On 10/20/25 04:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-20 09:32, c186282 wrote:
...
Hmmmm ... envision ... 2-lane rural road out
in the sticks. 18-wheeler tries to pass a few
vehicles, including my MC. But - ONCOMING
18-wheelers and the parallel truck does not
have the power to pull ahead. Look, see, look
again ... drop into 3rd and PUNCH the damned
thing to the max.
Power CAN save yer ass.
Yes...
My current car is a gasoline Corsa. My previous one was a diesel
Corsa. Basically the same nominal power. But the diesel accelerated
faster, because it had a turbo... I moaned a bit, but the garage says
to shut up, it is cheaper to maintain without a turbo.
Mechanically, true.
But it CAN be fatal to not have that extra power
when critically needed.
On 10/20/25 04:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-20 09:32, c186282 wrote:
...
Hmmmm ... envision ... 2-lane rural road out
in the sticks. 18-wheeler tries to pass a few
vehicles, including my MC. But - ONCOMING
18-wheelers and the parallel truck does not
have the power to pull ahead. Look, see, look
again ... drop into 3rd and PUNCH the damned
thing to the max.
Power CAN save yer ass.
Yes...
My current car is a gasoline Corsa. My previous one was a diesel
Corsa. Basically the same nominal power. But the diesel accelerated
faster, because it had a turbo... I moaned a bit, but the garage says
to shut up, it is cheaper to maintain without a turbo.
Mechanically, true.
But it CAN be fatal to not have that extra power
when critically needed.
BMW has to pay those fine German craftmens and skilled mechanics.of the
So yes it costs a lot more and reveals the extend of the decline
once proud American Dollar. In 1972 I paid about $1250 for the mc and
today you would have to come up with at least 10X as much lucre.
On 10/20/25 23:39, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 01:02:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
No GPS back then, just paper maps. And the one I had was not good enough >>> to know there was a dirt road in the route.
On a family vacation to Nova Scotia I found a likely looking road on the
map. It was about the same deal. NS is an island with all the towns on
the
shore and nothing in the middle. After the pavement ran out and the dirt
road became narrower and narrower my mother vetoed my trip planning
and we
turned around. No sense of adventure. There were plenty of dirt roads
where I grew up but she knew where they came out.
I still like paper maps ... but for travel
purposes you really need to get county-by-
county versions in order to find all the
hidden routes.
I still like paper maps ... but for travel purposes you really need
to get county-by-
county versions in order to find all the hidden routes.
Of course in California you don't even have to read/write/speak any
known language to get the commercial endorsement - just be one of
their precious more-equal foreigners
Quads and "golf carts" can now be considered to be "vehicles" in lots
of states - the popularity has exploded. They require a few basic
minimums, tail-lights, head-lights, but the other requirements are
rather few.
On 10/20/25 04:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-20 09:32, c186282 wrote:
...
Hmmmm ... envision ... 2-lane rural road out in the sticks.
18-wheeler tries to pass a few vehicles, including my MC. But -
ONCOMING 18-wheelers and the parallel truck does not have the
power to pull ahead. Look, see, look again ... drop into 3rd and
PUNCH the damned thing to the max.
Power CAN save yer ass.
Yes...
My current car is a gasoline Corsa. My previous one was a diesel Corsa.
Basically the same nominal power. But the diesel accelerated faster,
because it had a turbo... I moaned a bit, but the garage says to shut
up, it is cheaper to maintain without a turbo.
Mechanically, true.
But it CAN be fatal to not have that extra power when critically
needed.
On 2025-10-21 07:33, c186282 wrote:
On 10/20/25 23:39, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 01:02:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
No GPS back then, just paper maps. And the one I had was not good
enough
to know there was a dirt road in the route.
On a family vacation to Nova Scotia I found a likely looking road on the >>> map. It was about the same deal. NS is an island with all the towns
on the
shore and nothing in the middle. After the pavement ran out and the dirt >>> road became narrower and narrower my mother vetoed my trip planning
and we
turned around. No sense of adventure. There were plenty of dirt roads
where I grew up but she knew where they came out.
I still like paper maps ... but for travel
purposes you really need to get county-by-
county versions in order to find all the
hidden routes.
Well, here I just had one book (spring bound) with the maps for the
entire Spain, in enough detail. I keep it in the car, but I haven't "updated" it in years.
In my little adventure in the islands, I did not bring the map in my luggage, I think. I suppose I bought something local.
Today, google maps or openstreetmap has much more detail, even if you
use it without a GPS. You can not zoom on a paper map.
On Mon, 20 Oct 2025 21:52:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
BMW has to pay those fine German craftmens and skilled mechanics.of the
So yes it costs a lot more and reveals the extend of the decline
once proud American Dollar. In 1972 I paid about $1250 for the mc and
today you would have to come up with at least 10X as much lucre.
I would have liked one of the older BMWs like a RS60/2 or RS69. By the
time I got around to affording a BMW they had switched to oilheads that I thought were ugly. I looked at a couple of old airheads but they were
pretty ratty.
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 01:39:33 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Quads and "golf carts" can now be considered to be "vehicles" in lots
of states - the popularity has exploded. They require a few basic
minimums, tail-lights, head-lights, but the other requirements are
rather few.
In this state golf carts are subject to local ordinances. If they are
allowed the state laws dictate basic equipment and require a DL. There
are a couple of communities built up around golf courses where you see
them tooling around. Unless you're suicidal you don't want to be on most highways with something that peaks out at 20 mph.
I see a lot of ebikes lately. I haven't been into one of the local bike
shops recently so I don't know if they're selling them or if it's mail
order. The Forest Service and the county have banned them on most single track trails. They are walking a fine line particularly the ones that you couldn't pedal if you wanted to.
On Mon, 20 Oct 2025 23:22:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 10/20/25 04:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-20 09:32, c186282 wrote:
...
Hmmmm ... envision ... 2-lane rural road out in the sticks.
18-wheeler tries to pass a few vehicles, including my MC. But -
ONCOMING 18-wheelers and the parallel truck does not have the
power to pull ahead. Look, see, look again ... drop into 3rd and >>>> PUNCH the damned thing to the max.
Power CAN save yer ass.
Yes...
My current car is a gasoline Corsa. My previous one was a diesel Corsa.
Basically the same nominal power. But the diesel accelerated faster,
because it had a turbo... I moaned a bit, but the garage says to shut
up, it is cheaper to maintain without a turbo.
Mechanically, true.
But it CAN be fatal to not have that extra power when critically
needed.
What amuses me is my Toyota subcompact could blow the doors off most of
the cool sports cars we drove in the '60s to say nothing of a lot of the sedans.
The old 'R' series were pretty good and basic bikes, and USED to be
affordable. My prob was that they were all built for slightly taller
people
For any amount of power you can always desire more.
Simply know you car and what you can get out of it, and apply the proper evasive maneuvers, and don't get into risky situations that would
require more power
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary vehicle
while driving. The perspective does not change much until you're
RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Oddly it's the police who are often victims of this. Despite blue
lights and such, drivers kind of see the tail-lights and
automatically assume the pull-off strip is another open lane where
traffic is proceeding at their speed.
They only realize the truth an instant before the Big Smash.
Something about how humans are wired .....
I have a couple of e-bike fanatics who blast down the sidewalk in
front of my house. Some of those things are pretty damned fast. They
also make NO NOISE. Now have to CAREFULLY, incrementally, nose my car
out over the sidewalk.
I did a lot of motorcycling when I was slightly younger - worked it
out to 1,000,000+ miles, used up LOTS of bikes. Found MANY "secret
ways"
and neat-o mystery features that appeared on no maps.
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 21:22:31 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
For any amount of power you can always desire more.
Simply know you car and what you can get out of it, and apply the proper
evasive maneuvers, and don't get into risky situations that would
require more power
When I was young and foolish I left the engine alone and worked on the suspension. There were a lot of twisty mountain roads and you can only use just so much power. Except for the VStrom which was decent the bikes have
had suspension tweaks too with cartridge emulators in the forks. I don't
care for the 'dive like a submarine' effect and will sacrifice a plush
ride.
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:41:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The old 'R' series were pretty good and basic bikes, and USED to be
affordable. My prob was that they were all built for slightly taller
people
I think the Suzukis have gotten taller in my old age. I didn't used to
have to really think about swinging a leg over them. What really sucks is when you have a pack bungeed on the back, the hook on you boot catches on something, and you stand there like a dog trying to take a piss.
For any amount of power you can always desire more.
Simply know you car and what you can get out of it, and apply the proper evasive maneuvers, and don't get into risky situations that would
require more power 🙂
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary vehicle
while driving. The perspective does not change much until you're
RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow
vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
Trivia: the guy who invented it had a daughter named Deborah.
Oddly it's the police who are often victims of this. Despite blue
lights and such, drivers kind of see the tail-lights and
automatically assume the pull-off strip is another open lane where
traffic is proceeding at their speed.
They only realize the truth an instant before the Big Smash.
Something about how humans are wired .....
I live way past the street lights and there aren't that many houses so it
can be dark on moonless lights. I've found myself drifting toward some hapless bastard with a blinking red light on his bicycle like a moth to a flame. 'What's that? Better go check it out. It might be a wolf or something!'
I have a couple of e-bike fanatics who blast down the sidewalk in
front of my house. Some of those things are pretty damned fast. They
also make NO NOISE. Now have to CAREFULLY, incrementally, nose my car
out over the sidewalk.
