[Deliberate Linux/Windows X-post, this is about hardware.]
Framework Laptop 16 review: the ultimate in modular PCs https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/28/framework-laptop-16-review-modular-pc-keyboard-port-graphics-card
Prices for something actually working start at around £1,699 / €1,919 / $1,699 / A$2,819.
Anyone tried this or anything similar?
As I have some old laptops - Dell Precision M6300s - of which I particularly like the large fairly good quality screens, but they
struggle to run modern OSs without making a really unpleasant noise from their ageing fans, to change which requires a near complete dismantling
of the entire laptop, I am intrigued by the possibilities of a modular design like the above linked.
Constructive comments welcome, especially if based on actual experience.
"Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote
| Framework Laptop 16 review: the ultimate in modular PCs
| https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/28/framework-laptop-16-review-modular-pc-keyboard-port-graphics-card
|
| Prices for something actually working start at around £1,699 / €1,919 /
| $1,699 / A$2,819.
Doesn't this really depend on what you need/want? And what's
it got to do with Linux? This is a Win11 device for playing high end
video games at Starbucks.
[snip]
So it really all depends on what's important to YOU. To my mind
this is grossly overpriced lipstick on a pig. Yet for someone who
dislikes desktops and wants to play the latest GTA on their commute
to work... Maybe it's ideal. But all the swappable factors just look like gimmicks to me. You won't need them. If you did, you can buy your
own USB extenders. Rueing your old fans that are not replaceable is
not a reason to buy an overpriced device merely for replaceability
options.
I ended up building a new desktop, for about $400 total. I hardly
use my laptop, so I certainly didn't need two. And that crappy HP
laptop was going to cost the same as building a real computer, by
the time I bought the add-ons to give it enough ports. And of
course, desktops support all kinds of replaceability. That's never
been yhe point or the forte of laptops. They're liimited and not at
all ergonomic. Their only reason for existing is portability.
On 28/02/2024 13.01, Java Jive wrote:
[Deliberate Linux/Windows X-post, this is about hardware.]
Framework Laptop 16 review: the ultimate in modular PCs
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/28/framework-laptop-16-review-modular-pc-keyboard-port-graphics-card
[snip]
Constructive comments welcome, especially if based on actual experience.
I do get the idea behind it, but much of the exchangeable parts are just attached to a usb hub and the motherboard seems to not be as modular
(for example no cpu on socket for easy cpu exchange), limited graphics
board option. No battery options (battery is based on cpu option) and
not easy to swap. No options on displays.
For a modular laptop, I think it's still too limited, so for me this one ain't end up on my lap, the none modular Tuxedo Laptop would more likely
be my next personal Laptop.
One more thing, you would be just looked into buying replacement parts
from Framework, of course with a 3D printer and a bit reconstruction you should be able to make your own modules.
"Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote
| Framework Laptop 16 review: the ultimate in modular PCs
|
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/28/framework-laptop-16-r >eview-modular-pc-keyboard-port-graphics-card
|
| Prices for something actually working start at around £1,699 / €1,919 /
| $1,699 / A$2,819.
|
Doesn't this really depend on what you need/want? And what's
it got to do with Linux? This is a Win11 device for playing high end
video games at Starbucks. Are you thinking of dual-booting Linux?
What would be the point of that? You're asking a question out of
context, with no indication of what you need, aside from wanting
a quieter fan.
I bought an Asus 19" awhile back, mostly to use for online sites
that require Win10. It's OK. $500. It accommodated an extra SSD.
I wouldn't think of using a laptop without a real mouse, so there's
also that cost. No DVD drive. I had to buy a $35 USB -> Ethernet
adapter.
Recently I was in Staples and they had HPs for $300. I could
hardly afford not to buy one! But then it occured to me that I'd
have to spend another $100 for powered USB hubs, ethernet,
mouse, etc. They keep the price down by reducing ports. But
giving you the extra ports is worth $100, not $1000. And why
would anyone do intensive gaming on a laptop?
So it really all depends on what's important to YOU. To my mind
this is grossly overpriced lipstick on a pig. Yet for someone who
dislikes desktops and wants to play the latest GTA on their commute
to work... Maybe it's ideal. But all the swappable factors just look like >gimmicks to me. You won't need them. If you did, you can buy your
own USB extenders. Rueing your old fans that are not replaceable is
not a reason to buy an overpriced device merely for replaceability
options.
