• Beauty and the Beast

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to All on Thu Mar 18 09:15:22 2021

    Hi, All!

    "Beauty and the Beast", a movie name -- why Beauty is without "the"?

    Bye, All!
    Alexander Koryagin

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  • From Denis Mosko@1:153/757.1315 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Mar 18 14:14:45 2021
    //Hello Alexander, //

    "Beauty and the Beast", a movie name -- why Beauty is without "the"?
    Mm..
    It's becouse prononce?

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  • From Brian Klauss@1:104/116 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Mar 18 23:30:00 2021
    Alexander Koryagin wrote to All <=-

    @MSGID: <6053023E.322.fidonet_englisht@caughtinadream.com>
    @TZ: 0078

    "Beauty and the Beast", a movie name -- why Beauty is without "the"?

    Titles of movies, books, music, and art do not require an article.
    Prefacing "Beauty" with "The" would be appropriate but with the
    idiomatic nature of English, and the rules we don't follow, it can be
    left out.

    It's similar to music group names, "Guns N' Roses", not "The Guns and
    Roses", or books, "Patriot Games" instead of "The Patriot Games".


    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Brian Klauss on Fri Mar 19 08:12:46 2021

    Hi, Brian Klauss - Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 19.03.2021 00:30

    "Beauty and the Beast", a movie name -- why Beauty is
    without "the"?

    Titles of movies, books, music, and art do not require an
    article. Prefacing "Beauty" with "The" would be appropriate but
    with the idiomatic nature of English, and the rules we don't
    follow, it can be left out.

    It's similar to music group names, "Guns N' Roses", not "The
    Guns and Roses", or books, "Patriot Games" instead of "The
    Patriot Games".

    So it could be simply "Beauty and Beast"?

    Bye, Brian!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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  • From Denis Mosko@1:153/757.1315 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Mar 19 14:02:44 2021
    //Hello Alexander, //
    Hi, Brian Klauss - Alexander Koryagin! I read your message from
    19.03.2021 00:30

    "Beauty and the Beast", a movie name -- why Beauty is without "the"?

    Titles of movies, books, music, and art do not require an article.
    Prefacing "Beauty" with "The" would be appropriate but with the
    idiomatic nature of English, and the rules we don't follow, it can be
    left out.

    It's similar to music group names, "Guns N' Roses", not "The Guns and
    Roses", or books, "Patriot Games" instead of "The Patriot Games".

    So it could be simply "Beauty and Beast"?
    Not! "Beauty and the Beast".
    Such as "Gun and the Rose" may be ...

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  • From Brian Klauss@1:104/116 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Mar 19 13:49:45 2021
    Re: Beauty and the Beast
    By: Alexander Koryagin to Brian Klauss on Fri Mar 19 2021 08:12 am

    So it could be simply "Beauty and Beast"?

    Nope ... because it wouldn't sound right. For example, "Law and Order". It flows right. If I said, "The Law and the Order", it sounds horrible and wouldn't convey well. The English language is a contradiction of rules.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ALEXANDER KORYAGIN on Sat Mar 20 09:56:00 2021
    So it could be simply "Beauty and Beast"?

    I suspect that it is "Beauty and the Beast" because, when it comes to the titles of books, songs, and other artworks in English, the leading "A" and "The" articles often get dropped.

    Also, she is a Beauty but the story does not imply that she is the only
    Beauty that exists. On the other hand, The Beast is portrayed as a
    singular individual. So he is the (one and only) Beast.


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  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Mar 22 18:25:30 2021
    Alexander Koryagin:

    "Beauty and the Beast", a movie name -- why Beauty is
    without "the"?

    Originally, it is a fairy tale, whereas the movie is but a
    derivative. Beauty here is the name of the girl, so it does
    not require an article in usual circumstances. On the other
    hand, Planche's translation is titled more fully: The Story
    of The Beauty and The Beast. He explains:--

    In the midst of her greatest splendour, although
    distinguished by her merit, she was so handsome that she
    was called "The Beauty."