I've clocked them at 25. It's disconcerting in city traffic when it's in
the bike lane and going faster than you. I'm used to bicyclists catching
up at stop lights but not running neck in neck.
Then there are the two wheel e-scooters that look like a trip to the ER,
to say nothing of hoverboards. We had plenty of ways to kill ourselves
when I was a kid but the choices have improved. The city built both a BMX
and skateboard park. I don't think I was that crazy even at 10.
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:37:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I did a lot of motorcycling when I was slightly younger - worked it
out to 1,000,000+ miles, used up LOTS of bikes. Found MANY "secret
ways"
and neat-o mystery features that appeared on no maps.
Then there are the mystery features that DO appear on the maps. There's a bridge near the house that was closed to vehicles in the late '80s. I
think it was '95 when most of the deck washed away in the spring flood. Without the deck the pilings are long gone now but it is still on some
maps.
Having a warped sense of humor I put a geocache on the far side of the
river. You can drive close to it but the route isn't obvious. I also put
one on a ridge where DeLorme showed a road. In that case there never was
any sort of road just a trail that would give a mountain goat vertigo.
Reagan popularized it but it's a Russian proverb: trust, but verify. Good advice when dealing with maps, paper or digital.
What amuses me is my Toyota subcompact could blow the doors off most of
the cool sports cars we drove in the '60s to say nothing of a lot of the sedans.
On 10/22/25 01:45, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 21:22:31 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
For any amount of power you can always desire more.
Esp true if you have a "Y" chromosome :-)
Simply know you car and what you can get out of it, and apply the proper >>> evasive maneuvers, and don't get into risky situations that would
require more power
When I was young and foolish I left the engine alone and worked on the
suspension. There were a lot of twisty mountain roads and you can only
use
just so much power. Except for the VStrom which was decent the bikes have
had suspension tweaks too with cartridge emulators in the forks. I don't
care for the 'dive like a submarine' effect and will sacrifice a plush
ride.
Don't think there's any "perfect" tuning - suspension
or drive train. Get it as good as you can and then COPE.
Motorcycling is always an adventure :-)
Alas, now, for younger people than I ....
On 10/22/25 01:40, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:41:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The old 'R' series were pretty good and basic bikes, and USED to be >>> affordable. My prob was that they were all built for slightly taller >>> people
I think the Suzukis have gotten taller in my old age. I didn't used to
have to really think about swinging a leg over them. What really sucks is
when you have a pack bungeed on the back, the hook on you boot catches on
something, and you stand there like a dog trying to take a piss.
Get a fair amount of rain where I live now.
This means street intersections are especially
dangerous on two wheels. The waiting vehicles
drip OIL and various fluids ... and when it's
damp the road surface becomes like greased glass.
You HAVE to be able to put both feet down, widely,
to get past that.
The Jap cruisers and some HDs are good at putting
the seat pretty low. You COULD do the survival
maneuvers. Alas BMWs were always pretty 'high'.
I'd have bought one otherwise. The old r90-S
standards were about perfect IMHO. But you
really needed to be near 6' tall .....
On 10/21/25 16:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 01:39:33 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Quads and "golf carts" can now be considered to be "vehicles" in >>> lots
of states - the popularity has exploded. They require a few basic >>> minimums, tail-lights, head-lights, but the other requirements are >>> rather few.
In this state golf carts are subject to local ordinances. If they are
allowed the state laws dictate basic equipment and require a DL. There
are a couple of communities built up around golf courses where you see
them tooling around. Unless you're suicidal you don't want to be on most
highways with something that peaks out at 20 mph.
I've seen some that do at least 45 :-)
But yea, major highway, keep up or get squashed.
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or
stationary vehicle while driving. The perspective
does not change much until you're RIGHT up on
the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Oddly it's the police who are often victims of
this. Despite blue lights and such, drivers
kind of see the tail-lights and automatically
assume the pull-off strip is another open lane
where traffic is proceeding at their speed.
They only realize the truth an instant before
the Big Smash. Something about how humans
are wired .....
I see a lot of ebikes lately. I haven't been into one of the local bike
shops recently so I don't know if they're selling them or if it's mail
order. The Forest Service and the county have banned them on most single
track trails. They are walking a fine line particularly the ones that you
couldn't pedal if you wanted to.
I have a couple of e-bike fanatics who blast down
the sidewalk in front of my house. Some of those
things are pretty damned fast. They also make
NO NOISE. Now have to CAREFULLY, incrementally,
nose my car out over the sidewalk.
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary vehicle
while driving. The perspective does not change much until you're
RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow
vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
On 10/22/25 02:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I've clocked some e-bikes ... 40mph sometimes. Not sure
if UK/elsewhere have limitations but then owners sometimes
do their own mods. The damned things are hard to see and
SILENT ... but it's YOUR fault if one hits you.
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:37:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I did a lot of motorcycling when I was slightly younger - worked it
out to 1,000,000+ miles, used up LOTS of bikes. Found MANY "secret
ways"
and neat-o mystery features that appeared on no maps.
Then there are the mystery features that DO appear on the maps. There's a bridge near the house that was closed to vehicles in the late '80s. I
think it was '95 when most of the deck washed away in the spring flood. Without the deck the pilings are long gone now but it is still on some
maps.
Having a warped sense of humor I put a geocache on the far side of the
river. You can drive close to it but the route isn't obvious. I also put
one on a ridge where DeLorme showed a road. In that case there never was
any sort of road just a trail that would give a mountain goat vertigo.
Reagan popularized it but it's a Russian proverb: trust, but verify. Good advice when dealing with maps, paper or digital.
Raccoons have NO 'traffic sense' - they, entire families,
will just walk out into traffic to cross the road. Splat !
They are fairly intelligent but it does NOT include that.
Cats wait until the LAST ULTIMATE SECOND and then try to
dart across the road. Again, often, splat ! Dogs think
vehicles are 'cattle' or something, rush out to 'bite at
the heels'. Splat.
I see a lot of ebikes lately. I haven't been into one of the local
bike shops recently so I don't know if they're selling them or if it's
mail order. The Forest Service and the county have banned them on most
single track trails. They are walking a fine line particularly the
ones that you couldn't pedal if you wanted to.
Eum... why?
The exceptions are electric chairs for impaired people, and some of them
are fast!
'Scoots' tend to be a LITTLE larger, a LITTLE easier to see.
Not much, but SOME.
The old bright-painted Vespa's were MUCH better.
On 2025-10-22 08:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary vehicle
while driving. The perspective does not change much until you're
RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow
vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
Fascinating. I don't think I have ever seen one.
...
I never rode a bike, they scare me. Also they fascinate me, as machines.
They are a vanishing device. Most people around here have went to large round bales. They are a lot less work both in making hay and in feeding it out. They can be mechanically loaded on a standard flatbed rather than dealing with a lot of little square bales.
On 2025-10-22 05:48, c186282 wrote:
On 10/21/25 16:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 01:39:33 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Quads and "golf carts" can now be considered to be "vehicles" in >>>> lots
of states - the popularity has exploded. They require a few basic >>>> minimums, tail-lights, head-lights, but the other requirements are >>>> rather few.
In this state golf carts are subject to local ordinances. If they are
allowed the state laws dictate basic equipment and require a DL. There >>> are a couple of communities built up around golf courses where you see
them tooling around. Unless you're suicidal you don't want to be on most >>> highways with something that peaks out at 20 mph.
I've seen some that do at least 45 :-)
Around here, there is a regulation that vehicles with a gasoline motor smaller than 50 cc, do not need a driving license. They have to be very light. I don't know about an equivalent rule for electricals.
But yea, major highway, keep up or get squashed.
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or
stationary vehicle while driving. The perspective
does not change much until you're RIGHT up on
the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Oddly it's the police who are often victims of
this. Despite blue lights and such, drivers
kind of see the tail-lights and automatically
assume the pull-off strip is another open lane
where traffic is proceeding at their speed.
They only realize the truth an instant before
the Big Smash. Something about how humans
are wired .....
I see a lot of ebikes lately. I haven't been into one of the local bike
shops recently so I don't know if they're selling them or if it's mail
order. The Forest Service and the county have banned them on most single >>> track trails. They are walking a fine line particularly the ones that
you
couldn't pedal if you wanted to.
Eum... why?
I have a couple of e-bike fanatics who blast down
the sidewalk in front of my house. Some of those
things are pretty damned fast. They also make
NO NOISE. Now have to CAREFULLY, incrementally,
nose my car out over the sidewalk.
In theory, electric "skate boards" or whatever they are named are
forbidden on the sidewalks here. They are considered motor vehicles and
must go on the road path.
The exceptions are electric chairs for impaired people, and some of them
are fast!
On 2025-10-22 08:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary vehicle >>> while driving. The perspective does not change much until you're
RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow
vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
Fascinating. I don't think I have ever seen one.
But the authorities have other better things to
do than hassle e-bike riders.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:26:32 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-22 08:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary vehicle >>>> while driving. The perspective does not change much until you're
RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow
vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
Fascinating. I don't think I have ever seen one.
...
They are a vanishing device. Most people around here have went to large
round bales. They are a lot less work both in making hay and in feeding it out. They can be mechanically loaded on a standard flatbed rather than dealing with a lot of little square bales.
