• The Z1 election

    From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to All on Sun Jun 3 07:50:40 2018
    Another question that concerns the entire FidoNet community is this:

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    Region 10
    1:103/17 Dupe address nix.synchro.net;nix.synchro.net 1:218/101 Server Lookup Failed bbs.domotron.net
    1:218/315 Server Lookup Failed we6jbo.synchro.net
    1:214/559 Bad Phone Number 000-00-00-00-00

    Region 11
    1:120/310 Dupe address bbs.ghostopera.org;bbs.ghostopera.org 1:120/544 Dupe address ftn.rocasa.net;ftn.rocasa.net;198.144.184.12 1:120/602 Server Lookup Failed landoftheloungelizards.com
    1:226/50 Server Lookup Failed bbs.nitemarecafe.com
    1:2215/10 IP flag, No data IP

    Region 12
    1:229/107 Server Lookup Failed thecubebbs.darktech.org
    1:229/500 Server Lookup Failed ve3kpv.net
    1:229/981 Dupe address bbs.digitalgatehouse.com;bbs.digitalgatehouse.com 1:229/1253 Server Lookup Failed the19thhole.darktech.org
    1:249/206 Dupe address mccarragher.org;mccarragher.org 1:249/207 Dupe address bbs.jonwatson.ca;bbs.jonwatson.ca

    Region 13
    1:13/2 Server Lookup Failed wc4.winserver.org
    1:109/201 Dupe address bbs.cyberchatnet.com;bbs.cyberchatnet.com
    1:109/201 Server Lookup Failed bbs.cyberchatnet.com
    1:109/567 Dupe address bbsdoors.com;www.bbsdoors.com
    1:261/20 Server Lookup Failed wc4.winserver.org
    1:261/1305 Server Lookup Failed technoquarry.com
    1:267/1 Server Lookup Failed yurykalinin.servemp3.com
    1:267/69 Server Lookup Failed bbs.doilidov.com
    1:267/151 Server Lookup Failed oceanbbs.dyndns.org
    1:267/153 Server Lookup Failed amachat.org
    1:267/375 Server Lookup Failed warriorbbs.dyndns.org
    1:275/91 Bad Phone Number 000-0-0-0-0
    1:275/98 Server Lookup Failed bbs.twixted.net
    1:275/201 Server Lookup Failed bbs.cyberchatnet.com

    Region 14
    1:282/1050 Server Lookup Failed dkbbs.shensey.com
    1:282/1055 Server Lookup Failed melon.rlaprise.net
    1:282/1058 Server Lookup Failed oldhabitsbbs.com
    1:299/5 Server Lookup Failed alorynavalon.ddns.net
    1:300/4 Server Lookup Failed b-o-g.net
    1:300/6 Server Lookup Failed drac.synchro.net
    1:298/26 Port in INA INA:vintagebbsing.com:24555
    1:298/27 Port in INA INA:vintagebbsing.com:24556
    1:298/28 Port in INA INA:vintagebbsing.com:24557

    Region 15
    1:114/271 Server Lookup Failed bbs.dbackbbs.com
    1:114/365 Default port IBN:24554
    1:114/365 Server Lookup Failed kellys.synchro.net
    1:114/464 Server Lookup Failed torchwood-3.dyndns.org
    1:114/480 Server Lookup Failed theechozone.com
    1:114/487 Server Lookup Failed novabbs.org
    1:114/501 Server Lookup Failed acme-anvil.darktech.org
    1:114/625 Server Lookup Failed therealmbbs.com
    1:114/701 Default port IBN:24554
    1:128/3 Server Lookup Failed asgard-bbs.net
    1:305/0 Port in INA INA:9600
    1:305/2 Port in INA INA:deadbeatz.org:IBN
    1:305/2 Server Lookup Failed deadbeatz.org
    1:317/0 Port in INA INA:9600
    1:317/2 Server Lookup Failed tbbs.homeip.net

    Region 16
    1:322/320 Server Lookup Failed lostcryp.synchro.net

    Region 17
    1:138/389 No Address
    1:138/389 Server Lookup Failed f389.n138.z1.binkp.net
    1:138/393 Bad Phone Number 000-0-0-0
    1:153/150 Server Lookup Failed timecachinebbs.mooo.com
    1:340/200 Server Lookup Failed tinfoil.synchro.net
    1:340/201 Server Lookup Failed fluxcap.dynv6.net
    1:340/700 Server Lookup Failed bbs.chernobylnetworks.ru
    1:340/900 Server Lookup Failed bbs.realms-online.org
    1:342/16 Server Lookup Failed jandro1000.no-ip.biz
    1:342/17 Server Lookup Failed undermine.ddns.net
    1:342/41 Server Lookup Failed pcgames.synchro.net

    Region 18
    1:116/28 Dupe address magnum.synchro.net;magnum.synchro.net 1:116/28 Server Lookup Failed magnum.synchro.net
    1:116/60 Server Lookup Failed opendoor.synchro.net
    1:116/116 Server Lookup Failed bbs.lmbh.org
    1:116/739 Server Lookup Failed am1620.servebbs.net
    1:116/4148 Server Lookup Failed kj4tkv.org
    1:123/52 Server Lookup Failed kiabbs.com
    1:135/375 Server Lookup Failed bills.synchro.net

    Region 19
    1:124/0 Port both IBN and INA IBN:pb.darktech.org:24555 INA:pb.darktech.org:24
    1:124/5009 Server Lookup Failed FMLYNET.DYNDNS.ORG
    1:124/5014 Port both IBN and INA IBN:pb.darktech.org:24555 INA:pb.darktech.org:24
    1:124/5015 Default port IBN:pb.darktech.org:24554
    1:124/5015 Port both IBN and INA IBN:pb.darktech.org:24554 INA:pb.darktech.org:1023
    1:124/5016 Default port IBN:ipv4.endofthelinebbs.com:24554 1:124/5016 Dupe address ipv4.endofthelinebbs.com:24554;ipv4.endofthelinebbs.com:24554
    1:130/215 Server Lookup Failed bbs.bbshub.net
    1:130/1015 Server Lookup Failed klonezonebbs.zapto.org






    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jun 3 00:06:49 2018
    Hi Bj”rn -- on Jun 03 2018 at 07:50, you wrote:

    1:138/389 No Address
    1:138/389 Server Lookup Failed f389.n138.z1.binkp.net
    1:138/393 Bad Phone Number 000-0-0-0
    1:153/150 Server Lookup Failed timecachinebbs.mooo.com

    Thank you for pointing this out - My (NC153) error in typing, and will be fixed
    in the next nodelist. Dunno why no-one else noticed!

    1:340/200 Server Lookup Failed tinfoil.synchro.net
    1:340/201 Server Lookup Failed fluxcap.dynv6.net
    1:340/700 Server Lookup Failed bbs.chernobylnetworks.ru
    1:340/900 Server Lookup Failed bbs.realms-online.org
    1:342/16 Server Lookup Failed jandro1000.no-ip.biz
    1:342/17 Server Lookup Failed undermine.ddns.net
    1:342/41 Server Lookup Failed pcgames.synchro.net

    I'll ask the NCs of 138, 340, and 342 to investigate (Wearing RC17 hat). Again,
    my thanks for the advice.




    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Dallas Hinton on Sun Jun 3 09:49:07 2018
    Again, my thanks for the advice.

    You are quite welcome, my friend. Unlike what some people are saying, we aim
    to please -- as one RC to another. 8-)



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Dallas Hinton on Sun Jun 3 10:01:25 2018
    Dunno why no-one else noticed!

    I might add (to my previous reply) that our intrepid nodelist prowler, Kees van Eeten, has posted lists like this several times the last couple of years, but your ZC has ignored them completely.

    It's wonderful to see a Z1 RC (and future Z1C?) that actually takes the list
    seriously. Kudos!



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to All on Sun Jun 3 09:41:51 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Sunday June 03 2018 07:50, you wrote to All:

    Another question that concerns the entire FidoNet community is this:

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    nlcheckw32 1.00 beta 2017.12.30, Nodelist check utility
    (c) 2017, Michiel van der Vlist, PA0MMV (2:280/5555)
    Noncommercial use allowed.
    Running in mode 0
    Reading input from: zone1.145
    Writing output to: zone1.999
    All done! 492 nodes read, 20 flagged as ;E .

    ;E ,504,Stockdale_Computer,Bakersfield_CA,Lance_Cooper,-Unpublished-,300,CM,INA:transx@st ock dalecomputer.com,ITX
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,1,UUCP_Gateway,Louisville_KY,Allen_Prunty,-Unpublished-,9600,XA,V34,V32T
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_Sysop,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_NE,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_KS,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_FidoNet_Node_Request,Anywhere_US,New_Sysop,-Unpublished-,9600,XA ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,9600
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,389,Shurato's_Heavenly_Sphere,Boise_ID,Marty_Kazmaier,-Unpublished-,300,XA,IBN,IFT,IT X
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Net_153,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300,CM,MO
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Node_Applicant,Net_340,New_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300,MO
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E Host,387,South_Central_Texas_Net,San_Antonio_TX,Deceased,-Unpublished-,300,XA
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,99,New_Fidonet_Applicant,San_Antonio_TX,New_Sysop,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,12,Fire_on_the_bayou_BBS,New_Orleans_LA,Joe_Bruchis,-Unpublished-,300,MO,XA ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Bj?rn Felten on Sun Jun 3 03:18:12 2018
    Where is Z2's deadwood list?

    Another question that concerns the entire FidoNet community is this:

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    What is the Z2 future plans? Now that mobile phones are much more efficient, Internet is every where, I dont see this problem going away. So, what is Zone 2
    doing to fix their deadwood problem?

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jun 3 05:10:42 2018

    On 2018 Jun 03 10:01:24, you wrote to Dallas Hinton:

    Dunno why no-one else noticed!

    I might add (to my previous reply) that our intrepid nodelist prowler, Kees van Eeten, has posted lists like this several times the last
    couple of years, but your ZC has ignored them completely.

    what is the ZC supposed to do about it?? edit it herself? bullshit... and if the RC ignores the ZC's message about it? fire them? bullshit... and if the NC ignores the RC's message about it? fire them? again bullshit... it is too hard to keep the folks we have now but some of ""you"" seem to feel that we should be kicking folks out instead of trying to retain them... i've got one NC that's
    not responsive at all and another that's only partially responsive... i will not fire either one of them or dump their nets because of their failure to respond... give that head a shake and rearrange those rocks, eh?

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Is there an alcoholic beverage made from oat bran?
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 3 05:16:38 2018

    On 2018 Jun 03 09:41:50, you wrote to All:

    ;E ,504,Stockdale_Computer,Bakersfield_CA,Lance_Cooper,-Unpublished-,300,CM
    ,INA:transx@st ock dalecomputer.com,ITX ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,1,UUCP_Gateway,Louisville_KY,Allen_Prunty,-Unpublished-,9600,XA,V34,V32T
    ;
    E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_Sysop,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_NE,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_KS,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_FidoNet_Node_Request,Anywhere_US,New_Sysop,-Unpublished-,9600,XA ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,9600 ;E
    --
    non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_UT,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,389,Shurato's_Heavenly_Sphere,Boise_ID,Marty_Kazmaier,-Unpublished-,300,XA
    ,IBN,IFT,IT X ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Net_153,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300,CM,MO ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Node_Applicant,Net_340,New_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300,MO ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E Host,387,South_Central_Texas_Net,San_Antonio_TX,Deceased,-Unpublished-,300,
    XA ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,99,New_Fidonet_Applicant,San_Antonio_TX,New_Sysop,-Unpublished-,300 ;E
    --
    non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,12,Fire_on_the_bayou_BBS,New_Orleans_LA,Joe_Bruchis,-Unpublished-,300,MO,X
    A ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --

    looks like at least one someone turned on "Allow -Unpublished- without PVT" in their makenlng settings...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Wanted: Hair cutter. Excellent growth potential.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Sun Jun 3 12:02:55 2018
    i will not fire either one of them or dump their nets because of their failure to respond...

    We know. That's the reason that major parts of the Z1 nodelist is totally corrupt.

    Hopefully you'll get a Z1 nodelist clerk that takes the nodelist more seriously than your "keeping my friends unharmed at any cost" attitude.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Sun Jun 3 12:45:07 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Sunday June 03 2018 05:10, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

    i've got one NC that's not responsive at all and another that's only partially responsive... i will not fire either one of them or dump
    their nets because of their failure to respond...

    Then you fail to do your job. The prime responsibility of the *Cs is to keep the nodelist accurate and up to date. If an NC fails to do his/her part, then it is the responsibility of the RC to kick the NC's butt. If that does not corect the situation, the NC should be replaced, If no replacement can be found, the RC should disband the net and move any remaining active nodes to neighbour nets. An RC not willing to do the dirty work is unfit for the job. He/she should be replaced by the ZC.

    Soft healers make stinking wounds.

    Let us hope the next ZC1 is not a soft healer.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Sun Jun 3 12:52:33 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Sunday June 03 2018 05:16, you wrote to me:

    Host,387,South_Central_Texas_Net,San_Antonio_TX,Deceased,
    -Unpublished-,300, XA
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E

    looks like at least one someone turned on "Allow -Unpublished- without PVT" in their makenlng settings...

    "Allowunpub 1" is not an excuse to list unconnectable systems...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jun 3 10:23:40 2018

    Again, my thanks for the advice.

    You are quite welcome, my friend. Unlike what some people are saying,
    we aim to please -- as one RC to another. 8-)

    Once, at a sanitary location for men, I read the following note from the cleaning crew:

    " We aim to please.
    You aim too, please"

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Phil Kimble on Mon Jun 4 00:04:26 2018
    Hello Phil,

    Where is Z2's deadwood list?

    Somewhere over the rainbow.

    Another question that concerns the entire FidoNet community is this:

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    What is the Z2 future plans?

    Answering a question with a question is not an answer.

    But I will tell you what Z2 is doing, as per my own observations.
    With the exception of Z1, every zone has moved forward, building a
    better FidoNet for us all. Rather than remain stuck in the past,
    relying on an outdated structure that is no longer needed or
    wanted, sysops from all over the world (including many in Z1)
    have adopted the FidoWeb as their main means of communication.
    Also, the complete distancing of themselves from private elists
    and echolists, along with rejection of P4 as a mandate, have
    helped bring FidoNet into the 21st century.

    Now that mobile phones are much more efficient, Internet is every where, I dont see this problem going away.

    Technology is always changing. How we decide to use that technology,
    and for what purpose, is what we should all be concerned about. In
    some cases, technology can be used in positive ways to help FidoNet
    grow. But in some cases, it may be best to retain older ways of doing
    things.

    For instance, when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, flooding
    the city, many residents were stranded. Ham radio operators were
    able to help where others could not. As a result, many people
    were saved.

    FidoNet should be backwards-compatable, but only to a point.
    Nobody uses stuff made 40 years ago, but some might still use
    stuff made 25 years ago. Not all devices are capable of doing
    what modern devices can do. Some folks still rely on dial-up.

    So, what is Zone 2 doing to fix their deadwood problem?

    Sysops in Zone 2 do what needs to be done in that regard.
    The same as sysops in Zone 3 and Zone 4. As such, there is
    no excuse for sysops in Zone 1 not to do the same.

    --Lee

    --
    Erections, That's Our Game

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 4 00:04:31 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    i will not fire either one of them or dump their nets because of their
    failure to respond...

    We know. That's the reason that major parts of the Z1 nodelist is totally corrupt.

    Hopefully you'll get a Z1 nodelist clerk that takes the nodelist more seriously than your "keeping my friends unharmed at any cost" attitude.

    He declined the nomination.

    Some folks can dish it out, but cannot take it.

    We should all learn to be patient with such folk.

    And smile.

    Unless you are talking to a Korean.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 4 00:04:36 2018
    Hello mark,

    Dunno why no-one else noticed!

    I might add (to my previous reply) that our intrepid nodelist prowler,
    Kees van Eeten, has posted lists like this several times the last
    couple of years, but your ZC has ignored them completely.

    what is the ZC supposed to do about it?? edit it herself? bullshit...

    Responsibilities of Z1C (according to The Rules) -

    * To compile the nodelists from all of the regions in the zone,
    and create the master nodelist and difference file

    * To represent zone 1 on the Zone Coordinator Council

    * See Policy 4 for further details

    IOW, the ZIC has no responsibilities except whatever he/she says.

    --Lee

    --
    Often Licked, Never Beaten

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jun 3 23:17:48 2018

    On 2018 Jun 03 12:02:54, you wrote to me:

    i will not fire either one of them or dump their nets because of their
    failure to respond...

    We know. That's the reason that major parts of the Z1 nodelist is
    totally corrupt.

    corrupt? that's pretty strong language to be using...

    Hopefully you'll get a Z1 nodelist clerk that takes the nodelist more seriously than your "keeping my friends unharmed at any cost"
    attitude.

    it is a fucking HOBBY! get a life...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... It all depends on the number of pancakes on your doghouse.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 3 23:22:38 2018

    On 2018 Jun 03 12:45:06, you wrote to me:

    i've got one NC that's not responsive at all and another that's only
    partially responsive... i will not fire either one of them or dump
    their nets because of their failure to respond...

    Then you fail to do your job. The prime responsibility of the *Cs is
    to keep the nodelist accurate and up to date.

    wrong...

    The Network Coordinator is responsible for maintaining the list of
    nodes for the network, and for forwarding netmail sent to members of
    the network from other FidoNet nodes.

    [...]

    The Regional Coordinator maintains the list of independent nodes in the region and accepts nodelists from the Network Coordinators in the
    region. These are compiled to create a regional nodelist, which is then sent to the Zone Coordinator. A Regional Coordinator does not perform message-forwarding services for any nodes in the region.

    [...]

    The Zone Coordinator compiles the nodelists from all of the regions in
    the zone, and creates the master nodelist and difference file, which is then distributed over FidoNet in the zone. A Zone Coordinator does not perform message-forwarding services for any nodes in the zone.


    where do you see "accuracy" and "up to date" mentioned??


    If an NC fails to do his/her part, then it is the responsibility of
    the RC to kick the NC's butt.

    you do it your way and stay over there... we'll do it our way and stay over here...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... At a Redneck Thanksgiving: only condiment is ketchup.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 3 23:30:34 2018

    On 2018 Jun 03 12:52:32, you wrote to me:

    Host,387,South_Central_Texas_Net,San_Antonio_TX,Deceased,
    -Unpublished-,300, XA
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E

    looks like at least one someone turned on "Allow -Unpublished- without
    PVT" in their makenlng settings...

    "Allowunpub 1" is not an excuse to list unconnectable systems...

    i didn't say it was... i only said that apparently it is turned on somewhere...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... The John McCain of 2000 wouldn't vote for the Johm McCain of today.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jun 3 18:50:06 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Bj”rn Felten to Dallas Hinton on Sun Jun 03 2018 09:49 am

    You are quite welcome, my friend. Unlike what some people are saying, we aim to please -- as one RC to another. 8-)

    No problem but yo had an old nodlist for some of mine. Not sureif it was a daily vs wekly issue.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 3 19:14:55 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to All on Sun Jun 03 2018 09:41 am

    Another question that concerns the entire FidoNet community is this:

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    nlcheckw32 1.00 beta 2017.12.30, Nodelist check utility
    (c) 2017, Michiel van der Vlist, PA0MMV (2:280/5555)
    Noncommercial use allowed.
    Running in mode 0
    Reading input from: zone1.145
    Writing output to: zone1.999
    All done! 492 nodes read, 20 flagged as ;E .

    ;E ,504,Stockdale_Computer,Bakersfield_CA,Lance_Cooper,-Unpublished-,300,CM,I NA:transx@stockdalecomputer.com,ITX ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect
    info -- ;E ,1,UUCP_Gateway,Louisville_KY,Allen_Prunty,-Unpublished-,9600,XA,V34,V32T ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_Sysop,-Unpublished-,300 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info -- ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_SysOp,-Unpublished-,300 ;E --

    Frankly this has NOTHING to do wth the election at all. It's smoke and
    mirrors to pretend so.

    The UUCP is an old gate style entry. It's actually got the proper connection data. You shuld know that.

    The ,9999 entries are based on an older stricter interpretation of P4 that Z2 barely used at all.You were supposed to setup as that net number and send netmail from it to gain entry.

    It's an area where P4 could us an update.

    xxcarol

    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 4 14:23:56 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Sunday June 03 2018 23:22, you wrote to me:

    Then you fail to do your job. The prime responsibility of the *Cs
    is to keep the nodelist accurate and up to date.

    wrong...

    With that attitude you should not be a *C. I sure hope the Z1 sysops have the good sense to not elect you as ZC1.

    where do you see "accuracy" and "up to date" mentioned??

    You should read the whole document.

    you do it your way and stay over there... we'll do it our way and stay over here...

    I wish we could. Sometimes I wish we could build a firewall around Z1 and leave
    them to do their thing in splendid isolation... :(


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Jun 4 15:47:48 2018
    Hello Carol,

    On Sunday June 03 2018 19:14, you wrote to me:

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    ;E -- ,1,UUCP_Gateway,Louisville_KY,Allen_Prunty,-Unpublished-,9600,
    XA,V34,V32T
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_Sysop,-Unpublished-,3
    00 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --

    Frankly this has NOTHING to do wth the election at all. It's smoke
    and mirrors to pretend so.

    Are you the appointed censor for questions to the candidates?

    I say that since the ZC is at the top of the chain of responsiblity for the nodelist, it is a relevent question.

    The UUCP is an old gate style entry. It's actually got the proper connection data. You shuld know that.

    I see a V34 and a V32T flag, and a baud rate >300, suggesting modem capability.
    But no telephone number. I see no IP protocol flag and no host name or IP address. There is no connect info. According to FTS-5000, 5.3. it should have the Pvt keyword.

    The ,9999 entries are based on an older stricter interpretation of P4
    that Z2 barely used at all.You were supposed to setup as that net
    number and send netmail from it to gain entry.

    Carol I am not a newby that joined Fidonet yesterday. I AM aware of the use of net/9999! But those net/9999 numbers should not be in the nodelist as they are ONLY used by the applicant and can not be used by others to connect to or to send mail to. If the NC really can not suppress the urge to list it, at least he/she should use the Pvt keyword to make it technically correct.

    It's an area where P4 could us an update.

    P4 is not the problem. It is uncaring or ignorant NCs and a *C structure unwilling or unable to educate them that is the problem.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 4 12:09:36 2018

    On 2018 Jun 04 14:23:56, you wrote to me:

    Then you fail to do your job. The prime responsibility of the *Cs is
    to keep the nodelist accurate and up to date.

    wrong...

    With that attitude you should not be a *C.

    that's not your decision... with your attitude, you shouldn't be a *C, either...

    you should note, also, that i didn't say that that wasn't a valid goal... only that it is not stated as such in policy where the duties of the *Cs are listed...

    I sure hope the Z1 sysops have the good sense to not elect you as ZC1.

    i was nominated and seconded but i'm not a candidate...

    where do you see "accuracy" and "up to date" mentioned??

    You should read the whole document.

    as should you...

    you do it your way and stay over there... we'll do it our way and
    stay over here...

    I wish we could. Sometimes I wish we could build a firewall around Z1
    and leave them to do their thing in splendid isolation... :(

    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one time because it was asked by its members to do something to quell the flow of unwanted ranting and raving about something political that they had no control over... it worked
    very well until one of the backers of that scenario decided to break the embargo for political and personal enjoyment pitting folks against each other... it could be done but someone started something called fidoweb to prevent such from happening again so you shot yourselves in both feet :shrug:

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Boom time! We got the gang back together!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 4 12:03:50 2018

    On 2018 Jun 04 15:47:48, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    ;E -- ,1,UUCP_Gateway,Louisville_KY,Allen_Prunty,-Unpublished-,9600,
    XA,V34,V32T
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_Sysop,-Unpublished-,3
    00 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --

    Frankly this has NOTHING to do wth the election at all. It's smoke
    and mirrors to pretend so.

    Are you the appointed censor for questions to the candidates?

    they are not questions for the candidates... that time period has passed...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I love my country (with certain specific exceptions).
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 4 12:05:36 2018

    On 2018 Jun 04 15:47:48, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    It's an area where P4 could us an update.

    P4 is not the problem. It is uncaring or ignorant NCs and a *C
    structure unwilling or unable to educate them that is the problem.

    you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink... folk are trying to educate others all the time but look at the network today... hell, numerous Z1 folks tried to educate you and other Z2 members about certain things and yet
    the education did not stick... that much is quite evident in today's fidonet...
    one only need look at you and others of your ilk... so perhaps you should look in the mirror when making statements like that...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Caribou Chili Pizza Beta Tester.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 4 20:37:42 2018
    mark,

    P4 is not the problem. It is uncaring or ignorant NCs and a *C
    structure unwilling or unable to educate them that is the problem.

    you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink... folk are trying to educate others all the time but look at the network today... hell, numerous Z1 folks tried to educate you and other Z2 members about certain things and yet the education did not stick... that much is quite evident in today's fidonet... one only need look at you and others of
    your ilk... so perhaps you should look in the mirror when making
    statements like that...

    You have just wasted a whole message to say nothing. If there's nothing you have to say, then please do.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 4 16:45:48 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Bj”rn Felten to All on Sun Jun 03 2018 07:50 am

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    Region 10
    1:103/17 Dupe address nix.synchro.net;nix.synchro.net
    1:218/101 Server Lookup Failed bbs.domotron.net
    1:218/315 Server Lookup Failed we6jbo.synchro.net
    1:214/559 Bad Phone Number 000-00-00-00-00

    The ZC doesn't need to do a thing - it's the RCs and NCs that are responsible. That being said, thanks for doing the legwork for me on R10.
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Tue Jun 5 01:59:31 2018
    That being said, thanks for doing the legwork for me on R10.

    Don't thank me, thank our intrepid nodelist prowler, Kees, who posts those reports on a regular basis -- even in the FN_SYSOP echo. The one I happened to find was from May 6.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Jun 4 16:57:33 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Carol Shenkenberger to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 03 2018 07:14 pm

    The ,9999 entries are based on an older stricter interpretation of P4 that Z2 barely used at all.You were supposed to setup as that net number and send netmail from it to gain entry.

    I'd prefer to go back to the netmail application process. I've gotten several email applications from fidonet and othernets, where the sysop is going to get a system responding "real soon now". Having them need to send a netmail to apply solves that problem nicely, and makes sure the node system is operational (or at least responding on binkp)
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Tue Jun 5 02:19:52 2018
    Having them need to send a netmail to
    apply solves that problem nicely, and makes sure the node system is operational (or at least responding on binkp)

    Hear, hear!

    That's exactly how it should be done IMnsHO!




    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 4 22:17:56 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Jun 04 2018 03:47 pm

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    ;E --
    ,1,UUCP_Gateway,Louisville_KY,Allen_Prunty,-Unpublished-,9600,
    XA,V34,V32T ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --
    ;E
    ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_Sysop,-Unpublished-,3
    00 ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --


    Frankly this has NOTHING to do wth the election at all. It's smoke
    and mirrors to pretend so.

    Are you the appointed censor for questions to the candidates?

    Michiel, when you see anger from Z1 over the questions, it's because you are attempting to pretend you have the 'right' to interfere with the Z1 election for our Z1C. You DO NOT.

    In all the elections since 1989 when I first clued into them, this one has the most unprecidented level of outside zone interference any among the 6 (2 now former) have ever seen.

    You'd be bouncing off the walls if 1/5 of this came from any other zone in a Z2 election. But hey, you think it's ok to do it to us?

    Now you want to try to reach our candidates here to grill them DURING election voting period because YOU think you have that right in a Z1 election?

    I assure you, had the zones been reversed, you'd be screaming bloody hell as would all your zone.

    You do not have a right to ask ANY questions of our Z1C candidates. So far they are wise and are ignoring your assinine questions due to your lack of ever attempting to learn aother zone's differences.

    Sriously, after 2 decades, have you not learned that zones do not operate the same yet?

    I say that since the ZC is at the top of the chain of responsiblity for the nodelist, it is a relevent question.

    Not one for you to ask, especially since you do not get the UUCP gate or the ,9999 listings.

    Carol I am not a newby that joined Fidonet yesterday. I AM aware of the use of net/9999! But those net/9999 numbers should not be in the nodelist as they are ONLY used by the applicant and can not be used by others to connect to or to send mail to. If the NC really can not suppress the urge to list it, at least he/she should use the Pvt keyword to make it technically correct.

    Z1 does not list like Z2. So, you don't lke 9999 listings. That's just how you feel. They are a P4 leftover, like it or not.

    It's been 2 decades for you and co-operation since isnt in your soul. Clue to you, all other zones and much of yours works that way.

    I don't know why you don't get this or think youhave a 'right' to get in the middle of another zone's election, but you are wrong on all counts.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 01:40:00 2018
    On 06-04-18 14:23, Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
    spoke to Mark Lewis about The Z1 election <=-

    Then you fail to do your job. The prime responsibility of the *Cs
    is to keep the nodelist accurate and up to date.

    It is a responsibility, but by no means the only one.

    wrong...

    MVDV> With that attitude you should not be a *C. I sure hope the
    MVDV> Z1 sysops have the good sense to not elect you as ZC1.

    Since he is not running for the office, your dig is moot.

    where do you see "accuracy" and "up to date" mentioned??

    MVDV> You should read the whole document.

    True for everyone, and the word accuracy does not appear anywhere. The
    phrase "up to date" appears once, where it is stated that the NC should
    make sure the nodes in their net are using an "up to date" nodelist.


    you do it your way and stay over there... we'll do it our way and stay over here...

    MVDV> I wish we could. Sometimes I wish we could build a firewall
    MVDV> around Z1 and leave them to do their thing in splendid
    MVDV> isolation... :(

    Go for it.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)



    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:46:38, 05 Jun 2018
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Björn Felten on Tue Jun 5 11:07:06 2018
    Hello Björn!

    05 Jun 18 01:59, you wrote to Kurt Weiske:

    That being said, thanks for doing the legwork for me on R10.

    Don't thank me, thank our intrepid nodelist prowler, Kees, who posts those reports on a regular basis -- even in the FN_SYSOP echo. The one I happened to find was from May 6.

    Sorry, I have only reported on the quality of the Z2 segment. In the early
    stages of my endeavor I also informed ZC1.

    There is a Dutch saying that says about the following. Sweep your own
    pavement, before you comment on that of your neighbour.

    With pavement I mean the section of the sidewalk in front of your house.
    In the old days in the cities, these would be scrubbed at least once a week.

    I have been nagging in ENET-SYSOP for over three years now and especially
    RC50 has done great job in maintaning it's segment. They really need a
    compliment for that.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kurt Weiske on Tue Jun 5 05:30:06 2018

    On 2018 Jun 04 16:57:32, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    The ,9999 entries are based on an older stricter interpretation of P4
    that Z2 barely used at all.You were supposed to setup as that net
    number and send netmail from it to gain entry.

    I'd prefer to go back to the netmail application process.

    i don't understand... the 999 and 9999 entries don't change that... they help the prospective nodes know which address to use and they make it somewhat simpler for the *C doing the processing to be able to reply to the new node's netmails before they are fully added to the nodelist...

