• Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz ---

    From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Wed Oct 29 21:08:16 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/29/2025 8:42 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/29/2025 6:47 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    In the same sort of way that aborting Infinite_Loop()
    causes it to reach its own "return" statement.
    In other words not at all only a lie.

    Can you point of which lines of code are perpetrating a lie,

    It is only you yourself lying or being inexplicably
    confused over very simple matters.

    That's your unsubstantiated word against code with test results.

    and how they are doing it? From that, a fix may be identified.

    the
    slave_state and slave_stack objects still exist,
    So does the Infinite_Loop()

    When DDD is aborted by HHH, I can tell you exactly where it is.

    Likewise with Infinite_Loop().

    Correct; it is similar, except that of course Infinite_Loop doesn't
    create a grandchild simulation.

    So you are really trying to get away with
    saying that you don't understand that D

    So You are really trying to get away with that you don't understand the execution traces produced by some small addition to your own C project?

    People other than you consider my claims plausible.
    There is code and exdcution traces.

    You simply cannot dismiss that without looking into it.

    If you had credibility left to lose, that's the sort of argumentation
    you'd want to avoid.

    simulated by H cannot possibly reach its
    own simulated "return" statement even if
    God commands it?

    I understand that you put in countermeasures against that happening.

    Your Init_Halts_HH function returns 1 to the first caller, and then
    0 to subsequent callers. This is captured by H as the local variable
    Root.

    Only the H instance with Root == 1 is supposed to be performing
    the abort test.

    So if that worked right, it should cause the simulated H to behave
    like a pure simulation and so its D should be infinitely executing.

    Let's set aside the issue that that is hideous cheat that.

    For one reason or another: IT IS NOT WORKING.

    The nested H's are getting Root == 1 out of Init_Halts_H, and so doing
    the abort check, returning 0 to their respective DD's.

    Mkke Terry pointed this out first.


    When I simplify it down to this and you
    disagree and cannot see how you are not simply
    a damned liar.

    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kaz Kylheku@643-408-1753@kylheku.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 05:33:10 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/29/2025 8:42 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/29/2025 6:47 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    In the same sort of way that aborting Infinite_Loop()
    causes it to reach its own "return" statement.
    In other words not at all only a lie.

    Can you point of which lines of code are perpetrating a lie,

    It is only you yourself lying or being inexplicably
    confused over very simple matters.

    That's your unsubstantiated word against code with test results.

    and how they are doing it? From that, a fix may be identified.

    the
    slave_state and slave_stack objects still exist,
    So does the Infinite_Loop()

    When DDD is aborted by HHH, I can tell you exactly where it is.

    Likewise with Infinite_Loop().

    Correct; it is similar, except that of course Infinite_Loop doesn't
    create a grandchild simulation.

    So you are really trying to get away with
    saying that you don't understand that D

    So You are really trying to get away with that you don't understand the
    execution traces produced by some small addition to your own C project?

    People other than you consider my claims plausible.
    There is code and exdcution traces.

    You simply cannot dismiss that without looking into it.

    If you had credibility left to lose, that's the sort of argumentation
    you'd want to avoid.

    simulated by H cannot possibly reach its
    own simulated "return" statement even if
    God commands it?

    I understand that you put in countermeasures against that happening.

    Your Init_Halts_HH function returns 1 to the first caller, and then
    0 to subsequent callers. This is captured by H as the local variable
    Root.

    Only the H instance with Root == 1 is supposed to be performing
    the abort test.

    So if that worked right, it should cause the simulated H to behave
    like a pure simulation and so its D should be infinitely executing.

    Let's set aside the issue that that is hideous cheat that.

    For one reason or another: IT IS NOT WORKING.

    The nested H's are getting Root == 1 out of Init_Halts_H, and so doing
    the abort check, returning 0 to their respective DD's.

    Mkke Terry pointed this out first.


    When I simplify it down to this and you
    disagree and cannot see how you are not simply
    a damned liar.

    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    In Jun you committed a Halt7.obj which uses H(D). So we can run
    this.

    Log of Halt7.obj versions:

    $ git log --oneline Halt7.obj
    bef45a7 Add files via upload
    90a8f6f Add files via upload
    37bc98d Add files via upload
    8b3806d Add files via upload

    Show log message of the second oldest one, 37bc98d:

    $ git show -q 37bc98d
    commit 37bc98daa37995748798af31b88bbdbc45289a57
    Author: plolcott <59188130+plolcott@users.noreply.github.com>
    Date: Thu Jun 22 14:49:10 2023 -0500

    Add files via upload

    Retrieve it:

    $ git show 37bc98d:Halt7.obj > Halt7.37bc98d.obj

    Run:

    $ ./x86utm_exe Halt7.37bc98d.obj
    Convert_to_Sourcefile_Name[Halt7.c]
    Read: 12065 bytes from "Halt7.37bc98d.obj"
    Is an x86 based COFF Object File!
    Section_Number(4): .text$mn
    Section_Number(3): .data
    CODE_SECTION_INDEX(4) DATA_SECTION_INDEX (3)
    code_begin[00000772] code_end[00001cf8]

    [ .. snip ... ]

