• New Year's Day.

    From Denis Mosko@2:5064/54.1315 to All on Sat Dec 19 08:57:18 2020
    I live in Russia and have not found a restaurant that serves haggis. On the other hand, New Year's Day is coming up; tradition in this part of the country is to eat boiled collard greens and black eyed peas, with a side of cornbread. This is supposed to bring You good luck and money for the Year to come according to folk superstitions.

    ... DrinkMineralSpringS
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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to DENIS MOSKO on Sat Dec 19 10:13:00 2020
    I live in Russia and have not found a restaurant that serves haggis. On the oth
    r hand, New Year's Day is coming up; tradition in this part of the country is t
    eat boiled collard greens and black eyed peas, with a side of cornbread. This i
    s supposed to bring You good luck and money for the Year to come according to f
    lk superstitions.

    I believe that is the same tradition with some in the USA, at least the
    black eyed peas and cornbread are.

    Mike


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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mike Powell on Mon Dec 21 23:52:31 2020
    Hi, Mike! Recently you wrote in a message to Denis Mosko:

    [...] boiled collard greens and black eyed peas,
    with a side of cornbread.

    I believe that is the same tradition with some
    in the USA, at least the black eyed peas and
    cornbread are.


    Uh-huh. The original author of this message lives in North Carolina, not in Russia. Denis changed only the "Subj" line & the geographical name.

    I think he's trying to learn English by copying patterns & trying out variations on them. This can be a useful learning strategy at times, but it is confusing to the rest of us when we can't be sure who said what or whether he's reporting accurately here in E_T what's going on in his life... [wry grin].




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    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ARDITH HINTON on Tue Dec 22 11:14:00 2020
    Uh-huh. The original author of this message lives in North Carolina,
    not in Russia. Denis changed only the "Subj" line & the geographical name.

    Ahhh....

    I think he's trying to learn English by copying patterns & trying out
    variations on them. This can be a useful learning strategy at times, but it is
    confusing to the rest of us when we can't be sure who said what or whether he's
    reporting accurately here in E_T what's going on in his life... [wry grin].

    Yes, but whatever works I guess. A friend of mine who came here from
    Vietnam c1975 learned English by watching TV shows, like "Three's Company"
    and "The Dukes of Hazard." :)

    Mike


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  • From Denis Mosko@2:5064/54.1315 to Mike Powell on Tue Dec 22 23:30:28 2020
    A friend of mine who came here from Vietnam c1975 learned English by watching TV shows, like "Three's Company" and "The Dukes of Hazard."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR-w7KeoYao
    Mike, how about it (DJ'es set 1995)?

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  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Mike Powell on Sat Dec 26 17:07:11 2020
    Re: New Year's Day.
    By: Mike Powell to DENIS MOSKO on Sat Dec 19 2020 10:13 am

    I live in Russia and have not found a restaurant that serves haggis. On the oth
    r hand, New Year's Day is coming up; tradition in this part of the country t
    eat boiled collard greens and black eyed peas, with a side of cornbread. Th i
    s supposed to bring You good luck and money for the Year to come according f
    lk superstitions.

    I believe that is the same tradition with some in the USA, at least the black eyed peas and cornbread are.

    Mike


    * SLMR 2.1a * IBM = Institute of Black Magic

    Hate to say it but he has a note there from COOKING that now says Russia but the rest was from Ruth who lives in South Carolina.

    xxcarol
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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to CAROL SHENKENBERGER on Sun Dec 27 11:03:00 2020
    Hate to say it but he has a note there from COOKING that now says Russia but the rest was from Ruth who lives in South Carolina.

    Hmmmm... <GRIN>

    Mike


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to DENIS MOSKO on Tue Dec 29 13:40:00 2020
    Hate to say it but he has a note there from COOKING that now says
    Russia but the rest was from Ruth who lives in South Carolina.
    Hmmmm... <GRIN>
    Mike!
    What is grin ? because I learn English from echo, Friend.

    It means a "smile."

    Mike


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  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Mike Powell on Fri Jan 1 12:19:12 2021
    Re: New Year's Day.
    By: Mike Powell to CAROL SHENKENBERGER on Sun Dec 27 2020 11:03 am

    Hate to say it but he has a note there from COOKING that now says Russia b the rest was from Ruth who lives in South Carolina.

    Hmmmm... <GRIN>

    Mike


    * SLMR 2.1a * He knows changes aren't permanent - but change is!

    Yeah, and now one from Michael Loo speaking about Dinner with Lilli who's suddenly a male...

    xxcarol
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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mike Powell on Mon Jan 18 23:36:34 2021
    Hi, Mike! Recently you wrote in a message to ARDITH HINTON:

    I think he's trying to learn English by copying patterns
    & trying out variations on them. This can be a useful
    learning strategy at times, but it is confusing to the
    rest of us when we can't be sure who said what or whether
    he's reporting accurately here in E_T what's going on in
    his life... [wry grin].

    Yes, but whatever works I guess. A friend of mine who
    came here from Vietnam c1975 learned English by watching
    TV shows, like "Three's Company" and "The Dukes of Hazard."


    Hmm. As a learning assistance teacher, I was called upon to help a girl in kindergarten who came to school without a word of English. I was told she enjoyed the movie ET so much, however, that she watched it numerous times. If she were older I might have recommended STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND.... :-)

    Different people have different preferred learning styles... and if Denis's instruction in English thus far has been mainly from textbooks I think it must require a great deal of courage on his part to interact with folks who routinely use colloquial English in Fidonet echoes.

    I am reminded of two scenarios here... one being my first encounter with a student from Russia. When we met at university both of us spoke French because it was required under the circumstances. Some time later we found out we travelled home via the same bus, where he also insisted on speaking French. At the end of a hard day that was just about the last thing I felt like doing; OTOH I realized he might find it as much of a challenge to speak English as it was for me to speak French. At any rate he corrected me once, I corrected him once. We were both glad we'd learned something & took it in good humour. :-)

    The other situation occurred when Dallas's parents invited a couple of our friends to join them for dinner along with Dallas & me. The wife was a former schoolmate of ours who'd majored in French & spent two years working in France... where she married a Frenchman. When Dallas's father said "Does your stomach think your throat's been cut?" he was quite baffled. In an attempt to help, his wife translated this expression literally word for word. If it made as much sense to him that way as certain French metaphorical/jocular/idiomatic expressions do to me he was probably none the wiser. As a student, however, I often found such things amusing when they were translated more freely.... :-Q




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    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ARDITH HINTON on Tue Jan 19 12:57:00 2021
    nce... where she married a Frenchman. When Dallas's father said "Does your sto
    ach think your throat's been cut?" he was quite baffled. In an attempt to help

    I shall have to admit that this saying is quite lost on me also. :)

    Mike


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  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mike Powell on Tue Jan 19 12:35:05 2021
    Hi, Mike -- on Jan 19 2021 at 12:57, you wrote:

    nce... where she married a Frenchman. When Dallas's father said "Does your
    stomach think your throat's been cut?" he was quite baffled. In an attempt to help

    I shall have to admit that this saying is quite lost on me also. :)

    Ah -- usually a statement: "My stomach thinks my throat's been cut" implying that you're absolutely starving, so much so that the stomach (if it could speak)
    would ask what's wrong up there? :-)



    Cheers... Dallas

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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Wed Jan 20 14:10:50 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 18.01.2021 23:36

    I think he's trying to learn English by copying patterns & trying
    out variations on them. This can be a useful learning strategy at
    times, but it is confusing to the rest of us when we can't be
    sure who said what or whether he's reporting accurately here in
    E_T what's going on in his life... [wry grin].