    Compare with the character names in William Morris's "The
    Story Of The Glittering Plain, Or The Land Of Living
    Men" -- The Puny Fox, The Hostage. Somewhat akin to the
    names of the indigenious peoples of America.

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  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Mar 22 18:59:16 2021
    Alexander Koryagin:

    So it could be simply "Beauty and Beast"?

    Not at all. One need only take a glance at the story "Beauty
    and The Beast" to understand that the article usage is not
    related to the ungrammatical conventions of titles, but
    reflects the usage in Beaumont's abridged version:

    https://www.pitt.edu/~dash/beauty.html

    where the princess is called Beauty and the prince is
    referred to as both "the beast" and "Beast" -- by name and
    by essense.

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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Mar 25 22:56:49 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    "Beauty and the Beast", a movie name
    -- why Beauty is without "the"?


    In English-language versions of this story... originally written in French... "Belle" may be interchangeable with "Beauty" as the name of a young woman. Years ago it was not uncommon for females to have given names such as Faith, Hope, Charity, Constance, Felicity, Grace, Joy, and Prudence. Many of them seem old-fashioned now... but some are still in use. I don't personally know anyone named Beauty, nor have I seen historical references to women with this particular name. I see a pattern, however, in that all of the above are characteristics a child may have &/or their parents may hope they will.


    In French & Italian... and quite possibly in other languages... the literal rendition of the title means "The Beauty and the Beast". In English, however, we often omit articles when we are making reference to a theoretical concept. WRT definition #1 in my dictionaries... a quality or combination of qualities which from the observer's viewpoint is pleasurable to the mind &/or the senses... we can & we do say things like:

    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" (an aphorism I
    first heard as a child); "A thing of beauty is a joy
    forever" (John Keats); "She walks in beauty like the
    night" (Lord Byron); or... no doubt with the help of
    a good translator... "It is amazing how complete is
    the delusion that beauty is goodness" (Leo Tolstoy).

    The moral of the tale could be, in effect, "Don't judge a book by its cover." But whether "Beauty" is seen there as the name of a person or "beauty" in the general sense or both, the article would still be omitted in English.... :-)


    Other titles in which the definite article has been omitted include WAR AND PEACE, PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, and CANADIAN HISTORY FOR DUMMIES. Yet we employ articles when we speak of these ideas in specific terms. Which war is the author referring to in WAR AND PEACE? The War of 1812... meaning the one which took place in Eurasia, not the one which took place in North America at roughly the same time. We do the same with "beauty" when we add details best explained in definitions #2, #3, etc. We might say e.g. "The beauty of it is that I can walk to work" or "[this woman] was quite a beauty years ago". :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Mar 26 12:55:40 2021
    Ardith Hinton:

    But whether "Beauty" is seen there as the name of a
    person or "beauty" in the general sense or both, the
    article would still be omitted in English.... :-)

    This observation is most excellently demonstrated in Clark
    Ashton Smith's prose poem "The Demon, the Angel, and Beauty":

    http://eldritchdark.com/writings/prose-poetry-plays/10/print

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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Mar 29 08:55:56 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 25.03.2021 22:56

    The moral of the tale could be, in effect, "Don't judge a book by
    its cover." But whether "Beauty" is seen there as the name of a
    person or "beauty" in the general sense or both, the article would
    still be omitted in English....

    Other titles in which the definite article has been omitted include
    WAR AND PEACE, PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, and CANADIAN HISTORY FOR
    DUMMIES. Yet we employ articles when we speak of these ideas in

    I even heard that articles in titles are not necessary in English at all. :) So it easily could be "Beaty and Beast", isn't it?

    specific terms. Which war is the author referring to in WAR AND
    PEACE? The War of 1812... meaning the one which took place in
    Eurasia, not the one which took place in North America at roughly
    the same time. We do the same with "beauty" when we add details
    best explained in definitions #2, #3, etc. We might say e.g. "The
    beauty of it is that I can walk to work" or "[this woman] was quite
    a beauty years ago".

    Another thing is that the in the Disney's cartoon the girl was called "Belle", not "Beauty". It is legal to say that "Belle was a beauty". ;) Or it could be "Belle and the beast". In Russia we consider the cartoon name as, probably, "The beautiful girl and the beast".