I ended up building a new desktop, for about $400 total. I hardly
use my laptop, so I certainly didn't need two. And that crappy HP
laptop was going to cost the same as building a real computer, by
the time I bought the add-ons to give it enough ports. And of
course, desktops support all kinds of replaceability. That's never
been yhe point or the forte of laptops. They're liimited and not at
all ergonomic. Their only reason for existing is portability.
[Deliberate Linux/Windows X-post, this is about hardware.]
Framework Laptop 16 review: the ultimate in modular PCs
[...]
Anyone tried this or anything similar?
What is really needed is for the manufacturers to agree interchangeable >laptop component standards such as used to exist, but perhaps less so
now if my last build-your-own experience was anything to go by, for >desktops.
[...]I continue to be surprised when such a standard does arise _and
is implemented widely_ - such as ISA, ATX, PCI, and USB (though that
last has so many connectors that it's lost its early attraction).
On 28/02/2024 12:44, J.O. Aho wrote:
On 28/02/2024 13.01, Java Jive wrote:
[Deliberate Linux/Windows X-post, this is about hardware.]
Framework Laptop 16 review: the ultimate in modular PCs
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/28/framework-laptop-16-review-modular-pc-keyboard-port-graphics-card [snip]
Constructive comments welcome, especially if based on actual experience.
I do get the idea behind it, but much of the exchangeable parts are just attached to a usb hub and the motherboard seems to not be as modular (for example no cpu on socket for easy cpu exchange), limited graphics board option. No battery options (battery is based on cpu option) and not easy to swap. No options on displays.
For a modular laptop, I think it's still too limited, so for me this one ain't end up on my lap, the none modular Tuxedo Laptop would more likely be my next personal Laptop.
Fair comment, I think.
One more thing, you would be just looked into buying replacement parts from Framework, of course with a 3D printer and a bit reconstruction you should be able to make your own modules.
Yes, that's a very good point. Modularity on its own is not enough, what is needed also is interchangeability of parts for different makes of laptop, so that, to return for convenience to the fan example, a fan module will be not only easy to replace, but the same as those for other makes of laptop, which would mean that it would be economically worthwhile to provide replacement modules of reasonably quality, which is definitely not the situation at present.
What is really needed is for the manufacturers to agree interchangeable laptop component standards such as used to exist, but perhaps less so now if my last build-your-own experience was anything to go by, for desktops.
On 2/28/2024 8:52 AM, Java Jive wrote:
On 28/02/2024 12:44, J.O. Aho wrote:
On 28/02/2024 13.01, Java Jive wrote:
[Deliberate Linux/Windows X-post, this is about hardware.]I do get the idea behind it, but much of the exchangeable parts are just attached to a usb hub and the motherboard seems to not be as modular (for example no cpu on socket for easy cpu exchange), limited graphics board option. No battery options (battery is based on cpu option) and not easy to swap. No options on displays.
Framework Laptop 16 review: the ultimate in modular PCs
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/28/framework-laptop-16-review-modular-pc-keyboard-port-graphics-card [snip]
Constructive comments welcome, especially if based on actual experience. >>>
For a modular laptop, I think it's still too limited, so for me this one ain't end up on my lap, the none modular Tuxedo Laptop would more likely be my next personal Laptop.
Fair comment, I think.
One more thing, you would be just looked into buying replacement parts from Framework, of course with a 3D printer and a bit reconstruction you should be able to make your own modules.
Yes, that's a very good point. Modularity on its own is not enough, what is needed also is interchangeability of parts for different makes of laptop, so that, to return for convenience to the fan example, a fan module will be not only easy to replace, but the same as those for other makes of laptop, which would mean that it would be economically worthwhile to provide replacement modules of reasonably quality, which is definitely not the situation at present.
What is really needed is for the manufacturers to agree interchangeable laptop component standards such as used to exist, but perhaps less so now if my last build-your-own experience was anything to go by, for desktops.
You're asking this in the Win7 group.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.680599.0.html
"OS support is limited to 64-bit editions of Windows 11 and Windows 10 and of course to Linux.
the chip ... is ... soldered down" <=== irrelevant for a module
"TSMC 4 nm process"
"Ryzen AI" "AVX-512"
As long as there is only one supplier of parts, they can charge
anything they want for some "future" module.