I've seen all sides of square bales, both bucking them onto a flatbed in
the field, stacking them in the barn, loading them onto a pickup to feed
the stock, and riding the back of a pickup in sub zero weather, cutting
bales and tossing them off the back. Lot of work all around.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 03:34:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:
'Scoots' tend to be a LITTLE larger, a LITTLE easier to see.
Not much, but SOME.
Not that kind of scooter...
'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OV9mleHbc
The old bright-painted Vespa's were MUCH better.
When I was a kid I lusted for a Vespa. No way, no day. My father had a
thing about little wheels. When I bought the Harley he helped me bring it home and break the news to my mother but no scooters.
The 'break the news' didn't work out well. I bought it at a police auction and a reporter was filming the event. I made the 6 o'clock news rather
than a subtle ramp up.
On 10/22/25 08:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-22 08:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary vehicle >>>> while driving. The perspective does not change much until you're >>>> RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow
vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
Fascinating. I don't think I have ever seen one.
Not near 'farm country' ???
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:21:17 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I see a lot of ebikes lately. I haven't been into one of the local
bike shops recently so I don't know if they're selling them or if it's >>>> mail order. The Forest Service and the county have banned them on most >>>> single track trails. They are walking a fine line particularly the
ones that you couldn't pedal if you wanted to.
Eum... why?
Many of the trails have designated usage, hikers, bicyclists, horses, motorcycles, and quads. Hikers and horses may be permitted but not
bicycles or motorcycles for example. I hike in an area that was created by mountain bikers and there are steep downhills that are bike only for
safety reasons.
So if you have a trail that allows bicycles how do you classify a e-bike
that isn't a pedal assist but uses a throttle that doesn't require any pedaling and can do 25 mph? There are some Chinese designs that do a wink
and nod. They have pedals but if you tried to use them you'd find your
feet hit the frame. The you get to full on electric motorcycles that make
no pretense of being a bicycle.
https://zeromotorcycles.com/
Rather than dealing with all the nuances coming up with a new icon for the sign at the trail head that means 'no e-bikes' is easier.
They are still allowed on the urban paved trails but I don't know how long that will last if there are abuses. There is sort of a feeling among the pedal bike riders that e-bike riders are lazy, low class trash.
The exceptions are electric chairs for impaired people, and some of them
are fast!
A friend was a quadriplegic and had one. If we were going someplace
together he had to slow down for my sake. It did condition me to be alert
for the whining sound e-bikes make.
On 23/10/2025 05:28, c186282 wrote:
But the authorities have other better things to
do than hassle e-bike riders.
Like fining a woman for tip[ping a half drunk cup of coffee down a
street drain...
On 2025-10-23 09:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/10/2025 05:28, c186282 wrote:
But the authorities have other better things to
do than hassle e-bike riders.
Like fining a woman for tip[ping a half drunk cup of coffee down a
street drain...
Why? :-o
Maybe if the street drain use a different pipe system than toilets. Here
it is all the same, all the waters go to the same mixed system.
I would like to buy an small electrically assisted pedal bicycle. One
that I can pack inside my car. It is not laziness, but that I don't have
that force in me any longer.
That way I could visit places that do not allow cars, perhaps.
But the authorities have other better things to do than hassle e-bike
riders.
In much of the US, the street drain system is separate from the sanitary sewer and the street drains simply lead directly to local waterways (rivers/creeks/etc.) with no "treatment plant" in the way.
On 2025-10-23 06:29, c186282 wrote:
On 10/22/25 08:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-22 08:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary
vehicle while driving. The perspective does not change much
until you're RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty
accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow
vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a
Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
Fascinating. I don't think I have ever seen one.
Not near 'farm country' ???
Not cereals around here.
It is square bales here, I see them sometimes in the fields, sometimes
piled up high in a barn. I just don't remember seeing the machine that
piles them up.
On the other hand, the last few times we've driven down I-5 through
Oregon, we've seen stacks of huge rectangular bales. They're roughly
the same proportions as the traditional bales, but maybe three times as
large on each dimension.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 17:46:14 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
In much of the US, the street drain system is separate from the sanitary
sewer and the street drains simply lead directly to local waterways
(rivers/creeks/etc.) with no "treatment plant" in the way.
Many of the storm drains here have stenciled reminders that the aquifer
that supplies the city is only down about 25' so don't pour your
antifreeze, oil, and so forth down them.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-23 09:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/10/2025 05:28, c186282 wrote:
But the authorities have other better things to
do than hassle e-bike riders.
Like fining a woman for tip[ping a half drunk cup of coffee down a
street drain...
Why? :-o
Maybe if the street drain use a different pipe system than toilets. Here
it is all the same, all the waters go to the same mixed system.
In much of the US, the street drain system is separate from the
sanitary sewer and the street drains simply lead directly to local
waterways (rivers/creeks/etc.) with no "treatment plant" in the way.
The idea being that rain water does not need to be treated for release
into the river/creeks, while the "toilet sewer" water does need treating/filtration/etc. before the remaining water is released to the
local waterways. This reduces the amount of sewage the treatment plant
has to treat -- which translates directly to a cost saving in the
treatment process.
On 2025-10-23 19:46, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-23 09:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/10/2025 05:28, c186282 wrote:
But the authorities have other better things to
do than hassle e-bike riders.
Like fining a woman for tip[ping a half drunk cup of coffee down a
street drain...
Why? :-o
Maybe if the street drain use a different pipe system than toilets. Here >>> it is all the same, all the waters go to the same mixed system.
In much of the US, the street drain system is separate from the
sanitary sewer and the street drains simply lead directly to local
waterways (rivers/creeks/etc.) with no "treatment plant" in the way.
The idea being that rain water does not need to be treated for release
into the river/creeks, while the "toilet sewer" water does need
treating/filtration/etc. before the remaining water is released to the
local waterways. This reduces the amount of sewage the treatment plant
has to treat -- which translates directly to a cost saving in the
treatment process.
Makes sense.
Here (Spain) the drains/sewers predate the existence, even the dreaming,
of treatment of waste waters. Or were built while we were poor.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 14:59:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-23 06:29, c186282 wrote:
On 10/22/25 08:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-22 08:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary
vehicle while driving. The perspective does not change much >>>>>> until you're RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty
accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow >>>>> vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a
Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
Fascinating. I don't think I have ever seen one.
Not near 'farm country' ???
Not cereals around here.
Hay is not a cereal unless you're a horse. Wheat harvesting is a
different process with the grain separated in the combine. Sometimes the wheat straw is baled. Straw, unlike hay, provides no nutrition and is used for bedding.
On 23/10/2025 05:28, c186282 wrote:
But the authorities have other better things to
do than hassle e-bike riders.
Like fining a woman for tip[ping a half drunk cup of coffee down a
street drain...
On 2025-10-23 09:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/10/2025 05:28, c186282 wrote:
But the authorities have other better things to
do than hassle e-bike riders.
Like fining a woman for tip[ping a half drunk cup of coffee down a
street drain...
Why? :-o
Maybe if the street drain use a different pipe system than toilets. Here
it is all the same, all the waters go to the same mixed system.
On 2025-10-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
They are a vanishing device. Most people around here have went to large
round bales. They are a lot less work both in making hay and in feeding it >> out. They can be mechanically loaded on a standard flatbed rather than
dealing with a lot of little square bales.
The large round bales have pretty much taken over up here in B.C. too.
Often they're wrapped in plastic before being picked up; the machine
that does that is pretty impressive to watch.
...
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 17:46:14 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
In much of the US, the street drain system is separate from the
sanitary sewer and the street drains simply lead directly to local
waterways (rivers/creeks/etc.) with no "treatment plant" in the way.
Many of the storm drains here have stenciled reminders that the aquifer
that supplies the city is only down about 25' so don't pour your
antifreeze, oil, and so forth down them.
Many here have a similar label, only here the label reminds that the
storm drains empty out into the nearby large river.
On 2025-10-23, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
They are a vanishing device. Most people around here have went to
large round bales. They are a lot less work both in making hay and in
feeding it out. They can be mechanically loaded on a standard flatbed
rather than dealing with a lot of little square bales.
The large round bales have pretty much taken over up here in B.C. too.
Often they're wrapped in plastic before being picked up; the machine
that does that is pretty impressive to watch.
...
Are you referring to those enormous marshmallows sometimes visible in
farm fields when driving down the freeway? :-)
Alfalfa is also great food for cattle and our dairy cows got some
every day but we grew our own on a very small farm.
On 10/23/25 09:09, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-23 09:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/10/2025 05:28, c186282 wrote:
But the authorities have other better things to
do than hassle e-bike riders.
Like fining a woman for tip[ping a half drunk cup of coffee down a
street drain...
Why? :-o
Maybe if the street drain use a different pipe system than toilets.
Here it is all the same, all the waters go to the same mixed system.
Find the news story. Nothing 'logical' about
that persecution whatsoever.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 15:06:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I would like to buy an small electrically assisted pedal bicycle. One
that I can pack inside my car. It is not laziness, but that I don't have
that force in me any longer.
That way I could visit places that do not allow cars, perhaps.
One thing to remember is they are quite a bit heavier than road bikes.
An
off shoot of Rivian is supposed to have a new model out next year. Like a hybrid car, the pedals are only connected to a generator which charges the battery and provides a little propulsion. There is a limp home mode that
only uses the generator output if the battery dies. I can't think that
would be much fun. That will add another dimension to the argument of
whether something with pedals that aren't connected to a wheel are
bicycles or some sort of moped.