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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  • From Denis Mosko@1:153/757.1315 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Mar 29 10:34:20 2021
    //Hello Alexander, //

    *29.03.21* *8:55:56* in ap *ENGLISH_TUTOR*
    *Ardith Hinton* Theme *"Beauty and the Beast"*.

    Another thing is that the in the Disney's cartoon the girl was called "Belle", not "Beauty".
    May be it's becouse copy-rights?

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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Mar 31 23:30:13 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    But whether "Beauty" is seen there as the name of a
    person or "beauty" in the general sense or both, the
    article would still be omitted in English....

    [...]

    I even heard that articles in titles are not necessary
    in English at all. :)


    That would be going a bit too far. It is true that a title may have the initial article listed at the end, following a commma, in the library card catalogue & suchlike... e.g. CANADIAN OXFORD DICTIONARY, THE. We have so many titles beginning with "a(n)" or "the" we'd never find anything otherwise. :-)

    It is also true that I say "my CANADIAN OXFORD DICTIONARY" at times, particularly in this echo, but I'm writing informally here. If I were writing an academic essay I'd make sure all the i's were dotted & all the t's crossed.



    So it easily could be "Beaty and Beast", isn't it?


    Only if both are proper nouns. In this tale "the beast" is a prince under a magic spell. Whatever his real name is I doubt it's "Beast", although he's listed that way in the movie credits. AFAIC what matters for purposes of this discussion is whether or not he's so named in the movie itself.

    Other titles using proper nouns (as opposed to descriptors):


    1) names of people

    Huckleberry Finn
    Pippi Longstocking
    Peter Pan

    Damon and Pythias
    Frankie and Johnny
    ... possibly also

    Antony and Cleopatra
    Romeo and Juliet

    ... but Fowler's brought to my attention that HAMLET
    was known 'way back when by various titles which are
    generally shortened now by common consent. The same
    may also apply to other Shakespearean plays.... :-)


    2) names of places

    Hawaii
    South Pacific
    New York, New York


    Names of various abstract/theoretical ideas or fields of study often appear without articles in English. For this reason, I used "war" & "history" among my examples... but if you need more examples I can probably come up with other titles such as THE STORY OF PHILOSOPHY or DUET FOR VIOLA AND CELLO. :-)



    Another thing is that the in the Disney's cartoon the
    girl was called "Belle", not "Beauty". It is legal to
    say that "Belle was a beauty". ;)


    Uh-huh. We adopted the word "belle" from French long ago... and use it to refer to an attractive female, as seems to be the case here. While I've actually met a woman named (or nicknamed) "Belle", though, I don't know anyone named "Beauty". Like music, translation is as much an art as a science. :-))



    In Russia we consider the cartoon name as, probably,
    "The beautiful girl and the beast".


    That's how I'd interpret the title of the story in French & Italian. But I know that, in French at least, it's not acceptable to leave out articles the way we often seem to do in English from time to time.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Apr 3 14:56:12 2021
    Alexander Koryagin:

    I even heard that articles in titles are not necessary
    in English at all.

    You heard wrong. Neither of the following titles works with-
    out the article: The Exorcist (Blatty), The Case of Charles
    Dexter Ward (Lovecraft), The Intruder (Beaumont), The
    Shrinking Man (Matheson), The Man with an Aura (Lafferty),
    The Thin Man (Hammet), The Underground Man (Macdonald).

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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Apr 5 09:04:12 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 31.03.2021 23:30

    But whether "Beauty" is seen there as the name of a person
    or "beauty" in the general sense or both, the article would still
    be omitted in English....
    [...]
    I even heard that articles in titles are not necessary in English
    at all.

    That would be going a bit too far. It is true that a title may have
    the initial article listed at the end, following a commma, in the
    library card catalogue & suchlike... e.g. CANADIAN OXFORD
    DICTIONARY, THE. We have so many titles beginning with "a(n)"
    or "the" we'd never find anything otherwise.