If a "big company" made a bet on modular computers (let's say Google
did it), we would not know anything about when they would shut down
the business.
If a "small company" makes a similar bet, and really is dedicated to
the concept, then the question would be, does it have the financial legs
to succeed. And we all know what the failure rate of tech companies is.
On 2024-02-28, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
[...]I continue to be surprised when such a standard does arise _and
is implemented widely_ - such as ISA, ATX, PCI, and USB (though that
last has so many connectors that it's lost its early attraction).
There are ... 5 total (6 if you count the short-lived "USB-3 Micro-B >Connector"), over the span of 25 years. That's honestly not very bad at
all, and a far sight better than earlier options where everything was >different. Nowadays, it's all converging back to USB-C, so ...
In message <slrnutuqfl.mun.dan@djph.net> at Wed, 28 Feb 2024 17:14:29,
Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes
On 2024-02-28, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Type A - the default you get on PCs/laptops. Type B - the almost square
[...]I continue to be surprised when such a standard does arise _and
is implemented widely_ - such as ISA, ATX, PCI, and USB (though that
last has so many connectors that it's lost its early attraction).
There are ... 5 total (6 if you count the short-lived "USB-3 Micro-B >>Connector"), over the span of 25 years. That's honestly not very bad at >>all, and a far sight better than earlier options where everything was >>different. Nowadays, it's all converging back to USB-C, so ...
one you get on printers and _some_ scanners. At least three small non-turn-over-able ones (at least two of which I always feel are
susceptible to easy damage). Type C. That's just the mechanical ones,
before you get into the extra connections, varying speeds, varying power capabilities..
But at least it's _sort of_ a standard, in that - even though it may
limit you to the lowest speed/power - you can use adapters. Not like the multiple _incompatible_ variants of say video, and ISA/PCI/whatever.
"Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote
| > Doesn't this really depend on what you need/want? And what's
| > it got to do with Linux? This is a Win11 device for playing high end
| > video games at Starbucks.
|
| No, it's a laptop capable in principle of running any OS, and two of my
| laptops dual-boot into Linux & Windows. You may not like Linux,
It's not about liking Linux. What I'm questioning is
whether you need a powerful laptop for whaty you're
doing. If you boot to Linux then the answer is no. If
you want to play GTA then maybe the answer is yes.
You askid this in Linux and Win7, yet it's a Win11 laptop.
| Now you're seeming to want to start a flame war between adherents of
| desktops and laptops.
You're a bit touchy. All I'm saying is that people want and need
different things, and you're asking about whether a particular device
is a good deal without any indication of what you expect to use
it for. You could ask whether a Lexus is a good car. Well, that depends.
Do you have that much money to spare? Do you rarely drive more
than 30 miles? Do you need to haul lumber? (And no, I'm not trying
to start an EV "flame war".)
| FWIW, my last attempt, over a decade ago after
| having done it successfully for many years previously, at building my
| own desktop encountered a myriad of unexpected problems, including but
| by no means confined to ...
| - A motherboard that fried itself when a fan stopped working [*];
| - Mismatched memory [*]
| - The only locally available make of modern PSU with enough grunt
| for the new motherboard having leads too short for my tower case;
| - Others I have long since forgotten
| ... and, even all those years ago, as I recall the cost of that mess was
| considerably more than your $400.
It can be risky. I once had a problem where either the MB or
CPU was faulty, and Microcenter refused to accept a return.
I suspect that quality control is not great with these things.
So you just have to hope you don't get lemons. In that respect,
something like a Dell is a safer bet. But I enjoy building them,
and in the long run they're cheaper.
[...]
I have never seen type b.
In message <slrnutuqfl.mun.dan@djph.net> at Wed, 28 Feb 2024 17:14:29,
Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes
On 2024-02-28, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Type A - the default you get on PCs/laptops. Type B - the almost square
[...]I continue to be surprised when such a standard does arise _and
is implemented widely_ - such as ISA, ATX, PCI, and USB (though that
last has so many connectors that it's lost its early attraction).
There are ... 5 total (6 if you count the short-lived "USB-3 Micro-B >>Connector"), over the span of 25 years. That's honestly not very bad at >>all, and a far sight better than earlier options where everything was >>different. Nowadays, it's all converging back to USB-C, so ...
one you get on printers and _some_ scanners. At least three small non-turn-over-able ones (at least two of which I always feel are
susceptible to easy damage). Type C. That's just the mechanical ones,
before you get into the extra connections, varying speeds, varying power capabilities..
