• BIND Masters and slaves

    From Brett Delmage@Brett@BrettDelmage.ca to bind-users on Sun Jun 14 18:38:38 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    I just read
    GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology

    at https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/1722223/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology

    The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
    still refers to masters and slaves.

    Is this ARM the most recent version?

    Are there any discussions about changing terms?

    Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and "slave"
    are the established terms, I believe?

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  • From =?utf-8?B?Vmluw61jaXVzIEZlcnLDo28=?=@ferrao@versatushpc.com.br to Brett Delmage on Sun Jun 14 22:53:13 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

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  • From Brett Delmage@Brett@BrettDelmage.ca to =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Vin=EDcius_Ferr=E3o?= on Sun Jun 14 19:20:33 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    --8323328-511915355-1592176833=:29360
    Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

    On Sun, 14 Jun 2020, Vinícius Ferrăo wrote:

    ISC had a statement about it a time ago: https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248

    Thanks. I vaguely recalled something but my search didn't turn
    this up.

    --8323328-511915355-1592176833=:29360--
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  • From Nis Wechselberg@enbewe@enbewe.de to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 08:29:57 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    Totally not BIND related, but in BDSM "top" and "bottom" are quite
    widely used. So there is a non-slavery-related nomenclature there as well.


    Am 15.06.20 um 00:53 schrieb VinĂ­cius FerrĂŁo via bind-users:
    ISC had a statement about it a time ago: https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248

    You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of
    terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of
    changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

    For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master
    and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will
    not solve the issue.

    And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts and lines of code.

    Regards,

    On 14 Jun 2020, at 19:38, Brett Delmage <Brett@BrettDelmage.ca
    <mailto:Brett@BrettDelmage.ca>> wrote:

    I just read
    GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology >>
    at
    https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/1722223/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology

    The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
    https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
    still refers to masters and slaves.

    Is this ARM the most recent version?

    Are there any discussions about changing terms?

    Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and
    "slave" are the established terms, I believe?

    _______________________________________________
    Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to
    unsubscribe from this list

    ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
    subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more
    information.


    bind-users mailing list
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    https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users


    _______________________________________________
    Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

    ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


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  • From =?utf-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?=@ondrej@isc.org to Brett Delmage on Mon Jun 15 09:59:29 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind


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    charset=utf-8

    Hi Brett,

    BIND 9 already uses primary/secondary as keywords and we are actively
    working on updating BIND 9 to match the canon defined in RFC 8499.

    You can find the latest documentation from the BIND 9 development branch
    here: https://bind9.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

    Cheers,
    Ondrej
    --
    Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD
    ondrej@isc.org

    On 15 Jun 2020, at 00:38, Brett Delmage <Brett@BrettDelmage.ca> wrote:
    =20
    I just read
    GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral =
    Terminology
    =20
    at =
    https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/1722223/github-android-pyth= on-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology
    =20
    The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
    still refers to masters and slaves.
    =20
    Is this ARM the most recent version?
    =20
    Are there any discussions about changing terms?
    =20
    Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and =
    "slave" are the established terms, I believe?
    =20
    _______________________________________________
    Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to =
    unsubscribe from this list
    =20
    ISC funds the development of this software with paid support =
    subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more = information.
    =20
    =20
    bind-users mailing list
    bind-users@lists.isc.org
    https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users


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  • From Tony Finch@dot@dotat.at to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 15:38:08 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

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    Vin=C3=ADcius Ferr=C3=A3o via bind-users <bind-users@lists.isc.org> wrote:

    But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
    hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn=E2=80=99t go any further =
    due to
    political correctness.

    "Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people, especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for granted.

    In any case, master/slave is bad terminology because it is actively
    misleading. It suggests that zone transfers to downstream servers are
    under the control of the upstream servers, which is definitely not the
    case. And it suggests a binary categorization of servers which is also
    wrong, because zone transfers often form a multi-level cascade between
    servers that perform several different functions. It's better to talk
    about update servers, signing servers, zone transfer servers, public or
    private or stealth authoritative servers. For zone transfers it's better
    to talk about which servers are upstream and downstream of each other in
    the distribution network.

