• Bottle grenades, 3rd round

    From Joerg@news@analogconsultants.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Tue Feb 5 15:31:20 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    Being extra-diligent about cleaning every single bottle with boiling
    water and dish washer powder, making sure the beer is completely
    fermented out and having reduced corn sugar to 2-1/2oz per 5-gallon
    batch it happened again on Sunday ... *KAPOOF* ... a sturdy Grolsch blew
    off its bottom.

    This is a Saison brewed on Dec-18, US-05 yeast, finished primary on
    Dec-31 at 1.014 and with almost no air lock activity left. Sat in
    secondary for another two weeks with barely any air lock activity. The fermentation chamber is very well controlled at 68F for the primaries
    and 63F for the secondaries (unless I need other temps). Bottled on
    Jan-14. It's not very warm in the house. Most of the time the beer sits downstairs at 60F-65F, then gets hauled into a kitchen cabinet where it
    is about 68F and this is where a bottle exploded. We drank another one
    later and it showed tons of carbonation, foaming up the whole glass at
    first pour. The taste is good and same as always, no off-flavors or
    anything.

    My primary vessels are stainless and the secondaries are blue water
    cooler bottles, all meticulously cleaned and sanitized. The beer bottles
    get sanitized by a 1min and often a lot longer soak in Starsan solution
    and I mean completely drowned with no air left inside.

    What on earth can cause this? 2-1/2oz of sugar is already half the
    quantity recommended by carbonation calculators. Should I go to 2oz or
    maybe even 1-1/2oz?

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Baloonon@baloonon@hootmali.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Thu Feb 7 00:59:59 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote :

    Being extra-diligent about cleaning every single bottle with boiling
    water and dish washer powder, making sure the beer is completely
    fermented out and having reduced corn sugar to 2-1/2oz per 5-gallon
    batch it happened again on Sunday ... *KAPOOF* ... a sturdy Grolsch
    blew off its bottom.

    This is a Saison brewed on Dec-18, US-05 yeast, finished primary on
    Dec-31 at 1.014 and with almost no air lock activity left. Sat in
    secondary for another two weeks with barely any air lock activity. The fermentation chamber is very well controlled at 68F for the primaries
    and 63F for the secondaries (unless I need other temps). Bottled on
    Jan-14. It's not very warm in the house. Most of the time the beer
    sits downstairs at 60F-65F, then gets hauled into a kitchen cabinet
    where it is about 68F and this is where a bottle exploded. We drank
    another one later and it showed tons of carbonation, foaming up the
    whole glass at first pour. The taste is good and same as always, no off-flavors or anything.

    My primary vessels are stainless and the secondaries are blue water
    cooler bottles, all meticulously cleaned and sanitized. The beer
    bottles get sanitized by a 1min and often a lot longer soak in Starsan solution and I mean completely drowned with no air left inside.

    What on earth can cause this? 2-1/2oz of sugar is already half the
    quantity recommended by carbonation calculators. Should I go to 2oz or
    maybe even 1-1/2oz?

    Yeah, that sounds weird. US05 doesn't usually stall out as much as some
    other yeasts, and it sounds like you're letting fermentation finish.
    1.014 doesn't sound high, unless the OG was something like 1.040, so
    it's probably not a lot of undigested sugar. With that long of a
    secondary, if an infection was happening in the fermenters it ought to
    show up well before bottling.

    Maybe try cold crashing if you can get the fermenters outside into low
    temps? Although that may not be the issue either.

    When you say you sanitize the bottles, I assume you sanitize the caps
    too.

    Maybe try a different cleaning routine on a subset of bottles and see if
    that variable matters. For instance, soak overnight a dozen or two in a solution of oxygen bleach dissolved in hot water then rinse well, mark
    them, and then do the same sanitizing routine and see if any of the
    different bottles burst. Oxygen bleach is very good at dissolving caked
    on residues, so maybe, just maybe that's the issue. It can't really
    hurt.

    It's also possible that there's something getting transmitted in the
    hoses or spigots, so giving those an overnight soak in Oxygen bleach
    might help, or even replacing them with new ones. Although if the same
    ones are used in the early stages, it's hard to see how that would
    matter during bottling.

    Maybe the bottling process is somehow involving a lot of oxygen being introduced to the mix and/or a lot of yeast is somehow getting
    transferrred to some or all of the bottles? Maybe keep an eye on the
    tubing to see if there are a lot of bubbles or particles coming through?

    Maybe some of the bottles are just scratched up and harboring bacteria,
    or are structurally unsound. It may be time to bite the bullet and buy commercial beer and then reuse fresh bottles. If you do, it might be
    worth marking them somehow and seeing if that subset performs
    differently from the main batch of bottles you're using.
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Joerg@news@analogconsultants.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Thu Feb 7 11:11:03 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    On 2019-02-06 16:59, Baloonon wrote:
    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote :

    Being extra-diligent about cleaning every single bottle with boiling
    water and dish washer powder, making sure the beer is completely
    fermented out and having reduced corn sugar to 2-1/2oz per 5-gallon
    batch it happened again on Sunday ... *KAPOOF* ... a sturdy Grolsch
    blew off its bottom.

    This is a Saison brewed on Dec-18, US-05 yeast, finished primary on
    Dec-31 at 1.014 and with almost no air lock activity left. Sat in
    secondary for another two weeks with barely any air lock activity. The
    fermentation chamber is very well controlled at 68F for the primaries
    and 63F for the secondaries (unless I need other temps). Bottled on
    Jan-14. It's not very warm in the house. Most of the time the beer
    sits downstairs at 60F-65F, then gets hauled into a kitchen cabinet
    where it is about 68F and this is where a bottle exploded. We drank
    another one later and it showed tons of carbonation, foaming up the
    whole glass at first pour. The taste is good and same as always, no
    off-flavors or anything.

    My primary vessels are stainless and the secondaries are blue water
    cooler bottles, all meticulously cleaned and sanitized. The beer
    bottles get sanitized by a 1min and often a lot longer soak in Starsan
    solution and I mean completely drowned with no air left inside.

    What on earth can cause this? 2-1/2oz of sugar is already half the
    quantity recommended by carbonation calculators. Should I go to 2oz or
    maybe even 1-1/2oz?

    Yeah, that sounds weird. US05 doesn't usually stall out as much as some
    other yeasts, and it sounds like you're letting fermentation finish.
    1.014 doesn't sound high, unless the OG was something like 1.040, so
    it's probably not a lot of undigested sugar. ...


    The Saison started out at 1.050. In secondary it must have dropped much
    below 1.014. I only measure after primary to reduce the risk of
    contamination. If the air lock is totally dormant I figure there can't
    be any undigested sugars left. The yeast must still be alive in there
    because carbonation in the bottles always worked.


    ... With that long of a secondary, if an infection was happening in the fermenters it ought to
    show up well before bottling.


    An infection should probably also show up as an after-taste and I didn't
    have any off-flavors so far in over 120 brewed batches. Even in one case
    where I accidentally racked off into the wrong secondary vessel which
    wasn't sanitized.


    Maybe try cold crashing if you can get the fermenters outside into low
    temps? Although that may not be the issue either.


    Wouldn't cold-crashing just make the yeast dormant and it'll come back
    when bottled?


    When you say you sanitize the bottles, I assume you sanitize the caps
    too.