On 24 Oct 2025 03:30:43 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2025-10-23, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-10-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
They are a vanishing device. Most people around here have went to
large round bales. They are a lot less work both in making hay and in
feeding it out. They can be mechanically loaded on a standard flatbed
rather than dealing with a lot of little square bales.
The large round bales have pretty much taken over up here in B.C. too.
Often they're wrapped in plastic before being picked up; the machine
that does that is pretty impressive to watch.
...
Are you referring to those enormous marshmallows sometimes visible in
farm fields when driving down the freeway? :-)
https://www.istockphoto.com/photos/hay-bale
If you want a truly enormous marshmallow find someone using a beaverslide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaverslide
The write up is a little misleading. The buckrake is in front of the
horses, not being pulled by them like most farm implements. The harnessing
is interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdYDMr6q84g
The Grant-Kohrs Ranch is a National Historic Site and they usually have an open house at the end of the summer when they're putting the hay up.--
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 14:57:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
It is square bales here, I see them sometimes in the fields, sometimes
piled up high in a barn. I just don't remember seeing the machine that
piles them up.
Unfortunately several other people and myself were that machines that
piled them... A Harobed could put a row in place but we didn't have one.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 14:59:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-23 06:29, c186282 wrote:
On 10/22/25 08:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-22 08:02, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 23:48:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It is surprisingly difficult to spot a slow or stationary
vehicle while driving. The perspective does not change much >>>>>> until you're RIGHT up on the damned thing. MANY nasty
accidents result.
Any vehicle that can't do at least 25 is supposed to have a big slow >>>>> vehicle triangle on the back. Always fun to get stuck behind a
Harobed.
https://www.loc.gov/item/ncr002399/
Fascinating. I don't think I have ever seen one.
Not near 'farm country' ???
Not cereals around here.
Hay is not a cereal unless you're a horse. Wheat harvesting is a
different process with the grain separated in the combine. Sometimes the wheat straw is baled. Straw, unlike hay, provides no nutrition and is used for bedding.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:07:01 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I never rode a bike, they scare me. Also they fascinate me, as machines.
Speaking of which, it's up to 54 F. Time to go for a ride while the
weather holds. Mornings are frost so might as well waste time on usenet :)
On 2025-10-22 23:05, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:07:01 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I never rode a bike, they scare me. Also they fascinate me, as machines.
Speaking of which, it's up to 54 F. Time to go for a ride while the
weather holds. Mornings are frost so might as well waste time on
usenet :)
25°C yesterday afternoon-evening. Too hot for the season. Forecast is 27 for today.
On 2025-10-23 22:01, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 15:06:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I would like to buy an small electrically assisted pedal bicycle. One
that I can pack inside my car. It is not laziness, but that I don't
have that force in me any longer.
That way I could visit places that do not allow cars, perhaps.
One thing to remember is they are quite a bit heavier than road bikes.
bicycles, I hope you mean, not motorbikes.
I heard that most, probably all, electrically assisted bicycles do not
have regenerative braking.
Burcu Yesilyurt, who lives in Kew, said she thought she was acting
responsibly when she poured a small amount from her reusable cup
down the drain - rather than risk spilling it on the bus she was
about to catch to work.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 10:09:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-23 22:01, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 15:06:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I would like to buy an small electrically assisted pedal bicycle. One
that I can pack inside my car. It is not laziness, but that I don't
have that force in me any longer.
That way I could visit places that do not allow cars, perhaps.
One thing to remember is they are quite a bit heavier than road bikes.
bicycles, I hope you mean, not motorbikes.
Yeah, given this thread I should have been explicit. Many of the ones I've seen around town have fat tires. 26 x 4" I think. For reference the front tire on my DR650 is 21 x 3.25. There is quite a range depending on the batteries but the fat tire types go around 35 kg. That could be hard to wrestle into a car.
https://www.montaguebikes.com/product/paratrooper/
Not an e-bike but it's around 15 kg. It fits into the hatchback but it's a big awkward since the CG is out in front of you when you're lifting it. I didn't want to use a bike carrier so went with the folder. Lifting 35 kg
on a rear carrier would be possible but I wouldn't want to try a clean
and jerk with something as awkward as a bike to get it onto a rooftop carrier.
I heard that most, probably all, electrically assisted bicycles do not
have regenerative braking.
https://www.engadget.com/transportation/the-first-e-bike-from-rivian- spinoff-also-has-a-virtual-drivetrain-173000250.html
That's the full write up. It will have regenerative braking.
On 2025-10-23 22:23, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 14:57:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
It is square bales here, I see them sometimes in the fields, sometimes
piled up high in a barn. I just don't remember seeing the machine that
piles them up.
Unfortunately several other people and myself were that machines that
piled them... A Harobed could put a row in place but we didn't have
one.
Not fun.
I visited my mother's village for a summer. The place lived from
agriculture, but not cows in sight. Small survival plots. The straw was
kept inside barns, it rained.
See this mute video, how they separated the grain from the straw. There
is a pile of straw in the back.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkicw9W4poQ>
Ok, few cows either around here. No much rain.
On 2025-10-22 23:05, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:07:01 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I never rode a bike, they scare me. Also they fascinate me, as
machines.
Speaking of which, it's up to 54 F. Time to go for a ride while the
weather holds. Mornings are frost so might as well waste time on usenet
:)
25°C yesterday afternoon-evening. Too hot for the season. Forecast is 27
for today.
On 24/10/2025 09:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-22 23:05, rbowman wrote:Lucky you. Stiff north wind and about 5-10°C here.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:07:01 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I never rode a bike, they scare me. Also they fascinate me, as
machines.
Speaking of which, it's up to 54 F. Time to go for a ride while the
weather holds. Mornings are frost so might as well waste time on
usenet :)
25°C yesterday afternoon-evening. Too hot for the season. Forecast is
27 for today.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 10:38:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Ok, few cows either around here. No much rain.
As far as rainfall this is a semiarid climate with 12 to 15" of precipitation annually. However in good years there is a lot of mountain
snow pack that feeds the rivers. Almost farm land is irrigated.
That's the story in most of the western US. If you can't irrigate you
can't grow anything. California, in particular, would be mostly desert without their extensive water projects. That includes LA. There's some dryland farming but it's tricky and a good yield is far from guaranteed.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 10:35:31 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-23 22:23, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 14:57:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
It is square bales here, I see them sometimes in the fields, sometimes >>>> piled up high in a barn. I just don't remember seeing the machine that >>>> piles them up.
Unfortunately several other people and myself were that machines that
piled them... A Harobed could put a row in place but we didn't have
one.
Not fun.
I visited my mother's village for a summer. The place lived from
agriculture, but not cows in sight. Small survival plots. The straw was
kept inside barns, it rained.
See this mute video, how they separated the grain from the straw. There
is a pile of straw in the back.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkicw9W4poQ>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine_harvester
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqg7QfnDCDs
The state grows a lot of wheat but baling straw is a sideline. A lot of
wheat growers just plow it under. Hay is a major crop though. This part of the state isn't suitable for wheat but there is a lot of hay. Generally
they get two cuttings a year.
https://www.americasheartland.org/state/montana/
Alfalfa hay fetches about $30 a ton over grass hay. Like any other
commodity the price fluctuates quite a bit. I think alfalfa is $125 / ton currently. It's not the most lucrative crop but in farming you grow what
you can grow.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 10:38:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Ok, few cows either around here. No much rain.
As far as rainfall this is a semiarid climate with 12 to 15" of precipitation annually. However in good years there is a lot of mountain
snow pack that feeds the rivers. Almost farm land is irrigated.
That's the story in most of the western US. If you can't irrigate you
can't grow anything. California, in particular, would be mostly desert without their extensive water projects. That includes LA. There's some dryland farming but it's tricky and a good yield is far from guaranteed.
Interesting. But too expensive. If those are the normal prices, I will
have to reconsider.
We (Cartagena) are in the Mediterranean coast, south east of Spain. No rivers. During Franco dictatorship a canal was built to bring water from
a far river (far according to our size). The "Trasvase Tajo-Segura".
Of course. But at places like that village that was impossible, the
plots were too small. It comes from dividing the inheritance between
your sons, and they marrying and geting another plot(s) from wife,
generation after generation, for centuries. Plus, it is a valley and
there are mountains, no much flat land.
It is, was, survival agriculture, they cultivated what they could
directly eat. No selling. They did not have money. They paid the doctor
with eggs!
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 04:01:47 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On the other hand, the last few times we've driven down I-5 through
Oregon, we've seen stacks of huge rectangular bales. They're roughly
the same proportions as the traditional bales, but maybe three times as
large on each dimension.
I haven't seen the large ones. I wonder if they're designed for shipping?
I once loaded baled hay in Ellensburg WA and took it to the docks in Long Beach CA. There it was loaded into containers bound for Japan. I think feeding a cow in Japan must be pricey. Round bales wouldn't pack as
nicely.
I used to have enough cash and credit to go to Walmart and searchon
refurbished computers which is why the .sig file is relevant.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 20:59:59 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I used to have enough cash and credit to go to Walmart and searchon
refurbished computers which is why the .sig file is relevant.
I've got a refurbed Lenovo Thinkpad T480 coming. We'll see how that works out. It has replaceable part and was well thought of in its day. It was cheaper than a mini and is a real laptop. Lubuntu runs on my very old
netbook but it's very slow.
It's not in the Dell Precision 7730 league but for $215 it's something to play with Arch on.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 10:42:54 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-22 23:05, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:07:01 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I never rode a bike, they scare me. Also they fascinate me, as
machines.