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.]
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote at 02:59 this Thursday (GMT):
In message <slrnutuqfl.mun.dan@djph.net> at Wed, 28 Feb 2024 17:14:29,
Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes
On 2024-02-28, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Type A - the default you get on PCs/laptops. Type B - the almost square
[...]I continue to be surprised when such a standard does arise _and
is implemented widely_ - such as ISA, ATX, PCI, and USB (though that
last has so many connectors that it's lost its early attraction).
There are ... 5 total (6 if you count the short-lived "USB-3 Micro-B
Connector"), over the span of 25 years. That's honestly not very bad at >>> all, and a far sight better than earlier options where everything was
different. Nowadays, it's all converging back to USB-C, so ...
one you get on printers and _some_ scanners. At least three small
non-turn-over-able ones (at least two of which I always feel are
susceptible to easy damage). Type C. That's just the mechanical ones,
before you get into the extra connections, varying speeds, varying power
capabilities..
But at least it's _sort of_ a standard, in that - even though it may
limit you to the lowest speed/power - you can use adapters. Not like the
multiple _incompatible_ variants of say video, and ISA/PCI/whatever.
I have never seen type b.
On 2024-02-29, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
In message <slrnutuqfl.mun.dan@djph.net> at Wed, 28 Feb 2024 17:14:29,
Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes
On 2024-02-28, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Type A - the default you get on PCs/laptops. Type B - the almost square
[...]I continue to be surprised when such a standard does arise _and
is implemented widely_ - such as ISA, ATX, PCI, and USB (though that
last has so many connectors that it's lost its early attraction).
There are ... 5 total (6 if you count the short-lived "USB-3 Micro-B
Connector"), over the span of 25 years. That's honestly not very bad at >>> all, and a far sight better than earlier options where everything was
different. Nowadays, it's all converging back to USB-C, so ...
one you get on printers and _some_ scanners. At least three small
non-turn-over-able ones (at least two of which I always feel are
susceptible to easy damage). Type C. That's just the mechanical ones,
before you get into the extra connections, varying speeds, varying power
capabilities..
Yeah, thought you were talking about the mechanical connectors moreso
than "well, we have USB1.1, USB2, USB3[.n] ... ". At least it's mostly
all backwards-compatible down to USB1.1 on the protocol side :)
On 29/02/24 04:50, candycanearter07 wrote:
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.]
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote at 02:59 this Thursday (GMT):
In message <slrnutuqfl.mun.dan@djph.net> at Wed, 28 Feb 2024 17:14:29,
Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes
On 2024-02-28, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Type A - the default you get on PCs/laptops. Type B - the almost square
[...]I continue to be surprised when such a standard does arise _and >>>>> is implemented widely_ - such as ISA, ATX, PCI, and USB (though that >>>>> last has so many connectors that it's lost its early attraction).
There are ... 5 total (6 if you count the short-lived "USB-3 Micro-B
Connector"), over the span of 25 years. That's honestly not very bad at >>>> all, and a far sight better than earlier options where everything was
different. Nowadays, it's all converging back to USB-C, so ...
one you get on printers and _some_ scanners. At least three small
non-turn-over-able ones (at least two of which I always feel are
susceptible to easy damage). Type C. That's just the mechanical ones,
before you get into the extra connections, varying speeds, varying power >>> capabilities..
But at least it's _sort of_ a standard, in that - even though it may
limit you to the lowest speed/power - you can use adapters. Not like the >>> multiple _incompatible_ variants of say video, and ISA/PCI/whatever.
I have never seen type b.
Type B is a good choice for large devices, such as printers, which have detachable USB cables - and that's what it's designed for. It's
physically much sturdier than micro-USB. It might get replaced with type
C or it might not.
Of course, modern printers are probably trying to sell you on some
wireless cloudshit instead of just being printers.
"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
|
| But the Dell came from a factory too.
|
| You're probably thinking that Sparkle Ponies live
| in a Dell factory.
|
:) I figure that Dell doesn't want returns, so they're probably
doing a lot of testing with components, to make sure they're
making a stable choice. I'm making a slightly educated guess
and hoping for the best.
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