• Intel's High-End CPU Problem

    From Spalls Hurgenson@spallshurgenson@gmail.com to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Sat Apr 13 15:06:16 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action


    This isn't really news - in fact, I posted about the problem being
    reported back in February - but the story* is gaining more traction
    recently.

    Specifically, a number of agencies are now writing stories about how
    the power-hungry Intel 13900K and 14900K CPUs keep crashing when
    revved up to full speed. It's still not entirely clear where the blame
    lies; certainly the motherboard manufacturers shoulder some of the
    blame for not following Intel's specs closely enough, and OCing the
    CPUs past their rated limits. But Intel also deserves some of the
    shame, since a) the -K processors are specifically sold as being
    overclocking tolerant, and b) the CPU is a disgustingly power-hungry
    design. Plus, where did all those mobo manufacturers get the idea that
    they could safely OC the CPU to those levels if not from Intel in the
    first place?

    Anyway, downclocking the CPU 'solves' the problem with minimal
    end-user effect. Still, if somebody paid a premium to get one of those
    chips, I bet they'd be pissed at having to do so. In fact, the return
    rate on these particular CPUs is unusually high. I wonder why?



    I, of course, have specific interest in the story since I was one of
    those affected by the problem. I purposefully bought a 13900K CPU, not
    because I wanted to overclock it, but I wanted that overhead as a
    'safety net'. In essence, I paid the premium specifically to avoid
    issues like this. With a -K processor, I thought, even if there were
    power issues just like this, I wouldn't have to worry about it because
    - since I was running at stock - it wouldn't affect me.

    In general, I've had good luck with Intel chips anyway. I really like
    AMD CPUs - they're often the better design - but there have been
    compatibility issues and Intel was the 'safe' choice. Sure, it might
    not have been the 'best' or 'fastest', but a 13900K was still 'fast
    enough' and - I thought - was more likely to be problem free.

    And, in truth, for the first six months it /was/ trouble-free. But
    after a while, I started seeing odd issues. The most noticeable was
    that any ZIP files created by 7Zip ended up corrupt. But there were
    weird random crashes too and - ultimately - my computer stopped
    booting entirely. All the standard tests indicated everything was
    running normally, but Windows just wouldn't finish loading. It was
    only after I drastically disabled every single overclocking option in
    the BIOS (all set on by default; thanks ASUS) /and/ rate-limited the
    CPU to 5400MHz (from stock 5500MHz) that I got my PC back. The only
    way I can tell it's running slower is if I look at the clock-rates; functionally it's the same performance. But my 'safe choice' no longer
    seems so safe.

    So I'm glad that this story is getting more attention. Hell, maybe
    it'll even lead to a full recall of the CPU and I can get a new one
    from Intel for free (it wouldn't be the first time; Intel replaced the
    CPU for anyone who had an original Pentium CPU with the FDIV bug). I
    wouldn't turn my nose up at that either!

    But come time for me to build my next PC, I'm not sure that Intel will
    be my 'safe' and 'problem free' choice anymore.



    * read some of the articles here: https://www.pcgamesn.com/intel/cpu-instability-games-unreal-engine https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-core-i9-cpu-crashes-returns/




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  • From Werner P.@werpu@gmx.at to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Sun Apr 14 07:26:46 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    Am 13.04.24 um 21:06 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
    In general, I've had good luck with Intel chips anyway. I really like
    AMD CPUs - they're often the better design - but there have been compatibility issues and Intel was the 'safe' choice. Sure, it might
    not have been the 'best' or 'fastest', but a 13900K was still 'fast
    enough' and - I thought - was more likely to be problem free.

    Have been running on AMD CPUs now since the first Ryzen Gen... what compatibility issues?
    AMD really pulled it off with the ryzen design and left Intel in the dust!
    (not speedwise though, but technically)

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  • From Spalls Hurgenson@spallshurgenson@gmail.com to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Sun Apr 14 11:03:35 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 07:26:46 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:

    Am 13.04.24 um 21:06 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
    In general, I've had good luck with Intel chips anyway. I really like
    AMD CPUs - they're often the better design - but there have been
    compatibility issues and Intel was the 'safe' choice. Sure, it might
    not have been the 'best' or 'fastest', but a 13900K was still 'fast
    enough' and - I thought - was more likely to be problem free.