Speaking of which, it's up to 54 F. Time to go for a ride while the
weather holds. Mornings are frost so might as well waste time on usenet
:)
25°C yesterday afternoon-evening. Too hot for the season. Forecast is 27
for today.
It's suppose to get up to 19 C today but right now it's a little over 7.
Next week looks like highs in the 10 - 12 range. Winter is coming.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 21:22:36 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Interesting. But too expensive. If those are the normal prices, I will
have to reconsider.
No, that's high end. I think you can get something decent in the 1000-1500 USD range but it would require research. Bicycles have been that way for years. Shimano has quite a few different grades of components, all of
which look the same. Some can be mixed and matched. Altus used to be the entry level and a manufacturer might use a fairly high quality suspension fork and cheap out on the components. TBH I've had everything from XTR on down; they're all adequate and they all break the same.
Electric bikes add many more variables. I wouldn't trust a $500 Chinese
bike bought from Amazon although many of the reviews are good. I got a
kick out of one 5 star review "have ridden it maybe a total of 5 miles
over the course of 3 trips,"
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 22:13:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Of course. But at places like that village that was impossible, the
plots were too small. It comes from dividing the inheritance between
your sons, and they marrying and geting another plot(s) from wife,
generation after generation, for centuries. Plus, it is a valley and
there are mountains, no much flat land.
It is, was, survival agriculture, they cultivated what they could
directly eat. No selling. They did not have money. They paid the doctor
with eggs!
The US motto is 'get big or get out'. Family farms have mostly been bought
up and consolidated by agribusiness that can afford the technology. Where
I grew up was dairy country. Almost all my friends who grew up on farms
sold the herds during a government buyback in the '80s. They were working factory jobs to keep the farm afloat and saw a way out. 80 acres with
maybe 50 happy cows wandering around didn't cut it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Berry
Berry has written a lot of nonfiction but I like his Port William stories.
It makes me nostalgic for a place that is no more and isn't coming back. Maybe they can build a data center in Port William.
I believe most of the people in my mother village emigrated. My
grandparents were the first, 1930 perhaps. Now the village has people
coming back, when they retire. So there is a bar or two. Some come back
on the holidays.
I agree with you competely but the x86 machines I started with
about 20 years ago were quite weak with inadequate memory and disk
space. These were much faster than 6502/Z80/68000-68060 and the last
of those was limited to 50 MHz. I learned about disk speed slowing operations with the 8 bit machines.
On 24/10/2025 20:45, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 10:42:54 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-22 23:05, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:07:01 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I never rode a bike, they scare me. Also they fascinate me, as
machines.
Speaking of which, it's up to 54 F. Time to go for a ride while the
weather holds. Mornings are frost so might as well waste time on
usenet :)
25°C yesterday afternoon-evening. Too hot for the season. Forecast is
27 for today.
It's suppose to get up to 19 C today but right now it's a little over
7.
Next week looks like highs in the 10 - 12 range. Winter is coming.
Wind 17 mph from the West/Northwest Temperature 10°C Humidity 71%
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 22:09:50 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I agree with you competely but the x86 machines I started with
about 20 years ago were quite weak with inadequate memory and disk
space. These were much faster than 6502/Z80/68000-68060 and the last
of those was limited to 50 MHz. I learned about disk speed slowing
operations with the 8 bit machines.
The first gen PCs with the 8088 weren't much, if any, improvement on the
CP/M Z80 boxes. It took me a while to buy a i86 box with a massive 5 MB
hard drive.
On 2025-10-25 21:43, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 22:09:50 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I agree with you competely but the x86 machines I started with
about 20 years ago were quite weak with inadequate memory and disk
space. These were much faster than 6502/Z80/68000-68060 and the last >>> of those was limited to 50 MHz. I learned about disk speed slowing
operations with the 8 bit machines.
The first gen PCs with the 8088 weren't much, if any, improvement on the
CP/M Z80 boxes. It took me a while to buy a i86 box with a massive 5 MB
hard drive.
To me they were. I could do college work on my first PC around 1986. Software considered "serious" appeared.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 22:09:50 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I agree with you competely but the x86 machines I started with
about 20 years ago were quite weak with inadequate memory and disk
space. These were much faster than 6502/Z80/68000-68060 and the last
of those was limited to 50 MHz. I learned about disk speed slowing
operations with the 8 bit machines.
The first gen PCs with the 8088 weren't much, if any, improvement on the
CP/M Z80 boxes. It took me a while to buy a i86 box with a massive 5 MB
hard drive.
Having programmed on both, they were.
CP/M was very short of RAM and the typical machine had no standard
expansion slot.
8088 was a good step up. 386 was the next big one
On 10/25/25 16:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-25 21:43, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 22:09:50 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I agree with you competely but the x86 machines I started with >>>> about 20 years ago were quite weak with inadequate memory and disk
space. These were much faster than 6502/Z80/68000-68060 and the last >>>> of those was limited to 50 MHz. I learned about disk speed slowing
operations with the 8 bit machines.
The first gen PCs with the 8088 weren't much, if any, improvement on the >>> CP/M Z80 boxes. It took me a while to buy a i86 box with a massive 5 MB
hard drive.
To me they were. I could do college work on my first PC around 1986.
Software considered "serious" appeared.
Hey, decent stuff would run even on 8088 systems.
Didn't have a zillion typesetting options, but
you could still make great docs, useful sheets,
run accounting pgms, DBs, do pix/drawing. By
scaling complexity to suit the platform the
software could be relatively small/quick.
Now ... faster chips and more space = BLOAT !!!
It's like a closet, the bigger the more useless
shit you pack in there.
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 11:00:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No. A lot more
Having programmed on both, they were.
CP/M was very short of RAM and the typical machine had no standard
expansion slot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus
Many didn't allow for expansion but it wasn't a limiting factor in most cases. For S-100 there were prototype boards that plugged into the back
plane so you could roll your own.
http://www.s100computers.com/Cards%20For%20Sale.htm
8088 was a good step up. 386 was the next big one
The 8088 could only address 64K.
You could point CS, SS, DS, and ES toYou could use the long model throughout.
different 64K blocks.
accomplish much the same.
Intel formalized it in a processor that was
supposed to be a temporary fix before the iAPX 432 arrived.
The original PC ran at 4.77 MHz. Odd speed, right? The CGA adaptor needed 3.579545 for the color burst. (I don't know about the European market). 4 times 3.57945 is 14.31818. Divide that by 3 and you get 4.77277. Couple of dividers and you save the cost of a 8284 or an extra crystal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8284
The 8088 also used the cheap 8bit peripherals from the 8080, 8085, and Z80 designs. Of course that meant limiting yourself to a 8bit data bus but
money is money.
https://vintagecomputer.com/osborne-occ-2-executive.html
I'll go with the article rather than my memory but I remember the
Executive as using the Z80B, which was a 6 MHz part. I had an Osborne 1
but bought two Executives from the Boston Globe when they were moving to
PCs.
For all practical purposes the original PC was not faster than a CP/M
system and had a hell of a lot less available software. Much of that had
been ported from CP/M and was less than efficient. Part of that was the memory models.
https://digitalmars.com/ctg/ctgMemoryModel.html
Building an executable was fun since there were 5 sets of libraries for
the 5 models.
Don't forget the 5150 (IBM Personal Computer) came with 16 KB of RAM.
Usually you needed more slots than it had since the mobo was limited.
The 5160 (XT) at least kicked the base memory up to 128 KB. It had more
slots but good luck getting some of the cards into them. You might want to toss the cover and point a fan at the thing.
The 5170 (AT) was starting to get real with wider buses and a 6 MHz processor. Let's forget the PS/2. You couldn't tell the horses apart
without a program on that mess. I think they built them from spare parts
and, arguably, were just about out of the PC business.
So, yeah, given a CP/M 3.0 system versus a bog stock 5150 I'll take the
CP/M box.
On 26/10/2025 18:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 11:00:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No. A lot more
Having programmed on both, they were.
CP/M was very short of RAM and the typical machine had no standard
expansion slot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus
Many didn't allow for expansion but it wasn't a limiting factor in most
cases. For S-100 there were prototype boards that plugged into the back
plane so you could roll your own.
http://www.s100computers.com/Cards%20For%20Sale.htm
8088 was a good step up. 386 was the next big one
The 8088 could only address 64K.
The original PC ran at 4.77 MHz. Odd speed, right? The CGA adaptor neededNever used a PC with a TV. Always had a proper monitor. In fact I never
3.579545 for the color burst. (I don't know about the European market). 4
times 3.57945 is 14.31818. Divide that by 3 and you get 4.77277.
Couple of
dividers and you save the cost of a 8284 or an extra crystal.
used any computer with a TV.
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 11:00:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Having programmed on both, they were.
CP/M was very short of RAM and the typical machine had no standard
expansion slot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus
Many didn't allow for expansion but it wasn't a limiting factor in most cases. For S-100 there were prototype boards that plugged into the back
plane so you could roll your own.
http://www.s100computers.com/Cards%20For%20Sale.htm
8088 was a good step up. 386 was the next big one
The 8088 could only address 64K. You could point CS, SS, DS, and ES to different 64K blocks. CP/m 3.0 could use external logic bank switching to accomplish much the same. Intel formalized it in a processor that was supposed to be a temporary fix before the iAPX 432 arrived.