    I've gotten several email applications from fidonet and othernets,
    where the sysop is going to get a system responding "real soon now". Having them need to send a netmail to apply solves that problem
    nicely, and makes sure the node system is operational (or at least responding on binkp)

    all the applications i process get treated that way... there is no "real soon now"... it is "when you can poll me and i can poll you, then we'll move ahead"... when i get an application, the first thing i do is to try to poll the
    system... the process isn't all that different than normal... i think part of the problem is that some setups allow for easier of handling of certain tasks than others... on my system, i can trigger a poll any number of ways... most of
    them from way behind the scenes... my BBS and other tools are generally not even involved...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Dale Shipp on Tue Jun 5 13:13:29 2018
    Hello Dale,

    On Tuesday June 05 2018 01:40, you wrote to me:

    The prime responsibility of the *Cs is to keep the nodelist accurate
    and up to date.

    It is a responsibility, but by no means the only one.

    Did I use the word "only"?

    wrong...

    MVDV>> With that attitude you should not be a *C. I sure hope the
    MVDV>> Z1 sysops have the good sense to not elect you as ZC1.

    Since he is not running for the office, your dig is moot.

    How was I supposed to knwo who is running? With all the secrecy?

    where do you see "accuracy" and "up to date" mentioned??

    MVDV>> You should read the whole document.

    True for everyone, and the word accuracy does not appear anywhere.
    The phrase "up to date" appears once, where it is stated that the NC should make sure the nodes in their net are using an "up to date" nodelist.

    I do not understand why we are discussing this at all. The nodelist is the phone book of Fidonet. OF COURSE it should be accurate and up to date. How can a technical network run smoothly if its "phone book" is not accurate and up to date?

    And since the *Cs are responsible for the nodelist, OF COURSE it is the repsonsibility of the *Cs to see that the nodelist is accurate and up to date. *I* do not need P4 to tell me that it is my responsibility to see that the section of the nodelist that is under my care is accurate and up to date. Dioes
    that not go without saying? So why do we drag in P4? Why are we discussing it at all?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Tue Jun 5 14:33:34 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Monday June 04 2018 12:09, you wrote to me:

    Then you fail to do your job. The prime responsibility of the
    *Cs is to keep the nodelist accurate and up to date.

    wrong...

    With that attitude you should not be a *C.

    that's not your decision...

    I am the sole decider regarding my opinion.

    with your attitude, you shouldn't be a *C, either...

    I was elected. The sysops that elected me, seem to be of different opinion. Were you elected?

    you should note, also, that i didn't say that that wasn't a valid
    goal... only that it is not stated as such in policy where the duties
    of the *Cs are listed...

    Indeed, yuo said nothing about valid goals. You just said I was wrong.

    I sure hope the Z1 sysops have the good sense to not elect you as
    ZC1.

    i was nominated and seconded but i'm not a candidate...

    That's a relief. But how was I supposed to know? With all the secrecy?

    where do you see "accuracy" and "up to date" mentioned??

    You should read the whole document.

    as should you...

    I do not need P4 to tell me that it is my duty as a *C to keep the part of the nodelist that is entrusted to me as accurate and up to date as possible.

    Why a re we discussing this at all? Isn't it self evident?

    you do it your way and stay over there... we'll do it our way
    and stay over here...

    I wish we could. Sometimes I wish we could build a firewall
    around Z1 and leave them to do their thing in splendid
    isolation... :(

    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one time because it was asked by its members to do something to quell the flow
    of unwanted ranting and raving about something political that they had
    no control over...

    Yeah, they wanted control...

    it worked very well until one of the backers of that scenario decided
    to break the embargo

    Starting with a link between me and Roy Witt.

    for political and personal enjoyment pitting folks against each
    other... it could be done but someone started something called fidoweb
    to prevent such from happening again

    Indeed, The Fidoweb ensured that no single person or group of persons shall ever again have the control that the NAB had at the time of the Fidonews coup.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Tue Jun 5 14:43:43 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Monday June 04 2018 12:03, you wrote to me:

    Are you the appointed censor for questions to the candidates?

    they are not questions for the candidates... that time period has passed...

    How am I to know when it is all kept a big secret?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kurt Weiske on Tue Jun 5 15:50:25 2018
    Hello Kurt,

    On Monday June 04 2018 16:57, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    I'd prefer to go back to the netmail application process. I've gotten several email applications from fidonet and othernets, where the sysop
    is going to get a system responding "real soon now". Having them need
    to send a netmail to apply solves that problem nicely, and makes sure
    the node system is operational (or at least responding on binkp)

    Here people can apply for Fdionet membership by any means convenient, but the node number does not appear in the nodelist until after they have a mailer online and have demonstrated the ability to send and receive netmail.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 12:54:12 2018

    On 2018 Jun 05 13:13:28, you wrote to Dale Shipp:

    MVDV>>> With that attitude you should not be a *C. I sure hope the Z1
    MVDV>>> sysops have the good sense to not elect you as ZC1.

    Since he is not running for the office, your dig is moot.

    How was I supposed to knwo who is running? With all the secrecy?

    why would you assume that i was? have i ever given the impression that i want to be ""top dog""?

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Unicorns aren't nearly as mythical as virgins.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 13:12:32 2018

    On 2018 Jun 05 14:33:34, you wrote to me:

    with your attitude, you shouldn't be a *C, either...

    I was elected. The sysops that elected me, seem to be of different
    opinion.
    Were you elected?

    i have been elected and appointed to several positions in fidonet...

    I do not need P4 to tell me that it is my duty as a *C to keep the part of the nodelist that is entrusted to me as accurate and up to date as possible.

    Why a re we discussing this at all? Isn't it self evident?

    you brought it up...

    you do it your way and stay over there... we'll do it our way
    and stay over here...

    I wish we could. Sometimes I wish we could build a firewall
    around Z1 and leave them to do their thing in splendid
    isolation... :(

    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one time
    because it was asked by its members to do something to quell the flow
    of unwanted ranting and raving about something political that they had
    no control over...

    Yeah, they wanted control...

    no, they wanted bjorn to shut his mouth about american politics and ranting at them like they could do something about it... the american politics, that is...

    it worked very well until one of the backers of that scenario decided
    to break the embargo

    Starting with a link between me and Roy Witt.

    exactly... he was the one playing games and carried you with him...

    for political and personal enjoyment pitting folks against each
    other... it could be done but someone started something called fidoweb
    to prevent such from happening again

    Indeed, The Fidoweb ensured that no single person or group of persons
    shall
    ever again have the control that the NAB had at the time of the Fidonews coup.

    i don't know what control you're speaking of... everyone has/had a choice to link whereever they wanted to... no one delinked from the NAB because of this AFAIK... roy certainly didn't need to go and backfeed his link with you into the rest of the NAB distribution like he did... especially when he was one of those that requested something be done which resulted in the links being cut...
    you've been told this several times yet you are not retaining this educational knowledge for some reason...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... We are just here for a spell. Get all the good laughs you can.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Tue Jun 5 22:24:48 2018
    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one time
    because it was asked by its members to do something to quell the flow of unwanted ranting and raving about something political that they had no control over... it worked very well until one of the backers of that scenario decided to break the embargo for political and personal
    enjoyment pitting folks against each other...

    1) That is the clearest statement about a desire of control by the NAB which
    I ever read. After all these years it's nice to have it in the open ...

    2) The backers of that scenario should be ashamed to the Moon and back. I
    cannot think of any similar situation to emanate from Z2 ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 6 00:42:30 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    Are you the appointed censor for questions to the candidates?

    they are not questions for the candidates... that time period has
    passed...

    MvdV> How am I to know when it is all kept a big secret?

    Little case mark simply stated the obvious, that the result is
    a forgone conclusion, even though the current Z1C (Janis) noted
    the election is still going on, as per The Rules.

    Little case mark is going to have hell to pay for spilling the
    beans on their charade. But please. Don't let that worry you.
    He took himself out of the running when some poor sod nominated
    him, thus making it a head-to-head matchup between the two
    remaining contestants.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 6 00:42:53 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    I'd prefer to go back to the netmail application process. I've gotten
    several email applications from fidonet and othernets, where the sysop
    is going to get a system responding "real soon now". Having them need
    to send a netmail to apply solves that problem nicely, and makes sure
    the node system is operational (or at least responding on binkp)

    MvdV> Here people can apply for Fdionet membership by any means convenient,

    Transcending from probationary sysop to full-fledged sysop is that
    easy? If so, I want *IN*!

    MvdV> but the node number does not appear in the nodelist until after they have a
    MvdV> mailer online and have demonstrated the ability to send and receive
    MvdV> netmail.

    Well, as long as I don't have to take a stinking loyalty oath
    to P4 (and all that would imply).

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Kurt Weiske on Tue Jun 5 22:14:11 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Kurt Weiske to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Jun 04 2018 04:57 pm

    The ,9999 entries are based on an older stricter interpretation of
    P4 that Z2 barely used at all.You were supposed to setup as that net
    number and send netmail from it to gain entry.

    I'd prefer to go back to the netmail application process. I've gotten several email applications from fidonet and othernets, where the sysop is going to get a system responding "real soon now". Having them need to send a netmail to apply solves that problem nicely, and makes sure the node system is operational (or at least responding on binkp)

    I can work with that! I just work with them as they are and bring them along.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Ward Dossche on Tue Jun 5 21:52:40 2018
    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one time
    because it was asked by its members to do something to quell the flow
    of unwanted ranting and raving about something political that they had
    no control over... it worked very well until one of the backers of
    that scenario decided to break the embargo for political and personal
    enjoyment pitting folks against each other...

    1) That is the clearest statement about a desire of control by the
    NAB which I ever read. After all these years it's nice to have it in the open ...
    I really dont see your concern in this in the fact that if it was requested & supported by the members, then it should be acted upon by the NCs & RCs.

    2) The backers of that scenario should be ashamed to the Moon and
    back. I
    cannot think of any similar situation to emanate from Z2 ...
    If a group of sysops are being annoyed by polictical rants & raves from another
    net, they have the right to solict the NC/RC to drop that echo. Or to block the traffic. If the majority of the NC/RC/ZONE support the request, then it is NOT a NAB control issue. It is an obligation to the indivdual nodes in the net or region.

    \%/@rd
    -+- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    + Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org
    (2:292/854)
    Maybe that is the foundational difference between Z1 & Z2. While Z2 feels it can let the monkeys run loose, doing & saying whatever they want, Z1 feels those monkeys should be allowed to play provided they behave themselves - not creating mischief that offends others.

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Phil Kimble on Wed Jun 6 10:08:30 2018
    Hi Phil,

    1) That is the clearest statement about a desire of control by the PK>WD> NAB which I ever read. After all these years it's nice to have it in PK>WD> the open ...

    I really dont see your concern in this in the fact that if it was
    requested & supported by the members, then it should be acted upon by
    the NCs & RCs.

    There really is no need on your part to prove your incompetence, we already know about that.

    *Cs have got no business in dealing with echomail nor file-distribution. In the
    framework of their mandate they don't handle it, they don't organise it, as a *C none of them are even remotely involved with how echomail- or file-distribution works. As a consequence they cannot deny it nor approve it.

    Hence in the historic case of the FIDONEWS cut *Cs had no say, it was an NAB-matter. The fact that the NAB at that time was composed by *Cs bears no relevance as they did not act from within their mandate.

    If a group of sysops are being annoyed by polictical rants & raves from another net, they have the right to solict the NC/RC to drop that echo.

    No they don't for the simple fact that an NC/RC does not deal with echomail.

    If the majority of the NC/RC/ZONE support the request ...

    At the time there was not a majority request at all, just a few people ... I would say less than 5 ... plus all 3 sysops who composed the NAB who took it as
    the perfect excuse to settle their personal vendetta with Bjorn Felten.

    A lot of that could have been avoided by educating or inspiring selected Z1 people to use the 'Next'-key ... I use it myself a lot ... I wouldn't even have
    read your message if my attention hadn't been drawn to it by individuals from Z1 saying "You gotta read this and please tear it apart" ...

    I decided to remain civil though.

    Take care,

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Lee Lofaso on Wed Jun 6 01:05:38 2018
    Hello Lee!

    06 Jun 18 00:42, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Little case

    Sorry, it is lower and upper case.

    In hand typesetting the caracters were available in a drawers in a case.

    Capitals were in the upper part of the case and normal characters in the
    lower part of the case.


    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 6 13:27:42 2018

    Kees,

    Little case

    Sorry, it is lower and upper case.

    What about upper and lower Kees ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 6 13:36:28 2018
    Hello Ward!

    06 Jun 18 13:27, you wrote to me:

    Sorry, it is lower and upper case.

    What about upper and lower Kees ?

    There is also test Kees and nut Kees

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 6 14:09:00 2018

    Sorry, it is lower and upper case.

    What about upper and lower Kees ?

    There is also test Kees and nut Kees

    And 'peanutbutterkees'.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 6 14:55:48 2018
    Hello Ward!

    06 Jun 18 14:09, you wrote to me:

    Sorry, it is lower and upper case.
    What about upper and lower Kees ?
    There is also test Kees and nut Kees

    And 'peanutbutterkees'.

    Well I live near Alkmaar so I am almost a Kaaskop.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carol Shenkenberger on Wed Jun 6 16:33:29 2018
    Hello Carol,

    On Monday June 04 2018 22:17, you wrote to me:

    In your eagerness to lecture me on zone differences - real or perceived - you, once again, totally missed the point.

    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_Sysop,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --

    Look at the second line. It gives the reason why NlCheck flagged this line as in error. It has nothing to do with the 9999 number as such.

    The reason it is flagged as in error is because Pvt is missing!!

    You are an FTSC member. I should not have to explain it to you. But since you completely missed it I will explain anyway. From FTS-5000:

    Pvt
    This keyword defines a Private node (see Policy v4.07,
    Section 2.1.9) - i.e. a node that is operational, but
    not publicly available for direct contact. When this keyword
    is used, field six should contain the string "-Unpublished-".

    NlCheck scans the nodelist for nodes that are not listed as Pvt, Hold or Down and that have no contact info at all. So no valid telephone number and no valid
    host name or IP address.

    Such a node is flagged as in error because it is not publicly available for direct contact and is not listed as Pvt.

    Do you get it now?



    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 6 14:05:30 2018

    On 2018 Jun 05 22:24:48, you wrote to me:

    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one time
    because it was asked by its members to do something to quell the flow
    of unwanted ranting and raving about something political that they
    had no control over... it worked very well until one of the backers
    of that scenario decided to break the embargo for political and
    personal enjoyment pitting folks against each other...

    1) That is the clearest statement about a desire of control by the NAB which I ever read. After all these years it's nice to have it in the
    open ...

    you are misreading what has been written... there is no "desire of control" by anyone...

    2) The backers of that scenario should be ashamed to the Moon and
    back. I cannot think of any similar situation to emanate from Z2 ...

    be glad that you didn't have to deal with the likes of others similar to roy, then... here in Z1, there was huge battles in the echos with such folk... some in Z2 exhibit similar qualities and are met in similar fashion... not so much, these days, though...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Cauliflower is cabbage with a college education. - Mark Twain
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Phil Kimble on Wed Jun 6 14:11:40 2018

    On 2018 Jun 05 21:52:40, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one time
    because it was asked by its members to do something to quell the
    flow of unwanted ranting and raving about something political that
    they had no control over... it worked very well until one of the
    backers of that scenario decided to break the embargo for political
    and personal enjoyment pitting folks against each other...

    1) That is the clearest statement about a desire of control by the
    NAB which I ever read. After all these years it's nice to have it in
    the open ...

    I really dont see your concern in this in the fact that if it was requested & supported by the members, then it should be acted upon by
    the NCs & RCs.

    in this case, it was not *C related... it was a distribution entity that acted upon it... that entity is made of three systems linked together specifically for the distribution of fidonet echomail...

    the request to this entity (aka NAB aka North American Backbone) was made when repeated requests to the individual in question as well as others close to him all failed to show any results... the last option was to ask the distribution system...

    2) The backers of that scenario should be ashamed to the Moon and
    back. I cannot think of any similar situation to emanate from Z2 ...

    If a group of sysops are being annoyed by polictical rants & raves
    from another net, they have the right to solict the NC/RC to drop that echo. Or to block the traffic. If the majority of the NC/RC/ZONE
    support the request, then it is NOT a NAB control issue. It is an obligation to the indivdual nodes in the net or region.

    *Cs are not involved in echomail distribution... not as *Cs anyway... the hats are quite different...

    \%/@rd
    -+- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    + Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org
    (2:292/854)

    Maybe that is the foundational difference between Z1 & Z2. While Z2
    feels it can let the monkeys run loose, doing & saying whatever they
    want, Z1 feels those monkeys should be allowed to play provided they behave themselves - not creating mischief that offends others.

    Z1 has a long history with dealing with ""those monkeys""... some were even excommunicated for their repeated actions...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Living is hazardous to your health.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 7 00:12:19 2018
    mark,

    be glad that you didn't have to deal with the likes of others similar to roy, then... here in Z1, there was huge battles in the echos with such folk... some in Z2 exhibit similar qualities and are met in similar fashion... not so much, these days, though...

    I like several of the observations which you sometimes make, however when you having nothing to say it helps when not stating the obvious ... meaning you have nothing to say.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 7 00:16:28 2018
    the request to this entity (aka NAB aka North American Backbone) was made when repeated requests to the individual in question as well as others close to him all failed to show any results... the last option was to ask the distribution system...

    You fail to mention to Phil the individual which was targeted was the moderator
    of the echo and there was a history of unsuccessful attempts at unseating him.

    History showed it was a total disaster and the end of the NAB as a noteworthy structure. It has been successfully sidetracked.

    Z1 has a long history with dealing with ""those monkeys""... some were
    even excommunicated for their repeated actions...

    Z2 has never had a formal complaint attitude under my watch. Just a few ever made it here in 24 years ... I remember 4 and the lastone involved Helmut Hullen more than 15 years ago.

    Z2 has neither had a history of needing to deal with "those monkey"-types which
    seem to be abundant overthere but not on this side of the Atlantic.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 7 00:25:19 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    Then you fail to do your job. The prime responsibility of the *Cs
    is to keep the nodelist accurate and up to date.

    wrong...

    MvdV> With that attitude you should not be a *C. I sure hope the Z1 sysops have
    MvdV> the good sense to not elect you as ZC1.

    He took himsef out of the running after he was nominated.

    where do you see "accuracy" and "up to date" mentioned??

    MvdV> You should read the whole document.

    Why bother, when all he has to do is worship the Z1C?

    you do it your way and stay over there... we'll do it our way and stay
    over here...

    MvdV> I wish we could. Sometimes I wish we could build a firewall around Z1 and
    MvdV> leave them to do their thing in splendid isolation... :(

    That can be arranged. Do you want to find out how?

    --Lee

    --
    Make Sure Your Next Erection Is In Safe Hands

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 7 00:25:43 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    [..]

    It's an area where P4 could us an update.

    MvdV> P4 is not the problem. It is uncaring or ignorant NCs and a *C structure
    MvdV> unwilling or unable to educate them that is the problem.

    Communication, or a breakdown thereof, is and has always
    been a problem. Especially in Zone 1. But that is due
    mainly to a small clique of sysops within Zone 1, not
    the body of sysops as a whole.

    However, P4 is a problem. Carol S. unintentionally
    pointed out one of those problems. Read the document.
    P4 cannot be amended. Therefore, there is only one
    way P4 can get an "update" - ditch the entire document
    and write a new one.

    Far easier to simply ditch P4 and use Echopol1 as
    the standard. That way, it will not have to be voted
    on and ratified.

    A new election for Z1C can then be called, and once
    the newly elected Z1C has taken office, he/she will
    represent Zone 1 on the Zone Coordinator Council.

    That is when all the fun begins.

    The Zone Coordinator Council will finally be able
    to elect the International Zone Coordinator (there
    can be only one).

    And then FidoNet will once again be one, big happy family.

    OTOH, do realize I have lost my mind.

    --Lee

    --
    Every Bottom Needs A Top

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu Jun 7 00:26:19 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Having them need to send a netmail to
    apply solves that problem nicely, and makes sure the node system is
    operational (or at least responding on binkp)

    Hear, hear!

    That's exactly how it should be done IMnsHO!

    I can do that! And if I can, then anybody can!

    Hey, Tim! And Earl! And all other benchsitters!
    Get a move on! Let's become sysops!

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 7 00:27:02 2018
    Hello mark,

    MVDV>>>> With that attitude you should not be a *C. I sure hope the Z1
    MVDV>>>> sysops have the good sense to not elect you as ZC1.

    Since he is not running for the office, your dig is moot.

    How was I supposed to knwo who is running? With all the secrecy?

    why would you assume that i was? have i ever given the impression that i want to be ""top dog""?

    Is it true you nominated yourself so you could decline the nomination?

    The Rules are very strange. In order for a sysop to be nominated,
    the nomination must be seconded. That makes me wonder. If you did
    in fact nominate yourself, did you also second your own nomination?

    With standard parliamentary procedure, no seconds are needed for
    nominations. Why do The Rules deviate from the norm? Because it
    is a scam election, run by rank amateurs.

    The only thing funnier I have ever seen was a lawyer who put
    himself on trial, acting as both prosecutor and defendant.
    Charged with contempt of court, the lawyer knew exactly what
    to do. He took the stand, got himself sworn in, and then
    proceeded to prosecute and defend himself. He really drew
    a crowd with that trial.

    He won his case, the judge acquitting him of all charges.

    The lawyer knew how to entertain a crowd. Not just the judge,
    but everybody who was watching his antics. Even at almost a
    hundred years old, he had not lost his touch.

    I wish every sysop in FidoNet had as nimble a mind as him.

    --Lee

    --
    I Take A Sheet In The Pool

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 6 23:23:37 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Carol Shenkenberger on Wed Jun 06 2018 04:33 pm

    In your eagerness to lecture me on zone differences - real or perceived - you, once again, totally missed the point.


    Actually, you missed it.

    ;E ,9999,New_Fidonet_Node,Anywhere_MN,New_Fido_Sysop,-Unpublished-,300
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --

    Of COURSE it lacks connect info. A nodelist.999 is used to add that. That is then sent locally to be applied a those who wish to help test the node.

    Look at the second line. It gives the reason why NlCheck flagged this line as in error. It has nothing to do with the 9999 number as such.

    The reason it is flagged as in error is because Pvt is missing!!

    You are an FTSC member. I should not have to explain it to you. But since you completely missed it I will explain anyway. From FTS-5000:

    Duh.... Z1 doesnt do it that way.

    Pvt
    This keyword defines a Private node (see Policy v4.07,
    Section 2.1.9) - i.e. a node that is operational, but
    not publicly available for direct contact. When this keyword
    is used, field six should contain the string "-Unpublished-".

    So Z1 made it publically available to the net via a temp nodelist.999 set.

    I'm sorry but all you did here was show how much you lack knowledge of other zones operations.

    Most sites got rid of the 999 or 9999 listings but the comanality was not to PVT list them due to mailers of the time default routing to them when the site was testing CM and waiting full entry. The main problem was having 2 at the same time trying to enter and using the same temp nodenumber.


    Such a node is flagged as in error because it is not publicly available for direct contact and is not listed as Pvt.

    Do you get it now?

    Yes. Your tool is not accurate for othr zone operations. You lack understanding of how others operate.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carol Shenkenberger on Thu Jun 7 17:18:34 2018
    Hello Carol,

    On Monday June 04 2018 22:17, you wrote to me:

    So you don't lke 9999 listings. That's just how you feel.

    They are technically incorrect. That is not a feeling, it is my considered opinion as a sysop of long standing, a scientist and FTSC chairman.

    They are a P4 leftover, like it or not.

    Not so. P4 suggests a number to use for potential sysops to netmail the NC. A number that does not cause conflicts at the NC's end. The first suggestion is -1/-1. The second suggestion is net/9999. NB: number to use in the setup of the
    applicant. P4 does NOT say these -1/-1 or net/9999 should appear in the nodelist.

    You must set up your software so that the from-address in your message does not cause problems for the coordinator who receives it. If you
    pick the address of an existing system, this will cause obvious
    problems. If your software is capable of using address -1/-1, this is
    the traditional address used by potential sysops. Otherwise use
    net/9999 (e.g. if you are applying to net 123, set your system up as 123/9999). Many nets have specific instructions available to
    potential sysops and these procedures may indicate a preference for
    the from-address.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 7 17:47:57 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Tuesday June 05 2018 12:54, you wrote to me:

    How was I supposed to know who is running? With all the secrecy?

    why would you assume that i was?

    I did not assume, I feared.

    have i ever given the impression that i want to be ""top dog""?

    My fear is not gone yet. It ain't over till it's over and it ain't over yet.

    I have seen many an election where the one crying loudest he was not in the race ended up winning it anyway. And a loudmouth you are..


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 7 17:52:06 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Tuesday June 05 2018 13:12, you wrote to me:

    with your attitude, you shouldn't be a *C, either...

    I was elected. The sysops that elected me, seem to be of
    different opinion. Were you elected?

    i have been elected and appointed to several positions in fidonet...

    As a *C?

    I do not need P4 to tell me that it is my duty as a *C to keep
    the part of the nodelist that is entrusted to me as accurate and
    up to date as possible.

    Why a re we discussing this at all? Isn't it self evident?

    you brought it up...

    As an axiom, not as a subject for discussion.

    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one
    time because it was asked by its members to do something to
    quell the flow of unwanted ranting and raving about something
    political that they had no control over...

    Yeah, they wanted control...

    no, they wanted bjorn to shut his mouth

    Wanting someone to shut up is wanting control.

    it worked very well until one of the backers of that scenario
    decided to break the embargo

    Starting with a link between me and Roy Witt.

    exactly... he was the one playing games and carried you with him...

    It was the NAB that staryted the game, not me or Roy Witt.

    Indeed, The Fidoweb ensured that no single person or group of
    persons shall ever again have the control that the NAB had at the
    time of the Fidonews coup.

    i don't know what control you're speaking of... everyone has/had a
    choice to link whereever they wanted to...

    Yeah, any colour as long as it is black...

    no one delinked from the NAB because of this AFAIK

    I did. I linked with Ross Cassel. I cut that link. For all echos, not just this
    one.

    backfeed his link with you into the rest of the NAB distribution like
    he did... especially when he was one of those that requested something
    be done which resulted in the links being cut... you've been told this several times yet you are not retaining this educational knowledge for some reason...

    In my long and prosporous life I have been told many things many times over. Some of the things I have been told, I have checked out and found of of enough merit to retain. Much more I have rejected as bullshit.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jun 7 18:18:23 2018
    Hello Lee,

    On Wednesday June 06 2018 00:42, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Here people can apply for Fdionet membership by any means
    MvdV>> convenient,

    Transcending from probationary sysop to full-fledged sysop is that
    easy? If so, I want *IN*!

    No, filing the application is easy. Getting though requires setting up a mailer
    and demonstrating the ability to send and receive netmail. You have not passed yet.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 7 22:00:06 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Carol Shenkenberger on Thu Jun 07 2018 05:18 pm

    On Monday June 04 2018 22:17, you wrote to me:

    So you don't lke 9999 listings. That's just how you feel.

    They are technically incorrect. That is not a feeling, it is my considered
    opinion as a sysop of long standing, a scientist and FTSC chairman.

    In other words what we;ve been trying to tell you for years. Not all zones see P4 the same as you personally see it. Your being the FTSC chairman holds no sway on this one at all.

    They are a P4 leftover, like it or not.

    Not so. P4 suggests a number to use for potential sysops to netmail the NC. A number that does not cause conflicts at the NC's end. The first


    Lets read that again. Zones diverged on usage of P4. What part of zones differ in practices did you miss yet again?

    Otherwise use net/9999 (e.g. if you are applying to net 123, set
    your system up as 123/9999). Many nets have specific instructions
    available to potential sysops and these procedures may indicate a
    preference for the from-address.

    Yup. Catchig on yet?

    In Z1, they used that setup.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Fri Jun 8 18:47:02 2018

    On 2018 Jun 07 00:16:28, you wrote to me:

    the request to this entity (aka NAB aka North American Backbone) was
    made when repeated requests to the individual in question as well as
    others close to him all failed to show any results... the last option
    was to ask the distribution system...

    You fail to mention to Phil the individual which was targeted

    there was no targetting...

    was the moderator of the echo

    that made the problem even worse...

    and there was a history of unsuccessful attempts at unseating him.

    that was never a consideration...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... The Devil made me do it, and I wanna do it again!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 8 19:00:02 2018

    On 2018 Jun 07 17:18:34, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    The second suggestion is net/9999. NB: number to use in the setup of
    the applicant. P4 does NOT say these -1/-1 or net/9999 should appear
    in the nodelist.

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the nodelist and their software enforces nodelist lookups? once again, you have an extremely limited horizon...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... He got slapped when he tried to Caesar Salad.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 8 19:01:28 2018

    On 2018 Jun 07 17:47:56, you wrote to me:

    How was I supposed to know who is running? With all the secrecy?

    why would you assume that i was?

    I did not assume, I feared.

    i'll be sure to return the favor if you run for Z2C...

    have i ever given the impression that i want to be ""top dog""?

    My fear is not gone yet. It ain't over till it's over and it ain't
    over yet.

    sounds like a medical problem... perhaps you should try self-medicating? i understand that weed is a good calming agent...

    I have seen many an election where the one crying loudest he was not
    in the race ended up winning it anyway. And a loudmouth you are..

    I DO NOT AND NEVER HAVE WANTED THE FUCKING JOB! SHUT THE HELL UP AND GET OFF OF
    ME!

    did you understand me that time, goosehole?

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... We [0Me!U EACe. GiVe uf YOUg AmM0UiA o+ Die.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 8 19:05:00 2018

    On 2018 Jun 07 17:52:06, you wrote to me:

    I was elected. The sysops that elected me, seem to be of
    different opinion. Were you elected?

    i have been elected and appointed to several positions in fidonet...

    As a *C?

    yes.

    I do not need P4 to tell me that it is my duty as a *C to keep the
    part of the nodelist that is entrusted to me as accurate and up to
    date as possible.

    Why a re we discussing this at all? Isn't it self evident?

    you brought it up...

    As an axiom, not as a subject for discussion.

    do you think you're the only one who can do that?? i've done it many times and yet, here we are...

    you can... errr... could... a Z1 backbone did just that at one
    time because it was asked by its members to do something to
    quell the flow of unwanted ranting and raving about something
    political that they had no control over...

    Yeah, they wanted control...

    no, they wanted bjorn to shut his mouth

    Wanting someone to shut up is wanting control.

    no, it isn't... wanting is not control... forcing, on the other hand, is control... the middle road was taken and their posts were simply eliminated and
    prevented from being propogated within the distribution system...

    it worked very well until one of the backers of that scenario
    decided to break the embargo

    Starting with a link between me and Roy Witt.

    exactly... he was the one playing games and carried you with him...

    It was the NAB that staryted the game, not me or Roy Witt.

    how fucking stupid are you? i know it isn't ignorance, this time... you have BEEN TOLD many times that THE MEMBERS OF THE NAB REQUESTED THE NAB TO DO SOMETHING... the NAB did something... tough shit if you don't or didn't like it...

    Indeed, The Fidoweb ensured that no single person or group of
    persons shall ever again have the control that the NAB had at the
    time of the Fidonews coup.

    i don't know what control you're speaking of... everyone has/had a
    choice to link whereever they wanted to...

