4222] TIME Fri 22 Dec 2023 13:40 +0400

    particularly if I'm reading a prepared script, I use the comaas
    to indicate a breathing point, a chance for silence to separtte
    my thoughts. So the commas are heard, in that sense.
    Yes, probably all the comma rules can be brought together to the
    physics. If you want a pause put a comma, or even two or three. Like
    this:
    "Can you remember that guy,,, from english_tutor, Alexander, as far as
    I remember?"

    The hardest part is you'll need to invent a name for it. If "..." is an ellipsis, ",,," shouldn't just be a "triple comma".

    It would be great! We'll bring the text closer to the text ;-)

    "...So we put text in your text" ? It makes little sense.

    It will bring text (written word) closer to speech (spoken word).


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  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Ardith Hinton on Sat Dec 23 00:24:32 2023
    Hello Ardith,

    in anglo- or british cuisine S&KP is positively one dish
    (and a recipe), as quoted above,
    Agreed. Dallas & I had it for dinner recently, when our daughter was not at home, because she prefers steak & Guinness or lamb
    & mint.

    "Guinness" being an Irish stout?
    I had to check if there were other meanings associated with Guinness but Google only suggested the beverage.

    By the way, while we're on the hot topic of indefinite articles, could you comment on the usage below, please:

    Guinness is /an/ Irish dry stout that originated in the
    brewery of Arthur Guinness at St. James's Gate, Dublin,
    Ireland, in 1759...(wikipedia) ?

    an Irish stout -- implying: a brand/type/sort of stout, did I get it right? Because, if we look up for "stout":

    Stout is a dark, top-fermented beer style which includes
    dry stout, oatmeal stout, milk stout and imperial stout...

    making it "a sub-category of beer", which is rational... but can we thereby deduce that "Guinness is a beer"? I don't think this is correct at all.

    So, it's as it is and not "Guinness is an Irish /brand/ of dry stout..." because "stout" already denotes a local "brand name"? Do I make any sense here? :-)

    Do I need to explain, though, that we buy individual portions
    made by an ex-Brit whom we met when he operated a butcher shop in our neighbourhood &/or that I gave up trying to make it because Dallas & I found the smell of kidneys boiling for three-four hours offputting?
    For a lot of people this could be too much information. :-Q

    I can relate! Because I remember something from my childhood, a certain family soup recipe that is made with kidneys too. Sure, the smell was "peculiar" during the process. :-)

    'Rassolnik' is a traditional Russian soup made from pickled
    cucumbers, pearl barley, and pork or beef kidneys.

    It's also recommended to replace the pickles with "sour" cucumbers (i.e. fermented without vinegar, similar to sauerkraut) for more authenticity.

    Usually cut lengthwise & deep fried, as is the fish... i.e.
    if you're buying it from a restaurant. There are boxed & frozen equivalents, but I would not recommend them. When I'm cooking fish at home I tend to pan fry it & serve it with boiled potatoes because I
    find deep frying quite impractical unless one is expected to produce
    large quantities of such stuff on a daily basis.... :-)

    I guess I misused "sliced" when I meant it is cut in thick strips or sticks, something like that, which is the proper way. And, BTW pan fried potato is the absolute go-to home made dish in Russia as well! I tend to cook it weekly, and everyone I know does it every once in a while. Potato is king, also it's the cheapest farm produce available in stores here.

    Sure, deep frying at home is a nightmare, without the equipment and a LOT of oil.

    like "french fries" in North America.
    Or English fries, if you're speaking French.

    According to "Crazy English", those are neither French nor English. :-)
    As if both nations wanted to dispose of it for some reason.

    What many people... including some of our neighbours to the south who don't live near the border... fail to understand is that
    their idea of chips is what the British refer to as crisps. I don't expect everyone to know that, but third & fourth generation Canadian
    kids understand "fish & chips" because it is a classic combination referred to by this title since the 1800's at least. :-)

    AFAIK Fish & chips is kind of a British staple. I don't remember how and where I've learned about it, but first I thought about "chips" as crisps too -- could it be a beer snack...? Plus, not long ago I've heard of a more contemporary thing which is Bangers & Mash. :-)

    None of us 'tutees' is perfect here, we just keep on
    learning.
    Hey... nobody's perfect, including me! And one of the
    things I enjoy about the study of English is that there's always more
    to learn. :-))

    Exactly. And every language keeps changing, these days faster than ever.


    -- bye!
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