    _H()
    [00001542] 55 push ebp
    [00001543] 8bec mov ebp,esp
    [00001545] 83ec20 sub esp,+20
    [00001548] 6842150000 push 00001542
    [0000154d] e8a0f2ffff call 000007f2
    [00001552] 83c404 add esp,+04
    [00001555] 8945ec mov [ebp-14],eax
    [00001558] c745fc42150000 mov [ebp-04],00001542
    [0000155f] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
    [00001562] 50 push eax
    [00001563] e88af2ffff call 000007f2
    [00001568] 83c404 add esp,+04
    [0000156b] 8945e4 mov [ebp-1c],eax
    [0000156e] 6a18 push +18
    [00001570] e81df2ffff call 00000792
    [00001575] 83c404 add esp,+04
    [00001578] 8945e0 mov [ebp-20],eax
    [0000157b] 6a34 push +34
    [0000157d] e810f2ffff call 00000792
    [00001582] 83c404 add esp,+04
    [00001585] 8945e8 mov [ebp-18],eax
    [00001588] 6a34 push +34
    [0000158a] e803f2ffff call 00000792
    [0000158f] 83c404 add esp,+04
    [00001592] 8945f4 mov [ebp-0c],eax
    [00001595] 6800000100 push 00010000
    [0000159a] e8f3f1ffff call 00000792
    [0000159f] 83c404 add esp,+04
    [000015a2] 8945f8 mov [ebp-08],eax
    [000015a5] 6880a90300 push 0003a980
    [000015aa] e8e3f1ffff call 00000792
    [000015af] 83c404 add esp,+04
    [000015b2] 8945f0 mov [ebp-10],eax
    [000015b5] 8b4df8 mov ecx,[ebp-08]
    [000015b8] 51 push ecx
    [000015b9] 8b55f4 mov edx,[ebp-0c]
    [000015bc] 52 push edx
    [000015bd] 8b45ec mov eax,[ebp-14]
    [000015c0] 50 push eax
    [000015c1] 8b4d0c mov ecx,[ebp+0c]
    [000015c4] 51 push ecx
    [000015c5] 8b5508 mov edx,[ebp+08]
    [000015c8] 52 push edx
    [000015c9] e804faffff call 00000fd2
    [000015ce] 83c414 add esp,+14
    [000015d1] 8b45f0 mov eax,[ebp-10]
    [000015d4] 50 push eax
    [000015d5] 68d3040000 push 000004d3
    [000015da] e8a3f1ffff call 00000782
    [000015df] 83c408 add esp,+08
    [000015e2] 8b4dfc mov ecx,[ebp-04]
    [000015e5] 51 push ecx
    [000015e6] 6807050000 push 00000507
    [000015eb] e892f1ffff call 00000782
    [000015f0] 83c408 add esp,+08
    [000015f3] 8b550c mov edx,[ebp+0c]
    [000015f6] 52 push edx
    [000015f7] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
    [000015fa] 50 push eax
    [000015fb] 8b4dfc mov ecx,[ebp-04]
    [000015fe] 51 push ecx
    [000015ff] 8d55f8 lea edx,[ebp-08]
    [00001602] 52 push edx
    [00001603] 8d45f4 lea eax,[ebp-0c]
    [00001606] 50 push eax
    [00001607] 8d4de8 lea ecx,[ebp-18]
    [0000160a] 51 push ecx
    [0000160b] 8b55e4 mov edx,[ebp-1c]
    [0000160e] 52 push edx
    [0000160f] 8d45e0 lea eax,[ebp-20]
    [00001612] 50 push eax
    [00001613] 8d4df0 lea ecx,[ebp-10]
    [00001616] 51 push ecx
    [00001617] 6817050000 push 00000517
    [0000161c] e8d1f8ffff call 00000ef2
    [00001621] 83c428 add esp,+28
    [00001624] 85c0 test eax,eax
    [00001626] 7414 jz 0000163c
    [00001628] 681b050000 push 0000051b
    [0000162d] e840f1ffff call 00000772
    [00001632] 83c404 add esp,+04
    [00001635] b801000000 mov eax,00000001
    [0000163a] eb02 jmp 0000163e
    [0000163c] 33c0 xor eax,eax
    [0000163e] 8be5 mov esp,ebp
    [00001640] 5d pop ebp
    [00001641] c3 ret
    Size in bytes:(0256) [00001641]

    [ ... ]

    _D()
    [00001c72] 55 push ebp
    [00001c73] 8bec mov ebp,esp
    [00001c75] 51 push ecx
    [00001c76] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
    [00001c79] 50 push eax
    [00001c7a] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
    [00001c7d] 51 push ecx
    [00001c7e] e8bff8ffff call 00001542
    [00001c83] 83c408 add esp,+08
    [00001c86] 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
    [00001c89] 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
    [00001c8d] 7402 jz 00001c91
    [00001c8f] ebfe jmp 00001c8f
    [00001c91] 8b45fc mov eax,[ebp-04]
    [00001c94] 8be5 mov esp,ebp
    [00001c96] 5d pop ebp
    [00001c97] c3 ret
    Size in bytes:(0038) [00001c97]

    [ ... ]

    machine stack stack machine assembly
    address address data code language
    ======== ======= ======== ============== =============
    [00001cd2][00102f25][00000000] 55 push ebp
    [00001cd3][00102f25][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
    [00001cd5][00102f21][00001c72] 68721c0000 push 00001c72
    [00001cda][00102f1d][00001c72] 68721c0000 push 00001c72
    [00001cdf][00102f19][00001ce4] e85ef8ffff call 00001542

    H: Begin Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:112fd1
    Address_of_H:1542
    RECK: newly executing: entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 00102F8D, EIP == 00001C72
    [00001c72][00112fbd][00112fc1] 55 push ebp
    [00001c73][00112fbd][00112fc1] 8bec mov ebp,esp
    [00001c75][00112fb9][00102f8d] 51 push ecx
    [00001c76][00112fb9][00102f8d] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
    [00001c79][00112fb5][00001c72] 50 push eax
    [00001c7a][00112fb5][00001c72] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
    [00001c7d][00112fb1][00001c72] 51 push ecx
    [00001c7e][00112fad][00001c83] e8bff8ffff call 00001542
    H: Infinitely Recursive Simulation Detected Simulation Stopped