    Yes, but whatever works I guess. A friend of mine who came here
    from Vietnam c1975 learned English by watching TV shows,
    like "Three's Company" and "The Dukes of Hazard."

    Hmm. As a learning assistance teacher, I was called upon to help a
    girl in kindergarten who came to school without a word of English.
    I was told she enjoyed the movie ET so much, however, that she
    watched it numerous times. If she were older I might have
    recommended STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND....

    Different people have different preferred learning styles... and if Denis's instruction in English thus far has been mainly from
    textbooks I think it must require a great deal of courage on his
    part to interact with folks who routinely use colloquial English in Fidonet echoes.

    I also wonder about my speaking abilities. But well, time's going on. Maybe some day the echo writers in ENGLISH_TUTOR would be able to talk a little via Skype and have a baptism of fire. ;-) Although there is a difficulty -- you have a night when we have a day. ;)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Brian Klauss@1:104/116 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Jan 20 08:12:41 2021
    Re: New Year's Day.
    By: Alexander Koryagin to Ardith Hinton on Wed Jan 20 2021 02:10 pm

    I also wonder about my speaking abilities. But well, time's going on. Maybe some day the echo writers in ENGLISH_TUTOR would be able to talk a little via Skype and have a baptism of fire. ;-) Although there is a difficulty -- you have a night when we have a day. ;)

    I worked for a German company for a number of years (they acquired us). One of my first trips to Germany cost me a month of my life. It actually wasn't half bad. When I heard for the first time, "I have a stomach feeling," I had to put it into context ("I have a gut feeling" or "I have a strong feeling"). Similar, I had to catch myself whenever I'd use "bad English" whenever I'd talk (especially when I was trying to make a point). Ultimately, it was a learning experience for both of us.

    Skype, it might be interesting to help out--a trial by fire! :)

    Brian...
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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to DALLAS HINTON on Wed Jan 20 14:50:00 2021
    Ah -- usually a statement: "My stomach thinks my throat's been cut" implying >that you're absolutely starving, so much so that the stomach (if it could speak
    would ask what's wrong up there? :-)

    LOL, I thought it was either something like that, or that it meant someone
    was not eating very much. :)

    Mike


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  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mike Powell on Wed Jan 20 19:08:37 2021
    Hi, Mike -- on Jan 20 2021 at 14:50, you wrote:

    LOL, I thought it was either something like that, or that it meant someone was not eating very much. :)

    One of those very English expressions I still have! :-)


    Cheers... Dallas

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  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Mike Powell on Fri Jan 29 18:56:28 2021
    Mike Powell to Denis Mosko:

    What is grin ? because I learn English from echo,
    Friend.
    It means a "smile."

    Not quite, on account of grin's negative connotations.
    Consider, if you will, Son Houses's great song "Grinnin' in
    your face". I think its best recording is by Son himself,
    done acapella during the 1965 blues festival:

    Don't you mind people grinnin' in your face
    Don't mind people grinnin' in your face
    You just bear this in mind, a true friend is hard to find
    Don't you mind people grinnin' in your face

    Unfortunately I don't seem to have it at hand in digital
    form, but can easily upload it should you be interested.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ANTON SHEPELEV on Fri Jan 29 18:38:00 2021
    What is grin ? because I learn English from echo,
    Friend.
    It means a "smile."

    Not quite, on account of grin's negative connotations.
    Consider, if you will, Son Houses's great song "Grinnin' in
    your face". I think its best recording is by Son himself,
    done acapella during the 1965 blues festival:

    Well, I did not say it meant "polite smile." :)

    Unfortunately I don't seem to have it at hand in digital
    form, but can easily upload it should you be interested.

    I ought to be able to find a copy. I am curious to hear it.

    Mike

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  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Mike Powell on Sat Jan 30 22:00:02 2021
    Mike Powell re: smile vs. grin:

    Not quite, on account of grin's negative
    connotations. Consider, if you will, Son
    Houses's great song "Grinnin' in your face".
    Well, I did not say it meant "polite smile." :)

    I appeal to the dictionary:

    grin:
    [root]35. Cf. Groan.]
    1. To show the teeth, as a dog; to snarl.
    [1913 Webster]

    2. To set the teeth together and open the lips, or to open
    the mouth and withdraw the lips from the teeth, so as to
    show them, as in laughter, scorn, or pain.
    [1913 Webster]

    The pangs of death do make him grin. --Shak.
    [1913 Webster]

    smile:
    1. The act of smiling; a peculiar change or brightening of
    the face, which expresses pleasure, moderate joy, mirth,
    approbation, or kindness; -- opposed to frown.
    [1913 Webster]

    Sweet intercourse
    Of looks and smiles: for smiles from reason flow.
    --Milton.
    [1913 Webster]

    2. A somewhat similar expression of countenance, indicative
    of satisfaction combined with malevolent feelings, as
    contempt, scorn, etc; as, a scornful smile.
    [1913 Webster]

    Now, didn't old Shakespear know how to use the word?
    I myself wanted to defend my point by obseving that
    a grin may be present in the rictus of a dead man,
    whereas a smile does belong there. It is the
    collection of noir hard-boiled detectives I am
    reading that must have prompted the morbid example.

    I ought to be able to find a copy. I am curious
    to hear it.

    Here you are -- a rare alternate take:

    https://freeshell.de/~antonius/file_host/SonHouse-GrinninInYourFace-alt.flac

    Having no no loudspeaker connected to my PC, I ask
    to let me if it happens to be the wrong file.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ANTON SHEPELEV on Sun Jan 31 13:51:00 2021
    Not quite, on account of grin's negative
    connotations. Consider, if you will, Son
    Houses's great song "Grinnin' in your face".
    Well, I did not say it meant "polite smile." :)

    I appeal to the dictionary:

    Maybe it is a regionalism, but "grin" is most used in this part of the US without negative connotation as a synonym to "smile." I would agree grin is
    a word that requires context, as does smile.

    Here you are -- a rare alternate take:

    https://freeshell.de/~antonius/file_host/SonHouse-GrinninInYourFace-alt.fla

    Having no no loudspeaker connected to my PC, I ask
    to let me if it happens to be the wrong file.

    Thank you, I will give it a listen!

    Mike

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  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Mike Powell on Mon Feb 1 22:45:18 2021
    Mike Powell:

    Maybe it is a regionalism, but "grin" is most used in
    this part of the US without negative connotation as a
    synonym to "smile."

    I cannot confirm it from the English literature that I read.

    I would agree grin is a word that requires context, as
    does smile.

    True.

    Thank you, I will give it a listen!

    One may give a song a listen, a picture a look, an advice a
    try, a film a watch, a book a read, an idea a think or two.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ANTON SHEPELEV on Tue Feb 2 16:06:00 2021
    Thank you, I will give it a listen!

    One may give a song a listen, a picture a look, an advice a
    try, a film a watch, a book a read, an idea a think or two.

    Yes one can. :) I gave that song a listen. Really enjoyed it. Thanks
    for sharing!