The original PC ran at 4.77 MHz. Odd speed, right? The CGA adaptor needed 3.579545 for the color burst. (I don't know about the European market). 4 times 3.57945 is 14.31818. Divide that by 3 and you get 4.77277. Couple of dividers and you save the cost of a 8284 or an extra crystal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8284
The 8088 also used the cheap 8bit peripherals from the 8080, 8085, and Z80 designs. Of course that meant limiting yourself to a 8bit data bus but
money is money.
https://vintagecomputer.com/osborne-occ-2-executive.html
I'll go with the article rather than my memory but I remember the
Executive as using the Z80B, which was a 6 MHz part. I had an Osborne 1
but bought two Executives from the Boston Globe when they were moving to
PCs.
For all practical purposes the original PC was not faster than a CP/M
system and had a hell of a lot less available software. Much of that had
been ported from CP/M and was less than efficient. Part of that was the memory models.
https://digitalmars.com/ctg/ctgMemoryModel.html
Building an executable was fun since there were 5 sets of libraries for
the 5 models.
Don't forget the 5150 (IBM Personal Computer) came with 16 KB of RAM.
Usually you needed more slots than it had since the mobo was limited.
The 5160 (XT) at least kicked the base memory up to 128 KB. It had more
slots but good luck getting some of the cards into them. You might want to toss the cover and point a fan at the thing.
The 5170 (AT) was starting to get real with wider buses and a 6 MHz processor. Let's forget the PS/2. You couldn't tell the horses apart
without a program on that mess. I think they built them from spare parts
and, arguably, were just about out of the PC business.
So, yeah, given a CP/M 3.0 system versus a bog stock 5150 I'll take the
CP/M box.
Well by the time I got to them they had a lot more of everything.
The original PC ran at 4.77 MHz. Odd speed, right? The CGA adaptor needed 3.579545 for the color burst. (I don't know about the European market). 4 times 3.57945 is 14.31818. Divide that by 3 and you get 4.77277. Couple of dividers and you save the cost of a 8284 or an extra crystal.
So, yeah, given a CP/M 3.0 system versus a bog stock 5150 I'll take the
CP/M box.
On 2025-10-26 23:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/10/2025 18:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 11:00:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No. A lot more
Having programmed on both, they were.
CP/M was very short of RAM and the typical machine had no standard
expansion slot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus
Many didn't allow for expansion but it wasn't a limiting factor in most
cases. For S-100 there were prototype boards that plugged into the back
plane so you could roll your own.
http://www.s100computers.com/Cards%20For%20Sale.htm
8088 was a good step up. 386 was the next big one
The 8088 could only address 64K.
Yes, but for that you needed to write to the segment register. You could
not have (directly) a memory variable bigger than 64K.
...
The original PC ran at 4.77 MHz. Odd speed, right? The CGA adaptorNever used a PC with a TV. Always had a proper monitor. In fact I
needed
3.579545 for the color burst. (I don't know about the European
market). 4
times 3.57945 is 14.31818. Divide that by 3 and you get 4.77277.
Couple of
dividers and you save the cost of a 8284 or an extra crystal.
never used any computer with a TV.
I did use computers with a TV monitor, like the Spectrum.
What he says about the reason for the choice of frequencies is correct.
On 2025-10-26 23:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/10/2025 18:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 11:00:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No. A lot more
Having programmed on both, they were.
CP/M was very short of RAM and the typical machine had no standard
expansion slot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus
Many didn't allow for expansion but it wasn't a limiting factor in most
cases. For S-100 there were prototype boards that plugged into the back
plane so you could roll your own.
http://www.s100computers.com/Cards%20For%20Sale.htm
8088 was a good step up. 386 was the next big one
The 8088 could only address 64K.
Yes, but for that you needed to write to the segment register. You could
not have (directly) a memory variable bigger than 64K.
...
The original PC ran at 4.77 MHz. Odd speed, right? The CGA adaptorNever used a PC with a TV. Always had a proper monitor. In fact I
needed
3.579545 for the color burst. (I don't know about the European
market). 4
times 3.57945 is 14.31818. Divide that by 3 and you get 4.77277.
Couple of
dividers and you save the cost of a 8284 or an extra crystal.
never used any computer with a TV.
I did use computers with a TV monitor, like the Spectrum.
What he says about the reason for the choice of frequencies is correct.
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 22:19:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well by the time I got to them they had a lot more of everything.
That explains a lot. You were late to the party.
On 10/26/25 19:48, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-10-26 23:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/10/2025 18:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 11:00:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No. A lot more
Having programmed on both, they were.
CP/M was very short of RAM and the typical machine had no standard
expansion slot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus
Many didn't allow for expansion but it wasn't a limiting factor in most >>>> cases. For S-100 there were prototype boards that plugged into the back >>>> plane so you could roll your own.
http://www.s100computers.com/Cards%20For%20Sale.htm
8088 was a good step up. 386 was the next big one
The 8088 could only address 64K.
Yes, but for that you needed to write to the segment register. You
could not have (directly) a memory variable bigger than 64K.
They found cheats for that really soon.
...
The original PC ran at 4.77 MHz. Odd speed, right? The CGA adaptorNever used a PC with a TV. Always had a proper monitor. In fact I
needed
3.579545 for the color burst. (I don't know about the European
market). 4
times 3.57945 is 14.31818. Divide that by 3 and you get 4.77277.
Couple of
dividers and you save the cost of a 8284 or an extra crystal.
never used any computer with a TV.
I did use computers with a TV monitor, like the Spectrum.
What he says about the reason for the choice of frequencies is correct.
Had a VIC-20 with a TV as a monitor. OK.
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga came
along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 03:07:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga came
along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
In that era people would ask me 'You work with computers.' What kind
should I buy?' I didn't have a good answer. I made my living with
computers but I wasn't sure what Joe Sixpack would do with one.
Some nerds did find uses but there were many TRS-80s, PETs, PC Jrs, TI
99s, and so forth gathering dust because people were buying them in sort
of a madness of crowds.
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga
came along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
In that era people would ask me 'You work with computers.' What kind
should I buy?' I didn't have a good answer. I made my living with
computers but I wasn't sure what Joe Sixpack would do with one.
Some nerds did find uses but there were many TRS-80s, PETs, PC Jrs,
TI 99s, and so forth gathering dust because people were buying them
in sort of a madness of crowds.
(Frankly, I'm of the opinion that "Joe Sixpack" is a myth, a kind of
median figure arrived at by shaving all the corners off of real people
so that they can be more-or-less jammed into a preconceived round hole; unfortunately, it's a myth with a great deal of utility to the Powers
That Be, who have expended a tremendous amount of social-engineering
effort in the last 20 years trying to convince people that the Median
Human is "normal" and what they should want to be. It's encouraging to
see the recent boom in craft hobbies and makerspace groups indicating
that they haven't been quite as successful as I worried they had.)
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 03:07:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga came
along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
In that era people would ask me 'You work with computers.' What kind
should I buy?' I didn't have a good answer. I made my living with
computers but I wasn't sure what Joe Sixpack would do with one.
Some nerds did find uses but there were many TRS-80s, PETs, PC Jrs, TI
99s, and so forth gathering dust because people were buying them in sort
of a madness of crowds.
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 03:07:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga came
along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
In that era people would ask me 'You work with computers.' What kind
should I buy?' I didn't have a good answer. I made my living with
computers but I wasn't sure what Joe Sixpack would do with one.
Some nerds did find uses but there were many TRS-80s, PETs, PC Jrs, TI
99s, and so forth gathering dust because people were buying them in sort
of a madness of crowds.
On 27 Oct 2025 14:26:10 GMT
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
<snip>
I recall my mother, f'rexample, branching out into MIDI arrangement not because she'd had any plans to do so, but because my dad brought home a cast-off Mac from his workplace and we'd coincidentally just bought a
digital piano to replace our bulky old upright. Nothing world-changing,
but a good example of what people learned by just playing around. It's
a shame to see what's become of the industry - for a minute there, we
really did get a little taste of what computer-as-assistive-tool-for- the-individual-mind could do for people...
<snip>--
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 03:07:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga came
along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
In that era people would ask me 'You work with computers.' What kind
should I buy?' I didn't have a good answer. I made my living with
computers but I wasn't sure what Joe Sixpack would do with one.
Some nerds did find uses but there were many TRS-80s, PETs, PC Jrs, TI
99s, and so forth gathering dust because people were buying them in sort
of a madness of crowds.
On 27/10/2025 14:26, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 03:07:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:Well that era answered the question of 'what did people want computers
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga came
along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
In that era people would ask me 'You work with computers.' What kind
should I buy?' I didn't have a good answer. I made my living with
computers but I wasn't sure what Joe Sixpack would do with one.
Some nerds did find uses but there were many TRS-80s, PETs, PC Jrs, TI
99s, and so forth gathering dust because people were buying them in
sort of a madness of crowds.
for'?
On 8 bit machines...arcade games. Free arcade games.
Once the internet took off? Porn.
John Ames wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:
On 27 Oct 2025 14:26:10 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
<snip>
I recall my mother, f'rexample, branching out into MIDI arrangement not
because she'd had any plans to do so, but because my dad brought home a
cast-off Mac from his workplace and we'd coincidentally just bought a
digital piano to replace our bulky old upright. Nothing world-changing,
but a good example of what people learned by just playing around. It's
a shame to see what's become of the industry - for a minute there, we
really did get a little taste of what computer-as-assistive-tool-for-
the-individual-mind could do for people...