    You should find that your writing is easier to understand, both for
    experts and non-experts, if you don't use the bad old terminology.

    Tony.
    --=20
    f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/
    Plymouth: Cyclonic 3 to 5. Mainly slight. Thundery showers. Good, occasiona= lly
    poor.
    --1870870841-65991565-1592231888=:22139--
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Ben Lavender@ben@airnet.org.uk to Tony Finch on Mon Jun 15 16:09:04 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    The terminology is fairly misleading, as in the slave is not doing the
    work on-behalf of or instruction of the the master. But there is ways
    for the master to influence the slaves; such as "allow-transfer".

    I don't see the big issue with making a terminology change in this case.

    On 15/06/2020 15:38, Tony Finch wrote:
    VinĂ­cius FerrĂŁo via bind-users <bind-users@lists.isc.org> wrote:
    But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
    hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to
    political correctness.
    "Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people, especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for granted.

    In any case, master/slave is bad terminology because it is actively misleading. It suggests that zone transfers to downstream servers are
    under the control of the upstream servers, which is definitely not the
    case. And it suggests a binary categorization of servers which is also
    wrong, because zone transfers often form a multi-level cascade between servers that perform several different functions. It's better to talk
    about update servers, signing servers, zone transfer servers, public or private or stealth authoritative servers. For zone transfers it's better
    to talk about which servers are upstream and downstream of each other in
    the distribution network.

    You should find that your writing is easier to understand, both for
    experts and non-experts, if you don't use the bad old terminology.

    Tony.

    _______________________________________________
    Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

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    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Michael De Roover@isc@nixmagic.com to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 19:32:17 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7E010A81D7454D2E19491892
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    I concur with this. I'm still fairly new to BIND and DNS myself. I
    maintain 7 name servers (3 internal, 4 external) and master does signify
    to me that this is the server in control of the zone files for the other
    ones in that pool. The slaves are pretty much that to me, they take the
    zone files and apply them while not having any further control over the
    zone files themselves. In my external name servers it also goes paired
    with authority - slave authorities that are authoritative to the
    internet but slaves in that they replicate from an internal master. This
    is not something you'd see in real slavery, signifying that this is mere technical jargon. Is it a heavy term? Yes. Should we support "black
    lives matter" and condemn the completely egregious actions committed by
    the police officers towards George Floyd? Absolutely, and I hope that
    the former officers get convicted for not just manslaughter but murder,
    and that more protests will emerge (minus the plundering which was the
    case here in Brussels).

    However, changing a name and going for censorship of technical jargon
    which will only confuse newcomers who will now face duplicate
    nomenclature changes NOTHING. George Floyd wouldn't have been able to
    survive just because we give things a different name. Instead we'd
    border closer to censorship which we had during the wars, and still do
    in heavily oppressed countries like North Korea, China etc. It's ironic
    that what these people are pushing for in practice is exactly the thing
    they seemingly seek to eradicate.

    There is another relevant case where GitHub will apparently replace
    master branches in all their repositories. I'm really glad to be
    unaffected with my Gitea server. I may have to adjust my repository
    mirrors from GitHub however. For GitHub users, that change will likely
    break every one of their repositories that defaults to master and
    require adjustments from GitHub users of which many might not even know
    what branches are. That's the real impact of that and I find it deeply worrying.

    I do not want such a thing to happen to BIND just to please some people
    with large followings on Twitter who other than that, often have no affiliation with the project whatsoever.

    On 6/15/20 12:53 AM, VinĂ­cius FerrĂŁo via bind-users wrote:
    ISC had a statement about it a time ago: https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248

    You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of
    terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of
    changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

    For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master
    and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear
    will not solve the issue.

    And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts and lines of code.