    [00001ce4][00102f25][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
    [00001ce7][00102f21][00000000] 50 push eax
    [00001ce8][00102f1d][00000763] 6863070000 push 00000763
    [00001ced][00102f1d][00000763] e890eaffff call 00000782
    Input_Halts = 0
    [00001cf2][00102f25][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
    [00001cf5][00102f25][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax
    [00001cf7][00102f29][00000018] 5d pop ebp
    [00001cf8][00102f2d][00000000] c3 ret
    Number of Instructions Executed(975) == 15 Pages
    RECK: ---------------
    RECK: simulations for these function still exist:
    RECK: entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 00102F8D, EIP == 00001542
    RECK: ---------------
    RECK: continuing simulation of entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 00102F8D, EIP == 00001542

    H: Begin Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:15d9f9
    Address_of_H:1542
    RECK: newly executing: entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 0014D9B5, EIP == 00001C72
    H: Infinitely Recursive Simulation Detected Simulation Stopped

    RECK: simulation of entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 00102F8D, EIP == 00001C97 reached code_end!
    RECK: ---------------
    RECK: reckoning completed


    As you can see, _D is somehow suspended such taht its EIP points to 0001542 which is _H. It is some aggressive form of the abort check in this version of the .obj. It never gets to start a second _D simulation.

    When reckoning.cpp restarts this abandoned _D simulation which is just about to execute _H, it turns out that the simulated _H also dtects the "Infinitely Recursive Simulation", emitting that message. Then it returns to _D.
    It must be returning 0 because _D promptly terminates by readching
    its code_end at 00001C97.
    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From joes@noreply@example.org to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 10:06:56 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    Am Wed, 29 Oct 2025 18:35:54 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/29/2025 6:30 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/29/2025 2:08 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate D according to the >>>>> semantics of the C language until H sees that itself is stuck in
    recursive simulation.

    You can stipulate that, but H doesn’t do it.

    Then H reports 0, whereas if the simulation is continued,
    it hals in th esmae way as a D() executed on a regular
    simulartor/processor.

    I don't see how you are getting this.

    You don’t see how D calls an aborting simulator? H1 simulates that.

    Which line of code are you struggling with? I'm open to questions.

    You tried to get away with saying that this halts

    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return;
    }

    So all that I see is flat out dishonesty.

    That is literally a lie. Nobody has suggested anything like that.
    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 12:15:56 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said:

    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined >>>>>>> because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the equivocation >>>>>> deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others respond. >>>>>
    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation.

    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with equivocation.

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping
    the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference
    seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 07:36:51 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/30/2025 5:06 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 29 Oct 2025 18:35:54 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/29/2025 6:30 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/29/2025 2:08 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate D according to the >>>>>> semantics of the C language until H sees that itself is stuck in
    recursive simulation.

    You can stipulate that, but H doesn’t do it.

    Then H reports 0, whereas if the simulation is continued,
    it hals in th esmae way as a D() executed on a regular
    simulartor/processor.

    I don't see how you are getting this.

    You don’t see how D calls an aborting simulator? H1 simulates that.


    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Are you too fucking stupid to see
    that D simulated by H cannot reach
    its own simulated "return" statement?

    If you are then I am done talking to you.

    Which line of code are you struggling with? I'm open to questions.

    You tried to get away with saying that this halts

    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return;
    }

    So all that I see is flat out dishonesty.

    That is literally a lie. Nobody has suggested anything like that.


    He admitted that he did recently.

    On 10/29/2025 6:47 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    You tried to get away with saying that this halts

    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return;
    }

    That was just the one time I was kidding.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 07:39:35 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/30/2025 12:33 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:


    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    In Jun you committed a Halt7.obj which uses H(D). So we can run
    this.


    Are you too fucking stupid to see
    that D simulated by H cannot reach
    its own simulated "return" statement?
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From joes@noreply@example.org to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 12:55:03 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    Am Thu, 30 Oct 2025 07:36:51 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/30/2025 5:06 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 29 Oct 2025 18:35:54 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/29/2025 6:30 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/29/2025 2:08 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:

    Then H reports 0, whereas if the simulation is continued,
    it hals in th esmae way as a D() executed on a regular
    simulartor/processor.
    I don't see how you are getting this.
    You don’t see how D calls an aborting simulator? H1 simulates that.
    Are you too fucking stupid to see that D simulated by H cannot reach its
    own simulated "return" statement?
    If you are then I am done talking to you.

    Could you explain what you think D would do after being aborted?
    Or why H1 doesn’t notice that it is calling a non-aborting simulator?

    Which line of code are you struggling with? I'm open to questions.
    You tried to get away with saying that this halts
    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return;
    }
    So all that I see is flat out dishonesty.
    That is literally a lie. Nobody has suggested anything like that.
    He admitted that he did recently.
    On 10/29/2025 6:47 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    That was just the one time I was kidding.

    You are literally immune to humour. So which line of code gives you
    trouble?
    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From dbush@dbush.mobile@gmail.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 08:58:20 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/30/2025 8:39 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 10/30/2025 12:33 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:


    int D()
    {
        int Halt_Status = H(D);
        if (Halt_Status)
          HERE: goto HERE;
        return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    In Jun you committed a Halt7.obj which uses H(D). So we can run
    this.


    Are you too fucking stupid to see
    that D simulated by H cannot reach
    its own simulated "return" statement?

    His code proves that is does, but you don't have the guts to look at it.

    The fact that you trimmed the conclusive proof he gave demonstrates the
    depth of your dishonesty.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 08:12:24 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said:

    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and there >>>>>>>>> id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully
    defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the
    referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is >>>>>>>> part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the equivocation >>>>>>> deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others
    respond.