    Mike


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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mike Powell on Tue Feb 2 22:15:50 2021
    Hi, Mike! Recently you wrote in a message to Anton Shepelev:

    What is grin ? because I learn English from echo,
    Friend.

    It means a "smile."

    Not quite, on account of grin's negative connotations.
    Consider, if you will, Son Houses's great song "Grinnin'
    in your face". I think its best recording is by Son
    himself, done acapella during the 1965 blues festival:

    Well, I did not say it meant "polite smile." :)


    AFAIC it's not necessarily impolite either. I saw nothing impolite about the way you used this word in your response to Carol's message... and I don't mean it to be taken that way when I use it in my own messages. I could point out that a lot of what Denis does is regarded as "mosaic plagiarism" or "patch writing" in academic circles. But as long as we understand what he is trying to do, it's not a formal research assignment, and the original authors don't object you & I may content ourselves with a "knowing smile" for now.

    Various dictionaries agree that a grin is a broad smile which often reveals the teeth. WRT connotations some add that it's an expression of e.g. pleasure, amusement, or possibly embarrassment... the "sheepish grin", maybe. Those which relate it to negative feelings such as anger & pain, and possibly triumph over someone else's misfortune, associate it *in a second definition* with the snarl of an animal threatening to attack. I did not consult Anton's 1913 Webster, but I did consult relatively recent UK & US & Canadian sources.

    I think it's possible that North Americans tend to show their teeth more readily than other folks do. I have occasionally noticed women covering their mouths when they're laughing or eating & in this case the vast majority appear to come from the Middle East or Southeast Asia. Our daughter tells me it's rude to grin... evidently because somebody told her that when she was in the primary grades. But she does it when she's really enjoying herself. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Feb 9 23:40:16 2021
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Mike Powell:

    Not quite, on account of grin's negative connotations.
    Consider, if you will, Son Houses's great song "Grinnin'
    in your face".

    Well, I did not say it meant "polite smile." :)

    I appeal to the dictionary:

    grin:
    [root]35. Cf. Groan.]


    Derived, according to one of the sources I consulted, from a Middle English word meaning "grimace". Very interesting, either way.... :-)



    1. To show the teeth, as a dog; to snarl.
    [1913 Webster]


    With some animals it's a threatening gesture... but people may show their teeth for various reasons, as noted below.



    2. To set the teeth together and open the lips, or to
    open the mouth and withdraw the lips from the teeth,
    so as to show them, as in laughter, scorn, or pain.
    [1913 Webster]



    smile:
    1. The act of smiling; a peculiar change or brightening
    of the face, which expresses pleasure, moderate joy,
    mirth, approbation, or kindness; -- opposed to frown.
    [1913 Webster]


    In general I would explain a "grin" as a "broad smile", therefore I find it interesting that the malevolent aspects are listed as #2 here. AFAIK dictionaries tend to list definitions in order of the frequency of use... and the above "brightening of the face" is what comes to my mind first.



    2. A somewhat similar expression of countenance,
    indicative of satisfaction combined with malevolent
    feelings, as contempt, scorn, etc; as, a scornful
    smile.
    [1913 Webster]



    Now, didn't old Shakespear know how to use the word?


    Of course, but the primary meaning may have changed since his time. One of the difficulties with English usage is that it's a moving target. :-Q



    I myself wanted to defend my point by obseving that
    a grin may be present in the rictus of a dead man,
    whereas a smile does belong there. It is the
    collection of noir hard-boiled detectives I am
    reading that must have prompted the morbid example.


    Perhaps. Connotations may be general or personal, and they tend to vary from time to time & from place to place. Recently Dallas & I borrowed a number of Hollywood movies in which a broad smile/grin tells us the actor has paid a lot of money to get his or her teeth capped, because the audience will see them when the character being portrayed is in love... or is having a good time... or is hoping friendliness & enthusiasm will attract potential buyers.

    WRT the dead man, I guess his facial expression might depend on how much time had elapsed before the body was discovered & on whether or not some cosmetic improvements were added by an embalmer prior to the funeral.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Feb 11 22:56:45 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Different people have different preferred learning
    styles... and if Denis's instruction in English thus
    far has been mainly from textbooks I think it must
    require a great deal of courage on his part to
    interact with folks who routinely use colloquial
    English in Fidonet echoes.

    I also wonder about my speaking abilities.


    I applaud your courage too, because generating language requires a much higher order of skill than understanding it & when you're speaking aloud you don't have time to consult a dictionary or a grammar book.... :-)



    Maybe some day the echo writers in ENGLISH_TUTOR would
    be able to talk a little via Skype and have a baptism
    of fire. ;-)


    Interesting idea. I've often thought it would be nice to visit my correspondents from Russia & elsewhere in person, but for various reasons the chances are slim to zilch. OTOH... one of the things many of us have learned from COVID-19 is how to maintain contact with our nearest & dearest via Skype (or Zoom or whatever) when we can't go out visiting the way we used to.



    Although there is a difficulty -- you have a night
    when we have a day. ;)


    Yes... but it may not be insurmountable. I see when you post from Tommi's system that you're evidently a morning person, whereas Dallas & I are not. I'm just beginning to hit my stride at 8:00 PM local time... [chuckle].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Brian Klauss on Sat Feb 13 19:26:59 2021
    Hi & welcome, Brian! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    One of my first trips to Germany cost me a month of my
    life. It actually wasn't half bad. When I heard for
    the first time, "I have a stomach feeling," I had to
    put it into context ("I have a gut feeling" or "I have
    a strong feeling").


    One of the things I find intriguing about German is that it's almost understandable, with a bit of fuzzy logic, to a native speaker of English. The grammar is something else... but I realize now that I am not alone because some very intelligent Fidonetters from northern Europe say they have difficulty with it too. I was quite amused by a Peanuts cartoon I saw recently where Snoopy... in his role as a WWI flying ace... is shot down over Germany. After consulting his phrase book, he recites a list of pronouns & prepositions. Finally he says "I surrender!" as I did years ago when I was expected to learn 24 prepositions, taking three cases, in one lesson. Others I know who have visited Germany seem to have picked up the language easily when nobody marked their grammar.... :-Q



    Skype, it might be interesting to help out--a trial by
    fire! :)


    I figure you're in Colorado... meaning your pronunciation is +/- the same as my own, I guess, except for a couple of vowel sounds. Alexander may be unsure how to respond if he doesn't know you or where you're living at present.

    Seems to me the trial by fire works in both directions. Alexander & I have been corresponding for many years... we are comfortable enough with each other to understand what's meant whether he speaks with a perfect Oxford accent & graciously accepts mine, or whether as one who lives in a busy seaport I have learned to make allowances for certain variations.

    I am quite in awe of those who have to master an unfamiliar alphabet in order to communicate with me, while I'm still grappling with theirs.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Feb 15 11:45:00 2021
    Ardith Hinton to Brian Klauss:

    One of the things I find intriguing about German is that
    it's almost understandable, with a bit of fuzzy logic,
    to a native speaker of English. The grammar is some-
    thing else...

    That put me in mind of:

    The Awful German Language, by Mark Twain:
    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/119/119-h/119-h.htm#Appendix_D

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Wed Feb 17 10:21:26 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 11.02.2021 22:56

    Different people have different preferred learning styles... and
    if Denis's instruction in English thus far has been mainly from
    textbooks I think it must require a great deal of courage on his
    part to interact with folks who routinely use colloquial English
    in Fidonet echoes.