    --
    Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
    Michael De Roover

    --------------7E010A81D7454D2E19491892
    Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body>
    <p>I concur with this. I'm still fairly new to BIND and DNS myself.
    I maintain 7 name servers (3 internal, 4 external) and master does
    signify to me that this is the server in control of the zone files
    for the other ones in that pool. The slaves are pretty much that
    to me, they take the zone files and apply them while not having
    any further control over the zone files themselves. In my external
    name servers it also goes paired with authority - slave
    authorities that are authoritative to the internet but slaves in
    that they replicate from an internal master. This is not something
    you'd see in real slavery, signifying that this is mere technical
    jargon. Is it a heavy term? Yes. Should we support "black lives
    matter" and condemn the completely egregious actions committed by
    the police officers towards George Floyd? Absolutely, and I hope
    that the former officers get convicted for not just manslaughter
    but murder, and that more protests will emerge (minus the
    plundering which was the case here in Brussels).</p>
    <p>However, changing a name and going for censorship of technical
    jargon which will only confuse newcomers who will now face
    duplicate nomenclature changes NOTHING. George Floyd wouldn't have
    been able to survive just because we give things a different name.
    Instead we'd border closer to censorship which we had during the
    wars, and still do in heavily oppressed countries like North
    Korea, China etc. It's ironic that what these people are pushing
    for in practice is exactly the thing they seemingly seek to
    eradicate.</p>
    <p>There is another relevant case where GitHub will apparently
    replace master branches in all their repositories. I'm really glad
    to be unaffected with my Gitea server. I may have to adjust my
    repository mirrors from GitHub however. For GitHub users, that
    change will likely break every one of their repositories that
    defaults to master and require adjustments from GitHub users of
    which many might not even know what branches are. That's the real
    impact of that and I find it deeply worrying.</p>
    <p>I do not want such a thing to happen to BIND just to please some
    people with large followings on Twitter who other than that, often
    have no affiliation with the project whatsoever.<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/15/20 12:53 AM, VinĂ­cius FerrĂŁo
    via bind-users wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
    cite="mid:614285A0-CBD4-41AA-BD84-B0F0C3C24626@versatushpc.com.br">
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    <div class="">
    <div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
    class="">ISC had a statement about it a time ago: <a
    href="https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248"
    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248</a></div>
    </div>
    <div class=""><br class="">
    </div>
    <div class="">You can now call primary and secondary zones. But
    the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
    hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further
    due to political correctness.</div>
    <div class=""><br class="">
    </div>
    <div class="">For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of
    terms, software and documentation just because some people can’t
    handle terms like master and slave. Slavery still exists today
    and making the word disappear will not solve the issue.</div>
    <div class=""><br class="">
    </div>
    <div class="">And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a
    waste of time, efforts and lines of code.</div>
    <div class=""><br class="">
    </div>
    </blockquote>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
    Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,<br>
    Michael De Roover</div>
    </body>
    </html>

    --------------7E010A81D7454D2E19491892--
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Brett Delmage@Brett@BrettDelmage.ca to bind-users@lists.isc.org on Mon Jun 15 15:07:50 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs and
    code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going to communicate this to people?

    How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just
    stop trying?


    Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over
    "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's nicely
    terse.

    https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t




    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Michael De Roover@isc@nixmagic.com to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 21:13:16 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    Completely aside from the topic at hand, I often like to think that
    after a few years I mastered something. System administration,
    electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for several
    years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The first profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general.
    Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be
    experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how deep we
    want it to go I guess.

    Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it for
    shits and giggles :D

    On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
    After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs
    and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going
    to communicate this to people?

    How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just
    stop trying?


    Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over
    "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's
    nicely terse.

    https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t

    --
    Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
    Michael De Roover
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mauricio Tavares@raubvogel@gmail.com to Tony Finch on Mon Jun 15 15:17:19 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:38 AM Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:

    VinĂ­cius FerrĂŁo via bind-users <bind-users@lists.isc.org> wrote:

    But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
    hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

    "Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people, especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for granted.

    Being considerate to others should not be associated with politics,
    something the term "political correctness" is.
    There is a term in Africa for those who use "especially people who do
    not have many of the advantages we might take for granted" in their
    sentences; it is not a particularly positive term.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Gregory Sloop@gregs@sloop.net to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 12:33:30 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    ------------06715A24319CDDA5B
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    This whole discussion seems so misguided.
    The TLDR; version, at least for me is;
    Does it really cost you that much to use language that's polite and kind to=
    those around you, and change that language to live up to those ideals when=
    you can?