    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation.

    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with equivocation.

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping
    the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference
    seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.


    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    It is the semantic property
    OF THE INPUT NOT ANY OTHER DAMN THING
    OF THE INPUT NOT ANY OTHER DAMN THING
    OF THE INPUT NOT ANY OTHER DAMN THING
    OF THE INPUT NOT ANY OTHER DAMN THING
    OF THE INPUT NOT ANY OTHER DAMN THING
    That is being measured.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 08:47:37 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/30/2025 7:55 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Thu, 30 Oct 2025 07:36:51 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/30/2025 5:06 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 29 Oct 2025 18:35:54 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/29/2025 6:30 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/29/2025 2:08 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:

    Then H reports 0, whereas if the simulation is continued,
    it hals in th esmae way as a D() executed on a regular
    simulartor/processor.
    I don't see how you are getting this.
    You don’t see how D calls an aborting simulator? H1 simulates that.
    Are you too fucking stupid to see that D simulated by H cannot reach its
    own simulated "return" statement?
    If you are then I am done talking to you.

    Could you explain what you think D would do after being aborted?
    Or why H1 doesn’t notice that it is calling a non-aborting simulator?


    D simulated by H measures the semantic property
    of the actual input as opposed to and contrast
    with the semantic property of a non-input. H and
    H1 are identical except that D does not call H1.

    We can tell an input from an input because an
    input is an argument to the function H.

    D.input_to_H
    specifies different behavior than
    D.input_to_H1.

    int DD()
    {
    int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0;

    H1 simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    then H(D) returns 0 to caller D
    then H1 returns 1;


    You are literally immune to humour. So which line of code gives you
    trouble?


    *This is a life and death thing here*
    We need to get LLM systems to be reliable
    so that they can counteract the hired liars
    of climate change.

    It also could be a life and death thing by
    not making Nazi propaganda impotent. Trump
    is at the early stages of Hitler's rise to
    power so no atrocities yet.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kaz Kylheku@643-408-1753@kylheku.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 16:47:14 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/30/2025 12:33 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:


    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    In Jun you committed a Halt7.obj which uses H(D). So we can run
    this.


    Are you too fucking stupid to see

    You can earn your right to call me stupid, when you refer to code
    where I messed up.

    From where I'm standing, that epithet rather applies to you, and
    I wouldn't hesitate to use it, so it is fair to use it on me.

    You put /fake/ countermeasures into your code to try to make sure that a simulated H would behave differently from the top-level H, so as to
    never return to the simulated D.

    You did not /validate/ this hypothesis by not writing the code to
    continue the simulation after H is done with it.

    And, would you know it, a regression has showed up; your idiotic cheat
    which would get your code instantly dismissed by CS academia is not
    working.

    that D simulated by H cannot reach
    its own simulated "return" statement?

    It depends on the H, obviously!

    Under a simulationg H which doesn't abort, that is true.

    Under a H which looks for the abort pattern and returns 0, that is
    completely false.

    I've shown it with code now. You must engage the code to have anything meaningful to say. Other people can run the code and see that the same
    result. You will not convince them that it's wrong just by shouting
    about nothing.

    By the way, your cheat i snot exactly working even in the oldest
    Halt7.obj that you have in the repo.

    $ git log --oneline Halt7.obj
    bef45a7 Add files via upload
    90a8f6f Add files via upload
    37bc98d Add files via upload
    8b3806d Add files via upload

    This earliest one, 8b3806d, has HHH calling DD. It says "Input_Halts =
    0", aborting DD. When I resume the aborted DD, indeed it is stuck;
    it won't terminate. It does not reach its return statement.
    However, it /does/ reach the "do-the-opposite" code; it is actually
    stuck in an infinite loop because the simulated HHH returned to it,
    and it obviously returned a value of 1. Mike Terry figured out the bug
    why that happened; find his article from earlier this week.
    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kaz Kylheku@643-408-1753@kylheku.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 17:07:50 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/30/2025 7:55 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Thu, 30 Oct 2025 07:36:51 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/30/2025 5:06 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 29 Oct 2025 18:35:54 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 10/29/2025 6:30 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-29, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/29/2025 2:08 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:

    Then H reports 0, whereas if the simulation is continued,
    it hals in th esmae way as a D() executed on a regular
    simulartor/processor.
    I don't see how you are getting this.
    You don’t see how D calls an aborting simulator? H1 simulates that.
    Are you too fucking stupid to see that D simulated by H cannot reach its >>> own simulated "return" statement?
    If you are then I am done talking to you.

    Could you explain what you think D would do after being aborted?
    Or why H1 doesn’t notice that it is calling a non-aborting simulator?


    D simulated by H measures the semantic property
    of the actual input as opposed to and contrast
    with the semantic property of a non-input. H and
    H1 are identical except that D does not call H1.

    D correctly simulated by an aborting H behaves the same way, provable
    with working code.

    H partially simulates D up to a point. D has more instructions left to
    execute, but is left suspended. From that point we can show that D can
    be continued, and it will reach halting.

    You know this very well, which is why you put in code like this
    into the simulation initialization logic:

    u32 Root = Init_Halts_HH(&Aborted, &execution_trace, &decoded, &code_end, (u32)P,
    &master_state, &slave_state, &slave_stack);

    Init_Halts_HH returns 1 when the first, outermost simuation is
    being initialized. After that it return 0 to the nested levels.
    When the flag is zero, you disable the abort checking, so HHH turns into
    a pure simulator. That HHH will not return to DD, so DD changes
    from terminating to nonterminating.

