• Re: Claude AI understands this rebuttal of Ben --- Category Error

    From Chris M. Thomasson@chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com to comp.theory on Wed Oct 29 22:34:41 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/29/2025 6:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 10/29/25 4:25 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
    On 10/28/2025 6:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 10/28/25 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 10/28/2025 4:41 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's >>>>>>> trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P) >>>>>>> *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.  He knows and
    accepts that
    P(P) actually does stop.  The wrong answer is justified by what >>>>>>> would
    happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they
    actually are.
    HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.


    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    When simulating halt decider H is reporting on the
    behavior that its input specifies then H is correct
    to reject D as non-halting.


    Wrong, as the behavior the input specifies is that behavior when the
    program is run, and that behavior is based on calling this H, thatg
    DOES abort and return 0, and thus the behavior of the program is
    halting.

    DD can either halt or not halt depending on the result from HHH(DD).
    Since HHH(DD) returns an int and its a moron. Well, just fuzz the
    little shit. It can hit all paths in DD, halt or not halt.

    [...]

    But a GIVEN DD will do one or the other as the GIVEN HHH will do
    something specific for HHH(DD).

    Since the construction definition of DD, was to START with a specific
    HHH, you can't start to ask the question until you have chosen what
    exactly is HHH.

    THis is Olcott's probelm, he can't actually define his HHH, as his
    arguement doesn't work with it actually defined, it needs to stay on a slippery slope, which means he can't actually follow the proof.

    Humm... Actually, for some reason, the following basic of mine seems to
    be a "better" HHH for DD? lol. I just typed this out for fun, but its
    funny. I think its more "accurate" than Olcotts work? It allows for full
    path coverage. This is for DD in a re-instrumentation of sorts... Its
    always accurate! ;^)
    ___________________
    1 HOME
    5 PRINT "HHH"
    6 P0 = 0
    7 P1 = 0
    10 INPUT "Shall DD halt or not? " ; A$
    20 IF A$ = "YES" GOTO 666
    30 P1 = P1 + 1
    40 IF P0 > 0 AND P1 > 0 GOTO 1000
    50 GOTO 10

    666 PRINT "OK!"
    667 P0 = P0 + 1
    700 PRINT "NON_HALT P0 = "; P0
    710 PRINT "HALT P1 = "; P1
    720 IF P0 > 0 AND P1 > 0 GOTO 1000
    730 PRINT "ALL PATHS FAILED TO BE HIT!"
    740 GOTO 10


    1000
    1010 PRINT "FIN... All paths hit."
    1020 PRINT "NON_HALT P0 = "; P0
    1030 PRINT "HALT P1 = "; P1
    ___________________


    :^)
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  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 12:10:35 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:

    Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's
    trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P) >>>>> *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.  He knows and accepts that >>>>> P(P) actually does stop.  The wrong answer is justified by what would >>>>> happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they actually are. >>> HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.

    *This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words*

    The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be
    expected to report on properties determinable from its input. When the >>>> halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior"
    dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to report on >>>> something outside its input - hence, a category error.
    And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine that DD halts?
    *Every* single program is decidable.

    To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just simulate
    it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it is. The
    same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to find out
    may be linger.

    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    And what happens if it sees?

    Ignorance must be bliss for you.

    Irrelevant, as you didn't disagree with my comment.

    The hard problem is to find a proof that a computation does not halt.
    Even that is not hard for every non-halting computation but it is
    for some.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 08:08:12 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:

    Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's >>>>>> trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P) >>>>>> *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.  He knows and accepts >>>>>> that
    P(P) actually does stop.  The wrong answer is justified by what would >>>>>> happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they actually >>>>>> are.
    HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.

    *This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words*

    The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be
    expected to report on properties determinable from its input. When the >>>>> halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior"
    dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to
    report on
    something outside its input - hence, a category error.
    And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine that DD >>>> halts?
    *Every* single program is decidable.

    To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just
    simulate
    it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it is. The
    same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to find out
    may be linger.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    And what happens if it sees?


    D simulated by H according to the semantics
    of the C programming language until H correctly
    determines that its simulated D cannot possibly
    reach its own simulated "return" statement
    correctly rejects D on this basis not some other
    basis.

    Make sure that you see the word "until"
    Make sure that you see the word "until"
    Make sure that you see the word "until"
    Make sure that you see the word "until"
    Make sure that you see the word "until"

    Make sure that you see the word "until"
    Make sure that you see the word "until"
    Make sure that you see the word "until"
    Make sure that you see the word "until"
    Make sure that you see the word "until"

    Ignorance must be bliss for you.

    Irrelevant, as you didn't disagree with my comment.

    The hard problem is to find a proof that a computation does not halt.
    Even that is not hard for every non-halting computation but it is
    for some.

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory on Fri Oct 31 13:23:30 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-30 13:08:12 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:

    Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's >>>>>>> trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P) >>>>>>> *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.  He knows and accepts that
    P(P) actually does stop.  The wrong answer is justified by what would >>>>>>> happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they actually are. >>>>> HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.

    *This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words*

    The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be
    expected to report on properties determinable from its input. When the >>>>>> halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior"
    dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to report on >>>>>> something outside its input - hence, a category error.
    And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine that DD halts?
    *Every* single program is decidable.

    To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just simulate >>>> it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it is. The >>>> same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to find out >>>> may be linger.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    And what happens if it sees?

    D simulated by H according to the semantics
    of the C programming language until H correctly
    determines that its simulated D cannot possibly
    reach its own simulated "return" statement
    correctly rejects D on this basis not some other
    basis.