    Yes, they reside submerged in Starsan solution for at least 10mins but
    most beer I bottle into Grolsch bottles which have flip-tops. The
    majority of grenading happened in the regular capped bottles because
    they are of inferior strength. Except for some Belgian ones and the
    500ml German bottles which also never grenaded.


    Maybe try a different cleaning routine on a subset of bottles and see if
    that variable matters. For instance, soak overnight a dozen or two in a solution of oxygen bleach dissolved in hot water then rinse well, mark
    them, and then do the same sanitizing routine and see if any of the
    different bottles burst. Oxygen bleach is very good at dissolving caked
    on residues, so maybe, just maybe that's the issue. It can't really
    hurt.


    We are almost doing that already by letting hot water sit in each bottle
    after we poured. Sometimes overnight. Before putting them away after
    drying I visually check every bottle against a bright light, to make
    sure there isn't the slightest of haze anywhere in it.


    It's also possible that there's something getting transmitted in the
    hoses or spigots, so giving those an overnight soak in Oxygen bleach
    might help, or even replacing them with new ones. Although if the same
    ones are used in the early stages, it's hard to see how that would
    matter during bottling.


    I use the same racking cane and hose for siphoning from the brew kettle
    into primary, primary to secondary, secondary to bottling bucket and
    then bottling bucket to bottling wand and into the bottles. After each
    step I sprinkle a few granules of PBW into the hose, add hot water,
    shake and let it hang as a U-shape for at least one day. Then I empty
    it, rinse and let it hang vertically until dry. The racking cane and
    bottling wand are thoroughly cleaned with dishwashing liquid, Q-tips (as
    a "cleaning shuttle" back and forth) and almost boiling-hot water. Clean
    as a whistle. Of course, they also get a good Starsan soaking before
    ever touching wort or beer.


    Maybe the bottling process is somehow involving a lot of oxygen being introduced to the mix and/or a lot of yeast is somehow getting
    transferrred to some or all of the bottles? Maybe keep an eye on the
    tubing to see if there are a lot of bubbles or particles coming through?


    Sometimes there are small bubbles but usually not. I could not detect
    any correlation between that and grenading. What I do before bottling is
    this:

    I boil 2-1/2oz of corn sugar in about 12oz of water for at least five
    minutes, then let the pot cool on the large steel bottom of a drill
    press, lid closed. This gets poured first into the sanitized bottling
    bucket. I siphon the beer from secondary into that sugar water for a
    good mix but without any splashing or gurgling. Then I use a sanitized
    long spoon to lift up any sugar concentration that might have favored
    the bottom, 10-12 times, again slowly and without splashing.


    Maybe some of the bottles are just scratched up and harboring bacteria,
    or are structurally unsound. It may be time to bite the bullet and buy commercial beer and then reuse fresh bottles.


    That's where these bottles mostly come from. They look totally pristine,
    no scratches. Meantime we have thrown away Sierra Nevada bottles, Kona
    bottles and any others that have proven to fail too often under
    carbonation pressure.


    ... If you do, it might be
    worth marking them somehow and seeing if that subset performs
    differently from the main batch of bottles you're using.


    I really don't think there'd be any difference. When holding against a
    bright halogen light there are no visible scratches, no haze, nothing
    that even remotely points to residue accumulation.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Baloonon@baloonon@hootmali.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Fri Feb 8 01:40:55 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

    On 2019-02-06 16:59, Baloonon wrote:

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote :

    Yeah, that sounds weird. US05 doesn't usually stall out as much as
    some other yeasts, and it sounds like you're letting fermentation
    finish. 1.014 doesn't sound high, unless the OG was something like
    1.040, so it's probably not a lot of undigested sugar. ...

    The Saison started out at 1.050. In secondary it must have dropped
    much
    below 1.014. I only measure after primary to reduce the risk of contamination. If the air lock is totally dormant I figure there can't
    be any undigested sugars left. The yeast must still be alive in there because carbonation in the bottles always worked.

    Airlocks aren't the best indicator, since some yeasts will drop out
    before finishing up, and can get reactivated if they are roused. US05 is rarely like that, though.

    ... With that long of a
    secondary, if an infection was happening in the fermenters it ought
    to show up well before bottling.

    An infection should probably also show up as an after-taste and I
    didn't have any off-flavors so far in over 120 brewed batches. Even
    in one case where I accidentally racked off into the wrong secondary
    vessel which wasn't sanitized.

    I've had one or two, and you would know it if you had one in a secondary
    held that long. You'll see colonies floating on top, you'll get a smell
    like vinegar or aspirin... It's not an easy thing to miss.

    Maybe try cold crashing if you can get the fermenters outside into
    low temps? Although that may not be the issue either.

    Wouldn't cold-crashing just make the yeast dormant and it'll come back
    when bottled?

    If it's done fermenting, sometimes there is a benefit to making sure the
    yeast drops and forms a solid cake. It sometimes helps limit the amount
    of yeast that gets transferred to the bottling bucket and sometimes
    avoids too much ending up in a single bottle.

    When you say you sanitize the bottles, I assume you sanitize the caps
    too.

    Yes, they reside submerged in Starsan solution for at least 10mins but
    most beer I bottle into Grolsch bottles which have flip-tops. The
    majority of grenading happened in the regular capped bottles because
    they are of inferior strength. Except for some Belgian ones and the
    500ml German bottles which also never grenaded.

    Maybe try a different cleaning routine on a subset of bottles and see
    if that variable matters. For instance, soak overnight a dozen or two
    in a solution of oxygen bleach dissolved in hot water then rinse
    well, mark them, and then do the same sanitizing routine and see if
    any of the different bottles burst. Oxygen bleach is very good at
    dissolving caked on residues, so maybe, just maybe that's the issue.
    It can't really hurt.

    We are almost doing that already by letting hot water sit in each
    bottle after we poured. Sometimes overnight. Before putting them away
    after drying I visually check every bottle against a bright light, to
    make sure there isn't the slightest of haze anywhere in it.

    You may want to just try some unscented oxygen bleach. It's cheap, it's
    much less nasty stuff than regular chlorine bleach, and when you're done
    you can just dump the solution into the washing machine for your
    clothes. It can't hurt.

    It's also possible that there's something getting transmitted in the
    hoses or spigots, so giving those an overnight soak in Oxygen bleach
    might help, or even replacing them with new ones. Although if the
    same ones are used in the early stages, it's hard to see how that
    would matter during bottling.

    I use the same racking cane and hose for siphoning from the brew
    kettle into primary, primary to secondary, secondary to bottling
    bucket and then bottling bucket to bottling wand and into the bottles.
    After each step I sprinkle a few granules of PBW into the hose, add
    hot water,
    shake and let it hang as a U-shape for at least one day. Then I empty
    it, rinse and let it hang vertically until dry. The racking cane and bottling wand are thoroughly cleaned with dishwashing liquid, Q-tips
    (as a "cleaning shuttle" back and forth) and almost boiling-hot water.
    Clean as a whistle. Of course, they also get a good Starsan soaking
    before ever touching wort or beer.

    It sounds like you're more rigorous than I am.

    Maybe the bottling process is somehow involving a lot of oxygen being
    introduced to the mix and/or a lot of yeast is somehow getting
    transferrred to some or all of the bottles? Maybe keep an eye on the
    tubing to see if there are a lot of bubbles or particles coming
    through?