The Atari ST and a Casio 8-note keyboard got me started in MIDI.
The Atari ST and a Casio 8-note keyboard got me started in MIDI.
Says something about me that I've never done anything with MIDI or
had any interest in it. otoh, lemme see, I've got 3 acoustic guitars,
one of which is a 12 string, 2 electric guitars, a banjo, a silver
flute, a couple of Irish flutes, a bunch of tin whistles in various
keys, several harmonicas in different keys, an alto recorder, and an
ocarina. Never did figure out the ocarina. Should have went with
MIDI; like e-books it takes a lot less room.
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:31:36 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/10/2025 14:26, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 03:07:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:Well that era answered the question of 'what did people want computers
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga came >>>> along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
In that era people would ask me 'You work with computers.' What kind
should I buy?' I didn't have a good answer. I made my living with
computers but I wasn't sure what Joe Sixpack would do with one.
Some nerds did find uses but there were many TRS-80s, PETs, PC Jrs, TI
99s, and so forth gathering dust because people were buying them in
sort of a madness of crowds.
for'?
On 8 bit machines...arcade games. Free arcade games.
Once the internet took off? Porn.
I'm thinking of a different demographic, what would be comparable to a
boomer today. 'Greatest generation'? According to Wiki, the TI-99/4 was $1150 or the equivalent of $4980 in 2024. The PET would be $4100 in 2024. Apple II? $6740. The 5150 PC, $5410. Even the TRS-80 would be $3110 or
the Amiga at $3786 . The Osborne 1 I bought in '81 was $1795 in '81, or
$6210 today.
The VIC-20 at $1040 2024 dollars was getting into an affordable area.
The people I'm thinking off that could drop $4 or 5K on a computer
probably weren't into arcade games. That's a hell of a lot of quarters.
Maybe mom bought a computer and junior figured out something to do with
it.
B.B. KING LOVES MIDIflown/>
<https://8bitlegends.com/2015/05/16/b-b-king-mr-amiga-blues-has-
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:31:36 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/10/2025 14:26, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 03:07:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:Well that era answered the question of 'what did people want computers
I found the 5150 to be a massive yawn. It wasn't until the Amiga came >>>> along that I got excited enough to buy a new machine.
In that era people would ask me 'You work with computers.' What kind
should I buy?' I didn't have a good answer. I made my living with
computers but I wasn't sure what Joe Sixpack would do with one.
Some nerds did find uses but there were many TRS-80s, PETs, PC Jrs, TI
99s, and so forth gathering dust because people were buying them in
sort of a madness of crowds.
for'?
On 8 bit machines...arcade games. Free arcade games.
Once the internet took off? Porn.
I'm thinking of a different demographic, what would be comparable to a
boomer today. 'Greatest generation'? According to Wiki, the TI-99/4 was $1150 or the equivalent of $4980 in 2024. The PET would be $4100 in 2024. Apple II? $6740. The 5150 PC, $5410. Even the TRS-80 would be $3110 or
the Amiga at $3786 . The Osborne 1 I bought in '81 was $1795 in '81, or
$6210 today.
The VIC-20 at $1040 2024 dollars was getting into an affordable area.
The people I'm thinking off that could drop $4 or 5K on a computer
probably weren't into arcade games. That's a hell of a lot of quarters.
Maybe mom bought a computer and junior figured out something to do with
it.
I got other used laptops and before i I paid about $600 for theDell
Precision refurbished. That came out of Covid supplemental payments
when I found out that they were going to penalize those of us who had >$2000.00 in our bank accounts.
Says something about me that I've never done anything with MIDI or had any interest in it. otoh, lemme see, I've got 3 acoustic guitars, one of which is a 12 string, 2 electric guitars, a banjo, a silver flute, a couple of Irish flutes, a bunch of tin whistles in various keys, several harmonicas
in different keys, an alto recorder, and an ocarina. Never did figure out the ocarina. Should have went with MIDI; like e-books it takes a lot less room.
When the Amiga 1000 was on the market it was nearly $2000 and needed
an expensive monitor. I got the Monitor before the Amiga aand bought a
used A1000 for $100.00 and a keyboard adapter for $20. I spent a few hundred on a used A2000b and spent a lot of money on delacer card, Video card, serial card and a few other things like modems finally I got a 68060 card which took more ram simms than I had the cash for at the time.
I got other used laptops and before i I paid about $600 for
the Dell Precision refurbished. That came out of Covid supplemental
payments when I found out that they were going to penalize those of
us who had >$2000.00 in our bank accounts.
Several printers mostly used and the new ones very short lives
without their own makers' cartridges apparently.
Alas, remember buying an Amiga-1000 (using TWO checks)
and it was nothing but "Guru Meditation" messages all
the damned time. Threw it in a closet and bought a
much cheaper IBM clone instead almost immediately.
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 13:42:51 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
B.B. KING LOVES MIDIflown/>
<https://8bitlegends.com/2015/05/16/b-b-king-mr-amiga-blues-has-
He would... He never could keep time. My favorite blues guy, Lightnin' Hopkins could keep a steady beat but the concept of 12 bar blues was
foreign territory. A bar was as long as it needed to be. He was a street musician and a solo act.
<snip>
The VIC-20 at $1040 2024 dollars was getting into an affordable area.
The people I'm thinking off that could drop $4 or 5K on a computer
probably weren't into arcade games. That's a hell of a lot of quarters.
Maybe mom bought a computer and junior figured out something to do with--
it.
On 2025-10-27, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
When the Amiga 1000 was on the market it was nearly $2000 and needed
<snip>
That sounds a lot like my Amiga history. I spent $2000 for the A1000
in March 1986, as well as $600 for the monitor, $300 for an external
3 1/2" floppy drive, and $600 for an external 5 1/4" floppy drive
(complete with the Transformer, an MS-DOS emulator). Plus lots of
bucks for two A2000s (one for me and one for my wife, 68020 and 68030, finally working up to 68060), and something like $1800 for bridge boards
(286 and 386SX). (Work was going well and I had some money to burn.)
--<snip>
On 27 Oct 2025 20:53:45 GMT
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
The Atari ST and a Casio 8-note keyboard got me started in MIDI.
Says something about me that I've never done anything with MIDI or
had any interest in it. otoh, lemme see, I've got 3 acoustic guitars,
one of which is a 12 string, 2 electric guitars, a banjo, a silver
flute, a couple of Irish flutes, a bunch of tin whistles in various
keys, several harmonicas in different keys, an alto recorder, and an
ocarina. Never did figure out the ocarina. Should have went with
MIDI; like e-books it takes a lot less room.
If it's any consolation, getting into MIDI just means you accumulate
hardware synthesizers instead of/in addition to the above ;)
If it's any consolation, getting into MIDI just means you accumulate hardware synthesizers instead of/in addition to the above ;)
There's a shit-ton of software synthesizer apps for Linux,
Windows, and Mac. But I do have the following hardware:
- Roland MT-32 synth. Bought that living in L.A., from a guy
who was a colleague of Herbie Hancock and who also owned
an Atari ST.
(Softsynths are certainly convenient wrt. space and price, but there's
a certain primal itch with twiddling controls on a dedicated panel that >multipurpose MIDI controllers just don't scratch...)
On 2025-10-28, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Alas, remember buying an Amiga-1000 (using TWO checks)
and it was nothing but "Guru Meditation" messages all
the damned time. Threw it in a closet and bought a
much cheaper IBM clone instead almost immediately.
I threw the buggy software on the trash heap instead,
and replaced it with stuff that didn't scribble all over
memory that didn't belong to it. Admittedly, the lack
of memory protection was a pain - but it was nice to have
real multitasking.
In addition to a couple of regular boxes, I'll spend $300 or so whenever
I need a new (to me) laptop. ThinkPads run Linux well.
Since I was an Atari ST boy I would log onto a Commodore BBS and make
fun of "commode ore". The early days of trolling.
There's a shit-ton of software synthesizer apps for Linux,
Windows, and Mac. But I do have the following hardware:
I use MIDI software to translate melodies from my head to sheet
notation, so that I can then check them and finally convert them to
ASCII, like, can you guess the name of this song (notation only
approximately!)?
I owned a Korg MS-20 and a Korg PS-3100.
I use MIDI software to translate melodies from my head to sheet
notation, so that I can then check them and finally convert them
to ASCII, like, can you guess the name of this song (notation only
approximately!)?
Hah, that rings a vague bell, but I can't place it. I'm curious, what
do you use the ASCII representations for...?
Hah, that rings a vague bell, but I can't place it. I'm curious, what
do you use the ASCII representations for...?
I used the ASCII representation in a German newsgroup to ask for the
name of the song trying to avoid media disruptions like web links in
Usenet posts or binaries in a non-binary group.
Turned out it's, "I Was Kaiser Bill's Batman".
Interesting. I generally notate melodies on my "sketchpad" documents
with note names and a few simple conventions for rhythmic information:
G-G G E-G C' C
...which is imprecise, but it's for my own reference so it's non-
critical.
rbowman wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:
<snip>
The VIC-20 at $1040 2024 dollars was getting into an affordable area.
That was my first computer, bought while in grad school. Also
bought the cassette tape drive and the 300-baud modem cartridge.
Used it and a TV to log into the university system. 22-column
text IIRC. Later bought an assembler cartridge.