    It is also true that I say "my CANADIAN OXFORD DICTIONARY" at
    times, particularly in this echo, but I'm writing informally here.
    If I were writing an academic essay I'd make sure all the i's were
    dotted & all the t's crossed.

    I meant newspaper titles, for instance:

    Taiwan train crash: Lorry boss offers 'deep remorse'

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56632955

    So it easily could be "Beaty and Beast", isn't it?

    Only if both are proper nouns. In this tale "the beast" is a prince
    under a magic spell. Whatever his real name is I doubt
    it's "Beast", although he's listed that way in the movie credits.

    IMHO it's the same like Belle listed as a beauty. well, I'll read the original and say more. ;)


    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Apr 13 22:32:41 2021
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    But whether "Beauty" is seen there as the name of a
    person or "beauty" in the general sense or both, the
    article would still be omitted in English.... :-)

    This observation is most excellently demonstrated in
    Clark Ashton Smith's prose poem "The Demon, the Angel,
    and Beauty":

    http://eldritchdark.com/writings/
    prose-poetry-plays/10/print


    I found it very interesting... as, BTW, I did Mark Twain's comments about the German language which you referenced here. Thank you. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Apr 13 22:46:57 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I even heard that articles in titles are not necessary
    in English at all.

    [...]

    I meant newspaper titles, for instance:

    Taiwan train crash: Lorry boss offers 'deep remorse'


    Ah... I was thinking of songs, books, movies, etc. You were thinking of newspaper headlines, where direct & indirect articles are usually omitted.



    So it easily could be "Beaty and Beast", isn't it?


    BEAUTY & BEAST SOON TO WED... possibly. One could read the headlines and skip the details, except that nowadays it seems headlines are often written by robots & may or may not summarize the content accurately... [wry grin].

    I understand this style originated in byegone days when news was sent from place to place by telegraph, and a long article might be truncated because e.g. a tree had fallen down on the wires between here & there. It's still more common than not to include as much "who-what-when-why-where-how" as possible in the headline &/or the first few sentences. But even nowadays a headline may be what grabs the attention of passers-by & they may be motivated to find out more if whatever else they can take in at a glance seems interesting enough.... :-)



    In this tale "the beast" is a prince under a magic spell.
    Whatever his real name is I doubt it's "Beast", although
    he's listed that way in the movie credits.

    IMHO it's the same like Belle listed as a beauty. well,
    I'll read the original and say more. ;)


    The original version of this story? It is a folk/fairy tale, meaning there are a lot of different variations. The first known version dates back to 1740 & was written in French... but the story is apparently much older.

    If you want to research such things for yourself I'd highly recommend Ladybird Books, published in the UK some time ago. Although I would like to be more specific I'm a bit out of my depth re corporate mergers & whatnot.... :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Apr 14 22:15:16 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Yesterday I wrote in a reply to you:

    I was thinking of songs, books, movies, etc. You
    were thinking of newspaper headlines, where direct
    & indirect articles are usually omitted.


    I should have said "definite & indefinite articles".... :-(




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Apr 20 18:43:08 2021
    Ardith Hinton to Anton Shepelev:

    This observation is most excellently demonstrated in
    Clark Ashton Smith's prose poem "The Demon, the Angel,
    and Beauty":

    http://eldritchdark.com/writings/
    prose-poetry-plays/10/print

    I found it very interesting.

    I was reminded of it this very Sunday in the State History
    Museum, while exploring with my 20x loupe a 16th-century
    print of Durer's "Melencholia I", on expositon from
    Pinacoteca Tosio Martinengo. The angel and the putto are
    both rather gloomy. They have failed to penetrate the secret
    of Beauty in spite of all the instruments they have tried to
    measure it, for Beauty is God or at least from God. It is a
    Platonic ideal.

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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Apr 22 23:46:47 2021
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    This observation is most excellently demonstrated
    in Clark Ashton Smith's prose poem "The Demon, the
    Angel, and Beauty":

    http://eldritchdark.com/writings/
    prose-poetry-plays/10/print

    I found it very interesting.

    I was reminded of it this very Sunday in the State
    History Museum, while exploring with my 20x loupe
    a 16th-century print of Durer's "Melencholia I", on
    expositon from Pinacoteca Tosio Martinengo.