    Sometimes there are small bubbles but usually not. I could not detect
    any correlation between that and grenading. What I do before bottling
    is this:

    I boil 2-1/2oz of corn sugar in about 12oz of water for at least five minutes, then let the pot cool on the large steel bottom of a drill
    press, lid closed. This gets poured first into the sanitized bottling bucket. I siphon the beer from secondary into that sugar water for a
    good mix but without any splashing or gurgling. Then I use a sanitized
    long spoon to lift up any sugar concentration that might have favored
    the bottom, 10-12 times, again slowly and without splashing.

    That might be overkill, but to be honest I don't think there's any major oxygenation happening there.

    Maybe some of the bottles are just scratched up and harboring
    bacteria, or are structurally unsound. It may be time to bite the
    bullet and buy commercial beer and then reuse fresh bottles.

    That's where these bottles mostly come from. They look totally
    pristine,
    no scratches. Meantime we have thrown away Sierra Nevada bottles, Kona bottles and any others that have proven to fail too often under
    carbonation pressure.

    ... If you do, it might be
    worth marking them somehow and seeing if that subset performs
    differently from the main batch of bottles you're using.

    I really don't think there'd be any difference. When holding against a bright halogen light there are no visible scratches, no haze, nothing
    that even remotely points to residue accumulation.

    Maybe it's the Starsan? It's pretty shelf stable, but maybe something
    weird happened to it? Maybe the measuring spoon you're using is somehow
    wrong and you're using too little? Unusual water chemistry in tap water supposedly limits its effectiveness.

    Otherwise, I'm pretty much mystified. There isn't some environmental
    factor, like you bottle in a commercial bakery, is there....
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Joerg@news@analogconsultants.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Sat Feb 9 15:51:48 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    On 2019-02-07 17:40, Baloonon wrote:
    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

    On 2019-02-06 16:59, Baloonon wrote:

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote :

    Yeah, that sounds weird. US05 doesn't usually stall out as much as
    some other yeasts, and it sounds like you're letting fermentation
    finish. 1.014 doesn't sound high, unless the OG was something like
    1.040, so it's probably not a lot of undigested sugar. ...

    The Saison started out at 1.050. In secondary it must have dropped
    much
    below 1.014. I only measure after primary to reduce the risk of
    contamination. If the air lock is totally dormant I figure there can't
    be any undigested sugars left. The yeast must still be alive in there
    because carbonation in the bottles always worked.

    Airlocks aren't the best indicator, since some yeasts will drop out
    before finishing up, and can get reactivated if they are roused. US05 is rarely like that, though.


    However, sometimes I use trub from other beer that had US-05 yeast.
    Shouldn't be a problem though. Yeast multiplies and lives healthily
    until there are no more sugars to digest. Unless tmeps get too low but I
    built a digitally controlled heater to make sure that doesn't happen.


    ... With that long of a
    secondary, if an infection was happening in the fermenters it ought
    to show up well before bottling.

    An infection should probably also show up as an after-taste and I
    didn't have any off-flavors so far in over 120 brewed batches. Even
    in one case where I accidentally racked off into the wrong secondary
    vessel which wasn't sanitized.

    I've had one or two, and you would know it if you had one in a secondary
    held that long. You'll see colonies floating on top, you'll get a smell
    like vinegar or aspirin... It's not an easy thing to miss.


    That's what I thought, it would taste really funky.


    Maybe try cold crashing if you can get the fermenters outside into
    low temps? Although that may not be the issue either.

    Wouldn't cold-crashing just make the yeast dormant and it'll come back
    when bottled?

    If it's done fermenting, sometimes there is a benefit to making sure the yeast drops and forms a solid cake.


    There is always a white or light beige cake at the bottom of secondary.


    ... It sometimes helps limit the amount
    of yeast that gets transferred to the bottling bucket and sometimes
    avoids too much ending up in a single bottle.


    Hard to control but isn't it the amount of residual plus added sugars
    present in each bottle that determines the level of carbonation and thus pressure?

    [...]


    Maybe try a different cleaning routine on a subset of bottles and see
    if that variable matters. For instance, soak overnight a dozen or two
    in a solution of oxygen bleach dissolved in hot water then rinse
    well, mark them, and then do the same sanitizing routine and see if
    any of the different bottles burst. Oxygen bleach is very good at
    dissolving caked on residues, so maybe, just maybe that's the issue.
    It can't really hurt.

    We are almost doing that already by letting hot water sit in each
    bottle after we poured. Sometimes overnight. Before putting them away
    after drying I visually check every bottle against a bright light, to
    make sure there isn't the slightest of haze anywhere in it.

    You may want to just try some unscented oxygen bleach. It's cheap, it's
    much less nasty stuff than regular chlorine bleach, and when you're done
    you can just dump the solution into the washing machine for your
    clothes. It can't hurt.


    Yes, though the dishwasher powder is already very good. After a few
    months my stainless steel office cup develops a brown coffee haze
    inside. Won't come off at all with liquid dish soap. Some granules of dishwasher powder in hot water, and 10 minutes later it's all shiny and
    looks like new.

    [...]


    worth marking them somehow and seeing if that subset performs
    differently from the main batch of bottles you're using.

    I really don't think there'd be any difference. When holding against a
    bright halogen light there are no visible scratches, no haze, nothing
    that even remotely points to residue accumulation.

    Maybe it's the Starsan? It's pretty shelf stable, but maybe something
    weird happened to it? Maybe the measuring spoon you're using is somehow
    wrong and you're using too little? Unusual water chemistry in tap water supposedly limits its effectiveness.


    I use the little measuring cavity on to of the bottle, 3/4oz Starsan to
    2-1/2 gallons of slightly warm water. It's a bit higher concentration
    than recommended but better safe than sorry when it comes to sanitation.


    Otherwise, I'm pretty much mystified. There isn't some environmental
    factor, like you bottle in a commercial bakery, is there....


    No, since we make the bread from the trub a day or two after harvesting
    it. I have to bottle first, then harvest, because the fermentation
    chamber only has space for two primaries and three secondaries. And
    there is always a long-resting Belgian in back, so in reality two
    secondaries for normal beers. The usual drill is bottle two beers, clean
    and sanitize the now vacated secondaries, rack off into those from
    primary. The next day I brew two more beers, then we make bread and bake
    that over wood fire or fruit tree coals.