    Yeah, any colour as long as it is black...

    how do you think the *EC grip on echomail was broken? do you remember that? the
    grip where the *ECs thought they had control over echomail distribution and that everyone had to get their echomail from said *EC and pay them for it??? you do remember that shit, don't you?? every one is free to connect with whomever they can work a deal with to exchange echomail and files... it has ALWAYS been that way... it just took years for folks to realize that and actually utilize it...

    no one delinked from the NAB because of this AFAIK

    I did. I linked with Ross Cassel. I cut that link. For all echos, not just this one.

    :shrug: that's your problem to deal with...

    backfeed his link with you into the rest of the NAB distribution like
    he did... especially when he was one of those that requested something
    be done which resulted in the links being cut... you've been told this
    several times yet you are not retaining this educational knowledge for
    some reason...

    In my long and prosporous life I have been told many things many times over. Some of the things I have been told, I have checked out and found of of enough merit to retain. Much more I have rejected as bullshit.

    in this case, you need to do more research but it may be too late now because at least two of the folks involved are no longer in this realm and another one has left the network some time ago... one day there may not be any others to tell you the truth about what happened and why... that does not mean that your story of the incident is then the right one... but you keep on trying... one day you'll figure it out or you'll die without knowing the truth...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... He's Hunanese, constructed almost entirely from chilies and onions.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Sat Jun 9 08:35:45 2018
    My Fido-friend,

    and there was a history of unsuccessful attempts at unseating him.

    that was never a consideration...

    The NAB-Troika approached me privately for exactly that purpose.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Sat Jun 9 15:24:11 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Friday June 08 2018 19:00, you wrote to me:

    The second suggestion is net/9999. NB: number to use in the setup
    of the applicant. P4 does NOT say these -1/-1 or net/9999 should
    appear in the nodelist.

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the nodelist
    and their software enforces nodelist lookups?

    Use a private nodelist segment with the 9999 entry and the connect data for that application.

    BTW, how does the NC repsond to an application coming from -1/-1 when his software does not support negative net- and node numbers?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Sat Jun 9 15:54:59 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Friday June 08 2018 19:01, you wrote to me:

    why would you assume that i was?

    I did not assume, I feared.

    i'll be sure to return the favor if you run for Z2C...

    That would be great as it would mean that there IS a ZC2 election. I hope you keep taking your longivity pills because we may not have a ZC2 election in another decade or two. years.

    My fear is not gone yet. It ain't over till it's over and it
    ain't over yet.

    sounds like a medical problem... perhaps you should try
    self-medicating? i understand that weed is a good calming agent...

    Fear has been demonstrated to be of survival value. Those who fear being bitten
    when within biting range of a snake have better chances of survival than those who assume the snake is harmless.

    I DO NOT AND NEVER HAVE WANTED THE FUCKING JOB! SHUT THE HELL UP AND
    GET OFF OF ME!

    Ah, so you DO have a caps key?

    did you understand me that time, goosehole?

    Goosehole? Is that an inverted goosepimp?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jun 9 13:46:34 2018

    On 2018 Jun 09 08:35:44, you wrote to me:

    and there was a history of unsuccessful attempts at unseating him.

    that was never a consideration...

    The NAB-Troika approached me privately for exactly that purpose.

    i doubt that... more likely is that you were approached by sysops or possibly, but i doubt, *Cs...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Another good mind not yet ruined by higher education!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Jun 9 13:51:42 2018

    On 2018 Jun 09 15:24:10, you wrote to me:

    The second suggestion is net/9999. NB: number to use in the setup of
    the applicant. P4 does NOT say these -1/-1 or net/9999 should appear
    in the nodelist.

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the nodelist
    and their software enforces nodelist lookups?

    Use a private nodelist segment with the 9999 entry and the connect
    data for that application.

    is the nodelist not good enough to use if the entry is already there? maybe they're working on their connections with other members of the network?

    BTW, how does the NC repsond to an application coming from -1/-1 when
    his software does not support negative net- and node numbers?

    that's easy... it is rolled over and displayed as 32767/32676...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Cats are Roommates Dogs are Family!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Sat Jun 9 20:37:40 2018
    The NAB-Troika approached me privately for exactly that purpose.

    i doubt that... more likely is that you were approached by sysops or possibly, but i doubt, *Cs...

    You could be right.

    The people whom approached me were someone called Janis Kracht, anotherone Ross
    Cassell and a thirdone was someone signing his messages with '.....Bob', Seaborn's the name I think.

    Any of the names familiar to you?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jun 9 16:00:46 2018

    On 2018 Jun 09 20:37:40, you wrote to me:

    The NAB-Troika approached me privately for exactly that purpose.

    i doubt that... more likely is that you were approached by sysops or
    possibly, but i doubt, *Cs...

    You could be right.

    :)

    The people whom approached me were someone called Janis Kracht,
    anotherone Ross Cassell and a thirdone was someone signing his
    messages with '.....Bob', Seaborn's the name I think.

    Any of the names familiar to you?

    yes, they do...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... One learns manners from those who have none.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Jun 9 19:36:10 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to mark lewis on Thu Jun 07 2018 05:47 pm

    I did not assume, I feared.

    have i ever given the impression that i want to be ""top dog""?

    My fear is not gone yet. It ain't over till it's over and it ain't over yet.

    He declined the nomination.

    We are now nearing end of election here. We have 2 excellent candidates. We all win, no matter who takes the vote.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 10 09:03:13 2018
    Hello Carol,

    On Saturday June 09 2018 19:36, you wrote to me:

    My fear is not gone yet. It ain't over till it's over and it
    ain't over yet.

    He declined the nomination.

    So he was nominated. And presumably secunded, or else there would have been nothing to decline. Are you sure he explicitly declined or did he just fail to accept the nomination?

    Either way, at least two idiots thought it was a good idea if he became the next ZC1. My fears were well founded.

    We are now nearing end of election here.

    It ain't over till its over. Wouldn't be the first time a Fidonet election needed a redo from start...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jun 10 00:54:06 2018
    Hi Phil,

    I really dont see your concern in this in the fact that if it was
    requested & supported by the members, then it should be acted upon by
    the NCs & RCs.

    There really is no need on your part to prove your incompetence, we already know about that.

    *Cs have got no business in dealing with echomail nor
    file-distribution. In the framework of their mandate they don't
    handle it, they don't organise it, as a *C none of them are even
    remotely involved with how echomail- or file-distribution works. As a consequence they cannot deny it nor approve it.
    I fully understand the system & differences between *ECs & *Cs. I further agree
    - that is the "recommended approach" - historically. I think if you review the nodelist, the majority of the mail hubs ARE *Cs, even in Zone2! It is the exception that a RC/NC is NOT an EC.

    For the facts: my first node number was 2:2468/6718 as far back as 1995. So I know the system but I also recognize reality!

    No they don't for the simple fact that an NC/RC does not deal with echomail.
    Sure they do - the RC/NC is responsible for the "smooth operation of the network". If there is a problem, it is the RC/NC to resolve. Lastly, even in Zone 2, Bjorn Felten is both RC AND REC. Therefore, the RC is the REC & fully involved in echomail.

    If the majority of the NC/RC/ZONE support the request ...
    Therefore, what I said stands, call them a RC or REC, its the same person wearing 2 different hats. But the *Cs are reponsible for the smooth operation of the network.

    At the time there was not a majority request at all, just a few
    people ... I would say less than 5 ... plus all 3 sysops who composed
    the NAB who took it as the perfect excuse to settle their personal vendetta with Bjorn Felten.
    If he wasnt so anonying AND anti-Z1, maybe they wouldnt have. Review P4 for the
    "Anonying Sysop" case history. There is a process in P4 to remove anonyances from fidonet. In this case, he just happens to be the editor of FidoNews who is
    unable to present a "global" view due to his slanted comments.

    Not sure how this Z1 vs Z2 war got started, but it seems to be fueled and supported by his comments.

    A lot of that could have been avoided by educating or inspiring
    selected Z1 people to use the 'Next'-key ... I use it myself a lot
    ... I wouldn't even have read your message if my attention hadn't
    been drawn to it by individuals from Z1 saying "You gotta read this
    and please tear it apart" ...
    No, what I say comes from both a historic view but also reality. Just do a search on the nodelist & see how many "Mail Hubs" ARE NOT RCs/NCs. Even the ZCs
    are routing echomail as the ZEC. Regardles of what you call them, it is the same person making the same decision from the same computer system...

    I decided to remain civil though.
    And I respect that. But next, please review the facts.

    Take care,
    Luv ya Dude!!

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 10 09:07:51 2018
    Hello Carol,

    On Wednesday June 06 2018 23:23, you wrote to me:

    The reason it is flagged as in error is because Pvt is missing!!

    You are an FTSC member. I should not have to explain it to you. But
    since you completely missed it I will explain anyway. From FTS-5000:

    Duh.... Z1 doesnt do it that way.

    "Z1 doesn't do it that way.." <sigh>

    It is bad enough that Fidonet is divided into zones by politics but for a smoothly operating network, we should at least all adhere to the same agreed upon TECHNICAL standards.

    What is the point of maintaining an independant Fidonet wide institution that documents standards, when Zone x can simply set aside agreed standards and say : Duh... we don't do it that way".

    We might as well disband that independant institution and let the burden of documentation fall on those who say "Duh... "


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 10 22:05:21 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 10 2018 09:03 am

    He declined the nomination.

    So he was nominated. And presumably secunded, or else there would have been nothing to decline. Are you sure he explicitly declined or did he just fail to accept the nomination?

    He declined. Just like I made it pretty plain at the start that I'd not be running unless they couldn't find any other valid candidates.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Ray Quinn@1:214/22 to Björn Felten on Sun Jun 10 21:33:00 2018
    Björn Felten wrote to All <=-

    Another question that concerns the entire FidoNet community is this:

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    Region 10
    1:214/559 Bad Phone Number 000-00-00-00-00

    I just checked and I have in net214.ctl for that node

    ,-Unpublished-,

    in the phone number section, but it shows 000-00-00-00-00 in the current nodelist. Perhaps there is an issue with the RC to whom I send
    automatically the net214.ctl file to weekly (not that there are
    anyupdates).


    ===

    If the right side of the brain controls the left side of the
    body, then only left-handed people are in their right minds.

    ______
    , |[][]|
    ,__| ______| |
    ,__/__]|| ________ | D8 |
    |__!___!!`--'L_______\ |__________|() ___________
    "(_)[___]====(_)(_)=| \_(___________)_/__/=(_)===(_)~'

    73 de Ray Quinn W6RAY
    Visalia, CA USA DM06ii


    ... Deja Booboo: When you feel you've screwed this up before.
    === MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    --- SBBSecho 3.04-Linux
    * Origin: US 99 BBS | Visalia, CA | bbs.quinnnet.org (1:214/22)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 11 11:08:45 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Saturday June 09 2018 13:51, you wrote to me:

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the
    nodelist and their software enforces nodelist lookups?

    Use a private nodelist segment with the 9999 entry and the
    connect data for that application.

    is the nodelist not good enough to use if the entry is already there? maybe they're working on their connections with other members of the network?

    I know you like to play devil's advocate, but this must have been one of your off days. Surely you can do better than that?

    No, of course the entry in the nodelist is not good enough. It does not list any contact info at all, so an override of some kind is needed anyway for establishing a connection with the applicants system.

    Other than that, the reason NlCheck flagged it as "error" is not the presence of the 9999 number as such, but the fact that Pvt is missing.

    BTW, how does the NC repsond to an application coming from -1/-1
    when his software does not support negative net- and node
    numbers?

    that's easy... it is rolled over and displayed as 32767/32676...

    Considering that you had an off day, I will forgive the 767|676 typo.

    Yes, in a 15 bit system, -1 may be representated as 32767. But 15 bit systems are not all that common in Fidonet. 16 or 32 bit systems are more common. In those it would be 65535 or 4294967295.

    I say "may" because I have yet to see nodenumber handling software that allows entering -1 as a node or net number. Binkd rejects it. Fmail rejects it. Maybe TJ's original Fido could handle it.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 11 13:08:12 2018

    On 2018 Jun 10 09:03:12, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    My fear is not gone yet. It ain't over till it's over and it ain't
    over yet.

    He declined the nomination.

    So he was nominated. And presumably secunded, or else there would have been nothing to decline. Are you sure he explicitly declined or did he just fail to accept the nomination?

    it is none of your business...

    Either way, at least two idiots thought it was a good idea if he
    became the next ZC1. My fears were well founded.

    i want to thank you for allowing me to live in your head rent free...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Divorced Barbie: $265.95 - comes with Ken's house, car, furniture & friend. ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 11 13:12:04 2018

    On 2018 Jun 10 09:07:50, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    What is the point of maintaining an independant Fidonet wide
    institution that documents standards, when Zone x can simply set aside agreed standards and say : Duh... we don't do it that way".

    not just "Zone x" but also any developer that writes FTN software... the FTSC documents "current practise"... as such, it is the developers and *Cs that set those practises... using a contact number of "000-0-0-0-0" (and similar) is one
    of those practises as is listing 999 and 9999 new applicant entries...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Mustard on a pig is a gift to the molasses penal colonies.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 11 13:24:56 2018

    On 2018 Jun 11 11:08:44, you wrote to me:

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the
    nodelist and their software enforces nodelist lookups?

    Use a private nodelist segment with the 9999 entry and the connect
    data for that application.

    is the nodelist not good enough to use if the entry is already there?
    maybe they're working on their connections with other members of the
    network?

    I know you like to play devil's advocate,

    not in this case...

    but this must have been one of your off days. Surely you can do better than that?

    it was a true and accurate depiction of one scenario that i know has been performed in the recent past...

    No, of course the entry in the nodelist is not good enough. It does
    not list any contact info at all, so an override of some kind is
    needed anyway for establishing a connection with the applicants
    system.

    apparently not if the applicant is polling for a response and is able to pick up the mail waiting for them...

    Other than that, the reason NlCheck flagged it as "error" is not the presence of the 9999 number as such, but the fact that Pvt is missing.

    i understand that... it doesn't bitch about "Hold" on those entries, either...

    BTW, how does the NC repsond to an application coming from -1/-1
    when his software does not support negative net- and node
    numbers?

    that's easy... it is rolled over and displayed as 32767/32676...

    Considering that you had an off day, I will forgive the 767|676 typo.

    awww...

    Yes, in a 15 bit system, -1 may be representated as 32767. But 15 bit systems are not all that common in Fidonet. 16 or 32 bit systems are more common. In those it would be 65535 or 4294967295.

    it is actually "two's complement" using a multibyte number IIRC ancient history
    correctly...

    I say "may" because I have yet to see nodenumber handling software
    that allows entering -1 as a node or net number. Binkd rejects it.
    Fmail rejects it. Maybe TJ's original Fido could handle it.

    yes, older software of that time did but the newer stuff used a different variable storage format so some things were done a bit differently... more specifically, a lot of it when with unsigned integers...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Don't accept your dog's admiration as evidence that you're wonderful!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to mark lewis on Tue Jun 12 21:02:38 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: mark lewis to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 08 2018 07:00 pm

    The second suggestion is net/9999. NB: number to use in the setup of
    the applicant. P4 does NOT say these -1/-1 or net/9999 should appear
    in the nodelist.

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the nodelist and their software enforces nodelist lookups? once again, you have an extremely limited horizon...

    He may not recall the LO flag. It may not have been well used where he is.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Fri Jun 15 00:09:32 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Monday June 11 2018 13:24, you wrote to me:

    ;E ,1,UUCP_Gateway,Louisville_KY,Allen_Prunty,-Unpublished-,9600,XA,V34,V32T
    ;E -- non Pvt node has no connect info --

    Other than that, the reason NlCheck flagged it as "error" is not
    the presence of the 9999 number as such, but the fact that Pvt is
    missing.

    i understand that... it doesn't bitch about "Hold" on those entries, either...

    Indeed. In addition to Pvt, entries with Hold and Down are not flagged as error
    when the contact info is missing. Well behaving software will not look for contact info when there is a Pvt, Hold or Down keyword. Mailers will not attempt to make a connection and routers may route mail via the hub or Host in case of Pvt or Hold.

    NlCheck was designed as an addendum to ErrFlags. Originally it inserted Pvt when the contact info was missing and field 1 (keyword) was empty. Later the option of flagging the entry as error was added.

    Maybe the explanation for the error could be a bit more verbose...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Fri Jun 15 10:09:51 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Monday June 11 2018 13:24, you wrote to me:

    is the nodelist not good enough to use if the entry is already
    there? maybe they're working on their connections with other
    members of the network?

    I know you like to play devil's advocate,

    not in this case...

    So now you are engaging in your other favourite mode Mode Of Operation: contradict me and argue for the sake of argument.

    When I say it is red, you say it is green.
    When I say it is green, you say it is blue.
    When I say it is blue, you say it is red.

    but this must have been one of your off days. Surely you can do
    better than that?

    it was a true and accurate depiction of one scenario that i know has
    been performed in the recent past...

    And with that you are changing the subject. You original question was:

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the
    nodelist and their software enforces nodelist lookups?

    Now, had I asked that question, surely your answer would have been:

    Use a private nodelist segment with the 9999 entry and the connect
    data for that application.

    And then when I would have argued:

    is the nodelist not good enough to use if the entry is already there?

    You would have answered:

    No, of course the entry in the nodelist is not good enough. It
    does not list any contact info at all, so an override of some
    kind is needed anyway for establishing a connection with the
    applicants system.

    And than I would have responded:

    apparently not if the applicant is polling for a response and is able
    to pick up the mail waiting for them...

    And your response:

    The nodelist entry can only be used one way becasue it contains no
    contact info. The applicant can poll the NC's system. To establish
    if the applicant can accept incoming calls, the NC must call the
    applicant's system. For that the NCs system needs the contact data and
    for that a private nodelist segment for the 9999 entry is needed.

    Other than that: Using net/9999 for more than just the initial contacts needed to complete the application and continue to exchange mail via net/9999 carries the risk that a second applicant also using net/9999 will pick up the mail intended for the first one.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Jun 16 15:15:20 2018

    On 2018 Jun 15 10:09:50, you wrote to me:

    I know you like to play devil's advocate,

    not in this case...

    So now you are engaging in your other favourite mode Mode Of Operation: contradict me and argue for the sake of argument.

    no, i'm not... you don't know me that well...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... The Army is like the Boy Scouts without adult supervision.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Sat Jun 16 22:29:55 2018
    no, i'm not... you don't know me that well...

    For Pete's sake, man. Can you give it a rest already?

    Do you really think that there's a single reader here that do *not* hit the next key whenever they see something from you -- except for the few that wants to feed you as a troll?

    And can the few troll feeders also give it a rest, please?

    // The Moderator

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat Jun 16 17:14:40 2018

    On 2018 Jun 16 22:29:54, you wrote to me:

    no, i'm not... you don't know me that well...

    For Pete's sake, man. Can you give it a rest already?

    he accused me of something i'm not doing... so, no... i don't see you admonishing him...

    Do you really think that there's a single reader here that do *not*
    hit the next key whenever they see something from you -- except for
    the few that wants to feed you as a troll?

    i don't give a fuck...

    And can the few troll feeders also give it a rest, please?

    // The Moderator

    really?!? :shock: :shock: :shock:

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Keep only cheerful friends. The grouches pull you down.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Ray Quinn on Sun Jun 17 08:52:00 2018
    Ray Quinn wrote to Björn Felten <=-

    Björn Felten wrote to All <=-

    Another question that concerns the entire FidoNet community is this:

    Such melodrama.

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    Region 10
    1:214/559 Bad Phone Number 000-00-00-00-00

    I just checked and I have in net214.ctl for that node

    ,-Unpublished-,

    in the phone number section, but it shows 000-00-00-00-00 in the
    current nodelist. Perhaps there is an issue with the RC to whom I send automatically the net214.ctl file to weekly (not that there are anyupdates).

    Yeah, my Makenl configuration was looking at an incorrect location. I
    resolved the issue, sent an update to Janis, and Fidonet can now
    collectively ponder how close we came to collapse and pulled ourselves from
    the brink once again.




    ... What if I told you you can't hurt the newcomers?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.49
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 17 08:55:00 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to mark lewis <=-

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the
    nodelist and their software enforces nodelist lookups?

    Use a private nodelist segment with the 9999 entry and the
    connect data for that application.

    is the nodelist not good enough to use if the entry is already there? maybe they're working on their connections with other members of the network?

    A *c should allow unlisted connections, enforce secure/insecure inbounds,
    and require /9999 netmail applications, in my opinion.

    I've seen too many email applications where I send out a temp nodelist and
    a node number, set them up in areafix/filefix, and the response is that
    they'll be ready "real soon now". Many change their minds.




    ... What do you think management's real interests are?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.49
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jun 17 23:34:04 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    no, i'm not... you don't know me that well...

    For Pete's sake, man. Can you give it a rest already?

    Do you really think that there's a single reader here that do *not*
    hit
    the next key whenever they see something from you -- except for the few that wants to feed you as a troll?

    And can the few troll feeders also give it a rest, please?

    // The Moderator

    Found this item on somebody's private elist/echolist -

    -=begin=-

    TAGname: FIDONEWS GROUP: FIDO

    TITLe: Discussion of the FidoNet Newsletter, FidoNews.

    DESCription: Echo for discussing the content of the weekly editions
    of the FidoNews.

    MODerator: Andrew Leary, 1:320/219.0{at}fidonet
    Email: ajleary19{at}gmail.com

    ORIGin: 1:320/219

    RESTrictions: /REA {REAL Names ONLY}

    DISTribution: All Zones

    GATEway: None

    From: Andrew Leary, 1:320/219

    Updated on: 4/15/2018

    -=end=-

    Which one? Do we get to pick and choose? Or can we
    simply imagine which one is real and which one is not?

    -=begin=-

    Moderator:

    The Fidonews editor, as listed in the nodelist and in the banner of
    the most recent issue of the Fidonews weekly publication, is the
    permanent moderator of this echo.

    Fidonews Editor, 2:2/2, Moderator

    -=end=-

    There must be some way to find out.

    How about I send a message to each Moderator and ask the real one
    to stand up? That way he can be counted. Not only by me, but also
    by all.

    --Lee

    --
    We're Great In Bed

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Mon Jun 18 00:32:15 2018
    There must be some way to find out.

    Not really. Just like some people believe in the fairy tales in their various religious scriptures, some people believe in various echo lists.

    There's just very little hope of making a fanatical believer change his or her mind -- such as about being convinced that the Earth is 5800 years old and it's flat and all the stars and planets revolves around this divine world.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kurt Weiske on Mon Jun 18 10:26:52 2018
    Hello Kurt,

    On Sunday June 17 2018 08:55, you wrote to me:

    A *c should allow unlisted connections, enforce secure/insecure
    inbounds, and require /9999 netmail applications, in my opinion.

    I am 2/3 with you. Yes, *Cs should allow unlisted connections. Once, many years
    ago when I was still a point, we had an NC flying the LO flag. When I pointed it out to the Fidonet community, it was removed..

    As for /required/ /9999 application, that would not have worked well here in the haydays of Fidonet. In the haydays of Z2 Fidonet, the pointlist was the breeding pond for new sysops. Pointing was very popular and 99.9% of the new sysop started out as points. So by the time they were ready for full Fidonet membership, they were alreadty familiar with the software to run a node. And naturally they used their point number to apply for a node number. Using net/9999 to apply for a node number was plan D.

    I've seen too many email applications where I send out a temp nodelist
    and a node number, set them up in areafix/filefix, and the response is that they'll be ready "real soon now". Many change their minds.

    "real soon now" has never flown for me. I will accept a request for a node number by any means convenient, but I will not proceed until the applicant has demonstrated that he/she has a mailer on-line.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jun 17 11:59:16 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to mark lewis on Saturday June 16 2018 at 22:29:

    no, i'm not... you don't know me that well...

    For Pete's sake, man. Can you give it a rest already?

    Do you really think that there's a single reader here that do *not*
    hit the next key whenever they see something from you -- except for
    the few that wants to feed you as a troll?

    Far be it from me to take sides, but I've had some pretty pleasant discussions with Mark in the past. I think the present situation is simply based on different attitudes toward the subject in hand.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Mon Jun 18 11:59:49 2018
    I think the present situation is simply based on different attitudes toward the subject in hand.

    I think that whipping a dead horse is rather futile.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 18 18:53:58 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday June 18 2018 at 11:59:

    I think the present situation is simply based on different attitudes
    toward the subject in hand.

    I think that whipping a dead horse is rather futile.

    True, but it's sometimes enormously satisfying ;-)

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 18 10:40:30 2018

    On 2018 Jun 18 10:26:52, you wrote to Kurt Weiske:

    I've seen too many email applications where I send out a temp
    nodelist and a node number, set them up in areafix/filefix, and the
    response is that they'll be ready "real soon now". Many change their
    minds.

    "real soon now" has never flown for me. I will accept a request for a
    node number by any means convenient, but I will not proceed until the applicant has demonstrated that he/she has a mailer on-line.

    same here... i don't do anything until i can connect to a mailer...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I'd explain it to you, but your brain would explode.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 18 10:44:24 2018

    On 2018 Jun 18 11:59:48, you wrote to Robert Bashe:

    I think the present situation is simply based on different attitudes
    toward the subject in hand.

    I think that whipping a dead horse is rather futile.

    then you should be telling that to mvdv as well... he keeps whipping and beating on numerous dead horses... some so long dead that their graves were dug
    30 years ago...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Political Correctness is tyranny with a Happy Face.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 20 21:45:16 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 10 2018 09:07 am

    Hello Carol,

    On Wednesday June 06 2018 23:23, you wrote to me:

    The reason it is flagged as in error is because Pvt is missing!!

    You are an FTSC member. I should not have to explain it to you. But
    since you completely missed it I will explain anyway. From
    FTS-5000:


    Duh.... Z1 doesnt do it that way.

    "Z1 doesn't do it that way.." <sigh>

    No 2 zones operate identically. I suggest getting on with it.

    It is bad enough that Fidonet is divided into zones by politics but for a smoothly operating network, we should at least all adhere to the same agreed upon TECHNICAL standards.

    The problem is you think the technical standards were agreed on but in cases, they were not. Some where never FTSC listed like the static 0 set I added so Z3 could filter better until all were ready for -Unpublished- entries.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Carol Shenkenberger on Thu Jun 21 16:19:22 2018
    Hi! xxCarol,

    On 06/21/2018 11:45 AM, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Some where never FTSC listed like the static 0 set I added so Z3
    could filter better until all were ready for -Unpublished- entries.

    This statement has me in a head-spin. I can't make sense of what it is that you speak of. What 'static'? Why '0'? With a 'set' of what? 'Filter' what? 'Better' than? Until 'all', who?

    When was this? Early-mid-2004? Was it backroom collusion with Malcolm Miles?
    Or is it really fat fingers and not Z3? Help! :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Red-shifted: The only way to travel ... (3:640/384.125)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carol Shenkenberger on Thu Jun 21 09:50:35 2018
    Hello Carol,

    On Wednesday June 20 2018 21:45, you wrote to me:

    It is bad enough that Fidonet is divided into zones by politics
    but for a smoothly operating network, we should at least all
    adhere to the same agreed upon TECHNICAL standards.

    The problem is you think the technical standards were agreed on but in cases, they were not.

    Listing nodes that have no public contact info as "Pvt" has been an agreed upon
    standard dating from even before the birth of the FTSC.

    ,1,UUCP_Gateway,Louisville_KY,Allen_Prunty,-Unpublished-,9600,XA,V34,V32T

    But apparantly even those 30+ year old agreed upon standards can be swept aside
    by a simple "Duh... Z1 does not do it that way".

    Why the hell do we still bother to invest time and energy into documenting standards?

    Some where never FTSC listed like the static 0 set I added so Z3 could filter better until all were ready for -Unpublished- entries. ---

    ??? English please...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 21 19:03:10 2018
    Hi! Michiel,

    On 06/21/2018 05:50 PM, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    Some where never FTSC listed like the static 0 set I added so Z3
    could filter better until all were ready for -Unpublished-
    entries. ---

    MvdV> ??? English please...

    Argg... it's just made sense to me. She's talking about some sort of filter in
    Z1 that had to be applied to the Z3C segment being submitted, until Z1 was ready to accept IP nodelistings with connect information _without_ 'Pvt,'. I think. Let's await a response...

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: =-DING!-= Dinner's Ready! (3:640/384.125)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Paul Quinn on Thu Jun 21 22:48:08 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Paul Quinn to Carol Shenkenberger on Thu Jun 21 2018 04:19 pm

    Hi! xxCarol,

    On 06/21/2018 11:45 AM, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Some where never FTSC listed like the static 0 set I added so Z3
    could filter better until all were ready for -Unpublished- entries.

    This statement has me in a head-spin. I can't make sense of what it is
    that you speak of. What 'static'? Why '0'? With a 'set' of what?
    'Filter'
    what? 'Better' than? Until 'all', who?

    It's simple. Z3 had real issues with the 000 set dialing your eergency number.
    With no PVT standard for ION's to use, I made one that had no variation so it could be blocked.

    When was this? Early-mid-2004? Was it backroom collusion with Malcolm Miles? Or is it really fat fingers and not Z3? Help! :)

    Actually Malcolm had nothing to do with it.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 21 23:05:19 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Carol Shenkenberger on Thu Jun 21 2018 09:50 am

    Hello Carol,

    On Wednesday June 20 2018 21:45, you wrote to me:

    It is bad enough that Fidonet is divided into zones by politics
    but for a smoothly operating network, we should at least all
    adhere to the same agreed upon TECHNICAL standards.

    The problem is you think the technical standards were agreed on but
    in cases, they were not.

    MV > Listing nodes that have no public contact info as "Pvt" has been an agreed
    upon standard dating from even before the birth of the FTSC.

    Then you went after them as 'make them points' for a decade. As that happened as many went ION, it didnt sit well at all.

    MV > But apparantly even those 30+ year old agreed upon standards can be
    swept
    aside by a simple "Duh... Z1 does not do it that way".

    Congradulations! You did change a zone. You beat too hard on the drum that PVT nodes were not nodes if in Z1, we adapted.

    Go scan Z4 and report to them all your personal objections on connectivity and see if they care a rats ass about your view of who'd allowed tobe nodelisted. --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jun 22 16:28:34 2018
    Hi! xxCarol,

    On 06/22/2018 12:48 PM, you wrote:

    It's simple. Z3 had real issues with the 000 set dialing your
    eergency number. With no PVT standard for ION's to use, I made one
    that had no variation so it could be blocked.

    I know of what you speak, now. I wasn't involved in policy deliberations then and I don't have any such aspirations now.

    Actually Malcolm had nothing to do with it.

    Yes, it was just after the wheel was introduced. What was filtered, BTW?

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: I typed FORMAT COM2 and killed my SysOp! (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jun 22 11:48:14 2018
    When was this? Early-mid-2004? Was it backroom collusion with
    Malcolm Miles? Or is it really fat fingers and not Z3? Help! :)

    Actually Malcolm had nothing to do with it.

    It is amazing how sometimes in Z1 Fidonet history gets re-written the way that for example Trump re-writes his own history to exit as the victor, the innovator ... the true master was Roy Witt.

    This is what happened.

    For starters, Z1 was trailing everybody in IP-implementation because its then ZC1 Bob Satti heavily opposed it, he thought Fido should remain PSTN dial-up only without any vision for the future (and David Moufarrege afterwards wrote a
    very stupid comment about that under political pressure in a ZC-election campaign, which eventually got hi, elected, and that proved to be a breath of fresh air in "A sea of Madness" {CSNY}).