    Sure you _have the right_ to run down the street and yell impolite/angry/my= soginistic epithets and racial insults at those around you.=20

    But rather than focusing on _your rights_, how about spending a few minutes=
    considering how you'd feel if people did equally insensitive things to you=
    r mom, you sister, your wife, or your best friend.

    When viewed from that perspective, the "outrage" at not using/changing term=
    s like master/slave in BIND seem, at least to my mind, kind of hyperbolic.

    You can call it politically correct, but I generally like to call it "being=
    nice" or "polite" or "kind."=20
    When did it suddenly become so wrong to be gentle, kind and caring? [That's=
    a rhetorical question, so no need to "answer" it.]

    The BIND and DHCP lists have historically been incredible lists for really = polite and helpful people over the many years I've subscribed and participa= ted. IME, these lists have been far superior to nearly any other lists I've=
    been a part of. Super helpful. Really nice people> Super respectful. Total=
    ly awesome. I'm nearly always chuffed to see the behavior here.

    I hope that continues.


    Completely aside from the topic at hand, I often like to think that=20 after a few years I mastered something. System administration,=20 electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for several=
    =20
    years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The first=
    =20
    profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general.=
    =20
    Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be=20 experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite=20 interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how deep =
    we
    want it to go I guess.

    Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it for=
    =20
    shits and giggles :D

    On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
    After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs=20
    and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going=20
    to communicate this to people?

    How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just=
    =20
    stop trying?


    Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the=20
    "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over=20
    "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's=20
    nicely terse.

    https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=3Dt
    ------------06715A24319CDDA5B
    Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <html><head><title>Re: BIND Masters and slaves</title>
    <meta charset=3D"utf-8" http-equiv=3D"X-UA-Compatible" content=3D"IE=3D9; I= E=3D8; IE=3D7; IE=3DEDGE" />
    </head>
    <body>
    <span style=3D" font-family:'Courier New'; font-size: 9pt;">This whole disc= ussion seems so misguided.<br>
    The TLDR; version, at least for me is;<br>
    Does it really cost you that much to use language that's polite and kind to=
    those around you, and change that language to live up to those ideals when=
    you can?<br>

    Sure you _have the right_ to run down the street and yell impolite/angry/my= soginistic epithets and racial insults at those around you.<br>

    But rather than focusing on _your rights_, how about spending a few minutes=
    considering how you'd feel if people did equally insensitive things to you=
    r mom, you sister, your wife, or your best friend.<br>

    When viewed from that perspective, the "outrage" at not using/changing term=
    s like master/slave in BIND seem, at least to my mind, kind of hyperbolic.<=


    You can call it politically correct, but I generally like to call it "being=
    nice" or "polite" or "kind."<br>
    When did it suddenly become so wrong to be gentle, kind and caring? [That's=
    a rhetorical question, so no need to "answer" it.]<br>

    The BIND and DHCP lists have historically been incredible lists for really = polite and helpful people over the many years I've subscribed and participa= ted. IME, these lists have been far superior to nearly any other lists I've=
    been a part of. Super helpful. Really nice people&gt; Super respectful. To= tally awesome. I'm nearly always chuffed to see the behavior here.<br>

    I hope that continues.<br>


    <span style=3D" color: #800000;"><b>MDR&gt; Completely aside from the topic=
    at hand, I often like to think that<br>
    MDR&gt; after a few years I mastered something. System administration,<br> MDR&gt; electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for sever= al<br>
    MDR&gt; years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The fir= st<br>
    MDR&gt; profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general= .<br>
    MDR&gt; Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be<br> MDR&gt; experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite=

    MDR&gt; interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how de=
    ep we<br>
    MDR&gt; want it to go I guess.<br>

    MDR&gt; Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it fo= r<br>
    MDR&gt; shits and giggles :D<br>

    MDR&gt; On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:<br>
    &gt;&gt; After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the d= ocs<br>
    &gt;&gt; and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I go= ing<br>
    &gt;&gt; to communicate this to people?<br>