    I also never made any sours and don't plan to do that. I heard that
    those can mess up a brewhouse pretty much for good.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Seko@serkanbumin@gmail.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Mon Feb 11 04:42:41 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    Hi,
    In your case I am thinking about two scenarios likely to happen:
    - Some bottles have more sugar than others; originating from bottling sugar which has not dissolved homogeneously in liquid. And in colder liquid, especially after cold break, lagering etc. it is even harder.
    A few gentle stir may not distribute liquid sugar in beer evenly. And most likely some tiny crystals has also grown during cooling of hot sugary water. They tend to sit down on bottom.
    This may be one reason. You may judge this from changing carbonation from bottle to bottle.
    - And second theory;
    1050-1014 sounds it is attenuated on the lower limit side for US05. I would expect a 1005-6-7 FG for a 1050 saison. (Of course depending on mash temperature and crystal malt %'s)
    BJCP (style guidelines) also says for standard saisons:
    OG: 1.048 – 1.065
    FG: 1.002 – 1.008
    So even for a big beer like 1065, they may expect a 1008.
    Your fermantation somehow stuck at 1014, then started attenuating again in bottles. Why it did not attenuate during secondary is unclear. May be because you lowered the temperature a few degrees more instead of increasing. No sugar, no higher temperature, no oxygen introduced so there is no ignition, no spark to awake yeasts during secondary.
    If this is the case, we may bear in mind below information:
    According to
    (1) http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Accurately_Calculating_Sugar_Additions_for_Carbonation
    .
    .
    Each degree Plato yields 4.1 g/l or 2 volumes CO2
    Each gravity point yields 1 g/l or 0.51 volumes CO2
    .
    .
    So if beer attenuated from 1014 to 1010 in bottle, it means 2 volume of CO2.
    if beer attenuated from 1014 to 1008, it means 3 volume of CO2,
    if beer attenuated from 1014 to 1006, it means 4 volume of CO2.
    Knowing that for many of the beers exist in brewing world, the adviced co2 volumes are between 2 - 4 volumes; so you might already carbonated your bottles without adding sugar.
    (volume advices: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/attachments/beer-styles-volumes-of-co2-png.45720/)
    And I would use gloves and eye protection while opening the rest of the bottles.
    Some type of bottles cracks from bottom; I naively tend to believe this partial weakness is done by purpose by manufacturers to prevent flying, scattering glass pieces around.
    Some bottle types really bombs like a cluster bomb. Not need to mention the dangers of these type.
    Hope I am clear enough, English is not my mother tongue.
    Kind regards,
    Seko
    6 Şubat 2019 Çarşamba 02:31:19 UTC+3 tarihinde Joerg yazdı:
    Being extra-diligent about cleaning every single bottle with boiling
    water and dish washer powder, making sure the beer is completely
    fermented out and having reduced corn sugar to 2-1/2oz per 5-gallon
    batch it happened again on Sunday ... *KAPOOF* ... a sturdy Grolsch blew
    off its bottom.

    This is a Saison brewed on Dec-18, US-05 yeast, finished primary on
    Dec-31 at 1.014 and with almost no air lock activity left. Sat in
    secondary for another two weeks with barely any air lock activity. The fermentation chamber is very well controlled at 68F for the primaries
    and 63F for the secondaries (unless I need other temps). Bottled on
    Jan-14. It's not very warm in the house. Most of the time the beer sits downstairs at 60F-65F, then gets hauled into a kitchen cabinet where it
    is about 68F and this is where a bottle exploded. We drank another one
    later and it showed tons of carbonation, foaming up the whole glass at
    first pour. The taste is good and same as always, no off-flavors or anything.

    My primary vessels are stainless and the secondaries are blue water
    cooler bottles, all meticulously cleaned and sanitized. The beer bottles
    get sanitized by a 1min and often a lot longer soak in Starsan solution
    and I mean completely drowned with no air left inside.

    What on earth can cause this? 2-1/2oz of sugar is already half the
    quantity recommended by carbonation calculators. Should I go to 2oz or
    maybe even 1-1/2oz?

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Joerg@news@analogconsultants.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Wed Feb 13 10:42:27 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    On 2019-02-11 04:42, Seko wrote:
    Hi,

    In your case I am thinking about two scenarios likely to happen:

    - Some bottles have more sugar than others; originating from bottling
    sugar which has not dissolved homogeneously in liquid. And in colder
    liquid, especially after cold break, lagering etc. it is even
    harder.

    A few gentle stir may not distribute liquid sugar in beer evenly. And
    most likely some tiny crystals has also grown during cooling of hot
    sugary water. They tend to sit down on bottom.

    This may be one reason. You may judge this from changing carbonation
    from bottle to bottle.


    That could be. Though I dissolve the sugar in water which gets boiled
    for at least 5mins on the kitchen stove to make sure it's all sanitized.
    Once cooled off I pour that into the sanitized bottling bucket, then the
    beer is racked on top of that with the siphoning hose all the way onto
    the bottom, for a good swirl without splashing. Afterwards 10-12
    "heaves" with a long sanitized plastic spoon.


    - And second theory;

    1050-1014 sounds it is attenuated on the lower limit side for US05. I
    would expect a 1005-6-7 FG for a 1050 saison. (Of course depending on
    mash temperature and crystal malt %'s)

    BJCP (style guidelines) also says for standard saisons:

    OG: 1.048 – 1.065 FG: 1.002 – 1.008

    So even for a big beer like 1065, they may expect a 1008.


    Usually I end around 1.009. This one was a bit higher but then had
    another two weeks of rest in secondary. I never measure after seconday.
    Maybe I should but then it's in the bottling bucket and I am committed
    to bottle. Measuring gravity in secondary is tough because I use
    5-gallon water cooler bottles for that which have a narrow neck. Maybe I should affix a rope at the hydrometer or fish it out later.

    By the way, sorry guys, this Saison has S-33 yeast and not US-05. I
    misread a line in my database file, the one that guides all my brewing.


    Your fermantation somehow stuck at 1014, then started attenuating
    again in bottles. Why it did not attenuate during secondary is
    unclear. May be because you lowered the temperature a few degrees
    more instead of increasing. No sugar, no higher temperature, no
    oxygen introduced so there is no ignition, no spark to awake yeasts
    during secondary.


    The temperature won't drop much below 60F in secondary though, mostly 65F.


    If this is the case, we may bear in mind below information:

    According to (1) http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Accurately_Calculating_Sugar_Additions_for_Carbonation

    . . Each degree Plato yields 4.1 g/l or 2 volumes CO2 Each gravity
    point yields 1 g/l or 0.51 volumes CO2 . .

    So if beer attenuated from 1014 to 1010 in bottle, it means 2 volume
    of CO2. if beer attenuated from 1014 to 1008, it means 3 volume of
    CO2, if beer attenuated from 1014 to 1006, it means 4 volume of CO2.


    Indeed. If it remained stuck also in secondary that could explain it.


    Knowing that for many of the beers exist in brewing world, the
    adviced co2 volumes are between 2 - 4 volumes; so you might already carbonated your bottles without adding sugar. (volume advices: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/attachments/beer-styles-volumes-of-co2-png.45720/)




    And I would use gloves and eye protection while opening the rest of
    the bottles. Some type of bottles cracks from bottom; I naively tend
    to believe this partial weakness is done by purpose by manufacturers
    to prevent flying, scattering glass pieces around. Some bottle types
    really bombs like a cluster bomb. Not need to mention the dangers of
    these type.


    I've had some where the neck flew off and landed clear at the other side
    of the room. Others shattered completely.

    The question is now, should I open and immediately re-close all of them
    to "let of some steam"? Or could that cause the beer in there to go permanently flat? Right now they have become gushers. About half a
    second after opening foam shoots out, with gusto.


    Hope I am clear enough, English is not my mother tongue.


    Very clear, thanks. Same here, I grew up speaking German, then Dutch.
    But learning English with Turkish as the mother tongue must be much
    harder. What I really admire is Asians learning English because their
    language structure is completely different.


    Kind regards, Seko


    6 Şubat 2019 Çarşamba 02:31:19 UTC+3 tarihinde Joerg yazdı:
    Being extra-diligent about cleaning every single bottle with
    boiling water and dish washer powder, making sure the beer is
    completely fermented out and having reduced corn sugar to 2-1/2oz
    per 5-gallon batch it happened again on Sunday ... *KAPOOF* ... a
    sturdy Grolsch blew off its bottom.