    Putting IP-numbers in the nodelist had not been done before and a methodology had to be devised. I was strongly in favour of using the field-2 to enable developers to pick it up easy and do something with it, some tried to put it in
    the phone field which was strongly discouraged because it was confusing for PSTN-dialers. So I think we got somewhere with that.

    The problem being the IP-only nodes, they were started to be listed as "Pvt,". It caused a rather violent opposition among the fundamentalists who advocate that "Pvt," could only be for 'real' Pvt's and since IP-only basically were points, they shold not be in the nodelist at all (the standard "you know whom I'm taling about" rant). Several formal complaints came my way in Z2, one crazier than the other.

    That was opposed by the IP-only people claiming they were fully fledged nodes and should not be Pvt at all ... a true situation of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

    Real revolution came from R50, the only true revolutionaries that remain, and some started to put in "0-0-0-0" to indicate an undialable IP-node ... I filtered it out with ERRFLAGS. Then it became "000-000-000-000" which I filtered out with ERRFLAGS. Then it appeared that 'any' combination of zeroes could be put there and impossible to filter them all out ... it became a case of "we are going to do this anyway and we will find a way ... whatever", it was
    a pissing-contest and the one thing I know about that is to get out of them as quickly as possible as you might get your feet wet. So I dropped the issue and became an interested spectator.

    Only then did all that crap started to make it into the rest of world-nodelist with the ZONE2-file and some guy in Z1 picked it up. Eventually "000-0-0-0" and
    assorted combinations entered the nodelist unchecked because the ZC1 was incapable of dealing with them or provide any guidance or structure.

    At that point Malcolm Miles DID react pretty strong in the ZCC and in international sysop-echoes because as a medical professional he was very much concerned that bad dial-set-up might in fact call emergency services and lock-up the system overthere in an unexplainable way for which he in the end could be called liable if it ever came to the point. He asked for changes, I supported that.

    Z1 reacted in it's usual way, best described by your words from a while back in
    this conference ...

    ===========================================
    Duh.... Z1 doesnt do it that way. ===========================================

    ... and rather than seeking cooperation over zone-boundaries, the rest of the world got the proverbial middle-finger. Again.

    I'm not certain but I think this is one of the reasons why we lost Malcolm ..

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ward Dossche on Fri Jun 22 20:24:13 2018
    Hi! Ward,

    On 22 Jun 18 11:48, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    I'm not certain but I think this is one of the reasons why we lost
    Malcolm ..

    A lot of water has passed in the meantime. There is a single analogue modem node in this week's weekly Z3 nodelist, which surprises me as Scott hinted back
    in January that he was gonna pull it.

    Cue the bugle, Sylvia...

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... SysOps just like to watch.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jun 22 13:16:27 2018
    It's simple. Z3 had real issues with the 000 set dialing your eergency number.

    Haven't I already explained why this was nothing but a hoax started by an Aussie kid that even thought that the necessary translation of the "raw" phone number was based on the node number.



    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Fri Jun 22 16:24:45 2018
    It's simple. Z3 had real issues with the 000 set dialing your
    eergency number.

    Haven't I already explained why this was nothing but a hoax started by
    an Aussie kid that even thought that the necessary translation of the
    "raw" phone number was based on the node number.

    You were not privy to the backdoor discussion some of us had. Malcolm miles was
    not just "an Aussie kid" when nodelisted.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Fri Jun 22 17:28:23 2018
    Haven't I already explained why this was nothing but a hoax started by
    an Aussie kid that even thought that the necessary translation of the
    "raw" phone number was based on the node number.

    You were not privy to the backdoor discussion some of us had. Malcolm miles was not just "an Aussie kid" when nodelisted.

    True enough, he was not "the kid". He was one of the five ZCs that fell for the hoax.



    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat Jun 23 03:28:46 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    It's simple. Z3 had real issues with the 000 set dialing your eergency
    number.

    Haven't I already explained why this was nothing but a hoax started by an Aussie kid that even thought that the necessary translation of the "raw" phone number was based on the node number.

    Has anybody managed to pull the 999 hoax based on the node number yet?

    In the USA the emergency number is 911.
    In England the emergency number is 999.

    Can't expect all sysops to know every emergency number there is.
    Except those from Sweden. And maybe Belgium.

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sat Jun 23 07:14:52 2018
    Can't expect all sysops to know every emergency number there is.
    Except those from Sweden. And maybe Belgium.

    That's easy, both countries are members of the European Union, so the emergency number is 112.



    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Sat Jun 23 09:28:01 2018

    Can't expect all sysops to know every emergency number there is.
    Except those from Sweden. And maybe Belgium.

    That's easy, both countries are members of the European Union, so the emergency number is 112.

    Even outside the EU a lot of countries, for good reason, are using that number.
    It's part of the GSM standard and used in 119 countries so far.

    In the USA and Canada it will connect to 911 on mobile carriers that offer GSM.
    Does not work on landlines.

    In China it connects to an automated service which reads you the local emergency number in English.

    Dialing 911 in a country where 112 is the standard will automatically connect to 112.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jun 23 10:20:12 2018
    Dialing 911 in a country where 112 is the standard will automatically connect to 112.

    Interesting -- I didn't know that. I do know that many EU countries still have their old number "operational". Such as UK (that Lee mentioned) with their
    999.

    I actually don't know if Sweden's old number (90 000) works...



    ..

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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jun 23 18:46:00 2018
    On 06-23-18 09:28, Ward Dossche wrote to Björn Felten <=-

    Dialing 911 in a country where 112 is the standard will automatically connect to 112.

    While 000 is the official emergency number in Australia, I believe both 112 (because it is a GSM standard - known to work) and 911 (because of the amount of American TV we get here) also work on mobile networks.


    ... Racial prejudice is a pigment of the imagination.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat Jun 23 10:58:16 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Saturday June 23 2018 10:20, you wrote:

    Interesting -- I didn't know that. I do know that many EU countries still have their old number "operational". Such as UK (that Lee
    mentioned) with their 999.

    I actually don't know if Sweden's old number (90 000) works...

    The old Dutch emergency number (0611) does not work any more. It is now in use as the first four digits of "normal" mobile telephone numbers.

    911 does work in The Netherlands and redirects to 112.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat Jun 23 22:01:57 2018

    I actually don't know if Sweden's old number (90 000) works...

    You could find that out easy ... 8-)

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Paul Quinn on Sat Jun 23 22:07:57 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Paul Quinn to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jun 22 2018 04:28 pm

    It's simple. Z3 had real issues with the 000 set dialing your
    eergency number. With no PVT standard for ION's to use, I made one
    that had no variation so it could be blocked.

    I know of what you speak, now. I wasn't involved in policy deliberations then and I don't have any such aspirations now.

    Actually Malcolm had nothing to do with it.

    Yes, it was just after the wheel was introduced. What was filtered, BTW?

    What do you mean? The only thing the 0-0-0-0 dry did was make it easy for Z3 sysops to not dial their emergency number by accident.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jun 23 22:26:30 2018
    Re: Re: The Z1 election
    By: Ward Dossche to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jun 22 2018 11:48 am

    Z1 reacted in it's usual way, best described by your words from a while
    back in this conference ...

    ===========================================
    Duh.... Z1 doesnt do it that way.
    ===========================================

    Sorry Ward but that was taken out of context comletely for the 000-0-0-0-0 set.

    (or was it 0000?) Either way, Z1 only followed a pattern from another zone tht was devised to ease things in Z3 until all could go the -Unpublished- route.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat Jun 23 22:28:41 2018
    Re: The history of the 000 country phone number
    By: Bj”rn Felten to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jun 22 2018 01:16 pm

    It's simple. Z3 had real issues with the 000 set dialing your
    eergency number.

    Haven't I already explained why this was nothing but a hoax started by an Aussie kid that even thought that the necessary translation of the "raw" phone number was based on the node number.

    You are smoning some really good weed there!

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 24 12:48:25 2018
    Hi! xxCarol,

    On 23 Jun 18 22:07, you wrote to me:

    What was filtered, BTW?

    What do you mean? The only thing the 0-0-0-0 dry did was make it easy
    for Z3 sysops to not dial their emergency number by accident.

    Bloody marvelous. Thank you.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Paranoid: Someone who just figured out what's going on.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jun 23 12:26:06 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Björn Felten on Saturday June 23 2018 at 09:28:

    Dialing 911 in a country where 112 is the standard will automatically connect to 112.

    It will? Does that also apply to Germany? I've never heard of anything like this, and don't want to try since that would be abuse of the service, but it would be good to know.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 24 10:04:18 2018
    Carol,

    Either way, Z1 only followed a pattern from another zone tht
    was devised to ease things in Z3 until all could go the -Unpublished- route.

    That still is re-writing Fido-history...

    I cannot exactly remember one single instance where zone-1 "acted as a zone" in
    the interest of Fidonet...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Sun Jun 24 10:04:42 2018
    Dialing 911 in a country where 112 is the standard will automatically RB>WD> connect to 112.

    It will? Does that also apply to Germany? I've never heard of anything
    like
    this, and don't want to try since that would be abuse of the service, but it would be good to know.

    Also your old emergency number 110 still is valid and connects to 112.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jun 24 10:18:40 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday June 24 2018 at 10:04:

    Dialing 911 in a country where 112 is the standard will
    automatically connect to 112.

    It will? Does that also apply to Germany? I've never heard of
    anything like this, and don't want to try since that would be abuse
    of the service, but it would be good to know.

    Also your old emergency number 110 still is valid and connects to 112.

    It is? I can't remember what number I dialed on 31.12.2017 or later on the 11th
    of February, when I suffered a dislocation. It was 11 something... at any rate I managed to get help both times.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 24 13:03:10 2018
    Haven't I already explained why this was nothing but a hoax started by an
    Aussie kid that even thought that the necessary translation of the "raw"
    phone number was based on the node number.

    You are smoning some really good weed there!

    Albeit it was in FTSC_PUBLIC that I explained in detail why a POTS mailer configured to dial it's NC, or any other node for that matter, not even theoretically could dial 000.

    As a member of FTSC I assumed that you kept an eye on the _PUBLIC echo as well. My mistake?



    ..

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jun 24 13:35:39 2018
    Albeit it was in FTSC_PUBLIC that I explained in detail why a POTS
    mailer configured to dial it's NC, or any other node for that matter, not even theoretically could dial 000.

    You explained nothing, merely forwarded a theory without supporting evidence.

    I just configured my mailer appropriately and 'whammo' it was prepared to dial "000-647-847-2083" ... had there been a modem attached.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jun 24 17:31:16 2018
    it was prepared to dial "000-647-847-2083"

    All EU countries have 00 as international call prefix, so if properly configured the above should be 00000- and so on.

    But that would NOT call the Aussie emergency number. In all other countries it should be safe to call that number.

    Australia has (or at least had) the prefix 0011, so the above should be 0011000- and so on.



    ..

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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jun 24 17:56:05 2018
    I actually don't know if Sweden's old number (90 000) works...

    You could find that out easy ... 8-)

    The penalty for prank calling our emergency number can be severe, so thanks,
    but no thanks. 8-)



    ..

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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 25 00:50:46 2018
    Bj”rn Felten -> Ward Dossche skrev 2018-06-24 17:31:
    Australia has (or at least had) the prefix 0011, so the above should be 0011000- and so on.

    So, if you want "supporting evidence" maybe we should ask one of our Aussie friends (Paul, David, Tony or someone else from down under) to pick up their phone and dial 0011000 and tell us what happens.

    This should of course have easily been done already two decades ago, when this hoax was turned into truth by five of the six ZCs back then...



    ..

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  • From Ray Quinn@1:214/22 to Kurt Weiske on Sun Jun 17 18:11:00 2018
    Kurt Weiske wrote to Ray Quinn <=-

    Ray Quinn wrote to Björn Felten <=-

    Björn Felten wrote to All <=-

    Another question that concerns the entire FidoNet community is this:

    Such melodrama.

    Q: What are you planning to do about these issues?

    Region 10
    1:214/559 Bad Phone Number 000-00-00-00-00

    I just checked and I have in net214.ctl for that node

    ,-Unpublished-,

    in the phone number section, but it shows 000-00-00-00-00 in the
    current nodelist. Perhaps there is an issue with the RC to whom I send automatically the net214.ctl file to weekly (not that there are anyupdates).

    Yeah, my Makenl configuration was looking at an incorrect location. I resolved the issue, sent an update to Janis, and Fidonet can now collectively ponder how close we came to collapse and pulled ourselves from the brink once again.

    Oh the horror! <BIG GRIN>

    BTW, was your trip for business or pleasure? Either way, did you have fun?



    ===

    If the right side of the brain controls the left side of the
    body, then only left-handed people are in their right minds.

    ______
    , |[][]|
    ,__| ______| |
    ,__/__]|| ________ | D8 |
    |__!___!!`--'L_______\ |__________|() ___________
    "(_)[___]====(_)(_)=| \_(___________)_/__/=(_)===(_)~'

    73 de Ray Quinn W6RAY
    Visalia, CA USA DM06ii


    ... Deja Booboo: When you feel you've screwed this up before.
    === MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    --- SBBSecho 3.04-Linux
    * Origin: US 99 BBS | Visalia, CA | bbs.quinnnet.org (1:214/22)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 25 11:32:54 2018
    Hi! Bj”rn,

    On 25 Jun 18 00:50, you wrote to you:

    Australia has (or at least had) the prefix 0011, so the above
    should be 0011000- and so on.

    What's the prefix for? I used to use a 0015 prefix to get international fax lines, in FrontDoor, BinkleyTerm & Radius. With the last two mailers, I converted the 000-based nodelistings' phone numbers to a known recorded voice message (RVM) service.

    So, if you want "supporting evidence" maybe we should ask one of
    our Aussie friends (Paul, David, Tony or someone else from down under)
    to pick up their phone and dial 0011000 and tell us what happens.

    I can't get past a RVM "Your call could not be connected...". Now what?

    This should of course have easily been done already two decades
    ago, when this hoax was turned into truth by five of the six ZCs back then...

    Maybe they did, and couldn't see the sense in reporting back.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... BoomDeYada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC-jau-fpJY
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 25 12:50:00 2018
    On 06-25-18 00:50, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Bj”rn Felten <=-

    Bj”rn Felten -> Ward Dossche skrev 2018-06-24 17:31:
    Australia has (or at least had) the prefix 0011, so the above should be 0011000- and so on.

    So, if you want "supporting evidence" maybe we should ask one of our Aussie friends (Paul, David, Tony or someone else from down under) to
    pick up their phone and dial 0011000 and tell us what happens.

    These days, that's complicated by the fact that landlines are on the way out, and some VoIP providers can't route certain numbers. I see this with some 1300 and 1800 numbers. To call those, I have to use the mobile phone.

    This should of course have easily been done already two decades ago, when this hoax was turned into truth by five of the six ZCs back
    then...

    Yeah, the IDD code is normally 0011 here, so to call a 000 country coad would be 0011000.


    ... Success usually comes to those too busy to look for it.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 25 13:33:17 2018
    On 25/06/2018 08:50, 2:203/2 wrote:
    Australia has (or at least had) the prefix 0011, so the above should
    be 0011000- and so on.

    So, if you want "supporting evidence" maybe we should ask one of our Aussie friends (Paul, David, Tony or someone else from down under) to
    pick up their phone and dial 0011000 and tell us what happens.

    This should of course have easily been done already two decades ago, when this hoax was turned into truth by five of the six ZCs back then...

    While I have not tried your dialling suggestion I doubt that I would get the Aussie emergency services.

    0011 would connect me to the international phone system and it expects a country code to come next e.g. 0011 46 (for Sweden), and then the area code, then the subscriber number.

    As far as I know there is no country code 000.

    <later> OK, I dialled 0011000 on my 4G phone - it made some international noises then..... nothing.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to David Drummond on Mon Jun 25 13:42:02 2018
    On 25/06/2018 13:33, 3:640/305 wrote:

    As far as I know there is no country code 000.

    <later> OK, I dialled 0011000 on my 4G phone - it made some
    international noises then..... nothing.

    So... if I had dialled 0011 46 31 96 04 20 who might I have spoken to?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Mon Jun 25 07:24:28 2018
    So... if I had dialled 0011 46 31 96 04 20 who might I have spoken to?

    That would be me (and not a modem -- how on Earth did you know?). 8-)



    ..

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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Mon Jun 25 07:25:58 2018
    <later> OK, I dialled 0011000 on my 4G phone - it made some
    international noises then..... nothing.

    Thanks. Proof enough for you, Ward and Carol?



    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Paul Quinn on Mon Jun 25 09:01:15 2018
    I can't get past a RVM "Your call could not be connected...". Now what?

    Now we sit back and enjoy that the Aussie emergency number is safe from mailer calls. Q.E.D.



    ..

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Mon Jun 25 09:13:11 2018
    I can't get past a RVM "Your call could not be connected...". Now
    what?

    Now we sit back and enjoy that the Aussie emergency number is safe
    from mailer calls. Q.E.D.

    Not at all.

    I can configure my mailer it dials '000'. If I can do it here, someone could do
    it overthere. Your QED down the trash ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 25 09:46:36 2018
    I can configure my mailer it dials '000'. If I can do it here, someone could do it overthere.

    No they can't unless they deliberately use the wrong IDD prefix and why would they?

    And if you have configured your mailer correctly it should dial 00000, not the number you showed in your previous message. Nice try, but no cookie this time.


    ..

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  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Björn Felten on Mon Jun 25 17:38:57 2018
    Hi! Björn,

    On 06/25/2018 05:01 PM, you wrote:

    I can't get past a RVM "Your call could not be connected...". Now
    what?

    Now we sit back and enjoy that the Aussie emergency number is safe from mailer calls. Q.E.D.

    You probably missed the memo. There hasn't been any such danger for quite some
    time. The last active analogue modem in all of Z3 is in a locked perspex display box, at the residence of his excellency the Z3C.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: It works better if you plug it in. (3:640/384.125)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Paul Quinn on Mon Jun 25 09:54:22 2018
    You probably missed the memo. There hasn't been any such danger for
    quite some time. The last active analogue modem in all of Z3 is in a locked perspex display box, at the residence of his excellency the Z3C.

    LOL! I guess that settles it for good. 8-)

    Ward, your ball.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 25 10:33:28 2018
    I can configure my mailer it dials '000'. If I can do it here,
    someone could do it overthere.

    No they can't unless they deliberately use the wrong IDD prefix and
    why would they?

    The discussion back in time, again ... to which you have not been privy, was about "accidental dialing" through incorrect configuration by a newbee ...

    And if you have configured your mailer correctly it should dial 00000,
    not the number you showed in your previous message. Nice try, but no
    cookie this time.

    Again. I have enough time as a sysop in different positions as well as some 30 years being employed by a telco to be knowledgeable.

    If I manage to translate "1-647-847-2083", which is Nick Andre's number (who according to the election rules should be announced as the new ZC1 today), into
    "000-647-847-2083" in an Aussi-environment, then it will dial "000" and the telco-switch will stop interpreting after that because it is a recognisable string it can work with.

    Ergo, if an untranslated number "000-0-0-0" or any combination of zeroes such as "0-0-0-0" is dialed in an Aussie environment, then again it will dial "000" and the switch will stop dealing with whatever follows...

    In the same fashion, if in a Swedish environment I were to translate your number "46-31-960447" through some enormous mistake into "112-31-960447", it connects me to Swedish emergency services nearby and then I get my ass whipped for behaving irresponsible.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 25 11:00:20 2018
    If I manage to translate "1-647-847-2083", which is Nick Andre's number (who according to the election rules should be announced as the new ZC1 today), into "000-647-847-2083" in an Aussi-environment, then it will
    dial "000" and the telco-switch will stop interpreting after that
    because it is a recognisable string it can work with.

    If you manage that, how did you get the nodelist with the phone number in it? With that setting you couldn't even have connected to your NC, so you shouldn't have a node number in the first place.

    Rather outlandish reasoning. With that fear we shouldn't be allowed to use mailers at all because there's always a way to dial whatever number you want.


    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Björn Felten on Sun Jun 24 18:22:22 2018
    Hello Björn!

    24 Jun 18 17:31, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    it was prepared to dial "000-647-847-2083"

    All EU countries have 00 as international call prefix, so if properly configured the above should be 00000- and so on.

    But that would NOT call the Aussie emergency number. In all other countries it should be safe to call that number.

    Australia has (or at least had) the prefix 0011, so the above should be 0011000- and so on.

    My guess is, that the fear of accidentally calling the alarm number, was
    not for foreign or wellbehaved systems to do so, but more for local not
    or poorly configured local systems.

    In general it is not possible to call an emergency number from another
    country.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jun 25 11:35:22 2018
    My guess is, that the fear of accidentally calling the alarm number,
    was
    not for foreign or wellbehaved systems to do so, but more for local not
    or poorly configured local systems.

    Yes, that's what they said. But when I asked over and over again for a sample translation table that worked to call the NC *AND* calling the emergency
    number, I never got any reply. Needless to say, because it's impossible...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Paul Quinn on Mon Jun 25 19:54:00 2018
    -=> On 06-25-18 17:38, Paul Quinn wrote to Björn Felten <=-

    You probably missed the memo. There hasn't been any such danger for
    quite some time. The last active analogue modem in all of Z3 is in a locked perspex display box, at the residence of his excellency the Z3C.

    I could fix that, but I'd have to do it over VoIP. :)


    ... Bugs are sons of glitches
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Björn Felten on Mon Jun 25 12:04:44 2018
    Hello Björn!

    25 Jun 18 11:35, you wrote to me:

    My guess is, that the fear of accidentally calling the alarm
    number, was
    not for foreign or wellbehaved systems to do so, but more for local
    not
    or poorly configured local systems.

    Yes, that's what they said. But when I asked over and over again for a sample translation table that worked to call the NC *AND* calling the emergency number, I never got any reply. Needless to say, because it's impossible...

    How about not using a translation table?
    Or no rule matches.

    Any way, instead of putting a lot of thought into what possible misstakes
    a fool can make, a shortcut was proposed, let's not do it.

    It is better to be safe than sorry, and it is impossible to make anything
    foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

    As long a no wannabee sysop in Oz finds a modem on a flea market, the
    subject seems to be moot.

    In Dutch wel call it: "Rescueing old cows from a ditch"

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Tony Langdon on Mon Jun 25 20:14:16 2018
    Hi! Tony,

    On 25 Jun 18 19:54, you wrote to me:

    You probably missed the memo. There hasn't been any such danger
    for quite some time. The last active analogue modem in all of Z3
    is in a locked perspex display box, at the residence of his
    excellency the Z3C.

    I could fix that, but I'd have to do it over VoIP. :)

    Same here. My original Win98SE Pent90+USR v.everything are still downstairs under a dust cover. It was powered down in 2012 on purpose so that its very essences could be transferred to a VirtualBox, unfortunately without the modem.
    (No COM port on the new Dell host, you see.) The hardware should still work with a new 'hostname' & TCP/IP voodoo.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... It's nothing that a warm-boot can't fix...
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 25 12:10:29 2018

    Rather outlandish reasoning. With that fear we shouldn't be allowed to
    use mailers at all because there's always a way to dial whatever number
    you want.

    Indeed, hence "000" can be dialed in an Aussie environment.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jun 25 12:13:16 2018

    In general it is not possible to call an emergency number from another country.

    How would that work in border areas? I know it's not exactly the case you are presenting but what if someone on my side of the border picks up a cell-signal from KPN and dials 112 ...

    Interested how they deal with that.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 25 12:10:12 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Monday June 25 2018 09:54, you wrote to Paul Quinn:

    You probably missed the memo. There hasn't been any such danger
    for quite some time. The last active analogue modem in all of Z3
    is in a locked perspex display box, at the residence of his
    excellency the Z3C.

    LOL! I guess that settles it for good. 8-)

    No, it does not.

    My POV is that entering anything other than -Unpublished- or a valid dialable number that connects to a modem is a bad idea. Why? Because classic POTS mailers were designed under that assumption.

    All (AFAIK) classic mailers POTS had the option of using translation tables to add or truncate dialling prefixes and such. In general they were flexible enough to translate any phone number into any other phone number.

    But... there was no option to not dial certain numbers at all. My POTS mailer, InterMail, had no documented way to tell it to never attempt to dial numbers starting with 000-. Yes, I know your beloved FrontDoor had that option, but my InterMail did not. You can argue that therefore Frontdoor classifies as a "decent" mailer and my InterMail did not, but that does not alter the fact that
    there were and probably still are classic POTS mailers around that can not properly deal with 000- numbers - or any other numbers - that should never be dialed.

    Add to that that there is no general way to predict what will happen if one dials an unvalid number. Carol has demonstrated that dialing the international prefix followed by the country code of the USA followed by 0, will connect to an operator in the US. At least when dialing from Japan. Who knows what will happen when you try it from Timbuktu. Attempting to automatically dial "non existant" numbers is unsafe!!

    It does not really concern me personally any more. I no longer have a POTS setup. Dod not have one for the last five years. And for the five years before that I configured it to never automatically dial out. Too much garbage in the nodelist...

    Despite that it is an issue that is dying out, I still say there should naver be anything other than -Unpublished- or a valid dialable telephone number in field 7 of the nodelist.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 25 14:10:24 2018
    Hello Ward!

    25 Jun 18 12:13, you wrote to me:

    In general it is not possible to call an emergency number from another
    country.

    How would that work in border areas? I know it's not exactly the case you are presenting but what if someone on my side of the border picks up a cell-signal from KPN and dials 112 ...

    Interested how they deal with that.

    I just checked an official website for the Netherlands.

    When you are connected to an alarm center across the border, you are asked
    if you want to have your call forwarded. This only works for calls made with
    a valid sim card.

    Foreign alarm centers block alarm call from calls made without as simcard.

    In nearly all EU callcenters English, French and German is understood.

    Ik now that in the beginning of Voip calls, calling 112 was not possible
    or appreciated, als the origin of the call could not be checked.

    It is ofcourse very confusing if someone uses a Voipfone with a Dutch local
    number while calling from Spain. The 112 call will be received at the Dutch
    alarm center.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 25 16:44:00 2018

    On 2018 Jun 25 09:13:10, you wrote to Björn Felten:

    Now we sit back and enjoy that the Aussie emergency number is safe
    from mailer calls. Q.E.D.

    Not at all.

    I can configure my mailer it dials '000'. If I can do it here, someone could do it overthere. Your QED down the trash ...

    the phrase "properly configured mailer" is important in this argument... it has
    always been an important part... your mailer is your responsibility... if you break it, you own all parts... if your mailer makes unwanted calls, that's on you and always has been... if your mailer is not configured properly, the responsibility of any ""mishaps"" sits squarely on your shoulders... even if that means you have to deal with the police for some task your misconfigured mailer performed...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Such companies give a bad name to the penis enhancement business.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jun 25 16:52:32 2018

    On 2018 Jun 25 12:04:44, you wrote to Björn Felten:

    My guess is, that the fear of accidentally calling the alarm
    number, was not for foreign or wellbehaved systems to do so, but
    more for local not or poorly configured local systems.

    Yes, that's what they said. But when I asked over and over again for
    a sample translation table that worked to call the NC *AND* calling
    the emergency number, I never got any reply. Needless to say, because
    it's impossible...

    How about not using a translation table?

    you /have/ to use a translation table... without it, you can't connect to your NC or any other local call systems... you won't be able to connect to other systems that are LD to you but not international calls, either... this is one of the reasons why the nodelist carries the full phone number including country
    code...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... They don't have a clue that this wasn't normal everywhere.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Paul Quinn on Tue Jun 26 08:03:00 2018
    On 06-25-18 20:14, Paul Quinn wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I could fix that, but I'd have to do it over VoIP. :)

    Same here. My original Win98SE Pent90+USR v.everything are still downstairs under a dust cover. It was powered down in 2012 on purpose
    so that its very essences could be transferred to a VirtualBox, unfortunately without the modem.
    (No COM port on the new Dell host, you see.) The hardware should
    still work with a new 'hostname' & TCP/IP voodoo.

    I still have several 56k modems, which I scored when I helped close down an office years ago. The rest is nothing that couldn't be fixed without SEXPOTS and possibly a USB to RS-232 adapter.


    ... A failure will not appear till a unit has passed final inspection.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kees van Eeten on Tue Jun 26 08:33:00 2018
    On 06-25-18 14:10, Kees van Eeten wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

    I just checked an official website for the Netherlands.

    When you are connected to an alarm center across the border, you are asked
    if you want to have your call forwarded. This only works for calls
    made with
    a valid sim card.

    So far, that makes sense. This is not an issue I'm familiar with, because such calls are impossible here Australia has its own "moat" that kinda makes it hard to access cell towers from another country. :D

    Foreign alarm centers block alarm call from calls made without as simcard.

    Hmm, I thought it was supposed to be possible to make emergency calls without a SIM, or without credit.

    In nearly all EU callcenters English, French and German is understood.

    Ik now that in the beginning of Voip calls, calling 112 was not
    possible
    or appreciated, als the origin of the call could not be checked.

    In Australia, the reputable providers require subscribers to have accurate address information in their database, which is compiled into the national number database, alongside POTS. Now that VoIP is the only possible landline option for many, they're going to have to just accept that. :)

    It is ofcourse very confusing if someone uses a Voipfone with a Dutch local
    number while calling from Spain. The 112 call will be received at the Dutch
    alarm center.

    Yes, travel will be an issue. I took an Aussie number to the US for 2 weeks, using a softphone to keep in touch with home. Back then, when VoIP was relatively uncommon, the providers did say not to use it for emergency calls, and it was expected there was a landline or mobile phone around - the VoIP was more supplementary. But today, VoIP is now the only fixed line option. That is the case for me.


    ... Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Tue Jun 26 08:37:00 2018
    On 06-25-18 16:52, mark lewis wrote to Kees van Eeten <=-

    How about not using a translation table?

    you /have/ to use a translation table... without it, you can't connect
    to your NC or any other local call systems... you won't be able to
    connect to other systems that are LD to you but not international
    calls, either... this is one of the reasons why the nodelist carries
    the full phone number including country code...

    Agree. It's been a long time since I've done it, but I certainly remember having to get my translation table right, before compiling the nodelist. Interestingly, when Australia renumbered its phone network in the mid 1990s (as the height of my BBSing days), there was no change to the table that I could recall. I inspected my translation table and did a test compile, and all looked good with the resulting phone numbers. :)


    ... Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555.1 to Tony Langdon on Tue Jun 26 01:18:32 2018
    Hello Tony,

    On Tuesday June 26 2018 08:37, you wrote to mark lewis:

    Interestingly, when Australia renumbered its phone network in the mid 1990s (as the height of my BBSing days), there was no change to the
    table that I could recall.

    That was about the same time that we had major renumbering operation in The Netherlands. I had to edit the translation table because there was a time when local numbers could only be called WITHOUT the area code and the areas were made bigger. More digits to the local number and shorter area codes. Also the total number of digits to dial for a non local call were fixed at ten digits. In the old system is was variable. 7 to 9 digits.

    Not much later local calls could either be made by dialing the full 10 digit number including the area code or just dialing the local number.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/5555.1)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 26 01:29:14 2018
    LOL! I guess that settles it for good. 8-)

    MvdV> No, it does not.