    In your discussions you do not mention this, claiming that it is a
    spontaneous phenomenon arising from the semantics properties of H and D
    that the simulated H does not return to the simulated D (even though the directly excuted H returns 0).

    Yet, the cheat logic does not actually work; you have bugs in it, which
    is why my addition to your code is confirming that the simulated HHH is returning to its caller, and even terminating (except in the case of
    the oldest .obj files, in which the simulated HHH returns 1, causing
    the simulated DD to loop, and contradicting the top-level HHH
    returning 0).

    We can tell an input from an input because an
    input is an argument to the function H.

    D.input_to_H
    specifies different behavior than
    D.input_to_H1.

    D does not specify a behavior. D's behavior comes from an external specification which guides the interpretation of D's representation.

    Neither D, nor H nor H1 specify behavior. H or H1 either implement the specification correctly, of interpreting D, or not.

    H /almost/ implements it correctly except that it abruptly stops
    simulating.

    At that point, up to that intruction, the simulation is in the same
    state as it would be if it were simulated without aborting.

    Therefore it has exactly the same computational future (i.e.
    continuation): a terminating one.
    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 12:11:29 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/30/2025 11:47 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/30/2025 12:33 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:


    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    In Jun you committed a Halt7.obj which uses H(D). So we can run
    this.


    Are you too fucking stupid to see

    You can earn your right to call me stupid, when you refer to code
    where I messed up.

    From where I'm standing, that epithet rather applies to you, and
    I wouldn't hesitate to use it, so it is fair to use it on me.

    You put /fake/ countermeasures into your code to try to make sure that a simulated H would behave differently from the top-level H, so as to
    never return to the simulated D.

    You did not /validate/ this hypothesis by not writing the code to
    continue the simulation after H is done with it.

    And, would you know it, a regression has showed up; your idiotic cheat
    which would get your code instantly dismissed by CS academia is not
    working.

    that D simulated by H cannot reach
    its own simulated "return" statement?

    It depends on the H, obviously!

    Under a simulationg H which doesn't abort, that is true.

    Under a H which looks for the abort pattern and returns 0, that is
    completely false.


    So you are too fucking stupid to pay attention
    to the fact that D simulated by H is not fucking
    D() called from main().
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kaz Kylheku@643-408-1753@kylheku.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 20:05:26 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/30/2025 11:47 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    that D simulated by H cannot reach
    its own simulated "return" statement?

    It depends on the H, obviously!

    Under a simulationg H which doesn't abort, that is true.

    Under a H which looks for the abort pattern and returns 0, that is
    completely false.


    So you are too fucking stupid to pay attention
    to the fact that D simulated by H is not fucking
    D() called from main().

    You miserable, desperate imbecile:

    I am tracing the D simulation from H, and that one halts.

    I am not tracing D called from main.

    D is /not/ called from main in any of your the Halt.obj test cases
    in the history of that file.

    I have not touched your Halt7.obj test files whatsoever; you
    compiled those.

    Even if something were to be (wrongly!) different between the two
    (which is plausible due to your cheat-ridden bug trap known as x86utm
    and its Halt7 test case file) it is completely /irrelevant/
    since I'm not looking at D called from main, what-so-ever.

    Until you grapple with the actual code you are just pushing air from
    under your keycaps.
    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 15:14:28 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/30/2025 3:05 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/30/2025 11:47 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    that D simulated by H cannot reach
    its own simulated "return" statement?

    It depends on the H, obviously!

    Under a simulationg H which doesn't abort, that is true.

    Under a H which looks for the abort pattern and returns 0, that is
    completely false.


    So you are too fucking stupid to pay attention
    to the fact that D simulated by H is not fucking
    D() called from main().

    You miserable, desperate imbecile:

    I am tracing the D simulation from H, and that one halts.


    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0;

    Then you must be a fucking liar.

    I am not tracing D called from main.

    D is /not/ called from main in any of your the Halt.obj test cases
    in the history of that file.

    I have not touched your Halt7.obj test files whatsoever; you
    compiled those.


    I am not fucking talking about Halt7.obj you
    fucking moron. There is no D in Halt7.obj nitwit.
    *I would much much rather be nice, but nice DOES NOT WORK*

    Even if something were to be (wrongly!) different between the two
    (which is plausible due to your cheat-ridden bug trap known as x86utm
    and its Halt7 test case file) it is completely /irrelevant/
    since I'm not looking at D called from main, what-so-ever.

    Until you grapple with the actual code you are just pushing air from
    under your keycaps.

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kaz Kylheku@643-408-1753@kylheku.com to comp.theory on Thu Oct 30 20:40:49 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/30/2025 3:05 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-10-30, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 10/30/2025 11:47 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    that D simulated by H cannot reach
    its own simulated "return" statement?

    It depends on the H, obviously!

    Under a simulationg H which doesn't abort, that is true.

    Under a H which looks for the abort pattern and returns 0, that is
    completely false.


    So you are too fucking stupid to pay attention
    to the fact that D simulated by H is not fucking
    D() called from main().

    You miserable, desperate imbecile:

    I am tracing the D simulation from H, and that one halts.


    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0;

    Then you must be a fucking liar.

    For me to be a liar, I must have done something deliberatley invalid
    in my coding exploration.

    First you have to show that I have done something invalid,
    then successfully argue that it was deliberate.

    [You've made no effort so far.]

    In any case, if you show I have done something invalid, I will
    try to fix it, confirming my honesty.

    I am not tracing D called from main.

    D is /not/ called from main in any of your the Halt.obj test cases
    in the history of that file.

    I have not touched your Halt7.obj test files whatsoever; you
    compiled those.


    I am not fucking talking about Halt7.obj you
    fucking moron. There is no D in Halt7.obj nitwit.