    This is a Saison brewed on Dec-18, US-05 yeast, finished primary
    on Dec-31 at 1.014 and with almost no air lock activity left. Sat
    in secondary for another two weeks with barely any air lock
    activity. The fermentation chamber is very well controlled at 68F
    for the primaries and 63F for the secondaries (unless I need other
    temps). Bottled on Jan-14. It's not very warm in the house. Most of
    the time the beer sits downstairs at 60F-65F, then gets hauled into
    a kitchen cabinet where it is about 68F and this is where a bottle
    exploded. We drank another one later and it showed tons of
    carbonation, foaming up the whole glass at first pour. The taste is
    good and same as always, no off-flavors or anything.

    My primary vessels are stainless and the secondaries are blue
    water cooler bottles, all meticulously cleaned and sanitized. The
    beer bottles get sanitized by a 1min and often a lot longer soak in
    Starsan solution and I mean completely drowned with no air left
    inside.

    What on earth can cause this? 2-1/2oz of sugar is already half the
    quantity recommended by carbonation calculators. Should I go to 2oz
    or maybe even 1-1/2oz?

    -- Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/



    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Baloonon@baloonon@hootmali.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Fri Feb 15 03:49:31 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

    On 2019-02-11 04:42, Seko wrote:

    In your case I am thinking about two scenarios likely to happen:

    - Some bottles have more sugar than others; originating from bottling
    sugar which has not dissolved homogeneously in liquid. And in colder
    liquid, especially after cold break, lagering etc. it is even
    harder.

    A few gentle stir may not distribute liquid sugar in beer evenly. And
    most likely some tiny crystals has also grown during cooling of hot
    sugary water. They tend to sit down on bottom.

    This may be one reason. You may judge this from changing carbonation
    from bottle to bottle.

    That could be. Though I dissolve the sugar in water which gets boiled
    for at least 5mins on the kitchen stove to make sure it's all
    sanitized. Once cooled off I pour that into the sanitized bottling
    bucket, then the beer is racked on top of that with the siphoning hose
    all the way onto the bottom, for a good swirl without splashing.
    Afterwards 10-12 "heaves" with a long sanitized plastic spoon.

    I'm curious if the crystalization is a possibility, since sugar can come
    out of solution much easier than some other things, like table salt.

    I'm not sure how you'd test for that without carefully examining the
    bottom of the bottling bucket for crystals. An easier starting point
    might be to mark the caps of bottles that are filled, maybe indicating
    whether they're with the first ten bottled, second ten, and so on, and
    then seeing if there is any pattern to any that gusher or burst. You
    could even number each bottle. That might help narrow down whether a
    specific part of the bottling process is an issue. Can't hurt.

    - And second theory;

    1050-1014 sounds it is attenuated on the lower limit side for US05. I
    would expect a 1005-6-7 FG for a 1050 saison. (Of course depending on
    mash temperature and crystal malt %'s)

    BJCP (style guidelines) also says for standard saisons:

    OG: 1.048 – 1.065 FG: 1.002 – 1.008

    So even for a big beer like 1065, they may expect a 1008.

    Usually I end around 1.009. This one was a bit higher but then had
    another two weeks of rest in secondary.

    I think you had said you only used 2.5 oz of priming sugar, so even if
    it had finished at 014, that probably shouldn't be enough sugar to break
    a bottle.

    I never measure after
    seconday. Maybe I should but then it's in the bottling bucket and I am committed to bottle. Measuring gravity in secondary is tough because I
    use 5-gallon water cooler bottles for that which have a narrow neck.
    Maybe I should affix a rope at the hydrometer or fish it out later.

    You can use one of these:

    https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/fermtech-wine-thief

    You could also just use a sanitized length of tubing -- put one end in
    the carboy, cap with your thumb, then drop into a hydrometer tube. You
    might need to repeat once or twice depending on the diameter and length
    of the tubing.

    And I would use gloves and eye protection while opening the rest of
    the bottles. Some type of bottles cracks from bottom; I naively tend
    to believe this partial weakness is done by purpose by manufacturers
    to prevent flying, scattering glass pieces around. Some bottle types
    really bombs like a cluster bomb. Not need to mention the dangers of
    these type.

    I've had some where the neck flew off and landed clear at the other
    side of the room. Others shattered completely.

    Unrelated, I just snapped the top of a neck off a bottle when I was
    capping it somehow. Fortunately it was a clean break and above the fill
    line, so there was no glass or beer escaping. I've never had that happen before.

    The question is now, should I open and immediately re-close all of
    them to "let of some steam"? Or could that cause the beer in there to
    go permanently flat? Right now they have become gushers. About half a
    second after opening foam shoots out, with gusto.

    I would see if you can get by with just chilling them and keeping them
    cold. If you have too many for your fridge, use a cooler with some
    bottles of ice. That ought to be enough to stop any further
    fermentation.

    I wouldn't open any to try to relieve pressure -- if there are gushers, there's no easy way to control that. Just have a pitcher ready when you
    open bottles for drinking to handle extra foam.
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Joerg@news@analogconsultants.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Fri Feb 15 08:01:19 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    On 2019-02-14 19:49, Baloonon wrote:
    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

    On 2019-02-11 04:42, Seko wrote:

    In your case I am thinking about two scenarios likely to happen:

    - Some bottles have more sugar than others; originating from bottling
    sugar which has not dissolved homogeneously in liquid. And in colder
    liquid, especially after cold break, lagering etc. it is even
    harder.

    A few gentle stir may not distribute liquid sugar in beer evenly. And
    most likely some tiny crystals has also grown during cooling of hot
    sugary water. They tend to sit down on bottom.

    This may be one reason. You may judge this from changing carbonation
    from bottle to bottle.

    That could be. Though I dissolve the sugar in water which gets boiled
    for at least 5mins on the kitchen stove to make sure it's all
    sanitized. Once cooled off I pour that into the sanitized bottling
    bucket, then the beer is racked on top of that with the siphoning hose
    all the way onto the bottom, for a good swirl without splashing.
    Afterwards 10-12 "heaves" with a long sanitized plastic spoon.

    I'm curious if the crystalization is a possibility, since sugar can come
    out of solution much easier than some other things, like table salt.


    I've looked for weird residue after drinking but other than the usual
    slight S-33 haze I can't see anything out of the ordinary.


    I'm not sure how you'd test for that without carefully examining the
    bottom of the bottling bucket for crystals. An easier starting point
    might be to mark the caps of bottles that are filled, maybe indicating whether they're with the first ten bottled, second ten, and so on, and
    then seeing if there is any pattern to any that gusher or burst. You
    could even number each bottle. That might help narrow down whether a
    specific part of the bottling process is an issue. Can't hurt.


    Unfortunately I only numbered them with the batch #. However, since our Sterilite crates hold only 60-70% of a batch the bottles filled last go
    into a 2nd Sterilite crate along with beer from another batch. So far
    there is no difference between them.

    This evening I am going to open and immediately re-close all bottles of
    this batch so that at least some of the pressure is gone. Most are
    Grolsch bottles so this is easy to do. The gushing and foaming isn't a problem. I just pour near the kitchen sink and we'll wait for the foam
    to settle between incremental pourings.


    - And second theory;

    1050-1014 sounds it is attenuated on the lower limit side for US05. I
    would expect a 1005-6-7 FG for a 1050 saison. (Of course depending on
    mash temperature and crystal malt %'s)

    BJCP (style guidelines) also says for standard saisons:

    OG: 1.048 – 1.065 FG: 1.002 – 1.008

    So even for a big beer like 1065, they may expect a 1008.