    Yes it does. I recommend you to read the various explanations from Tony.

    I can only repeat for the umpteenth time, that there is no way to configure any Aussie POTS mailer to:

    A) Be able to call your NC properly.

    B) Call 000 from the nodelist.

    Anyone with a sample translation table for any mailer is welcome to prove me
    wrong. So far nobody has been able to do that for two decades, and as the Noble
    Art of Configuring a POTS Mailer is slowly descending it's highly unlikely that
    there will ever be a winner.


    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue Jun 26 09:39:56 2018
    On 25/06/2018 15:24, 2:203/2 wrote:
    So... if I had dialled 0011 46 31 96 04 20 who might I have spoken
    to?

    That would be me (and not a modem -- how on Earth did you know?). 8-)

    When I googled the Swedish country code, the hit offered to search the Swedish phone book - and your name was the first one that popped to mind...

    There is no privacy with the Internet of today. :)

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Tony Langdon on Tue Jun 26 09:45:00 2018
    On 25/06/2018 19:54, Tony Langdon -> Paul Quinn wrote:
    ï++-=>> On 06-25-18 17:38, Paul Quinn wrote to Bj+¶rn Felten <=-

    You probably missed the memo. There hasn't been any such danger for
    quite some time. The last active analogue modem in all of Z3 is in a
    locked perspex display box, at the residence of his excellency the
    Z3C.

    I could fix that, but I'd have to do it over VoIP. :)

    Do analogue modems work OK over VOIP?

    I had this impression that the frequency range on VOIP was somewhat compressed.
    Would V90, V56 or even V34 work?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 25 19:45:40 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to mark lewis on Fri Jun 15 2018 10:09 am

    how can the NC respond to a 9999 number if it is not in the
    nodelist and their software enforces nodelist lookups?

    Now, had I asked that question, surely your answer would have been:

    Use a private nodelist segment with the 9999 entry and the connect
    data for that application.

    And then when I would have argued:

    is the nodelist not good enough to use if the entry is already
    there?


    You would have answered:

    No, of course the entry in the nodelist is not good enough. It
    does not list any contact info at all, so an override of some
    kind is needed anyway for establishing a connection with the
    applicants system.

    And than I would have responded:

    apparently not if the applicant is polling for a response and is
    able to pick up the mail waiting for them...

    And your response:

    The nodelist entry can only be used one way becasue it contains no
    contact info. The applicant can poll the NC's system. To establish
    if the applicant can accept incoming calls, the NC must call the
    applicant's system. For that the NCs system needs the contact data
    and for that a private nodelist segment for the 9999 entry is needed.

    Other than that: Using net/9999 for more than just the initial contacts needed to complete the application and continue to exchange mail via net/9999 carries the risk that a second applicant also using net/9999 will pick up the mail intended for the first one.

    Therehas always been that potential of 2 nodes applying in the same week. Normlly session security was established right away. Other setups used multiple hubs fronting /9999 numbers.

    I used to host points and my NC's always knew in advance that they were setting up and when they felt confident to apply, would be 1:275/100.5 (or whatever, did much of that in net 202 actually).

    It was never required to do it in a specific way. If it worked, folks used it.
    Some did the -1 thing. Many did the /9999 thing but no preset nodelist entry for it.

    It's just a different setup than you are used to. It functioned just fine.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 25 20:28:42 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Kurt Weiske on Mon Jun 18 2018 10:26 am

    A *c should allow unlisted connections, enforce secure/insecure
    inbounds, and require /9999 netmail applications, in my opinion.

    I am 2/3 with you. Yes, *Cs should allow unlisted connections. Once, many years ago when I was still a point, we had an NC flying the LO flag. When I pointed it out to the Fidonet community, it was removed..

    As for /required/ /9999 application, that would not have worked well here in the haydays of Fidonet. In the haydays of Z2 Fidonet, the pointlist was the breeding pond for new sysops. Pointing was very popular and 99.9% of the new sysop started out as points. So by the time they were ready for full Fidonet membership, they were alreadty familiar with the software to run a node. And naturally they used their point number to apply for a node number. Using net/9999 to apply for a node number was plan D.

    Same here I was. When I applied, it was with a point number and advance knowledge to my NC of the time (Brenda Donovan). I was required to reset to a /9999 number off my assigned hub. *sigh*.

    I prefer when possible, that new nodes use a point number for application for that short bit as it's neater for all. P4 isn't considered as disallowing it in Z1.Most are really easy going about it.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to David Drummond on Mon Jun 25 20:53:32 2018
    On 26 Jun 18 09:45:00, David Drummond said the following to Tony Langdon:

    On 25/06/2018 19:54, Tony Langdon -> Paul Quinn wrote:
    *++-=>> On 06-25-18 17:38, Paul Quinn wrote to Bj+*rn Felten <=-

    You probably missed the memo. There hasn't been any such danger for
    quite some time. The last active analogue modem in all of Z3 is in a
    locked perspex display box, at the residence of his excellency the
    Z3C.

    I could fix that, but I'd have to do it over VoIP. :)

    Do analogue modems work OK over VOIP?

    Yes, mine does. But it has to be downclocked to 9600 baud.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Ben Ritchey@1:393/68 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 25 20:09:48 2018
    * An ongoing debate between Nick Andre and David Drummond rages on ...

    Do analogue modems work OK over VOIP?
    Yes, mine does. But it has to be downclocked to 9600 baud.

    Why? I get connects up to 24000 using MagicJack VOIP and they work just fine :)


    .-- Keep the faith, -------------------------------------------------.
    | |
    | Ben aka cMech Web: http|ftp|binkp|telnet://cmech.dynip.com |
    | Email: fido4cmech(at)lusfiber.net |
    | Home page: http://cmech.dynip.com/homepage/ |
    | |
    `-------- WildCat! BBS 24/7 +1-337-984-4794 any BAUD 8,N,1 -------'

    ... Cats like "Pro-Cat-Stinating"---it's the "Cats-Meow!"--jkb
    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC v1.1.5-b20170303 + Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 4/21 20:23
    * Origin: FIDONet - The Positronium Repository (1:393/68)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Paul Quinn on Mon Jun 25 21:24:32 2018
    Re: The Z1 election
    By: Paul Quinn to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 24 2018 12:48 pm

    What do you mean? The only thing the 0-0-0-0 try did was make it
    easy for Z3 sysops to not dial their emergency number by accident.

    Bloody marvelous. Thank you.

    Welcome! It made a static block for you guys. I believe it was 0000-0-0-0-0 and initiated by Z6 who always tied close to Z3. Z1 folllowed fast. In fact, it was almost imddediate as in within a week or so.

    It was known to not be perfect, but it was at least a try to make things better.

    Z1 understood the issue because of our own 911 set. Moot now with the -Unpublished- in full flow, moot stuff.

    You'll be happy to know that a main thing Z1 looked for in our election, was how well the candidates worked and played well with other zones. We prioritized people skills that can solve or smoothe interzonal issues.

    No matter what else 'stuff' you see here, that was what we were doing there in Z1. Both were excellent at it so we had a win-win going on.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jun 25 21:28:56 2018
    Re: The 000 country phone number hoax
    By: Bj”rn Felten to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 24 2018 01:03 pm

    Haven't I already explained why this was nothing but a hoax started
    by an Aussie kid that even thought that the necessary translation
    of the "raw" phone number was based on the node number.

    You are smoning some really good weed there!

    Albeit it was in FTSC_PUBLIC that I explained in detail why a POTS mailer configured to dial it's NC, or any other node for that matter, not even theoretically could dial 000.

    The entry was in the phone number field.

    Talk to Z3 members if you do not believe 000 at the start of the phone field was an issue for them. It was also a main issue with Z2 on entry of IONs and PVT listing.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Ben Ritchey on Mon Jun 25 21:55:17 2018
    On 25 Jun 18 20:09:48, Ben Ritchey said the following to Nick Andre:

    * An ongoing debate between Nick Andre and David Drummond rages on ...

    Do analogue modems work OK over VOIP?
    Yes, mine does. But it has to be downclocked to 9600 baud.

    Why? I get connects up to 24000 using MagicJack VOIP and they work just fin

    I found too much latency and dropped-carrier on anything higher than 9600 baud here... and I have a 50mb connection.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Carol Shenkenberger on Tue Jun 26 11:51:20 2018
    Hi! Carol,

    On 25 Jun 18 21:24, you wrote to me:

    No matter what else 'stuff' you see here, that was what we were doing there in Z1. Both were excellent at it so we had a win-win going on.

    Yes. I would have had to resort to a coin-flip to decide which candidate deserved my vote. Nice blokes.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Blatant gun nut! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gc7xZws0aQ
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Ray Quinn on Mon Jun 25 22:11:00 2018
    Ray Quinn wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

    BTW, was your trip for business or pleasure? Either way, did you have
    fun?

    Pleasure - 3 days of wine tasting along the California Coast, then 2 days
    in Disneyland for the kids.



    ... Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.49
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Paul Quinn on Mon Jun 25 22:13:00 2018
    Paul Quinn wrote to BjArn Felten <=-

    You probably missed the memo. There hasn't been any such danger for
    quite some time. The last active analogue modem in all of Z3 is in a locked perspex display box, at the residence of his excellency the Z3C.

    He could have just added ATL0 to the dialing string to turn the speaker off
    if it was making so much noise it needed to be boxed.

    Oh, those were the days. I kept my modem at L1 in a closet, and I'd hear
    the sound of the modem during the night. I never had a problem going back
    to sleep, surprisingly.



    ... What do you think of the guests?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.49
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Tue Jun 26 01:31:14 2018
    On 06-25-18 12:10, Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
    spoke to Bj”rn Felten about The 000 country phone num <=-

    MVDV> But... there was no option to not dial certain numbers at all. My POTS
    MVDV> mailer, InterMail, had no documented way to tell it to
    MVDV> never attempt to dial numbers starting with 000-. Yes, I

    It is possible Intermail had a way to do that. One could set up cost
    tables. Page 16-17 of your manual. I think that there was also a way
    to tell intermail not to call numbers with a high cost at certain times
    of the day, but I cannot find that in my manual. If so, one could set a
    very high cost for 000 and then not allow that cost to dial at any time
    during the 24 hour day.

    Perhaps someone can fill in the second step to make that work, or not --
    since not many folks are still using intermail.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:47:09, 26 Jun 2018
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Kurt Weiske on Tue Jun 26 17:38:29 2018
    Hi! Kurt,

    On 06/26/2018 03:13 PM, you wrote:

    locked perspex display box, at the residence of his excellency the
    Z3C.

    He could have just added ATL0 to the dialing string to turn the speaker
    off
    if it was making so much noise it needed to be boxed.

    I was speaking metaphorically, as if the last working modem in our zone was in a museum. In truth I don't know where Scott keeps it or even if it works.

    Oh, those were the days. I kept my modem at L1 in a closet, and I'd hear the sound of the modem during the night. I never had a problem going back to sleep, surprisingly.

    Damn! I was poking around in Radius' config yesterday but didn't take any notice. There's setups for two modems in it. Oops.

    I'm looking at the config file for BinkleyTerm now and the init string was 'ATZ!'. :) Wait for it; its Terminal app's init included 'ATL3', which probably means there was a reduced noisiness option (for the USR[shrug]).

    IAC, there's plenty of sound samples on Ewwtoob to bring on the memories.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: If it ain't broke, let me try... (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Paul Quinn on Tue Jun 26 10:20:57 2018
    I was speaking metaphorically, as if the last working modem in our zone
    was in a museum. In truth I don't know where Scott keeps it or even if
    it works.

    I took my last modem call in 2006 then discontinued its usage.

    It took close to 10 years before someone stumbled across it, and then only because the guy from 2:291/100 went yapping to his US-uplink to score good points.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Ward Dossche on Tue Jun 26 19:04:05 2018
    Hi! Ward,

    On 06/26/2018 10:20 AM, you wrote:

    I took my last modem call in 2006 then discontinued its usage.

    It was the same year for me too; xxCarol's system was the last poll-er. (I still have the modem log.) I stuck it out till 2012... February I think, when I powered-down my hardware node as I could no longer justify the electricity requirement.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: -=[ I brake for UFOs ]=- (3:640/384.125)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 26 19:23:00 2018
    On 06-26-18 01:18, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    That was about the same time that we had major renumbering operation in The Netherlands. I had to edit the translation table because there was
    a time when local numbers could only be called WITHOUT the area code
    and the areas were made bigger. More digits to the local number and shorter area codes. Also the total number of digits to dial for a non local call were fixed at ten digits. In the old system is was variable.
    7 to 9 digits.

    Yeah we had some variation, but now all numbers can be dialed with 10 digits. From memory, since the 1990s at least, it has been possible to dial local numbers with the area code. That was handy for mobile phones, because I could put the entire phone number into the phone, and it worked work anywhere in the country.

    Not much later local calls could either be made by dialing the full 10 digit number including the area code or just dialing the local number.

    Here it's provider dependent. The traditional telcos still allow local call dialing without the area code, but some VoIP providers (like mine) insist on the full 10 digits. So I would have to slightly tweak the translation tables, if I started a POTS line.


    ... Anything you say can and will be misquoted and used against you.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to David Drummond on Tue Jun 26 19:26:00 2018
    On 06-26-18 09:45, David Drummond wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I could fix that, but I'd have to do it over VoIP. :)

    Do analogue modems work OK over VOIP?

    I had this impression that the frequency range on VOIP was somewhat compressed. Would V90, V56 or even V34 work?

    It would depend on the codec used. If it's ulaw or alaw, the modems should work fine at 33.6k, because that's the same codec as used on POTS line (ulaw in the US/Canada, alaw in EU, AU, etc).


    ... A day without radiation is a day without sunshine.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to mark lewis on Tue Jun 26 00:08:18 2018
    Hello mark!

    25 Jun 18 16:52, you wrote to me:

    How about not using a translation table?

    you /have/ to use a translation table... without it, you can't connect to your NC or any other local call systems... you won't be able to connect to other systems that are LD to you but not international calls, either... this is one of the reasons why the nodelist carries the full phone number including country code...

    Your fast reading mode skips to much information, that is relevant to my
    remarks.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Paul Quinn on Tue Jun 26 13:39:38 2018
    Hello Paul!

    26 Jun 18 19:04, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    It was the same year for me too; xxCarol's system was the last poll-er.
    (I still have the modem log.) I stuck it out till 2012... February I think, when I powered-down my hardware node as I could no longer justify the electricity requirement.

    Mine still works, it tries to make an outbound call once a day during
    toll free hours (I am Dutch). Unfortunately the node I call gives a busy
    signal. I believe the sysop is floating on some contraption in the
    directions of Datteln in Germany.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Tony Langdon on Tue Jun 26 14:02:16 2018
    Hello Tony!

    26 Jun 18 08:33, you wrote to me:

    Yes, travel will be an issue. I took an Aussie number to the US for 2 weeks, using a softphone to keep in touch with home. Back then, when VoIP was relatively uncommon, the providers did say not to use it for emergency calls, and it was expected there was a landline or mobile phone around - the VoIP was more supplementary. But today, VoIP is now the only fixed line option. That is the case for me.

    The voip line I used was to my own Asterisk PBX, the PBX was also connected
    to my ISDN landline. After a security inicident of my own doing, I removed
    the ISDN from the Asterix PBX. The PBX is still in private use but only with
    those who are connected to it.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Tony Langdon on Tue Jun 26 13:57:08 2018
    Hello Tony!

    26 Jun 18 19:23, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Here it's provider dependent. The traditional telcos still allow local call dialing without the area code, but some VoIP providers (like mine) insist on the full 10 digits.

    That is because where they connect to the grid, is not within your area code.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Tue Jun 26 15:40:09 2018
    Hello Björn,

    On Tuesday June 26 2018 01:29, you wrote to me:

    I can only repeat for the umpteenth time, that there is no way to configure any Aussie POTS mailer to:

    A) Be able to call your NC properly.

    B) Call 000 from the nodelist.

    ; Dial translation table for InterMail 5.x for a node
    ; in New South Wales (Area code 02)
    ;
    DIAL
    61-2-
    61- 0-
    1 0011-1
    2 0011-2
    3 0011-3
    4 0011-4
    5 0011-5
    7 0011-7
    8 0011-8
    END

    Anyone with a sample translation table for any mailer is welcome to prove me wrong.

    See above.

    So far nobody has been able to do that for two decades, and as the
    Noble Art of Configuring a POTS Mailer is slowly descending it's
    highly unlikely that there will ever be a winner.

    But you are still missing my point. My point: ANY invalid telephone number in the nodelist is unsafe. For the simple reason that classic POTS mailers were designed under the assumption that the content of field 7 of the nodelist is either a valid dialable telephone number or the string -Unpublished-.

    Anything other than that is unsafe because in general the result is unpredictable.



    Cheers, Michiel

    --- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 26 22:18:14 2018
    MvdV> See above.

    I did. It can never dial 000.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 08:07:00 2018
    On 06-26-18 14:02, Kees van Eeten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    The voip line I used was to my own Asterisk PBX, the PBX was also connected
    to my ISDN landline. After a security inicident of my own doing, I removed
    the ISDN from the Asterix PBX. The PBX is still in private use but
    only with
    those who are connected to it.

    Yes, it's easy to open up security holes with VoIP PBXs, and there's so many probes these days. I've had to block SIP inbound on my VPN router (which is relatively open), because there was a constant stream of SIP probes and I was using softphones and ATAs as extensions at one stage.


    ... Coffee - the drink of the wired generation.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 08:10:00 2018
    On 06-26-18 13:57, Kees van Eeten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Hello Tony!

    26 Jun 18 19:23, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Here it's provider dependent. The traditional telcos still allow local call dialing without the area code, but some VoIP providers (like mine) insist on the full 10 digits.

    That is because where they connect to the grid, is not within your
    area code.

    There's also other routing anomalies, like some 1300 (national untimed calls - often used by business and government departments) and 1800 (freecall) numbers don't work. For those I have to use the mobile, which is OK, because I have unlimited calls and text on my plan.


    ... !CAUTION! Taglines may be hazardous to your disk space!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 08:19:12 2018
    Hi! Kees,

    On 06/26/2018 09:39 PM, youwrote:

    Mine still works, it tries to make an outbound call once a day during
    toll free hours (I am Dutch). Unfortunately the node I call gives a
    busy
    signal. I believe the sysop is floating on some contraption in the
    directions of Datteln in Germany.

    It may be similar to the 'house barge' that Rick Stein (chef from Cornwall, UK)
    once used on a canal tour through France. Are you looking at holiday ideas? ;)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: If it ain't broke, let me try... (3:640/384.125)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Nick Andre on Wed Jun 27 09:12:46 2018
    On 25/06/2018 20:53, Nick Andre -> David Drummond wrote:

    I could fix that, but I'd have to do it over VoIP. :)

    Do analogue modems work OK over VOIP?

    Yes, mine does. But it has to be downclocked to 9600 baud.

    I don't see that "downclocking" a 56bps modem to 9600 on VOIP as "working OK"...


    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to David Drummond on Tue Jun 26 20:37:09 2018
    On 27 Jun 18 09:12:46, David Drummond said the following to Nick Andre:

    Do analogue modems work OK over VOIP?

    Yes, mine does. But it has to be downclocked to 9600 baud.

    I don't see that "downclocking" a 56bps modem to 9600 on VOIP as "working OK"...

    Wellll... on VOIP, I seriously doubt you would get "true" 56k connections, in fact if I remember, that was nearly impossible on POTS... Likely 33.6k or 42.6 k or something to that effect.

    But for me, at 9600 that is enough to establish a dialup FTS-0001 or EMSI session, transfer mail, or allow a BBS caller to have that early-90's experience. It does not cost me very much to keep the dialup modem line.

    In Canada, there is a major telco that has a "private VOIP" network that runs over coaxial cable where they supply a telephony device allowing you to plug in whatever equipment; and I've seen modem connections go up to 28.8kbps

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Tony Langdon on Wed Jun 27 12:18:46 2018
    Hello Tony!

    27 Jun 18 08:07, you wrote to me:

    Yes, it's easy to open up security holes with VoIP PBXs,

    It was my own fault, when I upgraded an experiment with the voip on my
    cellphone from the lan to the wan, without installing a more robust
    password.

    and there's so
    many probes these days. I've had to block SIP inbound on my VPN
    router
    (which is relatively open), because there was a constant stream of SIP probes and I was using softphones and ATAs as extensions at one stage.

    I cannot block Sip, as I hase users on the WAN with dynamic adresses.
    I do use a dynamic generation of blocking rules on my firewall, but those
    take time. Probes can be heavy, sometimes whole 4 mumber blocks are scanned
    within a few secconds. Another type of probes that apparenty is automated is
    forwarding of calls to a specific caller. If that succeeds, they have found
    the hole they are looking for and they start to offer services and also
    make long call to expensive numbers abroad, to generate income there.

    My impression is that probes on SIP surpass the probes on my mailserver in
    quantity.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Paul Quinn on Wed Jun 27 12:07:42 2018
    Hello Paul!

    27 Jun 18 08:19, you wrote to me:

    It may be similar to the 'house barge' that Rick Stein (chef from Cornwall, UK) once used on a canal tour through France.

    No Henrys brother has a nice old Tugboat.

    Are you looking at holiday ideas? ;)

    No, I have already hat a holiday on a narrow boat in the Oxford canal.
    If you want a peacefull holiday, I can recommend it. Lots of locks, that
    you have to operate yourself. Plenty of exercise. ;)

    If I run out of ideas, I will make a trip to Australia and hire a mobilehome.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 20:54:08 2018
    Hi! Kees,

    On 27 Jun 18 12:07, you wrote to me:

    If I run out of ideas, I will make a trip to Australia and hire a mobilehome.

    I detest travelling for the sake of just travelling. If I want to go some place, I get there.

    Now I would recommend a hire motor-tricycle-thingy with trailer, for tent & camping gear. To my way of thinking those mobilehome vehicles are deathtraps.

    If you are serious about the notion, the local authority on touring Australia is David Drummond (3:640/305), just 'up the road from me'.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Blind people don't bungee jump; it scares the dog too much.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Wed Jun 27 13:05:43 2018
    Hello Tony,

    On Tuesday June 26 2018 19:23, you wrote to me:

    Yeah we had some variation, but now all numbers can be dialed with 10 digits. From memory, since the 1990s at least, it has been possible to dial local numbers with the area code. That was handy for mobile
    phones, because I could put the entire phone number into the phone,
    and it worked work anywhere in the country.

    Here the areas are much smaller, usually a radius of some 10 km. So for the mobile phones it is a dire necessity to be able to always dial including the area code, since most of the time you do not know in which area code you are.

    Before the advent of mobile telephonie, it was sometimes a guess when in a payphone in the middle of nowhere.

    Originally (<1980 or so) we hade a second dialtone between the area code and the subscriber's number. One had to wait for the second dial tone. When the area code was dialled from within the area, one got a busy tone.

    The first change was that the second dial tone was still there, but one did not
    have to wait for it any more. The second step was to do away with the second dial tone. The third step was to always allow dialing including the area code. The fourth step was a major renumbering operation (ca 1995) that made all numbers ten digit. Though ommiting the area code for local calls was and is still possible for the "fixed" lines.

    Also the international access code changed from 09 to 00 and servive numbers starting with 00 (operator, time, ect) were changed to numbers starting with 1 or 09.

    Not much later local calls could either be made by dialing the
    full 10 digit number including the area code or just dialing the
    local number.

    Here it's provider dependent. The traditional telcos still allow
    local call dialing without the area code, but some VoIP providers
    (like mine) insist on the full 10 digits.

    I have two "fixed" lines. One from my main ISP. It is a region dependant number
    with an area code in my region. It allows local dialling without the area code.
    The other is from a dedicated VOIP provioder. It is a so called region independant number. (quasy area code 085). It requires full 10 digit dialing, but my ATA takes care of dialling local numbers without area code.

    So I would have to slightly tweak the translation tables, if I started
    a POTS line.

    I dropped POTS over five years ago never missed it.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Paul Quinn on Wed Jun 27 13:23:16 2018
    Hello Paul!

    27 Jun 18 20:54, you wrote to me:

    I detest travelling for the sake of just travelling. If I want to go some place, I get there.

    I rather have a target as well, but sometimes the road is the target.

    Now I would recommend a hire motor-tricycle-thingy with trailer, for
    tent
    & camping gear. To my way of thinking those mobilehome vehicles are deathtraps.

    I know what you mean with the tricycle, and camping with camping gear,
    but my age is getting in the way. I do not think the mrs. would fancy
    a tricycle.

    If you are serious about the notion, the local authority on touring Australia is David Drummond (3:640/305), just 'up the road from me'.

    Well I do like his truck and the camper unit he can load on it.;)
    What is up the road for you, 100 Miles?

    Where you live, it is far to hot for me, N-Z would be better.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 13:39:11 2018

    If I run out of ideas, I will make a trip to Australia and hire a mobilehome.

    Try Alaska ... it will surprise you ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 13:50:50 2018

    I rather have a target as well, but sometimes the road is the target.

    Getting there is half the fun ...

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed Jun 27 13:42:42 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Tuesday June 26 2018 22:18, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> See above.

    I did. It can never dial 000.

    It can't? Why not? I would say any number starting with 0 will be dialled without applying any translation.

    What do you think will happen with numbers that start with 0?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 27 14:17:56 2018
    Hello Ward!

    27 Jun 18 13:39, you wrote to me:

    If I run out of ideas, I will make a trip to Australia and hire a
    mobilehome.

    Try Alaska ... it will surprise you ...

    I may surprise me. But it is hardly a place where I would like to have
    a hartstroke or a brainheamorage. If I want to travel above the polar circle
    again, I will go to Lapland a bit more dull and not as extensive. But
    coming from the Netherlands, everything more that 300 Km away is far and
    foreign. The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 27 14:42:38 2018
    I did. It can never dial 000.

    MvdV> It can't? Why not?

    My bad, I didn't notice that the table was incomplete. The 9 was missing too, so for instance RC40 cannot be dialled. And by the time this happened a lot of other Asian nodes (many of them in 9-land) were nodelisted.

    We've already agreed that a misconfigured mailer can dial whatever you like.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 18:29:41 2018
    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 20:14:06 2018
    Try Alaska ... it will surprise you ...
    I may surprise me. But it is hardly a place where I would like to have
    a hartstroke or a brainheamorage. If I want to travel above the polar circle again, I will go to Lapland a bit more dull and not as extensive. But
    coming from the Netherlands, everything more that 300 Km away is far and foreign. The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Mountains in the Netherlands? ;)

    'Tommi

    --- HotdogEd/2.13.5 (Android; Google Android; rv:1) Hotdoged/1480338873000 Hotd
    * Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)
  • From Chris Jacobs@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 27 20:11:57 2018
    Op 27-6-2018 om 18:29 schreef 2292/854:
    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

     \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
     * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)


    https://hotspotholland.nl/hoogste-toppen-nederland

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Chris Jacobs on Wed Jun 27 20:15:14 2018

    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    https://hotspotholland.nl/hoogste-toppen-nederland

    Are you Russian ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 27 19:58:16 2018
    Hello Ward!

    27 Jun 18 18:29, you wrote to me:

    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    The Tanken berg, the Holter berg, the Grebbe berg, the Vaalser berg and a few
    other hills, where the names do not spring to mind. ;)

    You will probably claim that the summit of the Vaalserberg is in Begium. ;)

    Out point of view is that we share it with Begium and Germany. By the way
    way the Vaalserberg is also the highest point in the Netherlands, so
    donot step on it to hard, we are sinking into the sea anyway.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Tommi Koivula on Wed Jun 27 20:07:14 2018
    Hello Tommi!

    27 Jun 18 20:14, you wrote to me:

    Mountains in the Netherlands? ;)

    Have not you seen them?. Well we are on equal terms, I have not seen any
    in Finland.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Chris Jacobs@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 27 20:31:25 2018
    Op 27-6-2018 om 20:15 schreef 2292/854:
    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    https://hotspotholland.nl/hoogste-toppen-nederland

    Are you Russian ?

     \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
     * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)

    No, I am Dutch

    Chris

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 22:02:38 2018
    Kees,

    Which mountains would that be ?

    The Tanken berg, the Holter berg, the Grebbe berg, the Vaalser berg and
    a few other hills, where the names do not spring to mind. ;)

    In Belgium we do not have the habit of giving dunes a name, with the single exception of the "Hogen Blekker" in Koksijde ... after all, they're just dunes.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Chris Jacobs on Wed Jun 27 22:02:49 2018
    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    https://hotspotholland.nl/hoogste-toppen-nederland

    Are you Russian ?

    No, I am Dutch

    It's usually Russians that reply by posting a URL.

    The Dutch reply by stating the obvious.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Jun 27 22:01:14 2018
    Hello Kees,

    On Wednesday June 27 2018 19:58, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    The Tanken berg, the Holter berg, the Grebbe berg, the Vaalser berg
    and a few other hills, where the names do not spring to mind. ;)

    Driebergen.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Chris Jacobs@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 27 23:04:47 2018
    Op 27-6-2018 om 22:02 schreef 2292/854:
    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    https://hotspotholland.nl/hoogste-toppen-nederland

    Are you Russian ?

    No, I am Dutch

    It's usually Russians that reply by posting a URL.

    The Dutch reply by stating the obvious.

     \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
     * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)

    I can do both.
    You obviously did not update your homepage lately.
    And here is the url:
    http://users.skynet.be/sky35373/

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jun 27 23:01:04 2018
    Hello Ward!

    27 Jun 18 22:02, you wrote to me:

    Which mountains would that be ?

    The Tanken berg, the Holter berg, the Grebbe berg, the Vaalser berg and
    a few other hills, where the names do not spring to mind. ;)

    In Belgium we do not have the habit of giving dunes a name, with the single exception of the "Hogen Blekker" in Koksijde ... after all, they're just dunes.

    I am not aware of names for any of the dunes along our coast either, but
    some of the hills I mentioned, are far from the sea and are formed by
    glaciers in the last ice age, so you cannot call them dunes.

    It is not my fault, such monuments of a far past are not found in Belgium.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Chris Jacobs on Thu Jun 28 00:41:51 2018
    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
     * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org
    (2:292/854)

    I can do both.

    Probably ... can you also quote properly or do all of your messages look like garbage?

    You obviously did not update your homepage lately.

    You have no clue what my homepage is ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 00:42:18 2018
    Kees,

    It is not my fault, such monuments of a far past are not found in
    Belgium.

    Monuments of a far past not found in Belgium ? Hmmm ...

    Perhaps you should Google "Iguanodon bernissartensis" and define what "a far past" might mean ... 8-)

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 08:18:03 2018
    Hi! Kees,

    On 06/27/2018 09:23 PM, you wrote:

    I know what you mean with the tricycle, and camping with camping gear,
    but my age is getting in the way. I do not think the mrs. would fancy
    a tricycle.

    :) Fussy lady.

    If you are serious about the notion, the local authority on touring
    Australia is David Drummond (3:640/305), just 'up the road from me'.

    Well I do like his truck and the camper unit he can load on it.;)
    What is up the road for you, 100 Miles?

    Within 60 I think, if you want to talk the old lingo. We're fully metric, and have been for quite a very long time. Under 100 kilometers.

    Where you live, it is far to hot for me, N-Z would be better.