    Have been running on AMD CPUs now since the first Ryzen Gen... what >compatibility issues?
    AMD really pulled it off with the ryzen design and left Intel in the dust! >(not speedwise though, but technically)

    There have been a number over the years, although I mostly recall them
    from the days of XP and Athlon. They were rarely show-stopper bugs,
    but there were a number of games where you'd need to download a patch
    to run a game on AMD, or to get maximum performance. But even more
    recently, AMD CPUs have needed patches (for instance, a year back
    there was a patch for people running AMD CPUs on Windows 11 because
    the L3 cache wasn't being properly utilized, reducing overall speed.
    Cyberpunk 2077 also had issues on some AMD Ryzens on launch).

    Again, that's not to say that Intel CPUs were necessarily any better
    or didn't need specific patches, but it seemed to happen less often
    (probably because Intel had much greater marketshare, so developers
    tested more thoroughly against Intel CPUs, fixing problems before the
    software was released). Rarely (probably never?) did having an AMD CPU
    prevent you from running any software. But all this added an
    impression - at least to me - of Intel CPUs being the more
    'worry-free' option; the one that wouldn't require me to have to
    fiddle with compatibility shims or extra patches just to get it
    running properly on my software.



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  • From Dimensional Traveler@dtravel@sonic.net to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Sun Apr 14 10:19:20 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    On 4/14/2024 8:03 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 07:26:46 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:

    Am 13.04.24 um 21:06 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
    In general, I've had good luck with Intel chips anyway. I really like
    AMD CPUs - they're often the better design - but there have been
    compatibility issues and Intel was the 'safe' choice. Sure, it might
    not have been the 'best' or 'fastest', but a 13900K was still 'fast
    enough' and - I thought - was more likely to be problem free.

    Have been running on AMD CPUs now since the first Ryzen Gen... what
    compatibility issues?
    AMD really pulled it off with the ryzen design and left Intel in the dust! >> (not speedwise though, but technically)

    There have been a number over the years, although I mostly recall them
    from the days of XP and Athlon. They were rarely show-stopper bugs,
    but there were a number of games where you'd need to download a patch
    to run a game on AMD, or to get maximum performance. But even more
    recently, AMD CPUs have needed patches (for instance, a year back
    there was a patch for people running AMD CPUs on Windows 11 because
    the L3 cache wasn't being properly utilized, reducing overall speed. Cyberpunk 2077 also had issues on some AMD Ryzens on launch).

    Again, that's not to say that Intel CPUs were necessarily any better
    or didn't need specific patches, but it seemed to happen less often
    (probably because Intel had much greater marketshare, so developers
    tested more thoroughly against Intel CPUs, fixing problems before the software was released). Rarely (probably never?) did having an AMD CPU prevent you from running any software. But all this added an
    impression - at least to me - of Intel CPUs being the more
    'worry-free' option; the one that wouldn't require me to have to
    fiddle with compatibility shims or extra patches just to get it
    running properly on my software.

    Intel being the default baseline. AMD being the Linux of CPUs. :)
    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

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  • From Werner P.@werpu@gmx.at to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Sun Apr 14 20:28:53 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    The impression is basically not feasible anymore, given that AMD Ryzen
    is the baseline of the consoles.

    I cannot remember any game where I had to wait for a patch.
    Certain emulators were using out of date obskure intel instructions to
    gain a performance boost though, which intel itself pulled in later
    revisions of their processors for security reasons but even that was
    optional. Newest SSE versions or lack thereof were I think an issue in
    the early Ryzen versions but again optional.


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  • From Werner P.@werpu@gmx.at to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Mon Apr 15 11:15:28 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    Am 14.04.24 um 20:28 schrieb Werner P.:
    The impression is basically not feasible anymore, given that AMD Ryzen
    is the baseline of the consoles.