    I also wonder about my speaking abilities.

    I applaud your courage too, because generating language requires a
    much higher order of skill than understanding it & when you're
    speaking aloud you don't have time to consult a dictionary or a
    grammar book....

    Another problem, as I had said once, is that the Russian language consists of longer words than English, and because of it a Russian thinks and understands slower. ;-) So, for training hearing skills a Russian should start hearing all the Russian video show and movies sped up by 1.5-2 times. Unfortunately I have no such a device. To be exactly I have it, but it often freeze after couple of minutes of speeded up playing. ;-<

    Maybe some day the echo writers in ENGLISH_TUTOR would be able to
    talk a little via Skype and have a baptism of fire.

    Interesting idea. I've often thought it would be nice to visit my correspondents from Russia & elsewhere in person, but for various
    reasons the chances are slim to zilch. OTOH... one of the things
    many of us have learned from COVID-19 is how to maintain contact
    with our nearest & dearest via Skype (or Zoom or whatever) when we
    can't go out visiting the way we used to.
    Although there is a difficulty -- you have a night when we have a
    day.

    Yes... but it may not be insurmountable. I see when you post from
    Tommi's system that you're evidently a morning person, whereas
    Dallas & I are not. I'm just beginning to hit my stride at 8:00 PM
    local time... [chuckle].

    I am a morning person when I go to my office. I can secretly type some messages to FIDO behind my colleges backs, but it is hardly possible to do Skype talks, without having round eyes around. ;-) On weekend, of course, I like to sleep more than usual. Although, maybe at 9am Moscow Time on Sunday it can be the window, while you have 10pm.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Brian Klauss@1:104/116 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Feb 17 17:52:34 2021
    Re: New Year's Day.
    By: Alexander Koryagin to Ardith Hinton on Wed Feb 17 2021 10:21 am

    I am a morning person when I go to my office. I can secretly type some messages to FIDO behind my colleges backs, but it is hardly possible to do Skype talks, without having round eyes around. ;-) On weekend, of course, I like to sleep more than usual. Although, maybe at 9am Moscow Time on Sunday it can be the window, while you have 10pm.

    Hi, Alexander!

    First, colleagues not colleges. At my former employer, I would be up at 1 or 2am to take conference calls with my German colleagues. They'd wonder why I would yawn on the calls. When I reminded them of the time, they'd profusely apologize. Sadly, when I'd make calls convenient to me, they were all home and getting ready for bed. Oh, well, life goes on.

    Brian...

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com (1:104/116)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Sun Feb 21 18:34:54 2021
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Another problem, as I had said once, is that the Russian
    language consists of longer words than English,

    A language does not consist of words. It merely has them.
    You may say that the vocabulary consist of words.

    and because of it a Russian thinks and understands slow-
    er. ;-)

    If you are serious, than I disagree. Your conclustion is
    wrong on so many levels:

    https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.501016043.4131/raf,750x1000,075,t,fafafa:ca443f4786.jpg

    1. you ignore the amount of words,
    2. it is likely humans to not think entirely in words.
    3. learners of English has simlar problems understanding
    fast Russian speach, e.g.: in this animated detective:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UlN6Zuz5E0

    So, for training hearing skills a Russian should start
    hearing all the Russian video show and movies sped up by
    1.5-2 times.

    He or she had better start with listening to slow and clear-
    ly articluated English speech, as found, for example, in
    early sound films.

    Unfortunately I have no such a device. To be exactly I
    have it, but it often freeze after couple of minutes of
    speeded up playing. ;-<

    You mean Youtube? From "Get lamp" -- a great documentary
    about interactive fiction -- I know that blind people use
    text-to-speech converters at what I cannot help designatig
    an incredibly high rate of fire, but I should never recom-
    mend this with real speech, because that way you lose all
    emotional content. While remastering old acoustic recordings
    of 1900s, where the original RPM was not known and could not
    be determined by key notes, such as the La at 440 Hz, AML+
    determined the correct playback speed by the degree of emo-
    tional fidelity -- and never erred as test with reference
    phonograms showed.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Feb 23 15:51:34 2021

    Hi, Anton Shepelev! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 21.02.2021 19:34

    Another problem, as I had said once, is that the Russian language
    consists of longer words than English,

    A language does not consist of words. It merely has them. You may
    say that the vocabulary consist of words.

    A machine has details or consists of details?

    and because of it a Russian thinks and understands slower.
    If you are serious, than I disagree. Your conclustion is wrong on
    so many levels:
    1. you ignore the amount of words,
    2. it is likely humans to not think entirely in words.
    3. learners of English has simlar problems understanding
    fast Russian speach, e.g.: in this animated detective:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UlN6Zuz5E0

    When they (the Russian animators) record sound they very often speed up
    voices and dialogues. A funny film demands speed and dynamic. Our famous Winnie-the-Poor also speaks quicker than the actor who voiced him.

    So, for training hearing skills a Russian should start hearing all
    the Russian video show and movies sped up by 1.5-2 times.
    He or she had better start with listening to slow and clearly
    articluated English speech, as found, for example, in early sound
    films.

    You don't understand -- most Russian people should gain skills in quick
    word processing if they want to understand quick English speech. Many
    people know how the words should be pronounced, but it is not enough.

    Unfortunately I have no such a device. To be exactly I have it,
    but it often freeze after couple of minutes of speeded up
    playing. ;-<

    You mean Youtube? From "Get lamp" -- a great documentary about

    Youtube, if run in browser, can speed up videos, but I only watch movies
    and shows recorded on my media player box. After work I use only TV set
    and I don't want use a computer with youtube. But it is of course only
    my problem. ;-) Theoretically, now it is a hummer time to buy a new TV
    set with Internet.

    interactive fiction -- I know that blind people use text-to-speech converters at what I cannot help designatig an incredibly high rate
    of fire, but I should never recommend this with real speech,
    because that way you lose all emotional content. While remastering

    When my aim is focused on training my speed skills I don't pay too much attention on such details. Besides -- you can watch two time more shows
    and movies. It is shame to spend time watching serials in Russian, but
    if you speed them up you waste less time and get more hearing skills.

    old acoustic recordings of 1900s, where the original RPM was not
    known and could not be determined by key notes, such as the La at
    440 Hz, AML+ determined the correct playback speed by the degree of emotional fidelity -- and never erred as test with reference
    phonograms showed.

    IMHO, first, a learner should learn how to hear and understand quick
    speech. Then he can enjoy emotions.


    PS: And a spell checker is extremely useful, too.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Feb 24 00:18:36 2021
    Alexander Koryagin to Anton Shepelev:

    A language does not consist of words. It merely has
    them. You may say that the vocabulary consist[s] of
    words.
    A machine has details or consists of details?

    A machine consists of details, but a language does not con-
    sist of words because words do not constitute a language.
    There is much more to language than a set of words.

    When they (the Russian animators) record sound they very
    often speed up voices and dialogues.

    No, not often.

    A funny film demands speed and dynamic.

    The artificial speed and dynamics (not dynamic!) of a sped-
    up tape is not the best idea. Imperial records used to
    speed-up the Fasts Domino phonograms before release. They
    did it for two purposes: to add "dynamics" and to make them
    harder to cover. The negative effect of the speed-up was so
    tremendous that Ace records had to release them on CD at
    their correct pitch.

    Our famous Winnie-the-Poor also speaks quicker than the
    actor who voiced him.