    Usually I end around 1.009. This one was a bit higher but then had
    another two weeks of rest in secondary.

    I think you had said you only used 2.5 oz of priming sugar, so even if
    it had finished at 014, that probably shouldn't be enough sugar to break
    a bottle.


    That's what I think as well. Also, the 1.014 was after primary and it
    sat in secondary for another 2 weeks which should have brought things
    down more.


    I never measure after
    seconday. Maybe I should but then it's in the bottling bucket and I am
    committed to bottle. Measuring gravity in secondary is tough because I
    use 5-gallon water cooler bottles for that which have a narrow neck.
    Maybe I should affix a rope at the hydrometer or fish it out later.

    You can use one of these:

    https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/fermtech-wine-thief

    You could also just use a sanitized length of tubing -- put one end in
    the carboy, cap with your thumb, then drop into a hydrometer tube. You
    might need to repeat once or twice depending on the diameter and length
    of the tubing.


    Good idea. I actually inherited a tall glass beker with a huge
    hydrometer from a friend who stopped wine making. So next time I notice
    a "high finisher" after primary I am going to sanitize that and measure
    after secondary.


    And I would use gloves and eye protection while opening the rest of
    the bottles. Some type of bottles cracks from bottom; I naively tend
    to believe this partial weakness is done by purpose by manufacturers
    to prevent flying, scattering glass pieces around. Some bottle types
    really bombs like a cluster bomb. Not need to mention the dangers of
    these type.

    I've had some where the neck flew off and landed clear at the other
    side of the room. Others shattered completely.

    Unrelated, I just snapped the top of a neck off a bottle when I was
    capping it somehow. Fortunately it was a clean break and above the fill
    line, so there was no glass or beer escaping. I've never had that happen before.


    I had that happen regularly when I was still using a wing capper. Mainly
    on Sierra Neveda and Kona bottles so we got rid of most of those. With
    the Agata capper it was a rare occasion. I just wish those things
    wouldn't flex so much.


    The question is now, should I open and immediately re-close all of
    them to "let of some steam"? Or could that cause the beer in there to
    go permanently flat? Right now they have become gushers. About half a
    second after opening foam shoots out, with gusto.

    I would see if you can get by with just chilling them and keeping them
    cold. If you have too many for your fridge, use a cooler with some
    bottles of ice. That ought to be enough to stop any further
    fermentation.


    Not so easy right now because we sometimes need the extra fridge
    downstairs for food preparation.


    I wouldn't open any to try to relieve pressure -- if there are gushers, there's no easy way to control that. Just have a pitcher ready when you
    open bottles for drinking to handle extra foam.


    Yeah but I want to reduce the risk of another KAPOOF. Re-closing a
    gusher isn't a problem because these are almost all Grolsch bottle. Just
    needs to be rinsed and dried on the outside afterwards. Except for the
    four 12 ouncers I filled which we'll just drink first.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Baloonon@baloonon@hootmali.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Mon Feb 18 21:59:18 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote :

    On 2019-02-14 19:49, Baloonon wrote:

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

    Good idea. I actually inherited a tall glass beker with a huge
    hydrometer from a friend who stopped wine making. So next time I
    notice a "high finisher" after primary I am going to sanitize that
    and measure after secondary.

    I think you may want to make sure your primary is really and truly done,
    and if the gravity there seems high, consider gently rousing the yeast
    and raising the temp a bit and see if you can restart in primary while
    you have a lot of yeast.

    Transferring to secondary with a stalled fermentation may make it harder
    to get the yeast back in action, since you'll have left most of it
    behind in the primary.

    The question is now, should I open and immediately re-close all of
    them to "let of some steam"? Or could that cause the beer in there
    to go permanently flat? Right now they have become gushers. About
    half a second after opening foam shoots out, with gusto.

    I would see if you can get by with just chilling them and keeping
    them cold. If you have too many for your fridge, use a cooler with
    some bottles of ice. That ought to be enough to stop any further
    fermentation.

    Not so easy right now because we sometimes need the extra fridge
    downstairs for food preparation.

    You could stash a couple of coolers outside with ice. They ought to be
    fine this time of year. Cold bottles may also be less likely to break or
    gush.

    I wouldn't open any to try to relieve pressure -- if there are
    gushers, there's no easy way to control that. Just have a pitcher
    ready when you open bottles for drinking to handle extra foam.

    Yeah but I want to reduce the risk of another KAPOOF. Re-closing a
    gusher isn't a problem because these are almost all Grolsch bottle.
    Just needs to be rinsed and dried on the outside afterwards. Except
    for the four 12 ouncers I filled which we'll just drink first.

    I think this may be riskier than chilling. If the yeast is still active, you're not dealing with the root problem, and the fermentation may get
    another jolt from rousing yeast and additional O2 getting into the
    bottle. Frankly at this point I'd think you'd be safer chilling bottles
    and keeping them in isolation for a bit to see if any more burst. If
    they don't then I think you're probably OK as long as they stay cold. Definitely follow Seko's advice on gloves and eye protection while
    handling, and a coat might not be a bad idea.

    Come to think of it, what you had said earlier about boiling water may
    be a problem. I don't think beer bottles are tempered glass, and they
    may be expanding and contracting enough to stress the glass.

    Also, googling a bit seems to show S-33 as having some issues regarding attenuation. You may want to use a different yeast that is less likely
    to stall.
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Joerg@news@analogconsultants.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Tue Feb 19 08:09:07 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    On 2019-02-18 13:59, Baloonon wrote:
    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote :

    On 2019-02-14 19:49, Baloonon wrote:

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

    Good idea. I actually inherited a tall glass beker with a huge
    hydrometer from a friend who stopped wine making. So next time I
    notice a "high finisher" after primary I am going to sanitize that
    and measure after secondary.

    I think you may want to make sure your primary is really and truly done,
    and if the gravity there seems high, consider gently rousing the yeast
    and raising the temp a bit and see if you can restart in primary while
    you have a lot of yeast.


    It's just puzzling why a fresh pack of S-33 dry yeast stalled despite
    being in a temperature-controlled environment.


    Transferring to secondary with a stalled fermentation may make it harder
    to get the yeast back in action, since you'll have left most of it
    behind in the primary.


    Shouldn't there be enough yeast left? After all, it carbonated fine in
    the bottles. Or rather, very excessively in this case. There also was
    the usual thin white slugde at the bottom of the secondary fermenter.


    The question is now, should I open and immediately re-close all of
    them to "let of some steam"? Or could that cause the beer in there
    to go permanently flat? Right now they have become gushers. About
    half a second after opening foam shoots out, with gusto.

    I would see if you can get by with just chilling them and keeping
    them cold. If you have too many for your fridge, use a cooler with
    some bottles of ice. That ought to be enough to stop any further
    fermentation.

    Not so easy right now because we sometimes need the extra fridge
    downstairs for food preparation.

    You could stash a couple of coolers outside with ice. They ought to be
    fine this time of year. Cold bottles may also be less likely to break or gush.


    This time of the year they might actually freeze up in there. What I did
    now was to open each bottle and immediately close it. Since it's nearly
    all in Grolsch bottles that was easy. I may have to do it again. They
    still gush a bit but the pop when opening isn't as loud as before.