    Yes there is:

    $ git log --oneline Halt7.obj
    bef45a7 Add files via upload
    90a8f6f Add files via upload
    37bc98d Add files via upload <--- this one has H(D)
    8b3806d Add files via upload

    When is that from? June 22, 2023:

    $ git show -q 37bc98d
    commit 37bc98daa37995748798af31b88bbdbc45289a57
    Author: plolcott <59188130+plolcott@users.noreply.github.com>
    Date: Thu Jun 22 14:49:10 2023 -0500

    Add files via upload

    When I run the H(D) test case from June 22, 2023, it shows that the D simulation initiated by H is halting.

    I believe that this Halt7.obj that you have chosen to publish
    to the world in the public site GitHub represents your best
    attempt at showing the H(D) relationship in code.

    The D simulated by H halts, so either you are wrong, or you
    did something wrong in the code.

    If you think you did something wrong, please provide a Halt7.obj
    with the matching source code which has the corrected H and D
    that demonstrate that things are as you say they are.

    *I would much much rather be nice, but nice DOES NOT WORK*

    Nice doesn't work any more than daft.

    Until you grapple with the actual code you are just pushing air from
    under your keycaps.

    Stands.
    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory on Fri Oct 31 13:37:33 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-30 13:12:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said:

    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined >>>>>>>>> because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the equivocation >>>>>>>> deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others respond. >>>>>>>
    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation.

    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with equivocation. >>>
    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping
    the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference
    seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.

    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    Olcott wrote on 2025-10-24:

    When 0 to infinity steps of DD are
    correctly simulated by HHH the
    simulated DD never reaches its own
    simulated final halt state.

    On 10/26/25 7:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the referent or partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I have answered about my use of "DD". Olcott has not answered but tried
    to devert attention from the question.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Fri Oct 31 07:47:01 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 10/31/2025 6:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:12:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said:

    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and >>>>>>>>>>> there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully >>>>>>>>>> defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the >>>>>>>>>> referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, >>>>>>>>>> is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the
    equivocation
    deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others >>>>>>>>> respond.

    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation. >>>>>>
    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with
    equivocation.

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping
    the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference
    seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.

    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    Olcott wrote on 2025-10-24:

    When 0 to infinity steps of DD are
    correctly simulated by HHH the
    simulated DD never reaches its own
    simulated final halt state.

    On 10/26/25 7:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I have answered about my use of "DD". Olcott has not answered but tried
    to devert attention from the question.


    All that we need to know about H is specified by this:

    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0 to reject its input as non-halting.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 11:58:39 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-10-31 12:47:01 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:12:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said:

    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the equivocation >>>>>>>>>> deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others respond.

    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation. >>>>>>>
    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with equivocation. >>>>>
    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping
    the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference
    seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.

    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    Olcott wrote on 2025-10-24:

    When 0 to infinity steps of DD are
    correctly simulated by HHH the
    simulated DD never reaches its own
    simulated final halt state.

    On 10/26/25 7:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the referent or >>> partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is part of >>> the referent itself?

    I have answered about my use of "DD". Olcott has not answered but tried
    to devert attention from the question.


    All that we need to know about H is specified by this:

    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0 to reject its input as non-halting.

    That is much more than all we need to know about H. All we need to
    know about H is that it is not a halt decider.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 08:45:30 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/1/2025 4:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-31 12:47:01 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:12:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said:

    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully >>>>>>>>>>>> defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the >>>>>>>>>>>> referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the
    referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the >>>>>>>>>>> equivocation
    deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others >>>>>>>>>>> respond.

    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation. >>>>>>>>
    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with
    equivocation.

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping
    the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference
    seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.

    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    Olcott wrote on 2025-10-24:

    When 0 to infinity steps of DD are
    correctly simulated by HHH the
    simulated DD never reaches its own
    simulated final halt state.

    On 10/26/25 7:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the
    referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is
    part of
    the referent itself?

    I have answered about my use of "DD". Olcott has not answered but tried
    to devert attention from the question.


    All that we need to know about H is specified by this:

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0 to reject its input as non-halting.

    That is much more than all we need to know about H. All we need to
    know about H is that it is not a halt decider.


    *Richard flat out lied about this*
    D simulated by H according to the semantics of C
    programming language (until H sees the repeating
    pattern) does enable H to report that its simulated
    input cannot possibly reach its own simulated
    "return" statement final halt state.

    H is a correct termination analyzer for D.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kaz Kylheku@643-408-1753@kylheku.com to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 16:46:45 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-01, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 11/1/2025 4:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-31 12:47:01 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:12:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said:

    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully >>>>>>>>>>>>> defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the >>>>>>>>>>>>> referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the >>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation
    deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others >>>>>>>>>>>> respond.

    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation. >>>>>>>>>
    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with
    equivocation.

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping
    the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference >>>>>> seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.

    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    Olcott wrote on 2025-10-24:

    When 0 to infinity steps of DD are
    correctly simulated by HHH the
    simulated DD never reaches its own
    simulated final halt state.

    On 10/26/25 7:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined >>>>> because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the
    referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is
    part of
    the referent itself?

    I have answered about my use of "DD". Olcott has not answered but tried >>>> to devert attention from the question.


    All that we need to know about H is specified by this:

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0 to reject its input as non-halting.

    That is much more than all we need to know about H. All we need to
    know about H is that it is not a halt decider.


    *Richard flat out lied about this*
    D simulated by H according to the semantics of C
    programming language (until H sees the repeating
    pattern) does enable H to report that its simulated
    input cannot possibly reach its own simulated
    "return" statement final halt state.

    H is a correct termination analyzer for D.