    That is true. But looky -- your spell-checker did not help
    you spell the name correctly, eh?

    You don't understand -- most Russian people should gain
    skills in quick word processing if they want to under-
    stand quick English speech.

    First, your recommendation is not entirely exact, because
    learners need to train their speech-recognition (word-pro-
    cessing, as you call them) skills in the language they are
    learning. There is no such thing as the general, language-
    agnostic speech-recognition skills. Second, your advice is
    true for any other learner of any other language.

    I should never recommend this with real speech, because
    that way you lose all emotional content. While remas-
    tering
    When my aim is focused on training my speed skills I
    don't pay too much attention on such details.

    Good for you, but I grow bored and disgusted when exposed to
    second-rate content. When the material is good, however,
    learning anything becomes a pleasure.

    Besides -- you can watch two time more shows and movies.

    Good for you, but I go for quality instead of quantity.

    It is shame to spend time watching serials ->

    I should agree if your sentence ended here, but you contin-
    ue:

    in Russian, but if you speed them up you waste less
    time and get more hearing skills.

    You mean TV series? English or Russian ones? In my opinion,
    TV series almost never rise to the level of art and remain a
    sort of cultural cud. I did moderately enjoy "Downton
    Abbey", though, when it was screened on our "Kultura" chan-
    nel, ad-free. Most good TV series are by today's measures
    either very short or otherwise non-conventional, e.g. the
    original Rod Serling's "Twilight Zone", or Tatiana Liozno-
    va's "Seventeen moments in spring."

    IMHO, first, a learner should learn how to hear and un-
    derstand quick speech. Then he can enjoy emotions.

    I beg to differ, for emotions facilitate both understanding
    and learing.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Feb 25 11:21:00 2021
    Alexander Koryagin:

    When they (the Russian animators) record sound they very
    often speed up voices and dialogues. A funny film de-
    mands speed and dynamic. Our famous Winnie-the-Poor also
    speaks quicker than the actor who voiced him.

    I forgot so remark that it was done not to add speed and dy-
    namics, but to change the timber of the voice: Eugeniy
    Leonov spoke slowly, so that the sped-up version would have
    normal tempo but increased pitch.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Feb 26 09:30:34 2021

    Hi, Anton Shepelev! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 24.02.2021 01:18

    <skipped>
    You don't understand -- most Russian people should gain skills in
    quick word processing if they want to understand quick English
    speech.

    First, your recommendation is not entirely exact, because learners
    need to train their speech-recognition (word-processing, as you
    call them) skills in the language they are learning. There is no
    such thing as the general, languageagnostic speech-recognition
    skills. Second, your advice is true for any other learner of any
    other language.

    I just told my thoughts on this account, to fill empty lines. ;-) Although the fact that Englishmen talk words quicker than Russians is obvious when we watch American movies.

    I should never recommend this with real speech, because that way
    you lose all emotional content. While remastering
    When my aim is focused on training my speed skills I don't pay too
    much attention on such details.

    Good for you, but I grow bored and disgusted when exposed to
    second-rate content. When the material is good, however, learning
    anything becomes a pleasure.

    For instance, when I read textbooks I have no pleasure, but I know they are useful. A great subject is not necessary. For instance, I read now
    "The Gun Seller" by Hugh Laurie. A usual not very bright subject, but the language is super, great, marvellous and original. I enjoy it, and I strongly recommend you to read it.

    Besides -- you can watch two time more shows and movies.
    Good for you, but I go for quality instead of quantity.

    I train my hearing skills, forgot?

    It is shame to spend time watching serials - >
    I should agree if your sentence ended here, but you continue:

    - > in Russian, but if you speed them up you waste less time and
    get more hearing skills.

    You mean TV series? English or Russian ones? In my opinion, TV
    series almost never rise to the level of art and remain a sort of
    cultural cud.

    Somebody in heaven and under earth like serials very much. All life on Earth is a big serial. Besides, there are some serials in Russia which are very pretty, stylish and certainly are worth to be seen once. For instance, the serial about a cool, stylish Russian fashion firm and quite ugly, but very clever girl who went to work there. Speed it up by 1.5 times and you will have a good hearing training, without boredom.

    I did moderately enjoy "Downton Abbey", though, when
    it was screened on our "Kultura" channel, ad-free. Most good TV
    series are by today's measures either very short or otherwise non- conventional, e.g. the original Rod Serling's "Twilight Zone", or
    Tatiana Lioznova's "Seventeen moments in spring."

    Certainly I have some reserve if I buy a new TV set. ;-)

    IMHO, first, a learner should learn how to hear and understand
    quick speech. Then he can enjoy emotions.

    I beg to differ, for emotions facilitate both understanding and
    learing.

    You can try to be emotional and waste less time. In general watching TV is a waste of time whatever you watch. ;-)

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Feb 26 09:33:40 2021

    Hi, Anton Shepelev! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 25.02.2021 12:21

    When they (the Russian animators) record sound they very
    often speed up voices and dialogues. A funny film de-
    mands speed and dynamic. Our famous Winnie-the-Poor also
    speaks quicker than the actor who voiced him.

    I forgot so remark that it was done not to add speed and dy-
    namics, but to change the timber of the voice: Eugeniy
    Leonov spoke slowly, so that the sped-up version would have
    normal tempo but increased pitch.

    No -- this animation is very old -- at that time they could not increase pitch without changing tempo. Such possibility had appeared only after appearing powerful computers.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Feb 26 12:01:50 2021
    Alexander Koryagin to Anton Shepelev:

    I forgot so remark that it was done not to add speed
    and dynamics, but to change the timber of the voice:
    Eugeniy Leonov spoke slowly, so that the sped-up ver-
    sion would have normal tempo but increased pitch.
    No -- this animation is very old

    Not very old if you compare it to the first animations of
    Alexander Shiryaev made in 1906 :-)

    at that time they could not increase pitch without
    changing tempo. Such possibility had appeared only after
    appearing powerful computers.

    You misunderstood me. The voice actor spoke at a lowered
    tempo. When they played it back at higher speed, the result
    was normal tempo and a higher pitch.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Feb 26 23:19:46 2021
    Alexander Koryagin to Anton Shepelev:

    Although the fact that Englishmen talk words quicker
    than Russians is obvious when we watch American movies.

    Well, I certainly do not get that impression from such TV
    shows as "What's my line?" and "You bet your life". But I do
    have trouble understading English speech -- for want of
    practice, no doubt.

    For instance, when I read textbooks I have no pleasure,
    but I know they are useful.

    I try to pick enjoyable textbooks that are a pleasure to
    read, such as the grammars by Nesfield, Baskerville &
    Sewell, and Goold Brown. Or open that famous book on calcu-
    lus -- Chrystal's "Algebra" -- to see why it is a standard
    recommendation for all programmers: Crystal shows, and by
    example encourages, crystal-clear reasoning.

    A great subject is not necessary.

    I never said it was. If fact, I agree with Akira Kurosawa in
    that it is not the plot, but the execution of the plot. Ray-
    mond Chandler put it simpler: a good plot is one that makes
    for good scenes.

    For instance, I read now "The Gun Seller" by Hugh Lau-
    rie. A usual not very bright subject, but the language
    is super, great, marvellous and original.

    Not now, but I will.