    Albrecht Durer, 1471-1528. Once again you piqued my interest because Dallas & I have a copy of "The Little Owl" dated 1508. :-)



    The angel and the putto are both rather gloomy.


    I don't know much about visual art in general or about this artist in particular... but I've always thought my owl looked a bit sad & began to wonder upon reading your comments what was going on in Durer's mind.

    Uncle Google tells me the work you're referring to dates back to 1514 ... the year the artist's mother died... and it's also widely believed that his arranged marriage was not a happy one. I see no further evidence of sadness in what I can find on the Internet. The images there are small, however, and I am aware of other situations in which e.g. the audience wouldn't realize Beethoven was deaf when he wrote his "Ode to Joy" if they hadn't been told.



    They have failed to penetrate the secret of Beauty
    in spite of all the instruments they have tried to
    measure it,


    Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
    Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning


    While I don't think art necessarily has to be beautiful it's probably more attractive to people in general when it comes close at least. In my youth I had a rare opportunity to spend some time alone with an aunt who had received formal training in visual art whereas I was studying music. We found that many of the terms we used, such as form and texture, were identical. But being able to discuss the whys & wherefores doesn't turn people into artists or musicians.



    for Beauty is God or at least from God.


    Summarizing the prose poem you mentioned above:

    1). The author uses a capital letter... not unusual, based on my observations
    of poetry & of prayer books written around the same time. He's uncertain
    as to whether he ought to say "he", "she", or "it".

    2). The Demon says "I've never experienced it, and now I doubt it's real."

    3). The Angel's reply is more thoughtful. It suggests to me that when I find
    myself particularly moved by a bit of music... frisson... I am not alone.



    It is a Platonic ideal.


    I don't know much about philosophy either. But when I see a photo of the Rocky Mountains &/or drive alongside the Fraser Canyon I understand why the psalmist was moved to say "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help," and why others believed the gods lived on Mt. Olympus.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Sat Apr 24 17:32:10 2021
    Ardith Hinton:

    Albrecht Durer, 1471-1528. Once again you piqued my
    interest because Dallas & I have a copy of "The Little
    Owl" dated 1508. :-)

    Indeed. As a true Reneissance man, he was not only an
    engraver but also an excellent painter, so that he had
    "silenced all the painters who said that I was good at
    engraving but could not manage color." I see little point in
    having copies at home, of however great works, and prefer
    genuine prints and pictures by local and less-known artists.
    Several years go, my town's Exhibition Hall hosted an
    exhibition of North Korean art -- from oil painitng to
    embroidery. I bought there a huge oil painting depicting a
    river descending from mountains onto a plain, with a tiny
    bus in the extreme background, tourists like tiny specks of
    color grouped around it -- a tribute to social realism
    perhaps, or a way to liven up the masses of blue and green.
    This picture cost me a miserable 50 dollars, so that I
    wanted to pay more. Oil paintings of comparable size and
    quality by local painters cost 10-20 times more! Poor North
    Koreans...

    I don't know much about visual art in general or about
    this artist in particular... but I've always thought my
    owl looked a bit sad & began to wonder upon reading your
    comments what was going on in Durer's mind.

    Or is it simply the empty-eyed contemplative stare of a
    stuffed animal? Anyway, I like his Young Hare much better:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Albrecht_Durer_-_Hare%2C_1502_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg

    That serious fella has a world-wise look to his eye, has he
    not? If he were not red, he would be fit for the role of the
    possessed hare in The Witch (or The VVitch) -- a beautiful
    movie with dialogue exclusively in Early Modern English.

    Uncle Google tells me the work you're referring to dates
    back to 1514 .. the year the artist's mother died... and
    it's also widely believed that his arranged marriage was
    not a happy one.

    The medieval Melancholia represents the frigid Saturnic
    Hella, the Norse mistress of the nine worlds of the dead.
    Her name is connected with that of the leader of the Wild
    Hunt, Helle-quin, which later became known an harlequin.
    Durer worked within the Medieval worldview, and his
    engravings are illustrations to Medieval mythology.