Then ditched it all for an Atari ST and Atari printer at
<laughing> Toys 'R Us. Bought the Atari monochrome monitor at a
local computer store; the owner was peeved I hadn't bought the
rest from him. Bought a 10 Mb hard-drive that was as loud as a
vacuum cleaner. I and another Atari club guy opened the ST up
and piggy-backed RAM chips on top the existing chips to get to
1 Mb RAM. I had a hella lotta fun with that ST.
Nowadays my hella-lotta-fun is Linux!
The people I'm thinking off that could drop $4 or 5K on a computer
probably weren't into arcade games. That's a hell of a lot of quarters.
We have certain priorities :-)
Maybe mom bought a computer and junior figured out something to do with
it.
The 'old' popular computers DID build up the craft considerably.
There were suddenly a lot more programmers/designers than the biz/sci environment would have ever created.
On Wed, 29 Oct 2025 02:12:50 -0400
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
The 'old' popular computers DID build up the craft considerably.
There were suddenly a lot more programmers/designers than the biz/sci
environment would have ever created.
Yeah - the *personal* aspect of the personal-computer revolution is the
most noted, and rightly so, but it's important to remember that it was
also how computing went from Big Business to small business, and,
funnily enough, became Big Business in the process. Lotta independent software shops came outta some hobbyist spotting an unfilled niche and cobbling something together to fill it, in those days - I still work
for the remnants of one.
It was a huge explosion of skills that found many (and many
*profitable*) business lines down the road.
Without PCs, well, I think it'd all still be Big Iron and paper punch
tape ...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2025 21:30:48 -0400, c186282 wrote:
It was a huge explosion of skills that found many (and many
*profitable*) business lines down the road.
Without PCs, well, I think it'd all still be Big Iron and paper punch
tape ...
I took a slightly different path via hardware industrial control systems
to early MCUs but I had about zero interest in FORTRAN on System 360
iron.
Hey, it had it's place - an important place. However tastes/interests
vary.
"Industrial"/embedded is very interesting, and useful,
unto itself.
I'm just wondering what 'modern computing' would look like without
the cheap 'home pc' push.
IBMs vision has always been thin clients with everything...again...
running on big iron. MS is going that way too. Works like a champ unless somebody screws up AWS's DNS.
On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 00:49:41 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hey, it had it's place - an important place. However tastes/interests
vary.
"Industrial"/embedded is very interesting, and useful,
unto itself.
I'm just wondering what 'modern computing' would look like without
the cheap 'home pc' push.
Chromebooks... IBMs vision has always been thin clients with everything running on big iron. MS is going that way too. Works like a champ unless somebody screws up AWS's DNS.
On 30/10/2025 06:29, rbowman wrote:
IBMs vision has always been thin clients with everything
running on big iron. MS is going that way too. Works like a champ unless >> somebody screws up AWS's DNS.
...again...
On 10/30/25 02:29, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 00:49:41 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hey, it had it's place - an important place. However
tastes/interests
vary.
"Industrial"/embedded is very interesting, and useful,
unto itself.
I'm just wondering what 'modern computing' would look like without >>> the cheap 'home pc' push.
Chromebooks... IBMs vision has always been thin clients with everything
running on big iron. MS is going that way too. Works like a champ unless >> somebody screws up AWS's DNS.
AND you have a really high speed connection ...
The "big iron" push is all about $$$ and Control, not
freedom and variety and innovation.
On 10/30/25 03:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/10/2025 06:29, rbowman wrote:
IBMs vision has always been thin clients with everything
running on big iron. MS is going that way too. Works like a champ
unless
somebody screws up AWS's DNS.
...again...
Yea ... that's getting more common - and Vlad/Xi are
helping it along.
I see the Azure cloud had a big problem just yesterday.
AWS a couple days before.
On 10/30/25 02:29, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 00:49:41 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hey, it had it's place - an important place. However
tastes/interests vary.
"Industrial"/embedded is very interesting, and useful,
unto itself.
I'm just wondering what 'modern computing' would look like without
the cheap 'home pc' push.
Chromebooks... IBMs vision has always been thin clients with everything
running on big iron. MS is going that way too. Works like a champ
unless somebody screws up AWS's DNS.
AND you have a really high speed connection ...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 11:29:50 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 10/30/25 02:29, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 00:49:41 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hey, it had it's place - an important place. However
tastes/interests vary.
"Industrial"/embedded is very interesting, and useful,
unto itself.
I'm just wondering what 'modern computing' would look like
without the cheap 'home pc' push.
Chromebooks... IBMs vision has always been thin clients with
everything running on big iron. MS is going that way too. Works like
a champ unless somebody screws up AWS's DNS.
AND you have a really high speed connection ...
AOL on dialup. Enuf said.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/business/tech/tech-headlines/ap-ai-is-transforming-how-software-engineers-do-their-jobs-just-dont-call-it-vibe-coding/
Progress ? Progress to doom ?
I have seen many imposed on us and I ignored all of them. The only one I thought was kind of useful was "structured",
which came around where I worked in the early 80s.
On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 16:52:14 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
I have seen many imposed on us and I ignored all of them. The only one I
thought was kind of useful was "structured",
which came around where I worked in the early 80s.
Yeah, back then you had to swear loyalty to top down structured
programming although like the rest of the methodologies it seldom was implemented in a pure fashion.
My favorite is what has been called the yo-yo method. Develop a loose top down view and then work on the bottom implementation to see if it's feasible. Refine the top level, rinse and repeat. They started to call it agile like they'd discovered something new.
On 2025-10-31, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 16:52:14 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
I have seen many imposed on us and I ignored all of them. The only one I >>> thought was kind of useful was "structured",
which came around where I worked in the early 80s.
Yeah, back then you had to swear loyalty to top down structured
programming although like the rest of the methodologies it seldom was
implemented in a pure fashion.
I thought of it as a fad - a potentially useful one, but one that
was often abused. The number of function calls in a program became
a figure of merit, and programs turned into a huge pile of tiny
functions bound together by an impenetrable web of nested calls.
I proclaimed it as the final triumph of bureaucracy: its success
at finally penetrating the world of programming.
My favorite is what has been called the yo-yo method. Develop a loose top
down view and then work on the bottom implementation to see if it's
feasible. Refine the top level, rinse and repeat. They started to call it
agile like they'd discovered something new.
Stan Kelly-Bootle, in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_, offered an ecumenical solution to the "top-down" vs. "bottom-up" conflict with a technique that
he described as "middle-out".
On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 16:52:14 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
I have seen many imposed on us and I ignored all of them. The only one I
thought was kind of useful was "structured",
which came around where I worked in the early 80s.
Yeah, back then you had to swear loyalty to top down structured
programming although like the rest of the methodologies it seldom was implemented in a pure fashion.
My favorite is what has been called the yo-yo method. Develop a loose top down view and then work on the bottom implementation to see if it's
feasible. Refine the top level, rinse and repeat. They started to call it agile like they'd discovered something new.
On 31/10/2025 20:19, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 16:52:14 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
I have seen many imposed on us and I ignored all of them. The only one I >>> thought was kind of useful was "structured",
which came around where I worked in the early 80s.
Yeah, back then you had to swear loyalty to top down structured
programming although like the rest of the methodologies it seldom was
implemented in a pure fashion.
My favorite is what has been called the yo-yo method. Develop a loose top
down view and then work on the bottom implementation to see if it's
feasible. Refine the top level, rinse and repeat. They started to call it
agile like they'd discovered something new.
Agree 100%
A way I now write is to simply write essentially pseudo code, describing
in plain english what I want the code to do, and then turn that into comments with the real code in between.
And to try and farm everything off to subroutines whenever possible. So
that each code block is only half a page if possible.
On 2025-11-01, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 31/10/2025 20:19, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 16:52:14 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
I have seen many imposed on us and I ignored all of them. The only one I >>>> thought was kind of useful was "structured",
which came around where I worked in the early 80s.
Yeah, back then you had to swear loyalty to top down structured
programming although like the rest of the methodologies it seldom was
implemented in a pure fashion.
My favorite is what has been called the yo-yo method. Develop a loose top >>> down view and then work on the bottom implementation to see if it's
feasible. Refine the top level, rinse and repeat. They started to call it >>> agile like they'd discovered something new.
Agree 100%
A way I now write is to simply write essentially pseudo code, describing
in plain english what I want the code to do, and then turn that into
comments with the real code in between.
And to try and farm everything off to subroutines whenever possible. So
that each code block is only half a page if possible.
I saw some code that took that to extremes. That half-page limit
included a huge comment block describing what the function did and
what its arguments were. That left room for half a dozen lines of
real code.
Back in the good old days we had cross-reference utilities to
help keep track of everything. Those seem to have disappeared,
although to be honest a text editor with good searching and
bookmarking eliminates much of the need.
Small modules are a sign of a short attention span. 1/2 :-)
I saw some code that took that to extremes. That half-page limit
included a huge comment block describing what the function did and what
its arguments were. That left room for half a dozen lines of real code.
Back in the good old days we had cross-reference utilities to help keep
track of everything. Those seem to have disappeared, although to be
honest a text editor with good searching and bookmarking eliminates much
of the need.
| Sysop: | DaiTengu |
|---|---|
| Location: | Appleton, WI |
| Users: | 1,075 |
| Nodes: | 10 (0 / 10) |
| Uptime: | 90:34:41 |
| Calls: | 13,798 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 186,989 |
| D/L today: |
5,330 files (1,536M bytes) |
| Messages: | 2,438,212 |