    [after looking it up in Wikipedia]
    Whooops: I see it is very recent, and not a short story but
    a novel. Usually I do not read books by living authors to
    avoid any hype and let the cultural aftermath settle down.
    It is easier for me to start from a short story, as it does
    not require a serious commitment of time. Speaking of Hugh
    Laurie, I am more likely to try P.G. Wodehouse's stories
    about the immortal Jeeves & Wooster.

    Somebody in heaven and under earth like serials very
    much. All life on Earth is a big serial. Besides, there
    are some serials in Russia which are very pretty,
    stylish and certainly are worth to be seen once. For in-
    stance, the serial about a cool, stylish Russian fashion
    firm and quite ugly, but very clever girl who went to
    work there. Speed it up by 1.5 times and you will have a
    good hearing training, without boredom.

    I am sorry, but any modern Russian TV series means boredom
    to me: no acting, no sound, no cinematography, no varation.
    They give me neither spiritual nor aesthetical gratifica-
    tion. I feel deeply ashamed for the state of the film indus-
    try in my country. One need only watch the excellent "The
    Lark" (1965) and its horrible modern remake commercially
    named "T-34" (2019) to realise the depth of degeneration.
    Only low-budget or no-budget indie movies sometimes manage
    to come out any good, but they very rare.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Sun Feb 28 22:36:43 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I applaud your courage too, because generating language
    requires a much higher order of skill than understanding
    it & when you're speaking aloud you don't have time to
    consult a dictionary or a grammar book....

    Another problem, as I had said once, is that the Russian
    language consists of longer words than English, and
    because of it a Russian thinks and understands slower. ;-)


    The English language dropped many inflections during the Middle Ages, and this trend continues with e.g. the use of the word "actor" to describe both males & females. It doesn't necessarily result in shorter words. But the pace of modern life seems to be increasing as we speak... I catch myself leaving out periods from abbreviations like "BC" because that is how others spell them. At the same time, I count myself among those who take awhile to think & understand
    ... as I do when folks like you & Anton ask really, really good questions. :-)



    So, for training hearing skills a Russian should start
    hearing all the Russian video show and movies sped up
    by 1.5-2 times.


    Maybe. A friend of ours who is totally blind can make sense of stuff read aloud in English by a computer far more easily than Dallas & I can. But I notice also that when native speakers of a foreign language address one another the pace is usually too quick for me to keep up with even if I have studied the language for some time. I'm not sure this skill would be transferable.... :-)



    I am a morning person when I go to my office. I can
    secretly type some messages to FIDO behind my colleges
    backs, but it is hardly possible to do Skype talks,
    without having round eyes around. ;-)


    I thought it might be something like that. One of the things I enjoy about Fidonet is that we get a bunch of mail in the morning, from people on the same continent, and a bunch more in the evening from people on others. Just as there are people who leap out of bed at 5:00 AM & go jogging for an hour before getting ready for work, there are people who check their Fidonet mail every day as soon as they're awake enough to take it in. Some apparently type up a storm immediately. But that's not my style, and I gather it's not yours either. :-)



    On weekend, of course, I like to sleep more than usual.


    Ah. You're a morning person on weekdays because that's what you have to do to earn a living. Dallas & I have been there too.

    When I switched to the elementary level, others commented on how much healthier I looked. My starting time there, BTW, was somewhat later. :-)



    maybe at 9am Moscow Time on Sunday it can be the window,
    while you have 10pm.


    Hmm. By my calculations you are eleven hours ahead of us... at least until Daylight Saving Time kicks in. Unfortunately, however, Dallas & I aren't available nowadays on weekends when others are. For us a Tuesday or a Thursday eening would be better. Perhaps you have some holidays which differ from ours? Monday or Wednesday evening might also work if your timing is flexible.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Mar 1 15:58:08 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 28.02.2021 22:36

    I applaud your courage too, because generating language requires a
    much higher order of skill than understanding it & when you're
    speaking aloud you don't have time to consult a dictionary or a
    grammar book....

    Another problem, as I had said once, is that the Russian language
    consists of longer words than English, and because of it a Russian
    thinks and understands slower.

    The English language dropped many inflections during the Middle
    Ages, and this trend continues with e.g. the use of the
    word "actor" to describe both males & females. It doesn't
    necessarily result in shorter words. But the pace of modern life
    seems to be increasing as we speak... I catch myself leaving out
    periods from abbreviations like "BC" because that is how others
    spell them. At the same time, I count myself among those who take
    awhile to think & understand.. as I do when folks like you & Anton
    ask really, really good questions.

    Do you you know there are bilingual books, when on the left page is the English original and on the right page is Russian translation. The latter is always longer.

    <skipped>
    I am a morning person when I go to my office. I can secretly type
    some messages to FIDO behind my colleges backs, but it is hardly
    possible to do Skype talks, without having round eyes around.

    I thought it might be something like that. One of the things I
    enjoy about Fidonet is that we get a bunch of mail in the morning,
    from people on the same continent, and a bunch more in the evening
    from people on others. Just as there are people who leap out of bed
    at 5:00 AM & go jogging for an hour before getting ready for work,
    there are people who check their Fidonet mail every day as soon as
    they're awake enough to take it in. Some apparently type up a storm immediately. But that's not my style, and I gather it's not yours
    either.

    An off-line discussion is a good thing, I agree. ;)

    On weekend, of course, I like to sleep more than usual.
    Ah. You're a morning person on weekdays because that's what you
    have to do to earn a living. Dallas & I have been there too.
    When I switched to the elementary level, others commented on how
    much healthier I looked. My starting time there, BTW, was somewhat
    later.

    What time is too late for you? ;-)

    maybe at 9am Moscow Time on Sunday it can be the window, while you
    have 10pm.

    Hmm. By my calculations you are eleven hours ahead of us... at
    least until Daylight Saving Time kicks in. Unfortunately, however,

    Google says Vancouver time is behind Moscow time by 11 hours in winter.

    Dallas & I aren't available nowadays on weekends when others are.
    For us a Tuesday or a Thursday eening would be better. Perhaps you
    have some holidays which differ from ours? Monday or Wednesday
    evening might also work if your timing is flexible....

    The 8-th of March, for instance. It could be the first lumpy pancake. The only problem is, however, how we can tell each other Skype aliases without disclosing them to some hooligans. ;-) I can't invent anything better than creating a temporal e-mail box where you can send your Skype alias: galexkotemp@gmail.com.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Mar 1 16:34:42 2021
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Do you you know there are bilingual books, when on the
    left page is the English original and on the right page
    is Russian translation. The latter is always longer.