    This is possible except the word "correctly". But that is not the
    last thing that happens. Then H returns zero to its caller, which
    in this case is D, and D returns the zero to the program that
    called D. Because D halts the rejection by H is not correct, and
    therefore we can observe that H is not a halt decider.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Fri Oct 31 07:21:55 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/31/2025 6:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:08:12 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:

    Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's >>>>>>>> trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that >>>>>>>> P(P)
    *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.  He knows and
    accepts that
    P(P) actually does stop.  The wrong answer is justified by what >>>>>>>> would
    happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they
    actually are.
    HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.

    *This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words*

    The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be >>>>>>> expected to report on properties determinable from its input.
    When the
    halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior"
    dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to
    report on
    something outside its input - hence, a category error.
    And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine that >>>>>> DD halts?
    *Every* single program is decidable.

    To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just
    simulate
    it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it is. >>>>> The
    same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to find out >>>>> may be linger.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    And what happens if it sees?

    D simulated by H according to the semantics
    of the C programming language until H correctly
    determines that its simulated D cannot possibly
    reach its own simulated "return" statement
    correctly rejects D on this basis not some other
    basis.

    This is possible except the word "correctly". But that is not the
    last thing that happens. Then H returns zero to its caller, which
    in this case is D, and D returns the zero to the program that
    called D. Because D halts the rejection by H is not correct, and
    therefore we can observe that H is not a halt decider.


    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
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    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
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    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
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    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
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    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
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    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
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    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 11:51:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-31 12:21:55 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:08:12 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:

    Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's >>>>>>>>> trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P) >>>>>>>>> *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.  He knows and accepts that
    P(P) actually does stop.  The wrong answer is justified by what would
    happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they actually are.
    HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.

    *This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words*

    The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be >>>>>>>> expected to report on properties determinable from its input. When the >>>>>>>> halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior"
    dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to report on
    something outside its input - hence, a category error.
    And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine that DD halts?
    *Every* single program is decidable.

    To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just simulate
    it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it is. The >>>>>> same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to find out >>>>>> may be linger.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    And what happens if it sees?

    D simulated by H according to the semantics
    of the C programming language until H correctly
    determines that its simulated D cannot possibly
    reach its own simulated "return" statement
    correctly rejects D on this basis not some other
    basis.

    This is possible except the word "correctly". But that is not the
    last thing that happens. Then H returns zero to its caller, which
    in this case is D, and D returns the zero to the program that
    called D. Because D halts the rejection by H is not correct, and
    therefore we can observe that H is not a halt decider.


    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
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    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()

    There is only one D above.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 08:39:53 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/1/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-31 12:21:55 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:08:12 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:

    Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's >>>>>>>>>> trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines >>>>>>>>>> that P(P)
    *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.  He knows and >>>>>>>>>> accepts that
    P(P) actually does stop.  The wrong answer is justified by >>>>>>>>>> what would
    happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they >>>>>>>>>> actually are.
    HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.

    *This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words*

    The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be >>>>>>>>> expected to report on properties determinable from its input. >>>>>>>>> When the
    halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior"
    dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to >>>>>>>>> report on
    something outside its input - hence, a category error.
    And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine that >>>>>>>> DD halts?
    *Every* single program is decidable.

    To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just >>>>>>> simulate
    it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it >>>>>>> is. The
    same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to
    find out
    may be linger.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    And what happens if it sees?

    D simulated by H according to the semantics
    of the C programming language until H correctly
    determines that its simulated D cannot possibly
    reach its own simulated "return" statement
    correctly rejects D on this basis not some other
    basis.

    This is possible except the word "correctly". But that is not the
    last thing that happens. Then H returns zero to its caller, which
    in this case is D, and D returns the zero to the program that
    called D. Because D halts the rejection by H is not correct, and
    therefore we can observe that H is not a halt decider.


    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()

    There is only one D above.


    Thousands of times I refer to D simulated by H
    and despicably dishonest people use the despicably
    dishonest tactic of strawman to refer to the directly
    executed D as their rebuttal.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory on Sun Nov 2 14:50:48 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-01 13:39:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/1/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-31 12:21:55 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:08:12 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:

    Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's >>>>>>>>>>> trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P)
    *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.  He knows and accepts that
    P(P) actually does stop.  The wrong answer is justified by what would
    happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they actually are.
    HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.

    *This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words*

    The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be >>>>>>>>>> expected to report on properties determinable from its input. When the
    halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior"
    dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to report on
    something outside its input - hence, a category error.
    And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine that DD halts?
    *Every* single program is decidable.

    To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just simulate
    it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it is. The
    same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to find out >>>>>>>> may be linger.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    And what happens if it sees?

    D simulated by H according to the semantics
    of the C programming language until H correctly
    determines that its simulated D cannot possibly
    reach its own simulated "return" statement
    correctly rejects D on this basis not some other
    basis.

    This is possible except the word "correctly". But that is not the
    last thing that happens. Then H returns zero to its caller, which
    in this case is D, and D returns the zero to the program that
    called D. Because D halts the rejection by H is not correct, and
    therefore we can observe that H is not a halt decider.


    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
    D simulated by H Not D executed from main()

    There is only one D above.

    Thousands of times I refer to D simulated by H
    and despicably dishonest people use the despicably
    dishonest tactic of strawman to refer to the directly
    executed D as their rebuttal.

    It is the same D. There is no other D above.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2