    Not that you've been able to code.

    Simulation of Halt7.obj from commit 37bc98d,
    which tests H(D):

    [...]
    Input_Halts = 0
    [00001cf2][00102f25][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08 [00001cf5][00102f25][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax [00001cf7][00102f29][00000018] 5d pop ebp [00001cf8][00102f2d][00000000] c3 ret
    Number of Instructions Executed(975) == 15 Pages
    RECK: ---------------
    RECK: simulations for these function still exist:
    RECK: entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 00102F8D, EIP == 00001542
    RECK: ---------------
    RECK: continuing simulation of entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 00102F8D, EIP == 00001542

    H: Begin Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:15d9f9
    Address_of_H:1542
    RECK: newly executing: entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 0014D9B5, EIP == 00001C72
    H: Infinitely Recursive Simulation Detected Simulation Stopped

    RECK: simulation of entry == 00001C72 (_D), code_end == 00001C97, slave_state == 00102F8D, EIP == 00001C97 reached code_end!
    RECK: ---------------
    RECK: reckoning completed

    Simulated D, after being abandoned by H, can be shown to continue and reach address 00001C97 which is D's RET nistruction.

    All we do is use DebugStep on D's slave_state.

    You wrote most of the code; I just did a few things to string it together.

    D is this:

    _D()
    [00001c72] 55 push ebp
    [00001c73] 8bec mov ebp,esp
    [00001c75] 51 push ecx
    [00001c76] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
    [00001c79] 50 push eax
    [00001c7a] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
    [00001c7d] 51 push ecx
    [00001c7e] e8bff8ffff call 00001542 <--- CALL H
    [00001c83] 83c408 add esp,+08
    [00001c86] 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
    [00001c89] 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
    [00001c8d] 7402 jz 00001c91
    [00001c8f] ebfe jmp 00001c8f
    [00001c91] 8b45fc mov eax,[ebp-04]
    [00001c94] 8be5 mov esp,ebp
    [00001c96] 5d pop ebp
    [00001c97] c3 ret
    Size in bytes:(0038) [00001c97]

    H is this (abridged):

    _H()
    [00001542] 55 push ebp
    [00001543] 8bec mov ebp,esp
    [00001545] 83ec20 sub esp,+20
    [00001548] 6842150000 push 00001542
    [0000154d] e8a0f2ffff call 000007f2
    [00001552] 83c404 add esp,+04

    [...]

    [00001635] b801000000 mov eax,00000001
    [0000163e] 8be5 mov esp,ebp
    [00001640] 5d pop ebp
    [00001641] c3 ret
    Size in bytes:(0256) [00001641]
    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 12:47:10 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/1/2025 11:46 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-11-01, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 11/1/2025 4:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-31 12:47:01 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:12:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully >>>>>>>>>>>>>> defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the >>>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation
    deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others >>>>>>>>>>>>> respond.

    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation. >>>>>>>>>>
    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with
    equivocation.

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping >>>>>>> the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference >>>>>>> seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.

    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    Olcott wrote on 2025-10-24:

    When 0 to infinity steps of DD are
    correctly simulated by HHH the
    simulated DD never reaches its own
    simulated final halt state.

    On 10/26/25 7:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined >>>>>> because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the
    referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is
    part of
    the referent itself?

    I have answered about my use of "DD". Olcott has not answered but tried >>>>> to devert attention from the question.


    All that we need to know about H is specified by this:

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0 to reject its input as non-halting.

    That is much more than all we need to know about H. All we need to
    know about H is that it is not a halt decider.


    *Richard flat out lied about this*
    D simulated by H according to the semantics of C
    programming language (until H sees the repeating
    pattern) does enable H to report that its simulated
    input cannot possibly reach its own simulated
    "return" statement final halt state.

    H is a correct termination analyzer for D.

    Not that you've been able to code.


    I have been able to code it yet the x86 language has
    proven to be enormously too difficult for everyone
    here. BECAUSE OF THIS I WILL NOT DISCUSS THE X86
    CODE WITH ANYONE.

    Since you already admitted this:
    On 10/31/2025 7:44 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    I can write a C interpreter which can interpret itself.

    What the fuck is holding you up with proving your
    damned lie that D simulated by H reaches its own
    simulated "return" statement?
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
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  • From dbush@dbush.mobile@gmail.com to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 14:18:45 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/1/2025 1:47 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 11/1/2025 11:46 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-11-01, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 11/1/2025 4:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-31 12:47:01 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:12:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation
    deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others >>>>>>>>>>>>>> respond.

    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers >>>>>>>>>>>>> have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
        int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
        if (Halt_Status)
          HERE: goto HERE;
        return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
        HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with
    equivocation.

    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
        int Halt_Status = H(D);
        if (Halt_Status)
          HERE: goto HERE;
        return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with >>>>>>>>>> equivocation.

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping >>>>>>>> the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference >>>>>>>> seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.

    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    Olcott wrote on 2025-10-24:

    When 0 to infinity steps of DD are
    correctly simulated by HHH the
    simulated DD never reaches its own
    simulated final halt state.

    On 10/26/25 7:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined >>>>>>> because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the
    referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is >>>>>>> part of
    the referent itself?

    I have answered about my use of "DD". Olcott has not answered but >>>>>> tried
    to devert attention from the question.


    All that we need to know about H is specified by this:

    int D()
    {
        int Halt_Status = H(D);
        if (Halt_Status)
          HERE: goto HERE;
        return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0 to reject its input as non-halting.

    That is much more than all we need to know about H. All we need to
    know about H is that it is not a halt decider.