    It's cold for me this winter. Some days we're not getting over the 20C mark, and it's horrible. Although, you would laugh at the clothing we wear/don't wear.

    Yes, I agree about NZ. Again, the local expert is David D. He's a native kiwi
    who we allow to live amongst us in OZ.

    BTW, the Aussie dollar is worth about 64 Euro cents. The Aussie dollar buys about NZ$1.08, so just imagine the bargain in Euros for a trip to NZ. The most
    expensive bit is getting down hereabouts, and back home.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Users: Keep them dry and don't feed them after midnight. (3:640/384.125)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555.1 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu Jun 28 00:51:16 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Wednesday June 27 2018 14:42, you wrote to me:

    I did. It can never dial 000.

    MvdV>> It can't? Why not?

    My bad, I didn't notice that the table was incomplete. The 9 was
    missing too, so for instance RC40 cannot be dialled. And by the time
    this happened a lot of other Asian nodes (many of them in 9-land) were nodelisted.

    Yes, the 9 is missing. I could easely correct that. It makes no difference. RC40 can not be called anyway, the number does not answer. As for "complete", the challenge was to present a configuration that could do two thing:

    1) Have an Ausie POTS node call his/her NC.
    2) Have an Aussie node call 000 from he nodelist.

    Nothing abbout "complete" in the sense that it should be able dial all POTS nodes in the nodelist.

    I leave it to the readers of this echo to judge if I met the challenge.

    We've already agreed that a misconfigured mailer can dial whatever
    you like.

    Malcom's concerns were about newby nodes accidentally misconfigured.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/5555.1)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 28 08:45:27 2018
    On 27/06/2018 18:29, Ward Dossche -> Kees van Eeten wrote:
    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    The ones in the Netherlands?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Paul Quinn on Thu Jun 28 08:50:08 2018
    On 27/06/2018 20:54, Paul Quinn -> Kees van Eeten wrote:

    If I run out of ideas, I will make a trip to Australia and hire a
    mobilehome.

    I detest travelling for the sake of just travelling. If I want to go
    some place, I get there.

    Now I would recommend a hire motor-tricycle-thingy with trailer, for
    tent & camping gear. To my way of thinking those mobilehome vehicles are deathtraps.

    If you are serious about the notion, the local authority on touring Australia is David Drummond (3:640/305), just 'up the road from me'.

    I'm an "authority"???

    Most of my touring has been on a two wheeled motorcycle with tent strapped on the back. It's only just recently that I've employed 4 wheels and a slide on camper (which is no more a death trap than many other vehicles out there). I am
    still collecting "expertise and experience".


    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 08:54:52 2018
    On 27/06/2018 21:23, Kees van Eeten -> Paul Quinn wrote:

    If you are serious about the notion, the local authority on touring
    Australia is David Drummond (3:640/305), just 'up the road from me'.

    Well I do like his truck and the camper unit he can load on it.;)

    I like it too - but fuel economy can be an issue when travelling into prevailing wind.

    What is up the road for you, 100 Miles?

    About 120km actually.

    Where you live, it is far to hot for me, N-Z would be better.

    Choose your season. July/August is a good time to tour this part of the world -
    not too much rain happening and temps rarely over 25C (well, except for Darwin,
    it still gets 30 or so there).

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 28 08:57:49 2018
    On 27/06/2018 21:42, 2:280/5555 wrote:

    MvdV>>> See above.

    I did. It can never dial 000.

    MvdV> It can't? Why not? I would say any number starting with 0 will be
    MvdV> dialled without applying any translation.

    MvdV> What do you think will happen with numbers that start with 0?

    When 000 numbers were introduced into the nodelist that model was not accepted here in Z3 (by Malcolm if I recall correctly). All 000 number in the nodelist were "overseas". All diallers had to put 0011 on the front of such phone numbers to get out. 0011 000 produces nothing when dialled here.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 28 09:16:35 2018
    On 27/06/2018 22:02, Ward Dossche -> Kees van Eeten wrote:

    The Tanken berg, the Holter berg, the Grebbe berg, the Vaalser berg and
    a few other hills, where the names do not spring to mind. ;)

    In Belgium we do not have the habit of giving dunes a name, with the single exception of the "Hogen Blekker" in Koksijde ... after all,
    they're just dunes.

    You haven't seen "Big Red", near Birdsville in western Queensland, Australia.

    <snip>
    Big Red
    Birdsville, Diamantina Area

    Standing at 40 metres in height, and situated just 35km from Birdsville; this famous sand dune provides a challenge for any four wheel drive enthusiast. The first of 1,140 parallel dunes in the Simpson Desert, the spectacular sunsets from the top of Big Red are an experience not to be missed.
    </snip>

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Tommi Koivula on Thu Jun 28 09:18:30 2018
    On 28/06/2018 03:14, Tommi Koivula -> Kees van Eeten wrote:
    again, I will go to Lapland a bit more dull and not as extensive. But
    coming from the Netherlands, everything more that 300 Km away is far and
    foreign. The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Mountains in the Netherlands? ;)

    There is one near Michiel's home - it is 3 metres in height.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to David Drummond on Thu Jun 28 09:33:07 2018
    Hi! David,

    On 06/28/2018 08:50 AM, I wrote:

    Most of my touring has been on a two wheeled motorcycle with tent
    strapped on the back. It's only just recently that I've employed 4
    wheels and a slide on camper (which is no more a death trap than many other vehicles out there). I am still collecting "expertise and experience".

    That's what I said. Just not in so many words. 8-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Tighten 'til it cracks, then back off 1/2 a turn. (3:640/384.125)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 13:21:00 2018
    On 06-27-18 12:18, Kees van Eeten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I cannot block Sip, as I hase users on the WAN with dynamic adresses.
    I do use a dynamic generation of blocking rules on my firewall, but those

    I have no external SIP users, so blocking SIP was the obvious thing to do.

    take time. Probes can be heavy, sometimes whole 4 mumber blocks are scanned
    within a few secconds. Another type of probes that apparenty is automated is

    Yes, when I had SIP open, the probes were constant, another reason to just block them at the firewall.

    forwarding of calls to a specific caller. If that succeeds, they have found
    the hole they are looking for and they start to offer services and
    also
    make long call to expensive numbers abroad, to generate income there.

    My impression is that probes on SIP surpass the probes on my
    mailserver in
    quantity.

    I'd believe that, from what I've seen eniffing incoming probes.


    ... She sells unix shells by the sea shore
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 28 13:34:00 2018
    On 06-27-18 13:05, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Here the areas are much smaller, usually a radius of some 10 km. So for the mobile phones it is a dire necessity to be able to always dial including the area code, since most of the time you do not know in
    which area code you are.

    Area codes are now one or more entire states:

    02 - NSW and ACT
    03 - Victoria and Tasmania
    04 - all mobiles
    07 - Queensland
    08 - WA, NT, SA.

    Prior to the 1990s renumbering, area codes probably had a 30-100km radius in the eastern states, larger in sparsely populated areas.

    Before the advent of mobile telephonie, it was sometimes a guess when
    in a payphone in the middle of nowhere.

    Originally (<1980 or so) we hade a second dialtone between the area
    code and the subscriber's number. One had to wait for the second dial tone. When the area code was dialled from within the area, one got a
    busy tone.

    That was different. We could always dial the whole number, but there were still some manual exchanges back in the 1980s, which often had a long area code, then you'd have to talk to the operator on the far end to get put through to the final number. I think they were all converted to automatic by the end of the 1980s, as newer, more compact digital exchanges became available.

    The first change was that the second dial tone was still there, but one did not have to wait for it any more. The second step was to do away
    with the second dial tone. The third step was to always allow dialing including the area code. The fourth step was a major renumbering operation (ca 1995) that made all numbers ten digit. Though ommiting
    the area code for local calls was and is still possible for the "fixed" lines.

    We only had two of those stages from memory here. The big renumber in Australia was also around 1995. In many rural areas, the old area code (minus the 0) became part of the local number, and the statewide area code (in our case, 03) was added in front, while in Melbourne, where the area code was already 03, the numbers were 1 digit short, and a "9" was inserted between the area code and the local number to bring them up to the 10 digit format. Similar happened in other regional and capital city areas, with the respective area codes. The digit added in other capital cities did vary (I think Brisbane added a 3).

    Also the international access code changed from 09 to 00 and servive numbers starting with 00 (operator, time, ect) were changed to numbers starting with 1 or 09.

    The service and information numbers were all organised a bit better. International dialing was always 0011, from what I can recall.

    I have two "fixed" lines. One from my main ISP. It is a region
    dependant number with an area code in my region. It allows local
    dialling without the area code. The other is from a dedicated VOIP provioder. It is a so called region independant number. (quasy area
    code 085). It requires full 10 digit dialing, but my ATA takes care of dialling local numbers without area code.

    My VoIP has a region dependent number with the same area code as other numbers here (03), but requires the area code on outbound calls to local numbers.

    So I would have to slightly tweak the translation tables, if I started
    a POTS line.

    I dropped POTS over five years ago never missed it.

    I haven't setup POTS since coming back to BBSing.



    ... "Ignore Previous Cookie" - Message in fortune cookie.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Tony Langdon on Thu Jun 28 16:11:45 2018
    On 28/06/2018 13:21, Tony Langdon -> Kees van Eeten wrote:

    Yes, when I had SIP open, the probes were constant, another reason to just block them at the firewall.

    How does your VOIP work if you have the SIP port blocked?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 28 09:54:44 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Chris Jacobs on Wednesday June 27 2018 at 22:02:

    It's usually Russians that reply by posting a URL.

    The Dutch reply by stating the obvious.

    And the Belgians claim it was invented in Belgium ;-)

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to David Drummond on Thu Jun 28 11:44:26 2018

    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    The ones in the Netherlands?

    When you stand on a chair, you can see the 4 corners of the country.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 28 15:02:36 2018
    Hello Ward!

    28 Jun 18 00:42, you wrote to me:

    It is not my fault, such monuments of a far past are not found in
    Belgium.

    Monuments of a far past not found in Belgium ? Hmmm ...

    Perhaps you should Google "Iguanodon bernissartensis" and define what "a far past" might mean ... 8-)

    Have not your Mormon friends explained to to you, that they have not existed.

    Hurray, I found a new subject for a pissing contest. ;)

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Paul Quinn on Thu Jun 28 12:09:42 2018
    Hello Paul!

    28 Jun 18 08:18, you wrote to me:

    I know what you mean with the tricycle, and camping with camping
    gear,
    but my age is getting in the way. I do not think the mrs. would
    fancy
    a tricycle.

    :) Fussy lady.

    That is alright, she has been fussing over me for more than 45 years.

    Well I do like his truck and the camper unit he can load on it.;)
    What is up the road for you, 100 Miles?

    Within 60 I think, if you want to talk the old lingo. We're fully metric, and have been for quite a very long time. Under 100 kilometers.

    Sorry, I always associate non ISO measurements with English. But even in
    GB you get Liters at the fuelstation. Well gallons was confusing anyway,
    ere they 3.75 L or 4.05 L. The Brits never added the Imperial prefix.

    Where you live, it is far to hot for me, N-Z would be better.

    It's cold for me this winter. Some days we're not getting over the 20C mark, and it's horrible. Although, you would laugh at the clothing we wear/don't wear.

    We are in for a hot weekend, temperatures may rise to 28C.

    Yes, I agree about NZ. Again, the local expert is David D. He's a
    native
    kiwi who we allow to live amongst us in OZ.

    Well apparently he does not fancy NZ, he has been in OZ for so long now. ;)

    BTW, the Aussie dollar is worth about 64 Euro cents. The Aussie
    dollar
    buys about NZ$1.08, so just imagine the bargain in Euros for a trip to NZ. The most expensive bit is getting down hereabouts, and back home.

    It all depend on the prices at your end. If I go to Indonesia, I get
    millions of rupia's for my Euro's but you als have to pay millions.

    In my youth the official exchange rate was 3 Rupia for a Guilder. The end
    value of the Guilder was about 2.2 Fl for a Euro.

    But as you say, cost wise, it may be lucrative for us to spend a holiday
    in OZ or NZ if you donot count the fare.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to David Drummond on Thu Jun 28 15:03:32 2018
    Hello David!

    28 Jun 18 08:54, you wrote to me:

    Well I do like his truck and the camper unit he can load on it.;)

    I like it too - but fuel economy can be an issue when travelling into prevailing wind.

    I know a guy who built his slide on camper himself, it was very
    nice and probaly very heavy as well. My camper is a fully integrated type.
    as yours not very good on fuel economy when travelling into the wind.

    What is up the road for you, 100 Miles?

    About 120km actually.

    Where you live, it is far to hot for me, N-Z would be better.

    Choose your season. July/August is a good time to tour this part of the world - not too much rain happening and temps rarely over 25C (well, except for Darwin, it still gets 30 or so there).

    That is better than our summers. I have been in the tropics long enough not
    to long for them anymore. ;)

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 28 15:08:36 2018
    Hello Ward!

    28 Jun 18 11:44, you wrote to David Drummond:

    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.
    Which mountains would that be ?
    The ones in the Netherlands?

    When you stand on a chair, you can see the 4 corners of the country.

    When we stand on a chair, we can see the French border. ;)

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to David Drummond on Thu Jun 28 15:22:49 2018
    Hello David,

    On Thursday June 28 2018 08:57, you wrote to me:

    When 000 numbers were introduced into the nodelist that model was not accepted here in Z3 (by Malcolm if I recall correctly).

    Good for Malcolm.

    Malcolm also introduced a nodelist with IONs listed as -Unpublished- without Pvt for Z3 internal use. Over a decade before Z1 and Z2 followed...

    Malcolm was a wise man.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Thu Jun 28 15:55:56 2018
    Hello Tony,

    On Thursday June 28 2018 13:34, you wrote to me:

    That was different. We could always dial the whole number, but there
    were still some manual exchanges back in the 1980s, which often had a
    long area code, then you'd have to talk to the operator on the far end
    to get put through to the final number. I think they were all
    converted to automatic by the end of the 1980s, as newer, more compact digital exchanges became available.

    The Netherlands was the second country in the world to complete automatic telephony in 1962. Switzerland was first.

    We only had two of those stages from memory here. The big renumber in Australia was also around 1995. In many rural areas, the old area
    code (minus the 0) became part of the local number, and the statewide
    area code (in our case, 03) was added in front, while in Melbourne,
    where the area code was already 03, the numbers were 1 digit short,
    and a "9" was inserted between the area code and the local number to
    bring them up to the 10 digit format.

    I have gone to three renumbering operations since I came into my present house in 1985. First I had a four digit local number. (8411). When they ran out of numbers a couple of years later, all old numbers were prefixed with a '1' and new numbers were issued in the 2xxxx range. So my number became 18411. The five
    digit (including the leading zero) area code remained the same: 03438. So by then I already had 10 digits. But there were still areas where the total number of digits was nine, or even eight.

    The main objective of the 1995 big renumber operation was to get more numbers. The 06 block was reserved for mobile. Five digit (including 0) areas were merged into four digit areas. Usually by dropping the last digit and adding that to the subscriber number. But not always, as some digits like '1', '8' and
    '9' were reserved for special services.

    So my 10 digit number changed from 03438-18411 to 0343-518411. It has not changed since then and there are no indications that it will change any time soon. The number of fixed lines is no longer rising, so no need for extra numbers in that area.

    Hovever, after almost 25 years, the 06 block for mobile numbers seems to be running out. I wonder how they are going to solve that. Probably by reassiging something in the sparsely used 09 block...

    Also the international access code changed from 09 to 00 and
    servive numbers starting with 00 (operator, time, ect) were
    changed to numbers starting with 1 or 09.

    The service and information numbers were all organised a bit better. International dialing was always 0011, from what I can recall.

    Hmm, I wonder why they hav not followed international practise and made 00 the international access code. It seems so logical. 0 to get out of the village. 00
    to get out of the country. And in future 000 to get off the planet...

    I have two "fixed" lines. One from my main ISP. It is a region
    dependant number with an area code in my region. It allows local
    dialling without the area code. The other is from a dedicated
    VOIP provioder. It is a so called region independant number.
    (quasy area code 085). It requires full 10 digit dialing, but my
    ATA takes care of dialling local numbers without area code.

    My VoIP has a region dependent number with the same area code as other numbers here (03), but requires the area code on outbound calls to
    local numbers.

    Your ATA has no provisons for "translation tables"?

    Here region independant numbers are increasing in popularity. Especially for companies and institutions that operate nationaly. For end users that move around a lot is also has advantages. No need tio change the number when moving to another area.

    So I would have to slightly tweak the translation tables, if I
    started a POTS line.

    I dropped POTS over five years ago never missed it.

    I haven't setup POTS since coming back to BBSing.

    Twenty years ago I also had a fax. I did not replace it when it broke. Didn't miss it.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 17:00:30 2018
    Kees,

    Hurray, I found a new subject for a pissing contest. ;)

    I would rather discuss the achievements of the Netherlands' football team during the current world championships football in Russia ... as there is nothing to discuss about the Germans ... 8-)

    \%/@rd

    {2 birds, 1 stone}

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 17:01:35 2018
    Kees,

    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.
    Which mountains would that be ?
    The ones in the Netherlands?

    When you stand on a chair, you can see the 4 corners of the country.

    When we stand on a chair, we can see the French border. ;)

    What? No mountains in between? .=)

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to All on Thu Jun 28 17:12:51 2018
    Malcolm also introduced a nodelist with IONs listed as -Unpublished- without Pvt for Z3 internal use. Over a decade before Z1 and Z2
    followed...

    Malcolm was a wise man.

    Certain things are easier when administering a zone which would be a medium-sized region here...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 28 18:21:06 2018
    Hello Ward!

    28 Jun 18 17:00, you wrote to me:

    Hurray, I found a new subject for a pissing contest. ;)

    I would rather discuss the achievements of the Netherlands' football team during the current world championships football in Russia ... as there is nothing to discuss about the Germans ... 8-)

    Football, is that the game where 22 grownup men run after a ball and get
    paid millions for doing so.?

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 28 18:51:04 2018
    Hello Ward!

    28 Jun 18 17:01, you wrote to me:

    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.
    Which mountains would that be ?
    The ones in the Netherlands?

    When you stand on a chair, you can see the 4 corners of the country.

    Ah. you believe the world is flat as well. ;)

    When we stand on a chair, we can see the French border. ;)

    What? No mountains in between? .=)

    No, only highrises in Rotterdam, the mountains are to the east, so I cannot
    see Germany. ;)

    Actually when I stand on a chair, my nose is still below sea level.
    The sight reduction tables tell me there is no horizon.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Dale Shipp on Thu Jun 28 10:34:52 2018

    On 2018 Jun 26 01:31:14, you wrote to Michiel Van Der Vlist:

    MVDV>> But... there was no option to not dial certain numbers at all. My
    MVDV>> POTS mailer, InterMail, had no documented way to tell it to never
    MVDV>> attempt to dial numbers starting with 000-. Yes, I

    It is possible Intermail had a way to do that. One could set up cost tables. Page 16-17 of your manual. I think that there was also a way
    to tell intermail not to call numbers with a high cost at certain
    times of the day, but I cannot find that in my manual. If so, one
    could set a very high cost for 000 and then not allow that cost to
    dial at any time during the 24 hour day.

    frontdoor and intermail stem from the same code... FD has a setting, FDSETUP->Mailer->minimum undialable cost, that plays in this... intermail should have the same or a similar setting... then there's also the cost that can be specified when defining a mail event... you can set a minimum and a maximum cost for the event and only those systems within that range will be qualified... the cost set up is certainly the way to prevent intermail from dialing systems it cannot connect with...

    FD also has a section, FDSETUP->Manager->Modem, where you can define a string to match and a string to send or an action to perform... so you might define a string, ITN:, and set the action to "Do not dial"... this because ITN with a colon means there's a different port so we have to handle that system differently... by setting "Do not dial" systems with (eg) ITN:1234 will not be dialed... on the other hand, a system with ITN can be set to "Stop scanning, proceed with dial" so they can be dialed... i'm sure that intermail has the modem manager like FD does but i don't think it is as robust as FD's... the main thing the modem manager was used for was to define AT command strings for different connections...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I remember when Saturns were ROCKETS, not cars!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 10:48:50 2018

    On 2018 Jun 26 00:08:18, you wrote to me:

    How about not using a translation table?

    you /have/ to use a translation table... without it, you can't
    connect to your NC or any other local call systems... you won't be
    able to connect to other systems that are LD to you but not
    international calls, either... this is one of the reasons why the
    nodelist carries the full phone number including country code...

    Your fast reading mode skips to much information, that is relevant to
    my remarks.

    i read all of what you wrote... the above line that i quoted was all that i needed... a translation table *has* to be used or you can't even dial local numbers... if you can't dial a local number, you can't connect to your NC to request a node number... there is just no way around a translation table...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... You don't need to be a cannibal to be fed up with people.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 10:51:50 2018

    On 2018 Jun 26 13:57:08, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    Here it's provider dependent. The traditional telcos still allow
    local call dialing without the area code, but some VoIP providers
    (like mine) insist on the full 10 digits.

    That is because where they connect to the grid, is not within your
    area code.

    that may be... here in the US, the telcos switched to requiring the full 10 digits because they were running out of numbers in the exchanges so they had to
    start using the area code to differentiate between exchanges that are now being
    duplicated across area codes... kinda like we used to have with nets being duplicated across zones...

    anyway, at one time we were getting calls for the Sugar Mountain Police and whatever the place was that managed our timeshare we had at Sugar Mountain... it was quite funny, really... the problem was that our exchange and the one at Sugar Mountain were the same and the folks dialing had to be told to use the area code... this got worse and worse as more and more cell phones were being used... especially if someone were in the 919 area code and only dialed the last seven digits... they would get connected to us because the system would default to the area code the call originated in... when everyone finally switched to using the area code, those annoyance calls dropped way off...

    i've always used the full ten digits on my cell phones because they could tell when they had to drop the area code and when they didn't... this was important when out on the road traveling and you need to call a number you call commonly but now you're in a different area code while making the call... now it doesn't
    matter and you have to use the area code for everything...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Whatsoever was the father of a disease, an ill diet was the mother.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 28 11:13:08 2018

    On 2018 Jun 26 15:40:08, you wrote to Björn Felten:

    A) Be able to call your NC properly.

    B) Call 000 from the nodelist.

    ; Dial translation table for InterMail 5.x for a node
    ; in New South Wales (Area code 02)
    ;
    DIAL
    61-2-
    61- 0-
    1 0011-1
    2 0011-2
    3 0011-3
    4 0011-4
    5 0011-5
    7 0011-7
    8 0011-8
    END

    that a really really really bad translation table...

    why are 0, 6, and 9 left out?

    Anyone with a sample translation table for any mailer is welcome to
    prove me wrong.

    See above.

    that's just the table... how about providing a few numbers and show how their flow through the table could result in 000 so others can see what actually happens and how?

    eg: 61-2-9727-7775
    1st line strips 61-2 so the number is 9727-7775.
    valid local number?
    but we continue... 4th line changes 2 to 0011-2 so the number is 970011-27-7775.
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?
    but we continue... 7th line changes 5 to 0011-5 so the number is 970011-27-7770011-5
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?
    but we continue... 8th line changes 7 to 0011-7 so the number is 90011-70011-20011-7-0011-70011-70011-70011-5
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?

    AFAICS, the only one that is valid is the first part that strips 61-2- off the number... the rest of the translations are all invalid which tells even more about the table being bad... with that table, the NC cannot be called and neither can any other local or domestic numbers... remember, dial translation is a single pass through the table...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... You shall know the truth, and it shall make you freak.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu Jun 28 12:57:34 2018

    On 2018 Jun 27 14:42:38, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    I did. It can never dial 000.

    MvdV>> It can't? Why not?

    My bad, I didn't notice that the table was incomplete.

    not just incomplete but bad, too...

    The 9 was missing too,

    and the 6...

    so for instance RC40 cannot be dialled. And by the time this happened
    a lot of other Asian nodes (many of them in 9-land) were nodelisted.

    We've already agreed that a misconfigured mailer can dial whatever you like.

    exactly... i don't understand why everyone seems to drop the "properly configured" aspect when this discussion comes up...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Waiter, we'll try what that couple under the table had.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 28 13:41:56 2018

    On 2018 Jun 28 00:51:16, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

    As for "complete", the challenge was to present a configuration that
    could do two thing:

    1) Have an Ausie POTS node call his/her NC.
    2) Have an Aussie node call 000 from he nodelist.

    you failed the challenge... 000- *has* to be stripped leaving the rest which should be the IP or host name... if ANY mailer doesn't strip the leading 000- then they cannot dial any internet numbers...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Bagel: a doughnut with rigor mortis.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to David Drummond on Thu Jun 28 13:07:24 2018

    On 2018 Jun 28 08:57:48, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    When 000 numbers were introduced into the nodelist that model was not accepted here in Z3 (by Malcolm if I recall correctly). All 000 number
    in the nodelist were "overseas". All diallers had to put 0011 on the
    front of such phone numbers to get out. 0011 000 produces nothing when dialled here.

    exactly!

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Microwave ovens: consolation prize in our struggle to understand physics. ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Tony Langdon on Thu Jun 28 13:19:28 2018

    On 2018 Jun 28 13:34:00, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Here the areas are much smaller, usually a radius of some 10 km. So
    for the mobile phones it is a dire necessity to be able to always
    dial including the area code, since most of the time you do not know
    in which area code you are.

    Area codes are now one or more entire states:

    02 - NSW and ACT
    03 - Victoria and Tasmania
    04 - all mobiles
    07 - Queensland
    08 - WA, NT, SA.

    to dial your area codes, do you have to dial the 0, too?

    international - 61-2-9727-7775
    domestic - 02-9727-7775
    local - 9727-7775

    if so, that shows that michael's dial translation was even more broken than first seen...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... It took me years to write, won't you take a look?
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kees van Eeten on Thu Jun 28 13:39:06 2018

    On 2018 Jun 28 12:09:42, you wrote to Paul Quinn:

    I know what you mean with the tricycle, and camping with camping
    gear, but my age is getting in the way. I do not think the mrs.
    would fancy a tricycle.

    :) Fussy lady.

    That is alright, she has been fussing over me for more than 45 years.

    over you or AT you??? :lol:

    generally we say if someone is fussing over you they are taking care of you... if they are fussing at you, that could be ""war"" ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Nature is weird. It puts most of the vitamins in foods we don't like!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Fri Jun 29 07:53:42 2018
    On 28/06/2018 11:44, Ward Dossche -> David Drummond wrote:

    The hills in Lappland are far higher the our mountains.

    Which mountains would that be ?

    The ones in the Netherlands?

    When you stand on a chair, you can see the 4 corners of the country.

    They have tall chairs there?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 29 08:04:33 2018
    On 28/06/2018 23:22, Michiel van der Vlist -> David Drummond wrote:

    When 000 numbers were introduced into the nodelist that model was not
    accepted here in Z3 (by Malcolm if I recall correctly).

    MvdV> Good for Malcolm.

    MvdV> Malcolm also introduced a nodelist with IONs listed as -Unpublished-
    MvdV> without Pvt for Z3 internal use. Over a decade before Z1 and Z2 followed...

    MvdV> Malcolm was a wise man.

    I meant that Malcolm "banned" the use of 000 numbers in Z3. Sorry if I gave the
    impression that he introduced them.

    I recall his making the Pvt redundant. I ran a fully fledged, publicly accessible ION in those days.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555.1 to David Drummond on Fri Jun 29 00:26:12 2018
    Hello David,

    On Friday June 29 2018 08:04, you wrote to me:

    When 000 numbers were introduced into the nodelist that model
    was not accepted here in Z3 (by Malcolm if I recall correctly).

    MvdV>> Good for Malcolm.

    ... To not accept 000 numbers in Z3.

    MvdV>> Malcolm also introduced a nodelist with IONs listed as
    MvdV>> -Unpublished- without Pvt for Z3 internal use. Over a decade
    MvdV>> before Z1 and Z2 followed...

    MvdV>> Malcolm was a wise man.

    I meant that Malcolm "banned" the use of 000 numbers in Z3. Sorry if I gave the impression that he introduced them.

    No need to apologize. I perfectly understood Malcom banned 000 numbers in Z3.

    I recall his making the Pvt redundant.

    For nodes running a binkp server...

    I ran a fully fledged, publicly accessible ION in those days.

    I remember that...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/5555.1)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to David Drummond on Thu Jun 28 20:07:00 2018
    On 06-28-18 16:11, David Drummond wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    On 28/06/2018 13:21, Tony Langdon -> Kees van Eeten wrote:

    Yes, when I had SIP open, the probes were constant, another reason to just block them at the firewall.

    How does your VOIP work if you have the SIP port blocked?

    Different feed. I actually have 4 networks running here on the one wire.

    The primary Internet connection carries IPv6, and runs NAT to the LAN. The router that handles the main connection is also the IP PBX. No SIP filtering here.

    The other two networks are:

    A /28 brought in by VPN from another network. This is how I get public IPv4 addresses for both BBSs. This network is where the SIP filtering is implemented in iptables on the VPN router.

    A /24 which is an AMPRnet feed (44.x.x.x ham radio IPs). This uses an IPIP tunnel mesh to probide optimal routing to other 44.x nodes over the Internet. This also has its own filtering, though it's a bit more complex, because there's a lot of weird and annoying probes on this net via the main gateway in the US.


    ... Difference between a lawyer and a skunk? Nobody wants to hit a skunk!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 29 07:27:00 2018
    On 06-28-18 15:55, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    The Netherlands was the second country in the world to complete
    automatic telephony in 1962. Switzerland was first.

    Interesting. I think it took until the 90s for the last manual exchanges to close down in Australia, but there were uncommon long before then.

    I have gone to three renumbering operations since I came into my
    present house in 1985. First I had a four digit local number. (8411). When they ran out of numbers a couple of years later, all old numbers were prefixed with a '1' and new numbers were issued in the 2xxxx
    range. So my number became 18411. The five digit (including the leading zero) area code remained the same: 03438. So by then I already had 10 digits. But there were still areas where the total number of digits
    was nine, or even eight.

    Only had the big renumber in the 1990s. Previous renumberings were long before I was born (or we had a phone - didn't bother getting a phone installed until 1976).

    The main objective of the 1995 big renumber operation was to get more numbers. The 06 block was reserved for mobile. Five digit (including 0) areas were merged into four digit areas. Usually by dropping the last digit and adding that to the subscriber number. But not always, as some digits like '1', '8' and '9' were reserved for special services.

    Same reason for the big 1990s renumber here. Many rural areas had their old area code changed and the new one added. For example, my parents (they've long since moved) had the number (054) 272 888, and that became (03) 5427 2888. In Melbourne, I had (03) 379 0193 at one stage. That number became (03) 9379
    193.

    Hovever, after almost 25 years, the 06 block for mobile numbers seems
    to be running out. I wonder how they are going to solve that. Probably
    by reassiging something in the sparsely used 09 block...

    I'm not sure how our (04) block is going with mobiles, but there is plenty of room to expand, and there are unused ranges here.

    Also the international access code changed from 09 to 00 and
    servive numbers starting with 00 (operator, time, ect) were
    changed to numbers starting with 1 or 09.

    A lot of special services start with 1 here too, with 13 being untimed national calls, and 1800 being freecall. 19 is for premium services - where the charges are much higher than standard.