    &gt;&gt; How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I = just<br>
    &gt;&gt; stop trying?<br>


    &gt;&gt; Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server = the<br>
    &gt;&gt; "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over<b=

    &gt;&gt; "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's<b=

    &gt;&gt; nicely terse.<br>

    </b></span></span><a style=3D" font-family:'courier new'; font-size: 9pt;" = href=3D"https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=3Dt">&gt;&gt; https://www= .thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=3Dt</a><br>
    </body></html>
    ------------06715A24319CDDA5B--

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Ted Hatfield@ted@io-tx.com to Mauricio Tavares on Mon Jun 15 14:34:42 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    On Mon, 15 Jun 2020, Mauricio Tavares wrote:

    On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:38 AM Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:

    Vin?cius Ferr?o via bind-users <bind-users@lists.isc.org> wrote:

    But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
    hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn?t go any further due to
    political correctness.

    "Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
    especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for >> granted.


    Being considerate to others should not be associated with politics,
    something the term "political correctness" is.

    There is a term in Africa for those who use "especially people who do
    not have many of the advantages we might take for granted" in their sentences; it is not a particularly positive term.

    Regardless of whether you consider this a political issue or not the terminology master/slave has a poor connotation for large swathes of the general public.

    In the time we live in the change from master/slave to primary/secondary
    is both justified and appropriate.

    Although nobody likes to change, this is a fairly minor issue and not deserving of complaint.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Parkin, Richard (R.)@rparki21@ford.com to bind-users@lists.isc.org on Mon Jun 15 19:35:23 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

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    --_000_EF29193D5614455D91D4F1C764E8BFFFcontosocom_--
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From G.W. Haywood@bind@jubileegroup.co.uk to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 20:43:28 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    Hi there,

    On Mon, 15 Jun 2020, bind-users-request@lists.isc.org wrote - and wrote, and wrote:

    ... [all sniped] ...

    Please guys[1], stop it.

    --

    73,
    Ged.
    [1] The masculine embraces the feminine where the context permits.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Michael De Roover@isc@nixmagic.com to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 21:49:26 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2FD3384E38CA9ADA309C0139
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    People call me weeb and say the word autistic often, which are because..
    well, I am a weeb (as in I like anime) and some conversations on the
    internet are just autistic. I have Asperger's Syndrome and am a weeb
    myself. I am not offended by either, short of people inappropriately
    calling me so (not very often!). It seems that the same applies from
    e.g. the black community.

    I can only talk about my own "diseases" and the impact upon me. I have
    been in healthcare for about a decade for the Asperger's Syndrome part
    which I will focus on. It has no relation the black community whatsoever
    but is similarly an underrepresented and misrepresented community. It is
    also a minority. With that aside, I seek no sympathy whatsoever on any
    of that. I got out of those bullshit institutions out of willpower, they sought to repress it all, taking out of my hands any task that would
    require any responsibility whatsoever. I actively pushed against all of
    that for all that time because I knew that I wouldn't want to stay in
    those places forever, and instead be a fully functional member of
    society. And here I am. Living on my own for 3 years so far, doing just
    fine. I do not consider Asperger's Syndrome a disease at this point,
    rather a cognitive boost since usually AS means that there is a
    significant boost in logic ability, at the cost of social ability.
    Please keep that in mind when judging my messages, but other than that I couldn't care less about my "disease".

    What I'm trying to say through similar advocating to ban "bad words"
    like autism that I've experienced is that most likely the community
    these Twitter people seek to advocate for.. usually don't care. Case in
    point, yours truly. You can call me autistic and I'd really just say -
    more power to you and I guess I am on the internet after all where
    nobody gives a damn. And more power to the internet for being that way.

    Let's solve actual problems such as waiting lists for autists in their
    youth from being allowed to professional healthcare institutions where
    they can learn to cope with it. Myself, I had to wait for several years multiple times because government just keeps on cutting the healthcare
    budget which hurts our sector the most, despite promising the exact
    opposite during elections. Shorten the waiting lists! Oh crap the budget
    is cut again and waiting lists have to be extended yet again. Thank you
    dear politician who did the same crap all over again!