    I see no further evidence of sadness in what I can find
    on the Internet. The images there are small,

    Why, the Wikipedia scan is large and good:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Albrecht_Durer_-_Melencolia_I_-_Google_Art_Project_(_AGDdr3EHmNGyA).jpg


    however, and I am aware of other situations in which
    e.g. the audience wouldn't realize Beethoven was deaf
    when he wrote his "Ode to Joy" if they hadn't been told.

    Nor would I. I have read that Beethoven used a crude hearing
    aid in the form of a metal rod, of which one end was
    connected with the piano strings and the other the composer
    held in his teenth to feel the vibrations. This reminds me
    of a Russian theater actor that went deaf at the height of
    his career, but continued to act better than many that could
    hear. He had an almost supernatural sense of time and
    rhythm. He could act standing at the edge of the scene
    facing the audience, and say his lines exactly over the last
    of word of his partner behind his back. Similarly, I have a
    drawing by a Russian artist who is nearly blind. She has but
    8% of normal vision, and when I met her to buy the drawing
    she was with a guide.

    While I don't think art necessarily has to be beautiful

    I think art is all about beauty in all its forms.

    it's probably more attractive to people in general when
    it comes close at least. In my youth I had a rare
    opportunity to spend some time alone with an aunt who
    had received formal training in visual art whereas I was
    studying music. We found that many of the terms we
    used, such as form and texture, were identical. But
    being able to discuss the whys & wherefores doesn't turn
    people into artists or musicians.

    That is true, even as being able to drive does not make you
    an automotive engineer. Everybody appreciate good food but
    few are good cooks.

    Summarizing the prose poem you mentioned above:

    1). The author uses a capital letter... not unusual,
    based on my observations of poetry & of prayer
    books written around the same time. He's uncertain
    as to whether he ought to say "he", "she", or "it".

    2) The Demon says "I've never experienced it, and now I
    doubt it's real."

    3) The Angel's reply is more thoughtful. It suggests
    to me that when I find myself particularly moved by
    a bit of music... frisson... I am not alone.

    I suppose it reflects the attitude of the characters. The
    male protagonist thinks her a woman, perhaps as a symbol of
    what men adore. The Demon talks about "adumbrations of some
    transcendent Mystery", and calls it "the thing Beauty".
    Having failed to find it, he does not believe in it, missing
    the simple truth that if Beauty were found all life would
    lose its meaning and cease. The Angel tells of the same
    Mystery as the Demon, but concludes from it that Beauty does
    exist, but is beyond men and angels, even as God is.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Denis Mosko on Wed May 12 23:24:59 2021
    Hi, Denis! Recently you wrote in netmail to Ardith Hinton:

    If you want to research such things for yourself I'd highly
    recommend Ladybird Books, published in the UK some time ago.
    Although I would like to be more specific I'm a bit out of
    my depth re corporate mergers & whatnot.... :-Q

    What is Ladybird Books?


    In short, a publisher of children's books. The Wikipedia article on this company makes no direct reference to folk or fairy tales.



    Reply with example, please.


    You may have to visit a second-hand store to find the older versions ... probably dating back to the 1960's... which so impressed me. They were not graded &/or simplified for preschoolers as more recent versions apparently are. According to Wikipedia numerous Ladybird books from this era were written at an elementary school level but were very popular with adults too.... :-)

    If you want to know some titles of classic fairy tales in English, I suspect you know more than you think you do because a lot of our most cherished folklore originated in Europe & has been translated into umpteen languages. It may be you need help in searching by title, though, so I'll add a few examples:


    Hans Christian Andersen (Danish)

    The Emperor's New Clothes
    The Princess and the Pea
    The Ugly Duckling


    The Brothers Grimm (German), who studied folklore from
    various parts of Europe & included the work of Charles
    Perrault (French) in their own publications

    Cinderella
    Hansel and Gretel
    Little Red Riding Hood


    WRT British sources, I found only one...

    Goldilocks and the Three Bears

    ... but I note with interest that it is the only fairy tale I can easily recite from memory & that our daughter will correct me if I leave out something. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)