    Well-observed! I have typeset such parallel texts myself.
    But check also those where the Russian is the original. Is
    the Russian part there longer too? I have taken a wild shot
    at the Moon and counterposed the Russian and English ver-
    sions of the opening paragraph of Tolstoy's resurrection:--

    Как ни старались люди, со- All the efforts of several
    бравшись в одно небольшое ме- hundred thousand people,
    сто несколько сот тысяч, crowded in a small space, to
    изуродовать ту землю, на ко- disfigure the land on which
    торой они жались, как ни за- they lived; all the stone
    бивали камнями землю, чтобы they covered it with to keep
    ничего не росло на ней, как it barren; how so diligently
    ни счищали всякую пробивающу- every sprouting blade of
    юся травку, как ни дымили ка- grass was removed; all the
    менным углем и нефтью, как ни smoke of coal and naphtha;
    обрезывали деревья и ни выго- all the cutting down of trees
    няли всех животных и and driving off of cattle
    птиц, -- весна была весною could not shut out the
    даже и в городе. Солнце гре- spring, even from the city.
    ло, трава, оживая, росла и The sun was shedding its
    зеленела везде, где только не light; the grass, revivified,
    соскребли ее, не только на was blooming forth, where it
    газонах бульваров, но и между was left uncut, not only on
    плитами камней, и березы, то- the greenswards of the boule-
    поли, черемуха распускали vard, but between the flag-
    свои клейкие и пахучие ли- stones, and the birches,
    стья, липы надували лопавшие- poplars and wild-berry trees
    ся почки; галки, воробьи и were unfolding their viscous
    голуби по-весеннему радостно leaves; the limes were un-
    готовили уже гнезда, и мухи folding their buds; the daws,
    жужжали у стен, пригретые sparrows and pigeons were
    солнцем. Веселы были и расте- joyfully making their custom-
    ния, и птицы, и насекомые, и ary nests, and the flies were
    дети. Но люди -- большие, buzzing on the sun-warmed
    взрослые люди -- не переста- walls. Plants, birds, insects
    вали обманывать и мучать себя and children were equally
    и друг друга. Люди считали, joyful. Only men -- grown-up
    что священно и важно не это men -- continued cheating and
    весеннее утро, не эта красота tormenting themselves and
    мира Божия, данная для блага each other. People saw noth-
    всех существ, -- красота, ing holy in this spring morn-
    располагающая к миру, согла- ing, in this beauty of God's
    сию и любви, а священно и world -- a gift to all living
    важно то, что? они сами выду- creatures -- inclining to
    мали, чтобы властвовать друг peace, good-will and love,
    над другом. but worshiped their own in-
    ventions for imposing their
    will on each other.

    As you see, the English translation is longer than the Rus-
    sian original, even though it is incomlete and omits some of
    the Russian words. For example it has "grown-up men"instead
    of "mature, grown up men".

    My opinion, therefore, is that a good translation is gener-
    ally longer than the original because it tries to follow the
    author's style on a language not adapted to it.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Mar 1 19:04:50 2021
    Ardith Hinton:

    The English language dropped many inflections during the
    Middle Ages, and this trend continues with e.g. the use
    of the word "actor" to describe both males & females.

    I fear this change is political, but agree that we are los-
    ing `whom`, `whence`, `whither`, `thou`, `thee`, `ye`, &c.

    It doesn't necessarily result in shorter words. But the
    pace of modern life seems to be increasing as we
    speak...

    I have heard this referred to as an excluse for or the cause
    of many negative changes in our lives, but it is nobody but
    ourselves who are to blame. We have let smartphones and so-
    cial networks enslave our society and largely supplant hu-
    mane commication, the iconic example being a couple at a
    restaurant, each half absorbed in his or her own smartphone
    with a bluish face.

    When I switched to the elementary level, others comment-
    ed on how much healthier I looked.

    Why do we not hear from your pupils in these group?

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Brian Klauss on Mon Mar 1 22:30:13 2021
    Hi, Brian! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    First, colleagues not colleges.


    Thank you. Many hands make light work.... :-)



    At my former employer, I would be up at 1 or 2am to take
    conference calls with my German colleagues. They'd wonder
    why I would yawn on the calls. When I reminded them of
    the time, they'd profusely apologize.


    For many years Dallas & I received telephone calls from Florida at 5:00 AM asking e.g. "What would you like me to do with this load of rutabagas?" I'll leave it to the reader to imagine what some people might have told them to do, but we answered the question with another question... do you realize you're calling somebody's home in Vancouver BC & it's 5:00 AM here? The truck drivers who made the calls apologized profusely when they understood what was going on. It seemed there was an error in the directory a lot of them were using.... :-)



    Sadly, when I'd make calls convenient to me, they were
    all home and getting ready for bed. Oh, well, life goes
    on.


    Uh-huh. The situation I alluded to did clear up after awhile... I guess because the word got around &/or because the error was emended in a later version of the directory. Now that our aged relatives in the UK have passed on we also keep the ringer volume turned down when we're sleeping, however. Those who are still alive use e-mail when they have something important to say. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Mar 2 09:23:06 2021

    Hi, Anton Shepelev! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 01.03.2021 17:34

    сию и любви, а священно и world -- a gift to all living
    важно то, что? они сами выду- creatures -- inclining to
    мали, чтобы властвовать друг peace, good-will and love,
    над другом. but worshiped their own in-
    ventions for imposing their
    will on each other.


    As you see, the English translation is longer than the Russian
    original, even though it is incomlete and omits some of the Russian
    words. For example it has "grown-up men"instead of "mature, grown
    up men".

    My opinion, therefore, is that a good translation is generally
    longer than the original because it tries to follow the author's
    style on a language not adapted to it.

    Maybe -- a translation is generally longer. In this case, in addition to the fact that Russian words are generally longer than English, it can be an additional factor that makes it difficult for a Russian to understand quick English speech. A translation from English makes it longer! ;-)

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Mar 2 11:37:42 2021
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Maybe -- a translation is generally longer. In this
    case, in addition to the fact that Russian words are
    generally longer than English, it can be an additional
    factor that makes it difficult for a Russian to under-
    stand quick English speech. A translation from English
    makes it longer! ;-)

    You will explain anything. If Russian words were generally
    shorter than English ones, you could again say that the
    sheer length of English words hampered Russians in perceiv-
    ing them at high rate.

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Mar 4 08:17:24 2021

    Hi, Anton Shepelev! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 27.02.2021 00:19

    <skipped>
    For instance, I read now "The Gun Seller" by Hugh Laurie. A usual
    not very bright subject, but the language is super, great,
    marvellous and original.

    Not now, but I will.
    [after looking it up in Wikipedia] Whooops: I see it is very
    recent, and not a short story but a novel. Usually I do not read
    books by living authors to avoid any hype and let the cultural
    aftermath settle down. It is easier for me to start from a short
    story, as it does not require a serious commitment of time.
    Speaking of Hugh Laurie, I am more likely to try P.G. Wodehouse's
    stories about the immortal Jeeves & Wooster.

    It is not a very recent book, but is still up to date. The matter is that the modern literature is about this world, not about the world that is dead for long times, and almost all events there are old fashioned and covered with dust.

    Somebody in heaven and under earth like serials very much. All
    life on Earth is a big serial. Besides, there are some serials in
    Russia which are very pretty, stylish and certainly are worth to
    be seen once. For instance, the serial about a cool, stylish
    Russian fashion firm and quite ugly, but very clever girl who went
    to work there. Speed it up by 1.5 times and you will have a good
    hearing training, without boredom.

    I am sorry, but any modern Russian TV series means boredom to me:
    no acting, no sound, no cinematography, no varation. They give me
    neither spiritual nor aesthetical gratification.

    Perhaps I would look funny ;-), but try to find in the Internet and watch a couple series of "Ne rodis krasivoi". It is a fresh and stylish approach to this genre. And indeed it had a deserved, great success in Russia about 10 year ago.

    I feel deeply
    ashamed for the state of the film industry in my country. One need
    only watch the excellent "The Lark" (1965) and its horrible modern
    remake commercially named "T-34" (2019) to realise the depth of degeneration. Only low-budget or no-budget indie movies sometimes
    manage to come out any good, but they very rare.