    Fight for real causes, not what I can only describe as censorship which doesn't help anyone.

    On 6/15/20 9:33 PM, Gregory Sloop wrote:
    Re: BIND Masters and slaves This whole discussion seems so misguided.
    The TLDR; version, at least for me is;
    Does it really cost you that much to use language that's polite and
    kind to those around you, and change that language to live up to those ideals when you can?

    Sure you _have the right_ to run down the street and yell impolite/angry/mysoginistic epithets and racial insults at those
    around you.

    But rather than focusing on _your rights_, how about spending a few
    minutes considering how you'd feel if people did equally insensitive
    things to your mom, you sister, your wife, or your best friend.

    When viewed from that perspective, the "outrage" at not using/changing
    terms like master/slave in BIND seem, at least to my mind, kind of hyperbolic.

    You can call it politically correct, but I generally like to call it
    "being nice" or "polite" or "kind."
    When did it suddenly become so wrong to be gentle, kind and caring?
    [That's a rhetorical question, so no need to "answer" it.]

    The BIND and DHCP lists have historically been incredible lists for
    really polite and helpful people over the many years I've subscribed
    and participated. IME, these lists have been far superior to nearly
    any other lists I've been a part of. Super helpful. Really nice
    people> Super respectful. Totally awesome. I'm nearly always chuffed
    to see the behavior here.

    I hope that continues.


    *MDR> Completely aside from the topic at hand, I often like to think that
    after a few years I mastered something. System administration, electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for several years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The first profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general. Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how
    deep we
    want it to go I guess.

    Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it for shits and giggles :D

    On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
    After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs
    and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going
    to communicate this to people?

    How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just
    stop trying?


    Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the
    "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over
    "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's
    nicely terse.

    https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t <https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t>

    _______________________________________________
    Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

    ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


    bind-users mailing list
    bind-users@lists.isc.org
    https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
    --
    Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
    Michael De Roover