    I wouldn't open any to try to relieve pressure -- if there are
    gushers, there's no easy way to control that. Just have a pitcher
    ready when you open bottles for drinking to handle extra foam.

    Yeah but I want to reduce the risk of another KAPOOF. Re-closing a
    gusher isn't a problem because these are almost all Grolsch bottle.
    Just needs to be rinsed and dried on the outside afterwards. Except
    for the four 12 ouncers I filled which we'll just drink first.

    I think this may be riskier than chilling. If the yeast is still active, you're not dealing with the root problem, and the fermentation may get another jolt from rousing yeast and additional O2 getting into the
    bottle. ...


    Well, it did help some and I was careful not to shake the bottle and
    opening the flip-top lids slowly, without a pop. Just phsssssst, then re-close.


    Frankly at this point I'd think you'd be safer chilling bottles
    and keeping them in isolation for a bit to see if any more burst. If
    they don't then I think you're probably OK as long as they stay cold. Definitely follow Seko's advice on gloves and eye protection while
    handling, and a coat might not be a bad idea.


    Yes, wearing eye protection.


    Come to think of it, what you had said earlier about boiling water may
    be a problem. I don't think beer bottles are tempered glass, and they
    may be expanding and contracting enough to stress the glass.


    These are European bottles (Netherlands) where they have a deposit and
    return system for bottles and crates. Something we should also have in
    the US. So the glass is thicker and more sturdy. Over there the bottles
    go through machines like this:

    https://www.krones.com/de/produkte/maschinen/flaschenreinigungsmaschinen.php?page=1&searchtext=&filter%5B4%5D%5B4_4%5D=4_4&filter%5B1%5D%5B%5D=all&filter%5B2%5D%5B%5D=all&searchtext=&searchtextold=

    The throughput can be tens of thousands of bottles per hour and AFAIR
    they shoot cleaning fluid at 80C or about 175F into the bottles, fast.
    It has to be hot and aggressive because in contrast to us hobby brewers
    the commercial breweries over there never know where a bottle has been
    or for how long it sat somewhere in a contaminated condition. People
    generally never rinse bottles at home.


    Also, googling a bit seems to show S-33 as having some issues regarding attenuation. You may want to use a different yeast that is less likely
    to stall.


    Good point. Though S-33 does give this Saison the characteristic "yeasty taste" that some people like. Maybe I should rock the fermenter at times during the two weeks of primary for this beer.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Baloonon@baloonon@hootmali.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Tue Feb 19 17:37:00 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

    On 2019-02-18 13:59, Baloonon wrote:

    Come to think of it, what you had said earlier about boiling water
    may be a problem. I don't think beer bottles are tempered glass, and
    they may be expanding and contracting enough to stress the glass.

    These are European bottles (Netherlands) where they have a deposit and
    return system for bottles and crates. Something we should also have in
    the US. So the glass is thicker and more sturdy. Over there the
    bottles go through machines like this:

    https://www.krones.com/de/produkte/maschinen/flaschenreinigungsmaschin
    en.php?page=1&searchtext=&filter%5B4%5D%5B4_4%5D=4_4&filter%5B1%5D%5B% 5D=all&filter%5B2%5D%5B%5D=all&searchtext=&searchtextold=

    The throughput can be tens of thousands of bottles per hour and AFAIR
    they shoot cleaning fluid at 80C or about 175F into the bottles, fast.
    It has to be hot and aggressive because in contrast to us hobby
    brewers the commercial breweries over there never know where a bottle
    has been or for how long it sat somewhere in a contaminated condition.
    People generally never rinse bottles at home.

    If I remember right, there's also an issue with how quickly the glass
    heats up and cools down in addition to the temp -- obviously, glass in
    its molten state is vastly hotter than 100C, so heat alone isn't the
    problem. So I don't know if there's a way to ensure there is no sudden
    change in temp in the cleaning process.

    Also, googling a bit seems to show S-33 as having some issues
    regarding attenuation. You may want to use a different yeast that is
    less likely to stall.

    Good point. Though S-33 does give this Saison the characteristic
    "yeasty taste" that some people like. Maybe I should rock the
    fermenter at times during the two weeks of primary for this beer.

    I know with some English yeast there is a lot of effort put into finding
    the right combination of pitching temp, temps for fermenting, temps for finishing fermentatation, etc. Also, times and methods for rousing
    yeast. 1968 is a known fickle yeast, for example. I'm not sure if there
    is data for best handling practices for S-33, and it's probably in part
    a function of OG.

    Gradually raising temps to the higher end of recommended temps as
    fermentation is nearing the end, but not completely done, usually
    doesn't cause a change in flavor or aroma, so that might be something to
    try. Gently rousing yeast at the same time can't hurt either.
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Linux NewsLink 1.110
  • From Joerg@news@analogconsultants.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Wed Feb 20 16:38:58 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    On 2019-02-19 09:37, Baloonon wrote:
    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

    On 2019-02-18 13:59, Baloonon wrote:

    Come to think of it, what you had said earlier about boiling water
    may be a problem. I don't think beer bottles are tempered glass, and
    they may be expanding and contracting enough to stress the glass.

    These are European bottles (Netherlands) where they have a deposit and
    return system for bottles and crates. Something we should also have in
    the US. So the glass is thicker and more sturdy. Over there the
    bottles go through machines like this:

    https://www.krones.com/de/produkte/maschinen/flaschenreinigungsmaschin
    en.php?page=1&searchtext=&filter%5B4%5D%5B4_4%5D=4_4&filter%5B1%5D%5B% 5D=all&filter%5B2%5D%5B%5D=all&searchtext=&searchtextold=

    The throughput can be tens of thousands of bottles per hour and AFAIR
    they shoot cleaning fluid at 80C or about 175F into the bottles, fast.
    It has to be hot and aggressive because in contrast to us hobby
    brewers the commercial breweries over there never know where a bottle
    has been or for how long it sat somewhere in a contaminated condition.
    People generally never rinse bottles at home.

    If I remember right, there's also an issue with how quickly the glass
    heats up and cools down in addition to the temp -- obviously, glass in
    its molten state is vastly hotter than 100C, so heat alone isn't the
    problem. So I don't know if there's a way to ensure there is no sudden
    change in temp in the cleaning process.


    As far as I know those machines literally blast the bottles. Probably
    way hotter than what I could ever do as steam is involved. They have to
    get every potential bacteria killed. Something we hobby brewers rarely
    have to do because we know where our bottles have been and we can let
    them soak them for minutes.


    Also, googling a bit seems to show S-33 as having some issues
    regarding attenuation. You may want to use a different yeast that is
    less likely to stall.

    Good point. Though S-33 does give this Saison the characteristic
    "yeasty taste" that some people like. Maybe I should rock the
    fermenter at times during the two weeks of primary for this beer.

    I know with some English yeast there is a lot of effort put into finding
    the right combination of pitching temp, temps for fermenting, temps for finishing fermentatation, etc. Also, times and methods for rousing
    yeast. 1968 is a known fickle yeast, for example. I'm not sure if there
    is data for best handling practices for S-33, and it's probably in part
    a function of OG.

    Gradually raising temps to the higher end of recommended temps as fermentation is nearing the end, but not completely done, usually
    doesn't cause a change in flavor or aroma, so that might be something to
    try. Gently rousing yeast at the same time can't hurt either.