    Hmm, I wonder why they hav not followed international practise and made 00 the international access code. It seems so logical. 0 to get out of the village. 00 to get out of the country. And in future 000 to get off the planet...

    Dunno, but 000 will get you a fire truck, police car or ambulance. :)

    Your ATA has no provisons for "translation tables"?

    Haven't looked into that, though in the past, I've found many device tables to be very limited, compared to what something like Asterisk can do (or even the translation tables in nodelist compilers).

    Here region independant numbers are increasing in popularity.
    Especially for companies and institutions that operate nationaly. For
    end users that move around a lot is also has advantages. No need tio change the number when moving to another area.

    I'm not aware of region independent numbers here in the way you're describing. Companies with national reach tend to use 13 series numbers, which are forwarded to their actual numbers, which can be done on a region by region basis, to reach the right branch office, if needed (many companies have a national call centre anyway).

    So I would have to slightly tweak the translation tables, if I
    started a POTS line.

    I dropped POTS over five years ago never missed it.

    I haven't setup POTS since coming back to BBSing.

    Twenty years ago I also had a fax. I did not replace it when it broke. Didn't miss it.

    I had to maintain some form of fax capability until 8 years ago (last thing I recall faxing was papers for selling the house in Melbourne). I used a fax to email service for inbound and had an old fax machine that I made outbound calls on.


    ... New oxymoron: final beta
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Fri Jun 29 07:28:00 2018
    On 06-28-18 13:19, mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    to dial your area codes, do you have to dial the 0, too?

    international - 61-2-9727-7775
    domestic - 02-9727-7775
    local - 9727-7775

    Yes, that's correct.

    if so, that shows that michael's dial translation was even more broken than first seen...

    It looked too simple. :)


    ... What did the cannibal call two hunters in a jeep? Meals on wheels!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Fri Jun 29 22:23:10 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Thursday June 28 2018 12:57, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:


    We've already agreed that a misconfigured mailer can dial
    whatever you like.

    exactly... i don't understand why everyone seems to drop the "properly configured" aspect when this discussion comes up...

    Malcolm's concernes were about an accidental misconfiguration by a newby.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Fri Jun 29 22:27:15 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Thursday June 28 2018 11:13, you wrote to me:

    A) Be able to call your NC properly.

    B) Call 000 from the nodelist.

    ; Dial translation table for InterMail 5.x for a node
    ; in New South Wales (Area code 02)
    ;
    DIAL
    61-2-
    61- 0-
    1 0011-1
    2 0011-2
    3 0011-3
    4 0011-4
    5 0011-5
    7 0011-7
    8 0011-8
    END

    that a really really really bad translation table...

    Thank you.

    why are 0, 6, and 9 left out?

    They are not needed for the demo.

    that's just the table... how about providing a few numbers and

    Bjorn asked for the table. Not for an explanation of how these tables work.

    eg: 61-2-9727-7775
    1st line strips 61-2 so the number is 9727-7775.
    valid local number?

    It is Scott Littles' number, so it should be...

    but we continue...

    No, we don't because the translation process terminates at the first match.

    4th line changes 2 to 0011-2 so the number is
    970011-27-7775.
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?

    No of course not. Even if it continues, it does not work like that. The 2 in the first line only compares against the first digit in the number. No match.

    [..]

    AFAICS, the only one that is valid is the first part that strips 61-2-
    off the number... the rest of the translations are all invalid which
    tells even more about the table being bad...

    You either have no idea how the tables in InterMail work or you are just trolling again. Since you are very familiar with FrontDoor and InterMail is a fork of FD, I have great difficulty accepting the idea that you have no idea how InterMail deals with the phone translation table.

    with that table, the NC cannot be called and neither can any other
    local or domestic numbers...

    Of course they can. Numbers in area code 02 are translated as follows:

    61-x-yyyy-zzzz -> yyyy-zzzz

    Numbers in aother area codes are translated as:

    61-x-yyyy-zzzz -> 0x-yyyy-zzzz

    The hypothetical POTS node in New South Wales runing InterMail and using this translation table can call any other POTS node in Australia.

    show how their flow through the table could result in 000 so others
    can see what actually happens and how?

    Simple. There is no default prefix defined and a number starting with zero generates no match in the table. So a number starting with 000 is dialled "as is".

    But you know that...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Dale Shipp on Tue Jun 26 19:45:52 2018
    Hello Dale,

    On Tuesday June 26 2018 01:31, you wrote to me:

    MVDV>> But... there was no option to not dial certain numbers at all.
    MVDV>> My POTS mailer, InterMail, had no documented way to tell it to
    MVDV>> never attempt to dial numbers starting with 000-.

    It is possible Intermail had a way to do that. One could set up cost tables. Page 16-17 of your manual. I think that there was also a way
    to tell intermail not to call numbers with a high cost at certain
    times of the day, but I cannot find that in my manual. If so, one
    could set a very high cost for 000 and then not allow that cost to
    dial at any time during the 24 hour day.

    I vaguely remember you mentioning that when we discussed this about a decade ago. I do not recall all the details, but I do remember studying the manual and
    like you not finding a documented way to do it. I have dropped InterMail when I
    dropped POTS over 5 years ago and the manual is probably stlll somewehere around, but it is not within reach.

    Perhaps someone can fill in the second step to make that work, or not
    -- since not many folks are still using intermail.

    Perhaps. But even /if/ there is a documented way to have Intermail to never attempt to dial numbers starting with 000-, it is no guarantee that all classic
    POTS mailers can do it. There is no way that we can catch them all.

    One of the weak points of Fidonet is that it is so hard to get rid of bad ideas. One of those bad ideas is putting IP numbers in the telephone number field. It is in the nature of development that not everything that comes up is a good idea. Welll, it may look a good idea when it first pops up, but on closer look it is not. In science and industry it is common that ideas come and
    go. The good ones are kept and the bad ones are dropped. When was the last time
    you saw a car with a Wankel engine? Have you ever heard of Fred Hoyle's steady state theory? But in Fidonet this mechanism does not seem to work. The good ideas are kept, but he bad ones are seldom dropped. There is always someone who
    wants to hold on to them. :(

    Using bogus telephone numbers was a bad idea to begin with. It is unsafe and it
    may cause high cost to the caller and lots of inconvience for the proverbal old
    lady that is called by a modem in the middle of the night.

    There is no excuse to continue this bad practise. The INA flag has been in use for over a decade. No need to put IP info in field seven. Versions of MakeNl that can list IP only nodes as -Unpublished- without Pvt are available for all common OS's. There is no excuse for still listing all zero telephone numbers.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 29 23:12:18 2018
    but we continue...

    MvdV> No, we don't because the translation process terminates at the first match.

    What? What mailer does that?

    Neither Argus nor Frontdoor does that.

    Why do you think it's necessary to translate e.g. '61-' to '0-' with the trailing dash if not to prevent the next parsing from doing an unwanted translation like the one mark demonstrated with lots of 0011- in the translated
    number presented to the modem?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Tony Langdon on Fri Jun 29 16:09:30 2018

    On 2018 Jun 29 07:28:00, you wrote to me:

    to dial your area codes, do you have to dial the 0, too?

    international - 61-2-9727-7775
    domestic - 02-9727-7775
    local - 9727-7775

    Yes, that's correct.

    thanks!

    if so, that shows that michael's dial translation was even more
    broken than first seen...

    It looked too simple. :)

    did you see my post and what the above number (Z3C's number, actually) looked like after running it through that translation table? it is a good thing that they're only single pass and not multiple pass :lol:

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555.1 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat Jun 30 01:05:28 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Friday June 29 2018 23:12, you wrote to me:

    Neither Argus nor Frontdoor does that.

    The world of Fidonet is bigger than Argus and |FrontDoor,

    Why do you think it's necessary to translate e.g. '61-' to '0-'
    with the trailing dash if not to prevent the next parsing from doing
    an unwanted translation like the one mark demonstrated with lots of
    0011- in the translated number presented to the modem?

    Ok, so maybe the example I gave was to complicated for you. How about a minimalistic example. One that will still allow an Aussie POTS node to dial his/her NC and dial 000 from the nodelist?

    DIAL
    61- 0
    END


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/5555.1)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Sat Jun 30 08:24:00 2018
    On 06-29-18 16:09, mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
    It looked too simple. :)

    did you see my post and what the above number (Z3C's number, actually) looked like after running it through that translation table? it is a
    good thing that they're only single pass and not multiple pass :lol:

    I recall seeing something, though there's been a lot of posts on this. :)


    ... Rehab is for quitters.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Jun 30 02:20:40 2018
    MvdV> The world of Fidonet is bigger than Argus and |FrontDoor,

    With all the copies flying around, not by much.

    MvdV> Ok, so maybe the example I gave was to complicated for you.

    Why suddenly resorting to insults? Did I insult you in any of my comments?

    MvdV> How about a minimalistic example.

    If you had one, why did you go for one that mark so easily proved was not even remotely playing?

    MvdV> One that will still allow an Aussie POTS node to
    MvdV> dial his/her NC and dial 000 from the nodelist?

    MvdV> DIAL
    MvdV> 61- 0
    MvdV> END

    That's what I call a straw man.

    Why is it so important for you to disprove that the 000 scare was nothing but a big hoax? After all, you are the chairman of the FTSC, you should know better, shouldn't you?

    I know that you've always hated Frontdoor for some strange reason, but why don't you let go of this hatred now that binkd is the major FTN mailer?





    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Sat Jun 30 01:07:00 2018
    On 06-26-18 19:45, Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
    spoke to Dale Shipp about The 000 country phon <=-

    MVDV> I vaguely remember you mentioning that when we discussed
    MVDV> this about a decade ago. I do not recall all the details,

    Perhaps so, and I do not recall the details either. As you say later,
    it most likely no longer matters as far as Intermail is concerned.

    MVDV> but I do remember studying the manual and like you not
    MVDV> finding a documented way to do it. I have dropped InterMail
    MVDV> when I dropped POTS over 5 years ago and the manual is
    MVDV> probably stlll somewehere around, but it is not within
    MVDV> reach.

    I dropped it when other factors made me go to windows and I moved to
    Argus. That is where I still am. It works well enough for me.

    MVDV> One of the weak points of Fidonet is that it is so hard to get rid of
    MVDV> bad ideas. One of those bad ideas is putting IP numbers in the
    MVDV> telephone number field. It is in the nature of development

    For many, IP numbers are a transitory thing anyhow, at the whim of their Internet provider. I did once have a fixed IP address, but that
    provider went bankrupt.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:12:16, 30 Jun 2018
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Sat Jun 30 09:48:56 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Thursday June 28 2018 13:41, you wrote to me:

    As for "complete", the challenge was to present a configuration
    that could do two thing:

    1) Have an Ausie POTS node call his/her NC.
    2) Have an Aussie node call 000 from he nodelist.

    you failed the challenge... 000- *has* to be stripped leaving the rest which should be the IP or host name... if ANY mailer doesn't strip the leading 000- then they cannot dial any internet numbers...

    The ability to "dial internet numbers" was not a requirement of the challenge.

    Classic POTS mailers can't "dial internet numbers" anyway. They can only dial numbers on the public telephone system.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Sat Jun 30 18:12:24 2018
    Hello Björn,

    On Saturday June 30 2018 02:20, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> The world of Fidonet is bigger than Argus and FrontDoor,

    With all the copies flying around, not by much.

    To decide if something is harmless or harmfull, one has to consider all applications. Not just the two most used...

    MvdV>> Ok, so maybe the example I gave was too complicated for you.

    Why suddenly resorting to insults?

    Sorry if you felt insulted. I take back the last two words of the above sentence.

    Did I insult you in any of my comments?

    Not me, but you did call Malcolm an "Aussie Kid" and he is not here to defend himself.

    MvdV>> How about a minimalistic example.

    If you had one, why did you go for one that mark so easily proved
    was not even remotely playing?

    I wanted to present a more interesting sample than just the bare minimum. A mistake obviously. Mark's "proof" was based on a false assumption on how to read the table, and hence invalid.

    MvdV>> One that will still allow an Aussie POTS node to
    MvdV>> dial his/her NC and dial 000 from the nodelist?

    MvdV>> DIAL
    MvdV>> 61- 0
    MvdV>> END

    That's what I call a straw man.

    Does or does it not:

    A) allow the node to call his/her NC?
    B) allow the node to call 000 from the nodelist?

    Why is it so important for you to disprove that the 000 scare was nothing but a big hoax? After all, you are the chairman of the FTSC,
    you should know better, shouldn't you?

    I wonder why you think the onus of proof is on me. It is YOU that claims it is a hoax, the onus of proof is on you. Until you prove otherwise, I still say that Malcom's concerns were justified and that putting anything other than a valid dialable telephone number or -Unpublished- in the nodelist is a bad idea in any case.

    I know that you've always hated Frontdoor for some strange reason,
    but why don't you let go of this hatred now that binkd is the major
    FTN mailer?

    I don't hate FrontDoor, but I do not like the atmosphere of holyness that surrounds it. I recognise a mutual admiration society when I smell one. FrontDoor was, and for those stuck in the 16 bit DOS POTS era still is, an excellent mailer. But it is not the shining beacon of light that we all should follow. And not every idea coming from its surroundings is a good idea. Putting
    IP numbers in the phone number field was a bad idea.

    You have a science education. You should know that science goes by trial and error. Most of the theories that emerge are falsified sooner or later and dropped. Even Hawking retracted some of his ideas.

    I myself participated in the think tank that considered how to get IP infomation in the nodelist. At one time I suggested to use AAA as a prefix instead of 000 for putting IP numbers in the phone field. AAA being the DTMF dialable number associated with 697/1633 Hz.

    Some though it an excellent idea. But it was shot down because not all nodelist
    processing software could deal with A-D as digits in telephone numbers. So I retracted the idea. Nice try but not a good idea after all. No trial end error without error.

    So why do /you/ insist on hanging on to this bad idea? We have flags to advertise IP connect info. The flags offer much more flexibility than sacrificing the telephone number field for just one static IPv4 address.

    We have dynamic addresses, we have IPv6 and we have nodes that can be reached by more than one address. Plus that we even have some nodes that are still reaceable by both POTS and IP. All that can be covered by the flags. But not by
    putting a static IPv4 number in the phone field.

    So why do you you insist on hanging on to this bad idea instead of just admitting there are better ways, drop it and move on?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Jun 30 19:14:37 2018
    MvdV> you did call Malcolm an "Aussie Kid"

    NO. I. DID. NOT!

    I'm sorry that I've forgotten the name of the Aussie kid that started the hoax, but it was *NOT* Malcolm. I've already explained that, maybe you missed that message from me?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat Jun 30 23:14:36 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Saturday June 30 2018 19:14, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> you did call Malcolm an "Aussie Kid"

    NO. I. DID. NOT!

    I'm sorry that I've forgotten the name of the Aussie kid that
    started the hoax, but it was *NOT* Malcolm. I've already explained
    that, maybe you missed that message from me?

    Yes, I missed it in he noise. Going back in the thread, I found it. But I am not sure accusing Malcolm of falling for the hoax initiated by an Aussi Kid is any less of an insult...

    Hoax or not, Aussie Kid or not, I still say putting IP adresses in field 7 was a bad idea.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Dale Shipp on Sun Jul 1 00:02:34 2018
    Hello Dale,

    On Saturday June 30 2018 01:07, you wrote to me:

    MVDV>> I vaguely remember you mentioning that when we discussed this
    MVDV>> about a decade ago. I do not recall all the details,

    Perhaps so, and I do not recall the details either. As you say later,
    it most likely no longer matters as far as Intermail is concerned.

    I looked in my archives and I see that my IM.EXE is dated 06/04/1998. 20 years old. I can't remember if that is the date of the original .exe or if the date was changed when I applied tppatch.exe to fix the infamous error 400 problem.

    Whatever... I enjoyed using it and it served me well at the time. But twenty years of water has flowed through the river and the world has changed and so has Fidonet. InterMail was written for the POTS age. It managed to survive ISDN
    with some external help, but that was it.

    Analog telephony and ISDN are on the way out. It is all VOIP these days. And although modem over VOIP works to a certain extent, it is like putting a saddled horse on a trailer behind a car. Forget about the saddle, forget about the horse, forget the trailer, just use the car to get from A to B.

    MVDV>> but I do remember studying the manual and like you not
    MVDV>> finding a documented way to do it. I have dropped InterMail
    MVDV>> when I dropped POTS over 5 years ago and the manual is
    MVDV>> probably stlll somewehere around, but it is not within
    MVDV>> reach.

    I dropped it when other factors made me go to windows and I moved to Argus. That is where I still am. It works well enough for me.

    Yes, there is that. InterMail got stuck on DOS. The users wanted an OS/2 version, but Peter was working on a native Windows version. Neither got of the ground...

    MVDV>> One of the weak points of Fidonet is that it is so hard to get
    MVDV>> rid of bad ideas. One of those bad ideas is putting IP numbers
    MVDV>> in the telephone number field. It is in the nature of
    MVDV>> development

    For many, IP numbers are a transitory thing anyhow, at the whim of
    their Internet provider. I did once have a fixed IP address, but that provider went bankrupt.

    I too started out with a static IP address. But even those presumably "fixed" adresses are not for eternity, using a host name is more flexible. Upating the DNS records is much faster than updating the nodelist.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jul 1 13:03:00 2018
    On 07-01-18 00:02, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Dale Shipp <=-

    Analog telephony and ISDN are on the way out. It is all VOIP these
    days. And although modem over VOIP works to a certain extent, it is
    like putting a saddled horse on a trailer behind a car. Forget about
    the saddle, forget about the horse, forget the trailer, just use the
    car to get from A to B.

    The only real use I see for VoIP is to get traffic from an Internet connected BBS where there is no POTS (as is the case here, where I can't get POTS, even if I wanted it), to a site where there is only POTS, otherwise I agree, using VoIP and a dialup modem is just silly. As I have no POTS only destinations to connect to, I don't run modems over VoIP, just straight IP (binkp, telnet, SSH, etc).

    I too started out with a static IP address. But even those presumably "fixed" adresses are not for eternity, using a host name is more flexible. Upating the DNS records is much faster than updating the nodelist.

    I still have static IPs, there are options, if (1) you look around and/or (2) you know the right people. ;)


    ... I was abducted by aliens and all I got was this lousy implant.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Sun Jul 1 02:06:00 2018
    On 07-01-18 00:02, Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
    spoke to Dale Shipp about The 000 country phon <=-


    I dropped it when other factors made me go to windows and I moved to Argus. That is where I still am. It works well enough for me.

    MVDV> Yes, there is that. InterMail got stuck on DOS. The users wanted an
    MVDV> OS/2 version, but Peter was working on a native Windows version.
    MVDV> Neither got of the ground...

    Hmm -- I was using OS/2 and to the best of my knowledge I was using IM
    then, in combination with SIO. I could fake out IM to "dial" an IP
    address, but don't recall what the appropriate magic incanations were.
    I used OS/2 for years. It ran windows 3.1 better than native windows
    did. I also was able to use more than Gate's 640K for DOS programs.
    Sadly, I left when I had to start sharing Windows application with some
    of my work partners.


    MVDV> I looked in my archives and I see that my IM.EXE is dated
    NVDV> 06/04/1998. 20 years old.

    Mine is dated 1 April 1996, so a little older than yours.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:43:29, 01 Jul 2018
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Sun Jul 1 09:52:44 2018
    Hello Tony,

    On Sunday July 01 2018 13:03, you wrote to me:

    The only real use I see for VoIP is to get traffic from an Internet connected BBS where there is no POTS (as is the case here, where I
    can't get POTS, even if I wanted it), to a site where there is only
    POTS, otherwise I agree, using VoIP and a dialup modem is just silly.

    Exactly.

    As I have no POTS only destinations to connect to, I don't run modems
    over VoIP, just straight IP (binkp, telnet, SSH, etc).

    Same here. The 'V' in VOIP is only used for what it stands for: "Voice" ;-)

    I too started out with a static IP address. But even those
    presumably "fixed" adresses are not for eternity, using a host
    name is more flexible. Upating the DNS records is much faster
    than updating the nodelist.

    I still have static IPs, there are options, if (1) you look around
    and/or (2) you know the right people. ;)

    Here there are options as well. But my "dynamic" address has not changed in years. Good enough for me. ;-)


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Dale Shipp on Sun Jul 1 10:39:53 2018
    Hello Dale,

    On Sunday July 01 2018 02:06, you wrote to me:

    MVDV>> Yes, there is that. InterMail got stuck on DOS. The users
    MVDV>> wanted an OS/2 version, but Peter was working on a native
    MVDV>> Windows version. Neither got of the ground...

    Hmm -- I was using OS/2 and to the best of my knowledge I was using IM then, in combination with SIO.

    OS/2 had an excellent DOS emulator. Plus that a fossil driver for POTS and a driver for ISDN were available. My then main feed, first a my Boss when I was a
    point,. later as my Hub when I got my own node number, ran three incarnations of InterMail under OS/2. Both POTS and ISDN. A very stable system.

    I could fake out IM to "dial" an IP address, but don't recall what the appropriate magic incanations were.

    I suppose it was possible, but I do not know of anyone in my direct environment
    that ever tried. Thye main feed I was talking about abovem left Fidonet before the advent of Fido over IP.

    I have also experimented with Frontdoor and InterMail myself. But then I already saw that OS/2 was a dead end. What made me drop it was that I could not
    make it talk to Novell Personal Netware. That problem was solved later, but then I had already left OS/2 behind and I am not one to turn back...

    I used OS/2 for years. It ran windows 3.1 better than native windows
    did. I also was able to use more than Gate's 640K for DOS programs.

    Yes, I remember that...

    Sadly, I left when I had to start sharing Windows application with
    some of my work partners.

    I didn't really feel sad leaving OS/2 behind. It was a very good OS, but when IBM pulled out, it was doomed to become a dead end. eComStation and ArcaOS are
    just rearguard squirmishes. The fact that now, almost two decades into the 3rd millennium there still is no IPv6 support, is telling...

    MVDV>> I looked in my archives and I see that my IM.EXE is dated
    NVDV>> 06/04/1998. 20 years old.

    Mine is dated 1 April 1996, so a little older than yours.

    I have version 2.50. That required a new key. Perhaps you have version 2.29 that still worked with the original 1.xx key?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Kees van Eeten on Sun Jul 1 08:52:00 2018
    Kees van Eeten wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

    again, I will go to Lapland a bit more dull and not as extensive. But
    coming from the Netherlands, everything more that 300 Km away is far
    and

    Heck - in the USA, 300Km won't get you into the next state! I'm fortunate
    to live on the Pacific coast, with an ocean view on a clear day. in 300 Km
    or less, I could be in Los Angeles, San Francisco, skiing in the the Sierra Nevada mountains at Squaw Valley (site of the 1960 winter olympics),
    visit Napa/Sonoma (some of the best grape-growing weather in the world) or
    walk among thousand year old Redwood forests - all without leaving California...



    ... Have you ever asked a question you weren't supposed to ask?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.49
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Björn Felten on Sun Jul 1 08:56:00 2018
    Björn Felten wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    My bad, I didn't notice that the table was incomplete. The 9 was missing too, so for instance RC40 cannot be dialled. And by the time
    this happened a lot of other Asian nodes (many of them in 9-land) were nodelisted.

    "I saw a close friend of mine the other day... He said "Stephen, why
    haven't you called me?" I said, "I can't call everyone I want - my new
    phone has no five on it.".

    He said, "How long have you had it?" I said, "I don't know, my calendar has
    no sevens..."

    --Stephen Wright

    ... Have you ever asked a question you weren't supposed to ask?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.49
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Kurt Weiske on Mon Jul 2 08:08:47 2018
    On 2/07/2018 01:52, Kurt Weiske -> Kees van Eeten wrote:

    again, I will go to Lapland a bit more dull and not as extensive. But
    coming from the Netherlands, everything more that 300 Km away is far
    and

    Heck - in the USA, 300Km won't get you into the next state!
    [...]

    And compared to Australian states, US ones are tiny.

    Texas is the second largest U.S. state, after Alaska, with an area of 696,200 kmý.

    Western Australia 2.646 million kmý
    Queensland 1.853 million kmý
    Northern Territory 1.421 million kmý
    South Australia 984,377 kmý
    New South Wales 809,444 kmý

    Size isn't everything.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jul 1 17:30:36 2018

    On 2018 Jun 29 22:23:10, you wrote to me:

    We've already agreed that a misconfigured mailer can dial whatever
    you like.

    exactly... i don't understand why everyone seems to drop the
    "properly configured" aspect when this discussion comes up...

    Malcolm's concernes were about an accidental misconfiguration by a newby.

    that's always been a problem... even here in the states...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Cure for postal strikes: mail them their strike pay.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jul 1 17:31:30 2018

    On 2018 Jun 29 22:27:14, you wrote to me:

    that a really really really bad translation table...

    Thank you.

    :)

    why are 0, 6, and 9 left out?

    They are not needed for the demo.

    demo? i thought this was a valid, live and active table from a real system...

    that's just the table... how about providing a few numbers and

    Bjorn asked for the table. Not for an explanation of how these tables
    work.

    eg: 61-2-9727-7775
    1st line strips 61-2 so the number is 9727-7775.
    valid local number?

    It is Scott Littles' number, so it should be...

    yep...

    but we continue...

    No, we don't because the translation process terminates at the first
    match.

    are you sure about that?

    4th line changes 2 to 0011-2 so the number is
    970011-27-7775.
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?

    No of course not. Even if it continues, it does not work like that. The 2 in the first line only compares against the first digit in the number. No match.

    i don't know about that first digit match... my understanding is that it would match any 2 in the line... if it weren't such a PITA i'd test FD more... the documentation doesn't have a lot of information and only a few examples...

    AFAICS, the only one that is valid is the first part that strips 61-2-
    off the number... the rest of the translations are all invalid which
    tells even more about the table being bad...

    You either have no idea how the tables in InterMail work

    they do like they do in FD, AFAIK...

    or you are just trolling again.

    absolutely not! i spent a lot of time writing that post and doing a lot of research and testing before i posted it... the way you say it, everyone is a troll...

    Since you are very familiar with FrontDoor and InterMail is a fork of
    FD, I have great difficulty accepting the idea that you have no idea
    how InterMail deals with the phone translation table.

    then my input should have some weight that other's with no idea will not carry...

    with that table, the NC cannot be called and neither can any other
    local or domestic numbers...

    Of course they can. Numbers in area code 02 are translated as follows:

    61-x-yyyy-zzzz -> yyyy-zzzz

    i already pointed that out...

    Numbers in aother area codes are translated as:

    61-x-yyyy-zzzz -> 0x-yyyy-zzzz

    how?! the table is wrong... you said above that

    1. first hit stops processing.
    2. the 2 matches the first digit in the number.

    in the original table you posted, all the single digit entries, except '6' if it existed, will never process and the numbers won't be altered since those single digits are not the first characters in the numbers...

    also, those single digit entries won't be processed because the "61-2-" entry will match "61-2-xxxx-xxxx" numbers and the "61- 0-" entry will match all other
    "61-x-xxxx-xxxx" and then processing for OZ numbers will stop... all other numbers given will have their first country code digit prefixed with an international dialing code and then processing will stop...

    tracing through those two reasons is why i think your explanation is not right... the proper way, without a default prefix, would be

    DIAL / 0011-
    61-1- 01-
    61-2-
    61-3- 03-
    61-4- 04-
    61-5- 05-
    61-6- 06-
    61-7- 07-
    61-8- 08-
    61-9- 09-
    000-
    END

    at the very least the cost table would be something like

    COST 15 200
    000- 100000
    END


    The hypothetical POTS node in New South Wales runing InterMail and
    using this translation table can call any other POTS node in
    Australia.

    hypothetical? you are trying to be me? ;)

    show how their flow through the table could result in 000 so others
    can see what actually happens and how?

    Simple. There is no default prefix defined and a number starting with
    zero generates no match in the table. So a number starting with 000 is dialled "as is".

    hummm...

    But you know that...

    actually, no, i didn't... even after spending time manually working through it... i missed the lack of default prefix when it came to processing other numbers...

    in any case, the point made by others in previous posts over the years is that the operator is responsible... yes, even here in the states, the gendarmes will
    come out to your facility if your mailer has gone stupid and is dialing 911, 411 and other similar numbers over and over and over and over...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Aliens Have Examined My Internal Organs.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jul 1 17:57:44 2018

    On 2018 Jun 30 01:05:28, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

    Ok, so maybe the example I gave was to complicated for you. How about
    a minimalistic example. One that will still allow an Aussie POTS node
    to dial his/her NC and dial 000 from the nodelist?

    DIAL
    61- 0
    END

    that won't work... a local has the 61-x stripped off... the above doesn't do that so at best they'll be trying to dial a LD domestic number... our system over here tells you you don't need to dial those extra leading digits and then hangs up... so no collection even over the LD wires which could cost more...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Gravity is most noticeable in Autumn, when apples fall off trees.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Tony Langdon on Sun Jul 1 18:00:56 2018

    On 2018 Jun 30 08:24:00, you wrote to me:

    did you see my post and what the above number (Z3C's number, actually)
    looked like after running it through that translation table? it is a
    good thing that they're only single pass and not multiple pass :lol:

    I recall seeing something, though there's been a lot of posts on this. :)

    it was this... i've added blank lines to maybe help with reading it properly...
    you already answered the first question that that is a valid number...

    eg: 61-2-9727-7775
    1st line strips 61-2 so the number is 9727-7775.
    valid local number?

    but we continue... 4th line changes 2 to 0011-2 so the number is 970011-27-7775.
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?

    but we continue... 7th line changes 5 to 0011-5 so the number is 970011-27-7770011-5
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?

    but we continue... 8th line changes 7 to 0011-7 so the number is 90011-70011-20011-7-0011-70011-70011-70011-5
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?


    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I'm gonna miss my Vikki, Vikki, Vikki, Vikki, Vikki, Vikki, Vikki! ;*)
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jul 1 18:05:18 2018

    On 2018 Jun 30 09:48:56, you wrote to me:

    Classic POTS mailers can't "dial internet numbers" anyway. They can
    only dial numbers on the public telephone system.

    my FrontDoor highly disagrees with you... it depends on what the FOSSIL and a possible additional OS level shim can do... consider a FOSSIL driver that speaks telnet and no shim is needed ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Cats are people too...no, I mean
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jul 1 18:22:28 2018

    On 2018 Jun 30 18:12:24, you wrote to Björn Felten:

    Did I insult you in any of my comments?

    Not me, but you did call Malcolm an "Aussie Kid" and he is not here to defend himself.

    as i recall, he didn't say that malcolm was the aussie kid... only that malcolm
    and others believed the kid...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... When you work hard you can afford to play hard.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jul 2 08:14:00 2018
    On 07-01-18 09:52, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Same here. The 'V' in VOIP is only used for what it stands for:
    "Voice" ;-)

    That's all it's used for here too. :)

    I still have static IPs, there are options, if (1) you look around
    and/or (2) you know the right people. ;)

    Here there are options as well. But my "dynamic" address has not
    changed in years. Good enough for me. ;-)

    I'm on a static IP from the ISP (and static IPv6 prefix), but for flexibility, I also bring in a /29 via VPN. As I said, ways and means. :)


    ... Truth has nothing to fear from examination
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kurt Weiske on Mon Jul 2 11:00:00 2018
    On 07-01-18 08:52, Kurt Weiske wrote to Kees van Eeten <=-

    Heck - in the USA, 300Km won't get you into the next state! I'm

    I bet it would if you were in MA or RI. ;) And it depends on the shape of the state. I'm about 10km from the geographic centre of the smallest mainland state in Australia (an area about the size of Great Britain). But from this central location, it's only a little over 100km to the next state. :) But out west, you can go 2000 or 3000 km in a straight line and stay in the same state. :)

    fortunate to live on the Pacific coast, with an ocean view on a clear
    day. in 300 Km or less, I could be in Los Angeles, San Francisco,
    skiing in the the Sierra Nevada mountains at Squaw Valley (site of the 1960 winter olympics), visit Napa/Sonoma (some of the best
    grape-growing weather in the world) or walk among thousand year old Redwood forests - all without leaving California...