    --------------2FD3384E38CA9ADA309C0139
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    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
    charset=windows-1252">
    </head>
    <body>
    <p>People call me weeb and say the word autistic often, which are
    because.. well, I am a weeb (as in I like anime) and some
    conversations on the internet are just autistic. I have Asperger's
    Syndrome and am a weeb myself. I am not offended by either, short
    of people inappropriately calling me so (not very often!). It
    seems that the same applies from e.g. the black community.</p>
    <p>I can only talk about my own "diseases" and the impact upon me. I
    have been in healthcare for about a decade for the Asperger's
    Syndrome part which I will focus on. It has no relation the black
    community whatsoever but is similarly an underrepresented and
    misrepresented community. It is also a minority. With that aside,
    I seek no sympathy whatsoever on any of that. I got out of those
    bullshit institutions out of willpower, they sought to repress it
    all, taking out of my hands any task that would require any
    responsibility whatsoever. I actively pushed against all of that
    for all that time because I knew that I wouldn't want to stay in
    those places forever, and instead be a fully functional member of
    society. And here I am. Living on my own for 3 years so far, doing
    just fine. I do not consider Asperger's Syndrome a disease at this
    point, rather a cognitive boost since usually AS means that there
    is a significant boost in logic ability, at the cost of social
    ability. Please keep that in mind when judging my messages, but
    other than that I couldn't care less about my "disease".</p>
    <p>What I'm trying to say through similar advocating to ban "bad
    words" like autism that I've experienced is that most likely the
    community these Twitter people seek to advocate for.. usually
    don't care. Case in point, yours truly. You can call me autistic
    and I'd really just say - more power to you and I guess I am on
    the internet after all where nobody gives a damn. And more power
    to the internet for being that way.</p>
    <p>Let's solve actual problems such as waiting lists for autists in
    their youth from being allowed to professional healthcare
    institutions where they can learn to cope with it. Myself, I had
    to wait for several years multiple times because government just
    keeps on cutting the healthcare budget which hurts our sector the
    most, despite promising the exact opposite during elections.
    Shorten the waiting lists! Oh crap the budget is cut again and
    waiting lists have to be extended yet again. Thank you dear
    politician who did the same crap all over again!</p>
    <p>Fight for real causes, not what I can only describe as censorship
    which doesn't help anyone.<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/15/20 9:33 PM, Gregory Sloop
    wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
    cite="mid:702069773.20200615123330@sloop.net">
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
    charset=windows-1252">
    <title>Re: BIND Masters and slaves</title>
    <meta charset="utf-8" http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=9;
    IE=8; IE=7; IE=EDGE">
    <span style=" font-family:'Courier New'; font-size: 9pt;">This
    whole discussion seems so misguided.<br>
    The TLDR; version, at least for me is;<br>
    Does it really cost you that much to use language that's polite
    and kind to those around you, and change that language to live
    up to those ideals when you can?<br>
    <br>
    Sure you _have the right_ to run down the street and yell
    impolite/angry/mysoginistic epithets and racial insults at those
    around you.<br>
    <br>
    But rather than focusing on _your rights_, how about spending a
    few minutes considering how you'd feel if people did equally
    insensitive things to your mom, you sister, your wife, or your
    best friend.<br>
    <br>
    When viewed from that perspective, the "outrage" at not
    using/changing terms like master/slave in BIND seem, at least to
    my mind, kind of hyperbolic.<br>
    <br>
    You can call it politically correct, but I generally like to
    call it "being nice" or "polite" or "kind."<br>
    When did it suddenly become so wrong to be gentle, kind and
    caring? [That's a rhetorical question, so no need to "answer"
    it.]<br>
    <br>
    The BIND and DHCP lists have historically been incredible lists
    for really polite and helpful people over the many years I've
    subscribed and participated. IME, these lists have been far
    superior to nearly any other lists I've been a part of. Super
    helpful. Really nice people&gt; Super respectful. Totally
    awesome. I'm nearly always chuffed to see the behavior here.<br>
    <br>
    I hope that continues.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <span style=" color: #800000;"><b>MDR&gt; Completely aside from
    the topic at hand, I often like to think that<br>
    MDR&gt; after a few years I mastered something. System
    administration,<br>
    MDR&gt; electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my
    interest for several<br>
    MDR&gt; years already and got me to invest in it. It is
    never true. The first<br>
    MDR&gt; profession I pursued was system administration and
    Linux in general.<br>
    MDR&gt; Even today I still learn so much on the daily.
    Mastery? I may be<br>
    MDR&gt; experienced with Linux but mastery is still far
    ahead... It's quite<br>
    MDR&gt; interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What
    matters is how deep we<br>
    MDR&gt; want it to go I guess.<br>
    <br>
    MDR&gt; Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd
    just want it for<br>
    MDR&gt; shits and giggles :D<br>
    <br>
    MDR&gt; On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:<br>
    &gt;&gt; After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after
    slaving over the docs<br>
    &gt;&gt; and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have
    not) how am I going<br>
    &gt;&gt; to communicate this to people?<br>
    <br>
    &gt;&gt; How will I be able to master anything technical
    anymore? Should I just<br>
    &gt;&gt; stop trying?<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    &gt;&gt; Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type
    of DNS server the<br>
    &gt;&gt; "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an
    improvement over<br>
    &gt;&gt; "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative
    too, and it's<br>
    &gt;&gt; nicely terse.<br>
    <br>
    </b></span></span><a style=" font-family:'courier new';
    font-size: 9pt;"
    href="https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t"
    moz-do-not-send="true">&gt;&gt;
    https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t</a><br>
    <br>
    <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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  • From Victoria Risk@vicky@isc.org to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 13:12:41 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind


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    Wow. This topic has generated a lot of comment.=20

    We at ISC decided in 2017 to provide aliases for the master/slave =
    terminology in BIND so users who don=E2=80=99t wish to use those terms = don=E2=80=99t have to. It was not a burden to make this change in the =
    source code.=20

    Back when we made that initial change, I personally received several =
    private emails from actual BIND users who had felt triggered, offended =
    or otherwise distracted by the master/slave terminology, thanking us for = making this change. If even one or two users were upset by the old =
    terms, that is enough, and surely there are more users who were impacted =
    who didn=E2=80=99t speak up. =20

    We are now in the process of updating the terminology used in the BIND =
    ARM. These edits are in review now (along with many other updates to the = ARM.)