    That is what I am doing right now for a Barley Wine. At around 1.090 OG
    it is a big beer and I am hoping the Cream Ale in the same climate
    chamber won't mind. I pitched two packets or a double dose of US-05 dry
    yeast simultaneously and then the Barley Wine needed the usual 3/4"
    blow-off tube the first 3-4 days, plus cooling. Later I turned the
    cooling off and now I am heating it up to remain above 70F which should
    be fine for US-05. Main reason is I had to brew late in the week but
    have to rack off at the usual time next week. So it will only have 11
    days in primary versus teh usual 14 days. Here is hoping it gets below
    1.014 by then.

    I initially thought about whether I really needed to build heating capabilities into the chamber (a converted wine fridge) but in hindsight
    I am glad I did. It's on a micro controller so it won't go out of bounds.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  • From Baloonon@baloonon@hootmali.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Wed May 1 03:11:45 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote

    Baloonon wrote:

    Gradually raising temps to the higher end of recommended temps as
    fermentation is nearing the end, but not completely done, usually
    doesn't cause a change in flavor or aroma, so that might be
    something to try. Gently rousing yeast at the same time can't hurt
    either.

    That is what I am doing right now for a Barley Wine. At around
    1.090 OG it is a big beer and I am hoping the Cream Ale in the same
    climate chamber won't mind. I pitched two packets or a double dose
    of US-05 dry yeast simultaneously and then the Barley Wine needed
    the usual 3/4" blow-off tube the first 3-4 days, plus cooling.
    Later I turned the cooling off and now I am heating it up to
    remain above 70F which should be fine for US-05. Main reason is
    I had to brew late in the week but have to rack off at the usual
    time next week. So it will only have 11 days in primary versus
    teh usual 14 days. Here is hoping it gets below 1.014 by then.

    I initially thought about whether I really needed to build heating capabilities into the chamber (a converted wine fridge) but in
    hindsight I am glad I did. It's on a micro controller so it won't
    go out of bounds.

    I just read this article, and it got my interest. The last section "Hope Creep" describes how the combination of hops and yeast can lead to
    exploding cans/bottles:

    http://brulosophy.com/2019/02/21/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping- lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

    https://tinyurl.com/yyg7d3bu

    Dry hopping adds enzymes from the hops that can kickstart a final round of fermentation when yeast remains in solution and the beer is not fully attenuated.

    So essentially, dry hopping and then bottling shortly after may result in gushers or bombs.

    What I'm curious about is whether this only something that happens during
    dry hopping, or if there are other triggers that make yeast reactivate -- I suspect that is the case.

    At any rate, it hints that one answer to under-attenuation may be dry
    hopping. I often read of English beers like Strong Ales being dry hopped in http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com and I wonder if they weren't just trying
    to add to the aroma -- were they alos trying to get finicky yeast to finish up?

    One possible way to go might be to wait until a hydro reading shows the initial fermentation has stopped. Then dry hop for a few days. Pull the
    hops, and wait a week after a hydro reading shows any followup fermentation has finished before bottling. If there is a second round of fermentation,
    it ought to knock down the FG and presumably limit the odds of excess CO2 production in the bottles.

    Obviously dry hopping is better for some styles more than others. I'd think even something like a Dubbel would be OK with a low-moderate dry hopping of whatever hop was used on brew day. It could even be done as an experiment, with half a batch bottled prior to dry hopping and the second half dry
    hopped and then bottled.
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  • From Joerg@news@analogconsultants.com to rec.crafts.brewing on Thu May 2 12:44:47 2019
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.brewing

    On 2019-04-30 20:11, Baloonon wrote:
    Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote

    Baloonon wrote:

    Gradually raising temps to the higher end of recommended temps as
    fermentation is nearing the end, but not completely done, usually
    doesn't cause a change in flavor or aroma, so that might be
    something to try. Gently rousing yeast at the same time can't hurt
    either.

    That is what I am doing right now for a Barley Wine. At around
    1.090 OG it is a big beer and I am hoping the Cream Ale in the same
    climate chamber won't mind. I pitched two packets or a double dose
    of US-05 dry yeast simultaneously and then the Barley Wine needed
    the usual 3/4" blow-off tube the first 3-4 days, plus cooling.
    Later I turned the cooling off and now I am heating it up to
    remain above 70F which should be fine for US-05. Main reason is
    I had to brew late in the week but have to rack off at the usual
    time next week. So it will only have 11 days in primary versus
    teh usual 14 days. Here is hoping it gets below 1.014 by then.

    I initially thought about whether I really needed to build heating
    capabilities into the chamber (a converted wine fridge) but in
    hindsight I am glad I did. It's on a micro controller so it won't
    go out of bounds.

    I just read this article, and it got my interest. The last section "Hope Creep" describes how the combination of hops and yeast can lead to
    exploding cans/bottles:

    http://brulosophy.com/2019/02/21/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping- lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

    https://tinyurl.com/yyg7d3bu

    Dry hopping adds enzymes from the hops that can kickstart a final round of fermentation when yeast remains in solution and the beer is not fully attenuated.

    So essentially, dry hopping and then bottling shortly after may result in gushers or bombs.


    Hop creep, interesting. I have one of those cases again. A hoppy beer carbonated with 2-1/2oz of corn sugar per 5gal batch is gushing like
    crazy. Opening a Grolsch bottle of it sounds like popping champagne ... *POPPP* ... and occasionally the flip-top assembly flew off while
    opening. At the other end of the scale an almost bog-standard Pale Ale
    brewed around the same time with the same 2-1/2oz of corn sugar per 5gal
    batch only produces a faint hiss and barely develops a head.

    What I noticed early on when dry-hopping for the first time was that a
    lot of "secondary kraeusen" developed in the secondary fermenter very
    few hours after adding dry-hopping. The airlock came back to life and
    bubbled away for 2-3 days until it all settled out again.


    What I'm curious about is whether this only something that happens during
    dry hopping, or if there are other triggers that make yeast reactivate -- I suspect that is the case.

    At any rate, it hints that one answer to under-attenuation may be dry hopping. I often read of English beers like Strong Ales being dry hopped in http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com and I wonder if they weren't just trying to add to the aroma -- were they alos trying to get finicky yeast to finish up?


    I wonder how the inspector ever signed off on that electricity routing.
    Or whether there was any inspection ...


    One possible way to go might be to wait until a hydro reading shows the initial fermentation has stopped. Then dry hop for a few days. Pull the
    hops, and wait a week after a hydro reading shows any followup fermentation has finished before bottling. If there is a second round of fermentation,
    it ought to knock down the FG and presumably limit the odds of excess CO2 production in the bottles.


    It is hard to get a hydrometer in and out of my secondaries and, most of
    all, read it, because I use 5gal office water cooler bottles. So I may
    have to siphon a sample. However, when racking to to the bottling bucket
    I never saw anything amiss with gravity. Yet some beers develop a lot of pressure and some don't.


    Obviously dry hopping is better for some styles more than others. I'd think even something like a Dubbel would be OK with a low-moderate dry hopping of whatever hop was used on brew day. It could even be done as an experiment, with half a batch bottled prior to dry hopping and the second half dry
    hopped and then bottled.


    I dry-hop 10-15% of my beers. Never Belgians. Yet the Belgian Tripel is
    what caused a lot of grief in terms of grenading. The Quadrupel for some reason never did. I regularly brew those for myself. My wife won't drink
    them, too high in ABV. Of course, I never drive after one of those.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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