    I cannot remember any game where I had to wait for a patch.
    Certain emulators were using out of date obskure intel instructions to
    gain a performance boost though, which intel itself pulled in later revisions of their processors for security reasons but even that was optional. Newest SSE versions or lack thereof were I think an issue in
    the early Ryzen versions but again optional.


    What sometimes happened in the early Ryzen revisions was that due to the chiplet architecture some games were performing slightly worse due to
    threads shifting between the chiplets, nothing serious though, but even
    that has been fixed with some scheduler patches to my knowledge on the
    other hand Intel got a ton of performance loss in the same area thanks
    to security fixes they were forced to do. (not that AMD is not hit occasionally also by security issues they have to fix)
    Overall the experience is pretty much the same. The main difference is,
    if you buy an AMD board you have to be somewhat nitpicky about the ram
    you buy, usually board makers post compatibility lists!
    Intel on the other hand in this area is plug and play to my knowledge.
    So whatever you buy either choice is fine by now. I am on AMD and wont
    upgrade in the near future, but I probably will stick with AMD given I
    like their processors more due to the chiplet design and excellent power consumption profilke!

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  • From rridge@rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Tue Apr 16 17:26:45 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    Werner P. <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
    What sometimes happened in the early Ryzen revisions was that due to the >chiplet architecture some games were performing slightly worse due to >threads shifting between the chiplets, nothing serious though, but even
    that has been fixed with some scheduler patches to my knowledge on the
    other hand Intel got a ton of performance loss in the same area thanks
    to security fixes they were forced to do. (not that AMD is not hit >occasionally also by security issues they have to fix)

    The two chiplet problem with games is fundamental to the design and
    hasn't been fixed. The two chiplet AMD Ryzen 9 59xx and 79xx CPUs all
    perform significantly worse in games compared to the much cheaper Ryzen
    7 single chiplet 5800X3D and 7800X3D CPUs of the same generation.

    Right now that means the 7800X3D is the fastest all around gaming CPU
    money can buy. Paying more for a 7950X or 7950X3D will actually get
    you worse performance in many games.

    As for general compatibility there's no reason to prefer an Intel CPU
    over an AMD one. When I put together a new computer a year ago I went
    with Intel because DDR4 memory made the entire package a better deal, but
    with prices the way they are now I'd problaby go for AMD. It's important
    to remember that Intel is copying AMD as much as the other way around.
    Intel is just starting to get into multi-chiplet CPUs, and while its
    now over two decades old, the entire 64-bit x86 architecture that modern
    x86 CPUs all use was designed by AMD, not Intel.
    --
    l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
    [oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
    -()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
    db //
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  • From Anssi Saari@anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Fri Apr 19 10:51:22 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) writes:

    The two chiplet problem with games is fundamental to the design and
    hasn't been fixed. The two chiplet AMD Ryzen 9 59xx and 79xx CPUs all perform significantly worse in games compared to the much cheaper Ryzen
    7 single chiplet 5800X3D and 7800X3D CPUs of the same generation.

    Right now that means the 7800X3D is the fastest all around gaming CPU
    money can buy. Paying more for a 7950X or 7950X3D will actually get
    you worse performance in many games.

    These seem to be a "citation needed" type of claims. What do you base
    these on? With a quick look, tomshardware and anandtech don't seem to
    agree.
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  • From rridge@rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Fri Apr 19 21:08:16 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) writes:
    Right now that means the 7800X3D is the fastest all around gaming CPU
    money can buy. Paying more for a 7950X or 7950X3D will actually get
    you worse performance in many games.

    Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
    These seem to be a "citation needed" type of claims. What do you base
    these on? With a quick look, tomshardware and anandtech don't seem to
    agree.

    Should've been too hard to find this statement in Tom's Hardware's
    CPU Rankings:

    The $449 Ryzen 7 7800X3D is now the fastest gaming chip money
    can buy.

    https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cpu-hierarchy,4312.html

    In AnandTech's corresponding "Best CPUs for Gaming" article the 7800X3D is shown tied with the 7950X3D in the one single game the article actually provides 7800X3D gaming benchmarks for. Otherwise they don't seem to
    compare the gaming performance of the two CPUs and don't actually say
    which CPU they think performs better overall in games.