    At the time we made the initial change we didn=E2=80=99t have a process =
    for removing obsolete features so we just added an alias. Now that we =
    do(1), we would like to implement that process to gradually deprecate =
    the master/slave terms in favor of primary/secondary. We would =
    introduce a warning in 9.18, mark the old terms as deprecated in 9.20, =
    and remove them in 9.21 (development branch). So, the master/slave terms =
    will still work in the 9.20 Extended Support Version through its =
    lifetime, which ends at the end of 2025. This constitutes an 8-year =
    period for this change, which should be enough for even the most = change-averse among us to adapt.=20

    We are trying to ensure that this project is as inclusive as possible. =
    BIND and the DNS are complicated enough without adding additional =
    barriers. This seems like a reasonable accommodation. If this change =
    (over the next 6 years) will cause you a signficant problem, please say =
    so, but we don=E2=80=99t need to continue discussing whether it is worth =
    the effort any more, because we are already convinced it is worth the =
    effort on our part.=20

    Vicky Risk


    Victoria Risk
    Product Manager
    Internet Systems Consortium
    vicky@isc.org

    (1) https://kb.isc.org/docs/policy-for-removing-namedconf-options




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    <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Wow. = This topic has generated a lot of comment.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We at ISC decided in 2017 to provide =
    aliases for the master/slave terminology in BIND so users who don=E2=80=99=
    t wish to use those terms don=E2=80=99t have to. &nbsp;It was not a =
    burden to make this change in the source code.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Back when we made that = initial change, I personally received several private emails from actual =
    BIND users who had felt triggered, offended or otherwise distracted by =
    the master/slave terminology, thanking us for making this change. =
    &nbsp;If even one or two users were upset by the old terms, that is =
    enough, and surely there are more users who were impacted who didn=E2=80=99=
    t speak up. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">We are now in the process of updating the terminology used in =
    the BIND ARM. These edits are in review now (along with many other =
    updates to the ARM.)<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div = class=3D"">At the time we made the initial change we didn=E2=80=99t have =
    a process for removing obsolete features so we just added an alias. Now =
    that we do(1), we would like to implement that process to gradually =
    deprecate the master/slave terms in favor of primary/secondary. &nbsp;We = would introduce a warning in 9.18, mark the old terms as deprecated in =
    9.20, and remove them in 9.21 (development branch). So, the master/slave = terms will still work in the 9.20 Extended Support Version through its = lifetime, which ends at the end of 2025. This constitutes an 8-year =
    period for this change, which should be enough for even the most = change-averse among us to adapt.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We are trying to ensure that this =
    project is as inclusive as possible. BIND and the DNS are complicated =
    enough without adding additional barriers. This seems like a reasonable = accommodation. If this change (over the next 6 years) will cause you a = signficant problem, please say so, but we don=E2=80=99t need to continue = discussing whether it is worth the effort any more, because we are =
    already convinced it is worth the effort on our part.&nbsp;</div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Vicky Risk</div><div = class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
    <div style=3D"text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; word-wrap: =
    break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" = class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: = after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Victoria Risk</div><div = class=3D"">Product Manager</div><div class=3D"">Internet Systems = Consortium</div><div class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:vicky@isc.org" = class=3D"">vicky@isc.org</a></div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div></div>(1) <a = href=3D"https://kb.isc.org/docs/policy-for-removing-namedconf-options" = class=3D"">https://kb.isc.org/docs/policy-for-removing-namedconf-options</= a></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
    </div>
    <br class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

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  • From Victoria Risk@vicky@isc.org to bind-users on Mon Jun 15 13:35:03 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.protocols.dns.bind

    We have decided to put the list into general moderation because it feels like there is nothing substantive to add on this topic and it seems like we might benefit from a cooling off period before anyone gets more upset. We will push through any posts on any other topic (about BIND anyway), and will remove the moderation flag in a day or two.
    If anyone wants to object, they can email me directly, or just mail to the list and I will see it even if it isn’t posted.
    Vicky--- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113