    IMHO you should avoid serials with propaganda.

    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Mar 4 13:34:49 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Do you you know there are bilingual books, when
    on the left page is the English original and on
    the right page is Russian translation.
    The latter is always longer.


    One of my friends at university, who happened to be Roman Catholic, told me she had a prayer book with English on one side & Latin on the other. I didn't think to ask her which was longer. But I've noticed, when I see cooking instructions written in English & French, that it generally requires more space to express the same idea in the latter. I realize this may be at least in part because Francophones don't use possessives the way Anglophones do. They'll say "la plume de ma tante", e.g., where we'd say "my aunt's pen". I don't know how this relates to Russian. But I see that if one language has a word which isn't easily translatable into another, a little more verbiage may be needed.... :-)



    Some apparently type up a storm immediately. But
    that's not my style, and I gather it's not yours
    either.

    An off-line discussion is a good thing, I agree. ;)


    Uh-huh. As we speak, I'm working on five or six replies to various participants in this echo. They'll remain in my writing area until I decide to post them manually & AFAIK folks using offline readers can do likewise.... :-)



    What time is too late for you? ;-)


    Probably about 11:00 PM by our time, because we may talk up a storm with you & we may take awhile to defuse afterwards... [wry grin].



    By my calculations you are eleven hours ahead of us...
    at least until Daylight Saving Time kicks in.

    Google says Vancouver time is behind Moscow time by 11
    hours in winter.


    Same idea, different perspective.... :-)



    The 8-th of March, for instance.


    Your time or our time? The evening of this day would probably work for us. But by my calculations, it would be Tuesday morning in Russia.... :-Q



    I can't invent anything better than creating a
    temporal e-mail box where you can send your Skype
    alias: galexkotemp@gmail.com.


    Sounds like a plan... I'll look into that when we find a date which works for you as well as for Dallas & me. Thanks. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Mar 5 09:05:02 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 04.03.2021 13:34

    Do you you know there are bilingual books, when on the left page
    is the English original and on the right page is Russian
    translation. The latter is always longer.

    One of my friends at university, who happened to be Roman Catholic,
    told me she had a prayer book with English on one side & Latin on
    the other. I didn't think to ask her which was longer. But I've
    noticed, when I see cooking instructions written in English &
    French, that it generally requires more space to express the same
    idea in the latter. I realize this may be at least in part because Francophones don't use possessives the way Anglophones do. They'll
    say "la plume de ma tante", e.g., where we'd say "my aunt's pen". I
    don't know how this relates to Russian. But I see that if one
    language has a word which isn't easily translatable into another, a
    little more verbiage may be needed....

    If you let me witter more, IMHO Russian and French have many similar features. I think it is because the fact that in the Russian history French was a very important element - all the noble and educated people in Russia spoke French from childhood and even despise the Russian language as vulgar. During this period French influenced very much on the Russian language. And one common similarity IMHO is that French and Russian phrases are longer than English. ;) Everybody knows that in France they don't like learn English. They pretend that they love French very much, but in reality, IMHO, they meet with the same problem why many Russians can't understand English -- English is too quick for them. ;-)

    <skipped>
    What time is too late for you?

    Probably about 11:00 PM by our time, because we may talk up a storm
    with you & we may take awhile to defuse afterwards... [wry grin].

    I believe the main problem can be opposite - to find what to say, at least for me. But well, like in old time in school at the English lesson, I can tell you that I live in Russia, I have a dog and etc. ;-)

    By my calculations you are eleven hours ahead of us... at least
    until Daylight Saving Time kicks in.
    Google says Vancouver time is behind Moscow time by 11 hours in
    winter.
    Same idea, different perspective....

    The 8-th of March, for instance.
    Your time or our time? The evening of this day would probably work
    for us. But by my calculations, it would be Tuesday morning in
    Russia....: - Q

    So, 9am Moscow time in any work day is OK for me, unless I have some urgent business in my office. I exaggerated that I can't talk for 10 minutes in my office. Yes, I can do it easily, and there is no problem concerning "round eyes around". ;-)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Mar 9 19:36:57 2021
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    it was done not to add speed and dynamics, but to change
    the timber of the voice:


    Usage note: The English language has adopted many words from French ... e.g. "litre", "metre", and "theatre"... which USAians prefer to spell with an "-er" ending. That's not the case here. USAians make the same distinction between "timbre" and "timber" Canadians do in spelling, but not necessarily in pronunciation. A few years from now, of course, things may be different. :-Q

    The first pertains to tone colour or sound quality... the acoustical principle which enables us to recognize the voices of our nearest & dearest or to distinguish between an oboe & a clarinet when we can't see who &/or what is involved, while the second pertains to trees or to the wood derived therefrom.



    Eugeniy Leonov spoke slowly, so that the sped-up version
    would have normal tempo but increased pitch.


    I imagine the same applies to "Alvin and the Chipmunks" (1958). :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Mar 11 00:29:41 2021
    Ardith Hinton:

    Usage note: The English language has adopted
    many words from French .. e.g. "litre", "metre",
    and "theatre"... which USAians prefer to spell
    with an "-er" ending. That's not the case here.
    USAians make the same distinction between "tim-
    bre" and "timber" Canadians do in spelling, but
    not necessarily in pronunciation. A few years
    from now, of course, things may be different.
    :-Q

    The first pertains to tone colour or
    sound quality... the acoustical principle which
    enables us to recognize the voices of our near-
    est & dearest or to distinguish between an oboe
    & a clarinet when we can't see who &/or what is
    involved, while the second pertains to trees or
    to the wood derived therefrom.

    Thanks for the explanation, Ardith. It was a mental
    sleep, but you reminded me of this interesting phe-
    nomena, when the same word imported by different
    routes acquires different meanings. The original
    meaning of `timbre' is of course wood, but the
    pecuiliar warm colouration of the sound of wooden
    musical instruments lent the French spelling a new
    meaning.

    Casting about for more examples, I looked up `fric-
    tion' and `frisson' and learned the name of the phe-
    nomena -- doublet.

    --- Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.30; i686-pc-mingw32)
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Apr 20 23:40:11 2021
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    [re timbre & timber]
    The first pertains to tone colour or sound quality...
    the acoustical principle which enables us to recognize
    the voices of our nearest & dearest or to distinguish
    between an oboe & a clarinet when we can't see who &/or
    what is involved, while the second pertains to trees or
    to the wood derived therefrom.

    Thanks for the explanation, Ardith. It was a mental
    sleep,


    Not to worry. IMHO your usage of English is very good & I am quite in awe of anyone here who has succeeded in mastering a foreign alphabet. :-))



    but you reminded me of this interesting phenomena,


    Singular -- phenomenon. Plural -- phenomena, from Latin via Greek.



    when the same word imported by different routes
    acquires different meanings. The original
    meaning of `timbre' is of course wood, but the
    pecuiliar warm colouration of the sound of wooden
    musical instruments lent the French spelling a new
    meaning.


    Yes, I understand. I like the tone quality of wooden instruments & I'm interested in doublets too. Another example which stuck in my mind when I first ran across it is "cattle" and "chattel". Once again, while the meanings as listed in the dictionary are not the same I can see a relationship.... :-)



    Casting about for more examples, I looked up
    friction' and `frisson' and learned the name
    of the phenomena -- doublet.


    I hadn't thought of this example, but my GAGE CANADIAN agrees. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)