    *Richard flat out lied about this*
    D simulated by H according to the semantics of C
    programming language (until H sees the repeating
    pattern) does enable H to report that its simulated
    input cannot possibly reach its own simulated
    "return" statement final halt state.

    H is a correct termination analyzer for D.

    Not that you've been able to code.


    I have been able to code it yet the x86 language has
    proven to be enormously too difficult for everyone
    here. BECAUSE OF THIS I WILL NOT DISCUSS THE X86
    CODE WITH ANYONE.

    No, you won't discuss x86 because Kaz's code proves you wrong and you
    don't want to face up to it. And everyone here knows it.


    Since you already admitted this:
    On 10/31/2025 7:44 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    I can write a C interpreter which can interpret itself.

    What the fuck is holding you up with proving your
    damned lie that D simulated by H reaches its own
    simulated "return" statement?


    It's proven by Kaz's source code that you're too scared to talk about.

    On 2/8/2025 9:59 AM, olcott wrote:
    Disagreeing with source-code is not a smart thing to do.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kaz Kylheku@643-408-1753@kylheku.com to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 18:53:37 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-01, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    H is a correct termination analyzer for D.

    Not that you've been able to code.

    I have been able to code it yet the x86 language has
    proven to be enormously too difficult for everyone
    here. BECAUSE OF THIS I WILL NOT DISCUSS THE X86
    CODE WITH ANYONE.

    The one who will not discuss is obviously the one who doesn't wish his
    lack of understanding to be exposed.

    YOu're obviously saying this because of the emergence of an extension
    to your x86utm which can keep track of Halt7.obj's simulations and
    continue stepping them after that test case has announced a result and terminated.

    Moreover, traces have been posted with accurate analyses, reaching right
    down to the x86 assembly level.

    Since you already admitted this:
    On 10/31/2025 7:44 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    I can write a C interpreter which can interpret itself.

    What the fuck is holding you up with proving your
    damned lie that D simulated by H reaches its own
    simulated "return" statement?

    If I don't reuse someone else's interpreter, it requires weeks,
    possibly months of effort to develop from scratch. And is of no benefit
    to me. I do have other interests and other things to work on.

    I have shown using your x86 apparatus that D simulated by H reaches a
    halting state.

    You are now moving the goalposts to a nonexistent system, because you
    are desperate.

    First show that you have a pure C simulation system in which
    there is an H that declares D to be non-terminating and returs 0.

    You /don't/ have that right now, and you are disavowing your x86 work,
    which means you have /NOTHING/.

    Once you have your stuff worked into pure C without any x86, then I
    /might/ spend the 45 minutes to give it the hack to revive abandoned simulations. No promises.
    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory on Sat Nov 1 14:15:53 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/1/2025 1:53 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
    On 2025-11-01, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
    H is a correct termination analyzer for D.

    Not that you've been able to code.

    I have been able to code it yet the x86 language has
    proven to be enormously too difficult for everyone
    here. BECAUSE OF THIS I WILL NOT DISCUSS THE X86
    CODE WITH ANYONE.

    The one who will not discuss is obviously the one who doesn't wish his
    lack of understanding to be exposed.


    If I am wrong then you can show this in C
    otherwise you admit that I am correct.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory on Sun Nov 2 14:24:24 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-01 13:45:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/1/2025 4:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-31 12:47:01 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/31/2025 6:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-30 13:12:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/30/2025 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-29 16:33:58 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/29/2025 5:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-28 15:14:07 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/28/2025 5:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-27 14:41:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 10/27/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-10-26 11:28:47 +0000, Tristan Wibberley said:

    On 26/10/2025 09:11, Mikko Levanto wrote:

    HHH never dimulates more steps than there are in DD, and there id only a
    finite number of steps there.

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined
    because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the referent or
    partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is part of
    the referent itself?

    I am. Olcott does not specify as that would prevent the equivocation
    deception that might be useful later, dependig on how others respond.

    Now that four different LLM systems have been able
    reverse-engineer the non-halting result by merely
    being told to faithfully simulate DD with HHH and
    see what happens this proves that all of my reviewers
    have been dishonest with me for three years.

    typedef int (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);


    int DD()
    {
       int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DD);
    }

    *Halting Problem Simulation in C*
    https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCHPS-2.pdf

    Note that the above keeps the option to deceive with equivocation. >>>>>>>>>
    I will simplify it for you:
    Anyone knowing C and denying this is a liar.

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern.

    Note that the above still keeps the option to deceive with equivocation.

    Not at all, it is stipulated that H does simulate
    D according to the semantics of the C language until
    H sees that itself is stuck in recursive simulation.

    Note that Olcott still does not answer the question, thus keeping
    the option to deceive with equivocation even though his preference >>>>>> seems to be distraction by an irrelevancy.

    I am referring to D simulated by H when you change
    my words to something else you are a liar.

    Olcott wrote on 2025-10-24:

    When 0 to infinity steps of DD are
    correctly simulated by HHH the
    simulated DD never reaches its own
    simulated final halt state.

    On 10/26/25 7:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Are we taking that "DD" refers to a C-function that is fully defined >>>>> because HHH has external linkage and is thus not part of the referent or >>>>> partially defined because HHH, as a callee from the referent, is part of >>>>> the referent itself?

    I have answered about my use of "DD". Olcott has not answered but tried >>>> to devert attention from the question.


    All that we need to know about H is specified by this:

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    H simulates D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    that calls H(D) to simulate D
    until H sees this repeating pattern
    Then H returns 0 to reject its input as non-halting.

    That is much more than all we need to know about H. All we need to
    know about H is that it is not a halt decider.

    *Richard flat out lied about this*

    Irrelevant, as I didn't say anything about Richard; and off-topic, too.
    --
    Mikko

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