    Tom's Hardware's "Gaming CPU Benmkarks Ranking 2024" chart makes it
    clear though which they think is the fastest gaming CPU, putting the
    7800X3D right at the top.
    --
    l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
    [oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
    -()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
    db //
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  • From Rin Stowleigh@rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Sun Apr 21 07:09:49 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 07:26:46 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:

    Have been running on AMD CPUs now since the first Ryzen Gen... what >compatibility issues?
    AMD really pulled it off with the ryzen design and left Intel in the dust! >(not speedwise though, but technically)

    I have to stick with Intel, because in the music production world we
    are often connecting expensive devices to the computer and there are
    known compatibility issues between AMD processors and certain popular
    products, certain audio interfaces like UAD Apollo product line comes
    to mind.

    In my case I never buy a PC just to run DAW software -- when I retire
    a gaming system, it becomes my new music studio PC, where it gets
    another 5-7 years of life (the hardware demands of DAW software are
    typically lower than gaming PCs).

    Most of these software and hardware vendors in the music business seem
    to QA their products against Intel for their PC compatibility, so even
    if AMD is just as compatible and maybe even better bang for the buck
    for gaming specific needs, my purchases are based on gaming need in
    the short term and music studio use in the long run and that makes AMD
    a risky purchase.
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  • From Anssi Saari@anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Tue Apr 23 12:06:03 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) writes:

    rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) writes:
    Right now that means the 7800X3D is the fastest all around gaming CPU
    money can buy. Paying more for a 7950X or 7950X3D will actually get
    you worse performance in many games.

    Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
    These seem to be a "citation needed" type of claims. What do you base
    these on? With a quick look, tomshardware and anandtech don't seem to >>agree.

    Should've been too hard to find this statement in Tom's Hardware's
    CPU Rankings:

    Well, to be exact, I really wanted you to support your snipped claim, specifically this:

    "The two chiplet AMD Ryzen 9 59xx and 79xx CPUs all perform
    significantly worse in games compared to the much cheaper Ryzen 7 single chiplet 5800X3D and 7800X3D CPUs of the same generation."

    The performance seems slightly lower but that isn't significantly worse.
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  • From rridge@rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action on Tue Apr 23 16:22:17 2024
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

    Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
    Well, to be exact, I really wanted you to support your snipped claim, >specifically this:

    Because it would've been too hard for you to specifically quote the part
    of my article you "really" wanted to me to provide "support" for.

    The performance seems slightly lower but that isn't significantly worse.

    Any difference more than margin of error is significant. While the 2.3% difference in 1080p performance shown in the Tom's Hardware isn't huge,
    it's based on geometric mean of tests made on a number of different games. (Unlike the Anandtech article which only provides comparitive tests of
    a single game!) That means some of the games performed even worse on
    the more expensive processor.

    Sure, that also means some games will probably perform better on the
    7950X3D, and if you're playing those games exclusively than maybe its
    worth paying the extra money for. Certainly if you're a heavy user
    of heavily multithreaded applications, like video editing for example,
    than the 7950X3D can be a good choice. (Although the 7950X would be a
    better choice if that's all you're doing.)

    The problem is that 7950X3D is marketed as a "gaming processor" and
    costs over 50% more than the 7800X3D. It should completely dominate the cheaper processor in games. Even if you want to believe the difference
    in performance isn't significant, and they perform the same, that still
    makes the 7950X3D an embarrasment.

    The bottom line here is that despite the 7950X3D being the better
    processor on paper, more cache, higher boost clocks and twice the CPU
    cores, that doesn't translate into better performance in games. The
    penalities caused by the two chiplet design end up being a bigger factor.

    So in other words, and not just my words, right now the AMD Ryzen 7
    7800X3D is "the fastest gaming chip money can buy."
    --
    l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
    [oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
    -()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
    db //
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