    Nice bit of variety. :)

    ... Have you ever asked a question you weren't supposed to ask?

    Haha many times! :D


    ... An argument is where two people are trying to get the LAST word in FIRST! === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Mon Jul 2 20:02:00 2018
    On 07-01-18 18:00, mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    eg: 61-2-9727-7775
    1st line strips 61-2 so the number is 9727-7775.
    valid local number?

    That one is.

    but we continue... 4th line changes 2 to 0011-2 so the number is 970011-27-7775.
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?

    Possibility of erroneously dialing 9700-1127, which may be a valid local
    umber.

    but we continue... 7th line changes 5 to 0011-5 so the number is 970011-27-7770011-5
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?

    As above.

    but we continue... 8th line changes 7 to 0011-7 so the number is 90011-70011-20011-7-0011-70011-70011-70011-5
    valid local number?
    valid domestic number?
    valid international number?

    Possibility of erroneously dialing 9700-1170, which may be a valid local
    umber.


    ... Fear is no great respecter of reason.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Mon Jul 2 20:17:00 2018
    On 07-01-18 17:57, mark lewis wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    On 2018 Jun 30 01:05:28, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

    Ok, so maybe the example I gave was to complicated for you. How about
    a minimalistic example. One that will still allow an Aussie POTS node
    to dial his/her NC and dial 000 from the nodelist?

    DIAL
    61- 0
    END

    that won't work... a local has the 61-x stripped off... the above
    doesn't do that so at best they'll be trying to dial a LD domestic number... our system over here tells you you don't need to dial those extra leading digits and then hangs up... so no collection even over
    the LD wires which could cost more...

    Actually, you can dial a local number with the area code. In fact, on my VoIP service, one _has_ to.

    On a standard POTS line from here, I could dial 03 5432 1234 or 5432 1234 and get the same result. But on the VoIP service I have now, only the first example will work.

    FYI, my area code is 03, and numbers starting with 03-54 are local to this area (at least within 100km).


    ... Activity is the politician's substitute for achievement.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Mon Jul 2 20:19:00 2018
    On 07-01-18 18:05, mark lewis wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    On 2018 Jun 30 09:48:56, you wrote to me:

    Classic POTS mailers can't "dial internet numbers" anyway. They can
    only dial numbers on the public telephone system.

    my FrontDoor highly disagrees with you... it depends on what the FOSSIL and a possible additional OS level shim can do... consider a FOSSIL
    driver that speaks telnet and no shim is needed ;)

    SIO/Vmodem could do it with ATDT <IP address>, or ATDT <hostname>, which is common to a lot of virtual modem based serial to telnet gateways (works in DOSBox too).


    ... Activity is the politician's substitute for achievement.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Mon Jul 2 12:21:20 2018

    On Sunday July 01 2018 17:57, you wrote to me:

    How about a minimalistic example. One that will still allow an Aussie
    POTS node to dial his/her NC and dial 000 from the nodelist?

    DIAL
    61- 0
    END

    that won't work... a local has the 61-x stripped off...

    That's one way of calling a local number.

    the above doesn't do that

    Indeed. It translates 61-2-9727-7775 into 02-9727-7775. That will dial Scott Little's system.

    so at best they'll be trying to dial a LD domestic number... our
    system over here tells you you don't need to dial those extra leading digits and then hangs up... so no collection even over the LD wires
    which could cost more...

    Widen your horizon. The world of automatic telephony is bigger than what is covered by country code 1. In Europe and in Australia we can have a choice on how to dial local numbers. We can either just dial the local number or we can dial the ten digit sequence of the area code plus the local number. Area codes are always dialled with a leading zero to distinguish them from local numbers. There is no such thng as "LD wires" here. There is no penalty on calling a local number with the full ten digit sequence, the cost is the same.

    Calling Scott Little's system by dialling 02-9727-7775 works from within all of
    Australia at no extra cost.

    The example works.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Mon Jul 2 17:31:42 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Sunday July 01 2018 17:31, you wrote to me:

    why are 0, 6, and 9 left out?

    They are not needed for the demo.

    demo? i thought this was a valid, live and active table from a real system...

    Then obviously you made a false assumption. Which invalidates the rest of your reasoning that is based on it...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Mon Jul 2 17:31:50 2018

    Hello mark,

    On Sunday July 01 2018 18:05, you wrote to me:

    Classic POTS mailers can't "dial internet numbers" anyway. They
    can only dial numbers on the public telephone system.

    By definition.

    my FrontDoor highly disagrees with you... it depends on what the
    FOSSIL and a possible additional OS level shim can do... consider a
    FOSSIL driver that speaks telnet and no shim is needed ;)

    If your FrontDoor needs a fossil to dial POTS nodes, then it is incomplete. My InterMail did not need a fossil. It could deal with the UART all by itself. If your FrontDoor can dial internet nodes with an advanced fossil, then the combination is more than a classic POTS mailer.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jul 2 18:13:02 2018
    MvdV> If your FrontDoor can dial internet nodes with an advanced fossil, then
    MvdV> the combination is more than a classic POTS mailer.

    Is that a reason to deny it from using this advanced feature by sustaining a
    hoax about the Aussie emergency number?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Tony Langdon on Mon Jul 2 13:49:22 2018

    On 2018 Jul 02 20:02:00 you wrote to me.

    thanks, tony!

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Music is the universal language of mankind.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Tony Langdon on Mon Jul 2 13:50:00 2018

    On 2018 Jul 02 20:17:00, you wrote to me:

    Ok, so maybe the example I gave was to complicated for you. How
    about a minimalistic example. One that will still allow an Aussie
    POTS node to dial his/her NC and dial 000 from the nodelist?

    DIAL
    61- 0
    END

    that won't work... a local has the 61-x stripped off... the above
    doesn't do that so at best they'll be trying to dial a LD domestic
    number... our system over here tells you you don't need to dial those
    extra leading digits and then hangs up... so no collection even over
    the LD wires which could cost more...

    Actually, you can dial a local number with the area code. In fact, on
    my VoIP service, one _has_ to.

    our service has changed here in the last years, too... we're also required to dial the areacodes, now...

    On a standard POTS line from here, I could dial 03 5432 1234 or 5432
    1234 and get the same result.

    yeah, we didn't have that capability on wired lines... only on cellphones and the cell service was smart enough to keep the areacode or drop it if it wasn't needed... now that cellphones have pretty much taken over, all numbers have to use the areacode because the exchanges are now duplicated across areacodes...

    But on the VoIP service I have now, only the first example will work.

    yep, same a cellphones...

    FYI, my area code is 03, and numbers starting with 03-54 are local to
    this area (at least within 100km).

    this is one of those things, kinda like above and other discussions, where knowing the local phone operation is manditory... especially for creating something like a dial translation table... someone in the US or Nederlands likely won't have that information...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... If at first you don't succeed, you'll get a lot of advice.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Tony Langdon on Mon Jul 2 13:55:16 2018

    On 2018 Jul 02 20:19:00, you wrote to me:

    Classic POTS mailers can't "dial internet numbers" anyway. They can
    only dial numbers on the public telephone system.

    my FrontDoor highly disagrees with you... it depends on what the
    FOSSIL and a possible additional OS level shim can do... consider a
    FOSSIL driver that speaks telnet and no shim is needed ;)

    SIO/Vmodem could do it with ATDT <IP address>, or ATDT <hostname>,
    which is common to a lot of virtual modem based serial to telnet
    gateways (works in DOSBox too).

    yep... i kinda still like the idea of a FOSSIL that does the necessary translations but in this day in time, everyone is loading dll or so files for these types of capabilities... that's almost an interesting idea, too... FOSSIL.dll...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Keep playing with your floppy, you'll go blind.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jul 2 13:57:30 2018

    On 2018 Jul 02 12:21:20, you wrote to me:

    How about a minimalistic example. One that will still allow an Aussie
    POTS node to dial his/her NC and dial 000 from the nodelist?

    DIAL
    61- 0
    END

    that won't work... a local has the 61-x stripped off...

    That's one way of calling a local number.

    as tony just pointed out, this is true... i was under the impression that that format would fail but apparently it works these days... nothing was said about if it worked back in the '80s and '90s...

    the above doesn't do that

    Indeed. It translates 61-2-9727-7775 into 02-9727-7775. That will dial Scott Little's system.

    see above...

    so at best they'll be trying to dial a LD domestic number... our
    system over here tells you you don't need to dial those extra leading
    digits and then hangs up... so no collection even over the LD wires
    which could cost more...

    Widen your horizon.

    what do you think i've been doing by asking all these questions and posting responses looking for correction??

    The world of automatic telephony is bigger than what is covered by
    country code 1. In Europe and in Australia we can have a choice on how
    to dial local numbers. We can either just dial the local number or we
    can dial the ten digit sequence of the area code plus the local
    number.

    areacodes are required here, now... they weren't maybe 10 years ago...

    Area codes are always dialled with a leading zero to distinguish them
    from local numbers.

    we don't do that... 0 is the operator...

    There is no such thng as "LD wires" here.

    how do you make LD calls to other countries, then? LD calls travel differently than plain domestic or local calls ;)

    There is no penalty on calling a local number with the full ten digit sequence, the cost is the same.

    interesting...

    Calling Scott Little's system by dialling 02-9727-7775 works from
    within all of Australia at no extra cost.

    i wonder what happens if they include the leading 61-? and using 0x from everywhere in OZ works, then they only need a dial translation table to strip 000- and a cost table to set a high cost for 000- nubers to prevent POTS mailers from trying to dial them...

    The example works.

    in this case, sure but more testing is needed by those with knowledge of how it
    used to work and how it works today...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Waddya mean; Eat it, it's still movin'!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jul 2 14:05:38 2018

    On 2018 Jul 02 17:31:42, you wrote to me:

    why are 0, 6, and 9 left out?

    They are not needed for the demo.

    demo? i thought this was a valid, live and active table from a real
    system...

    Then obviously you made a false assumption.

    i made no assumption... your statement with the first dial translation table stated that it was from an OZ intermail configuration... not that it was a made
    up table...

    Which invalidates the rest of your reasoning that is based on it...

    whatever, mr witt...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Those who sling mud, lose ground
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jul 2 14:07:10 2018

    On 2018 Jul 02 17:31:50, you wrote to me:

    Classic POTS mailers can't "dial internet numbers" anyway. They
    can only dial numbers on the public telephone system.

    By definition.

    the inclusion of "POTS" is the only reason... no traditional FTN mailer identified itself as a "POTS Mailer"...

    my FrontDoor highly disagrees with you... it depends on what the
    FOSSIL and a possible additional OS level shim can do... consider a
    FOSSIL driver that speaks telnet and no shim is needed ;)

    If your FrontDoor needs a fossil to dial POTS nodes, then it is
    incomplete.

    no, it is not... no moreso than a BBS that requires a FOSSIL driver... FrontDoor and RemoteAccess BBS both require a FOSSIL driver to communicate with
    real and virtual serial devices...

    My InterMail did not need a fossil. It could deal with the UART all by itself.

    interesting... so you didn't have to load BNU or x00? if that's the case, that's the first major difference between intermail and frontdoor since the code-splitting...

    If your FrontDoor can dial internet nodes with an advanced fossil,
    then the combination is more than a classic POTS mailer.

    there is no ""advanced FOSSIL""... there is the FOSSIL... it talks to the COM ports, real and virtual... there is no difference between the COM ports as far as the mailer or BBS are concerned...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... The warranty: Bold print giveth & fine print taketh away.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jul 2 21:20:37 2018
    MvdV> I don't hate FrontDoor, but I do not like the atmosphere of holyness
    MvdV> that surrounds it.

    I take it then, that you have no experience of the pre-Frontdoor era?

    Back then, you had to exit your BBS program and start your mailer program during ZMH to be able to exchange mail.

    In comes this 17yo Swedish kid with a Turbo Pascal program that could distinguish between mailer calls and BBS-callers (<press Esc Twice>). He called
    it Frontdoor.

    And then of course he went on to to develop a lot more for our mutual benefit (see various FTSC documents) but that's a different story.

    So yes, I think that JoHo deserves "an atmosphere of holiness" as thanks for
    all that he contributed to our hobby during the POTS era.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Mon Jul 2 21:35:47 2018
    In comes this 17yo Swedish kid with a Turbo Pascal program that
    could distinguish between mailer calls and BBS-callers (<press Esc
    Twice>> ). He called it Frontdoor.

    In case someone should be interested, here's the very first version of FrontDoor from 1986-10-12. It has quite some historical value IMHO.

    http://eljaco.se/FILES/BBS/FD100.ZIP





    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Benny Pedersen@2:230/0 to Björn Felten on Mon Jul 2 21:01:22 2018
    Hello Björn!

    02 Jul 2018 21:35, Björn Felten wrote to Bj÷rn Felten:

    In comes this 17yo Swedish kid with a Turbo Pascal program that
    could distinguish between mailer calls and BBS-callers (<press Esc
    Twice>>> ). He called it Frontdoor.
    In case someone should be interested, here's the very first version
    of FrontDoor from 1986-10-12. It has quite some historical value IMHO. http://eljaco.se/FILES/BBS/FD100.ZIP

    nice, its support IEMSI ?


    Regards Benny

    ... there can only be one way of life, and it works :)

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/4.17.3-gentoo (x86_64))
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Benny Pedersen on Tue Jul 3 03:38:22 2018

    On 2018 Jul 02 21:01:22, you wrote to Björn Felten:

    In case someone should be interested, here's the very first version
    of FrontDoor from 1986-10-12. It has quite some historical value IMHO.
    http://eljaco.se/FILES/BBS/FD100.ZIP

    nice, its support IEMSI ?

    that's a very silly question, benny... EMSI and IEMSI were not invented until ~5 years later... EMSI is for mailers while IEMSI is for logging onto BBSes...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... A pay raise is like a martini; it elevates the spirit but only briefly.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360 to Björn Felten on Tue Jul 3 11:59:42 2018
    * Originally in FIDONEWS
    * Crossposted in FDECHO

    Monday July 02 2018 21:35, Björn Felten wrote to Björn Felten:


    In comes this 17yo Swedish kid with a Turbo Pascal program that
    could distinguish between mailer calls and BBS-callers (<press Esc
    Twice>>> ). He called it Frontdoor.

    In case someone should be interested, here's the very first version of FrontDoor from 1986-10-12. It has quite some historical value IMHO.

    http://eljaco.se/FILES/BBS/FD100.ZIP

    Hmm...

    === Begin OS/2 Clipboard ===

    p:\fd100>fd /?

    + FrontDoor v1.0 - October 12th, 1986
    From Future Hacker Central FIDO 501/4609, Sweden
    Copyright (c) 1986 by Joaquim Homrighausen & Peter Stewart, all rights reserved

    Usage: FD/<port_number>
    FD/1 or FD/2

    Switches: /I - install defaults (use as only parameter)
    /? - display this text
    /N - don't initialize modem
    /K - use constant speed against modem
    /L - log transactions in file FD.LOG
    /Q - quiet, don't beep at connect
    /B<n> - initialize the COM port to this baudrate
    /B3 /B1 /B2 (300,1200,2400)
    /X<n> - exclude support of this baudrate
    /X3 /X1 /X2 /X7 (300,1200,2400,splitspeed)
    /S<nn> - connect code for splitspeed (CCITT V.23)
    /S11 /S7 (8 = default)

    === End OS/2 Clipboard ===

    === Begin OS/2 Clipboard ===
    12:00:41 | FrontDoor v1.0 by Joaquim Homrighausen & Peter Stewart |
    | | |
    | | |
    | | |
    | | |
    | | | |==========================================================Á |
    | | |
    | - Disk read error. PC=636A | |
    | - Internal error, exiting... | |
    | | |
    | | | +==========================================================¤========+
    === End OS/2 Clipboard ===

    Bummer!

    'Tommi

    --- GoldED+/EMX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: ---------------------------------->> (2:221/360)
  • From Benny Pedersen@2:230/0 to mark lewis on Tue Jul 3 09:59:44 2018
    Hello mark!

    03 Jul 2018 03:38, mark lewis wrote to Benny Pedersen:


    that's a very silly question, benny... EMSI and IEMSI were not
    invented until ~5 years later... EMSI is for mailers while IEMSI is
    for logging onto BBSes...

    alzimmers light here

    i only remember xenolink


    Regards Benny

    ... there can only be one way of life, and it works :)

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/4.17.3-gentoo (x86_64))
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)
  • From Benny Pedersen@2:230/0 to Tommi Koivula on Tue Jul 3 10:01:48 2018
    Hello Tommi!

    03 Jul 2018 11:59, Tommi Koivula wrote to Björn Felten:

    | - Disk read error. PC=636A | |
    | - Internal error, exiting... | |

    Bummer!

    was not tested well on os/2 emulation :)

    could floppy drive not be virtual as today, eq on microsd ?


    Regards Benny

    ... there can only be one way of life, and it works :)

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/4.17.3-gentoo (x86_64))
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Tommi Koivula on Tue Jul 3 19:42:49 2018
    Hi! Tommi,

    On 03 Jul 18 11:59, you wrote to Björn Felten:

    | - Disk read error. PC=636A | |
    | - Internal error, exiting... | |

    Bummer!

    There's a fix for that. It's called ver 2.xx. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Computer... smoke... uh oh...
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360 to Paul Quinn on Tue Jul 3 13:22:24 2018
    Hello, Paul Quinn :
    On 03/07/2018 12.42 you wrote:

    Hi! Tommi,
    On 03 Jul 18 11:59, you wrote to Bj�rn Felten:
    | - Disk read error. PC=636A | |
    | - Internal error, exiting... | | Bummer!
    There's a fix for that. It's called ver 2.xx. ;-)

    Which, by the way, is running here. The native OS/2 one. :-)

    --
    Tommi

    --- HotdogEd/2.13.5 (Android; Google Android; rv:1) Hotdoged/1516937213000 Hotd
    * Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360 to Benny Pedersen on Tue Jul 3 13:22:24 2018
    Hello, Benny Pedersen :
    On 03/07/2018 13.01 you wrote:

    Hello Tommi!
    03 Jul 2018 11:59, Tommi Koivula wrote to Björn Felten:
    | - Disk read error. PC=636A | |
    | - Internal error, exiting... | | Bummer!
    was not tested well on os/2 emulation :)
    could floppy drive not be virtual as today, eq on microsd ?

    I have a virtual floppy drive installed... I'll try that next. ;-)

    --
    Tommi

    --- HotdogEd/2.13.5 (Android; Google Android; rv:1) Hotdoged/1516937213000 Hotd
    * Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 28 22:22:34 2018
    Hello mark!

    28 Jun 18 10:51, you wrote to me:

    On 2018 Jun 26 13:57:08, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    Here it's provider dependent. The traditional telcos still allow
    local call dialing without the area code, but some VoIP providers
    (like mine) insist on the full 10 digits.

    ....

    important when out on the road traveling and you need to call a number you call commonly but now you're in a different area code while making the call... now it doesn't matter and you have to use the area code for everything...

    We have a smaller population, so shortage of nombers is less of a problem.
    I know that companies could getr large blocks of numbers for their dialthru
    PBX, but later these were often split to accomodate others.

    Our cellphones do not have regional numbers, They are all in a separate
    groep, as are phones that charge for being called.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 28 22:59:16 2018
    Hello mark!

    28 Jun 18 13:39, you wrote to me:

    On 2018 Jun 28 12:09:42, you wrote to Paul Quinn:

    That is alright, she has been fussing over me for more than 45 years.

    over you or AT you??? :lol:

    generally we say if someone is fussing over you they are taking care of you... if they are fussing at you, that could be ""war"" ;)

    The AT would not fit with 45 years.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Tommi Koivula on Tue Jul 3 20:37:08 2018
    Hi! Tommi,

    On 03 Jul 18 13:22, you wrote to me:

    There's a fix for that. It's called ver 2.xx. ;-)

    Which, by the way, is running here. The native OS/2 one. :-)

    I quit using mine on 31 Oct 1998, at 10:38hrs. The smartest move I ever made, just before I commenced using BinkleyTerm... my second smartest move. 8-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... My toys! My toys! I can't do this job without my toys!
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue Jul 3 13:25:54 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Monday July 02 2018 18:13, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> If your FrontDoor can dial internet nodes with an advanced fossil,
    MvdV>> then the combination is more than a classic POTS mailer.

    Is that a reason to deny it from using this advanced feature by sustaining a hoax about the Aussie emergency number?

    As I have already stated many times before, anything other than a valid dialable telephone number or "-Unpublished-" in field 7 of the nodelist is a bad idea. Period.

    Even if the risk of accidentally dialing the Aussie emergency number is zero, it still is a bad idea.

    So use this so called "advanced feature" if you must, but do NOT do it by entering fake telephone numbers in the nodelist.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jul 3 14:49:45 2018
    MvdV> As I have already stated many times before, anything other than a valid
    MvdV> dialable telephone number or "-Unpublished-" in field 7 of the nodelist
    MvdV> is a bad idea. Period.

    As I have already stated many times before, an IP number *IS* a valid phone number in the 21st century -- when most of the communications are made not via 20th century copper wires but mostly by fiber.

    Your binkd mailer dials the IP number each time it makes a connection, only you don't make it pulsating numbers via an outdated relay equipped telephone station, you make it within milliseconds via the internet.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1.1 to Paul Quinn on Tue Jul 3 17:20:36 2018

    03 Jul 18 20:37:08, you wrote to me:

    There's a fix for that. It's called ver 2.xx. ;-)

    Which, by the way, is running here. The native OS/2 one. :-)

    I quit using mine on 31 Oct 1998, at 10:38hrs. The smartest move I ever made, just before I commenced using BinkleyTerm... my second smartest
    move.
    8-)

    I went to Xenia Mailer a long long time ago. It still is my main telnet/vmodem mailer. My Xenia Key seems to be dated "Wed Jun 19 20:51:30 1996".

    But when Joho came back and gave FD keys for free, I was curious and installed FD/2. :).

    'Tommi

    ... \\HAL has been up for: 11 day(s), 16 hour(s), 31 minute(s), 24 second(s) ---
    * Origin: IPv6 Point at [2001:470:1f15:cb0:2:221:1:1] (2:221/1.1)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jul 3 16:52:06 2018

    On 2018 Jul 03 13:25:54, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

    So use this so called "advanced feature" if you must, but do NOT do it
    by entering fake telephone numbers in the nodelist.

    the feature is MEANT to be used from the nodelist because that is the way things were flowing at that point in time... your own mantra of "the nodelist is meant to help mailers talk to mailers" even supports this... especially with
    the limitations of the nodelist at that point in time... i remember (and probably still have) discussions of having multiple lines in the nodelist for each node... they would basically operate like binkd does with its configuration files and how it updates existing data loaded from a conf file with new data from another conf file... it allowed for POTS, IP, and was easily
    extended to support new comms methods as they arose...

    if joe hadn't gotten wrapped up in the internet and making a living from it, i'm very sure that this usage would be a lot more widespread as well as more developed and enhanced... it would also have stopped a lot of ""debates"" like this one... especially when certain FTSC members were stomping about it... add that to the realization that it is the developers and the average fidonet operators that chose which features they will use... that then determines what processes and methods are standard practises that the FTSC documents...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... It is very much a big deal.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Wed Jul 4 00:30:24 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Monday July 02 2018 13:57, you wrote to me:

    DIAL
    61- 0
    END

    that won't work... a local has the 61-x stripped off...

    That's one way of calling a local number.

    as tony just pointed out, this is true... i was under the impression
    that that format would fail but apparently it works these days...
    nothing was said about if it worked back in the '80s and '90s...

    Tony wrote:

    We could always dial the whole number,

    so at best they'll be trying to dial a LD domestic number... our
    system over here tells you you don't need to dial those extra
    leading digits and then hangs up... so no collection even over
    the LD wires which could cost more...

    Widen your horizon.

    what do you think i've been doing by asking all these questions and posting responses looking for correction??

    So you really had no idea about how the telephone system works down under and in most of Europe. You do not know about the leading zero in area codes and you
    do not know that dialling the full number was alway possible in Australia.

    That lack of knowledge did not stop you from claiming with 100% certainty for the last two decades that it is impossible to accidentaly dial the Aussie emergency number...

    The world of automatic telephony is bigger than what is covered
    by country code 1. In Europe and in Australia we can have a
    choice on how to dial local numbers. We can either just dial the
    local number or we can dial the ten digit sequence of the area
    code plus the local number.

    areacodes are required here, now... they weren't maybe 10 years ago...

    Area codes are always dialled with a leading zero to distinguish
    them from local numbers.

    we don't do that... 0 is the operator...

    000 used to be the operator here. You do not want to automatically dial that by
    accident either...

    Actually it is very simple here. Much simpler than with you system of area codes that are not easy to distinguish from ecchange codes by dumb robots. Seeing that the middle digit of a three digit code is 0 or 1 is easy for a human. Hard for an electromagnetic exchange.

    Here it is easy. Strictly speaking the leading zero is not part of the area code, but in layman speak it became part of it.

    Here the telephone system is hierarchycal. Numbers on any level never start with a 0. 0 is the access code to the next higher level.

    Dialling a number that does not start with a 0, ends up at a local number. 0 is
    the code to get out of the village/city/area. Another zero gets one out of the country. In future a third 0 may be the code to get off the planet.

    This was easy to implement in the age of electromagmagnetic selectors. On the local exchange position 1 to 9 on the first rotary selector connect to the rest
    of the local exchange. Position zero connect to lines going out of the exchange
    to the rest of the world.

    It also works one level down. On private branch exchanges, 0 is the code for an
    outside line.

    By always adding a leading zero to the area code, there can never be confusion with exchange codes or local numbers.

    There is no such thng as "LD wires" here.

    how do you make LD calls to other countries, then?

    Dial the international accesscode (00) followed by the country code, etc, etc..

    LD calls travel differently than plain domestic or local calls ;)

    Your system is different. You have the 1 prefix for LD calls. There is no equivalent here.

    There is no penalty on calling a local number with the full ten
    digit sequence, the cost is the same.

    interesting...

    In the past it was not possible to dial the full number when making a local call. With the coming of electronics exchanges they became smart enough to recognise a call destined for the own area code. Such a call is routed exactly the same as a local call dialled without the area code.

    Calling Scott Little's system by dialling 02-9727-7775 works from
    within all of Australia at no extra cost.

    i wonder what happens if they include the leading 61-? and using 0x
    from everywhere in OZ works, then they only need a dial translation
    table to strip 000- and a cost table to set a high cost for 000-
    nubers to prevent POTS mailers from trying to dial them...

    What makes you assume that every POTS mailer supports cost tables?

    The example works.

    in this case, sure but more testing is needed by those with knowledge
    of how it used to work and how it works today...

    What more is there to test? Bj”rn asked for a translation table that would:

    1) Allow an Aussie node to call his/her NC.
    2) Allow dialling 000 from the nodelist.

    I have done that. End of story.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Tue Jul 3 10:22:00 2018
    On 07-02-18 13:50, mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Actually, you can dial a local number with the area code. In fact, on
    my VoIP service, one _has_ to.

    our service has changed here in the last years, too... we're also
    required to dial the areacodes, now...

    That seems to be a trend.

    On a standard POTS line from here, I could dial 03 5432 1234 or 5432
    1234 and get the same result.

    yeah, we didn't have that capability on wired lines... only on
    cellphones and the cell service was smart enough to keep the areacode
    or drop it if it wasn't needed... now that cellphones have pretty much taken over, all numbers have to use the areacode because the exchanges
    are now duplicated across areacodes...

    I always use the area codes, because I never know where I am, though you can still dial local numbers without them on mobiles. Just have to be sure of what area code you're in! :) But fixed line exchanges here were smart enough to work out a local number, even when the area code was included.

    But on the VoIP service I have now, only the first example will work.

    yep, same a cellphones...

    FYI, my area code is 03, and numbers starting with 03-54 are local to
    this area (at least within 100km).

    this is one of those things, kinda like above and other discussions,
    where knowing the local phone operation is manditory... especially for creating something like a dial translation table... someone in the US
    or Nederlands likely won't have that information...

    Sometimes you can't beat local knowledge. :)


    ... Guests being stalked by zombies stay at Best Western.
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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Tue Jul 3 10:26:00 2018
    On 07-02-18 13:55, mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    yep... i kinda still like the idea of a FOSSIL that does the necessary translations but in this day in time, everyone is loading dll or so
    files for these types of capabilities... that's almost an interesting idea, too... FOSSIL.dll...

    These days, I use almost all native IP software, so translations are no longer necessary.

    Let's see:
    Synchronet - native IP
    BinkD - native IP
    SyncTerm - native IP
    Mystic - native IP
    Netrunner - native IP

    Only exception is Telix under Magic DOSBox on my phone, which needs to use ATDT <hostname> ;)


    ... I didn't believe in reincarnation the last time, either.
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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Wed Jul 4 13:18:38 2018
    someone in the US or Nederlands likely won't have that information...

    Or Belgium...? 8-)



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Wed Jul 4 13:28:50 2018
    though you can
    still dial local numbers without them on mobiles.

    That sounds interesting. Here in Sweden you always have to call with the area code even if you are just three digits away from the one you call.

    I really wish that the TelCos could agree upon a function that gives you the
    opportunity to "locally dial" your neighbours by just dialling the last three digits that you don't have in common.

    At a reduced cost of course, maybe even direct without using the TelCos switch board, just mobile to mobile direct -- after all we are all within the reach of the tower...

    Come back to us Motorola! You are forgiven, but please give us back your Direct Talk technology!



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed Jul 4 14:15:09 2018
    someone in the US or Nederlands likely won't have that
    information...

    Or Belgium...? 8-)

    I'm not certain I have followed a specific thread.

    Usually I only read messages addressed to me or to "All". All the rest mostly involves mark lewis.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR33
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jul 4 14:34:29 2018
    All the rest mostly involves mark lewis.

    From my FidoNet experience, he deserves a lot more attention than you usually credit him for.

    He was a long time member of the FrontDoor beta testing echo, where most of the FTN development took place in the early to late 1990s and he has contributed to a lot more of the FTN development than 99% of the present remaining sysops will ever be aware of because I am not allowed to make the discussions taking place publicly available.

    Just let me add that mark was the one who told me how to make my FrontDoor operating without a working serial port for several years.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed Jul 4 16:29:33 2018
    He was a long time member of the FrontDoor beta testing echo, where
    most of the FTN development took place in the early to late 1990s and he has contributed to a lot more of the FTN development than 99% of the present remaining sysops will ever be aware of because I am not allowed
    to make the discussions taking place publicly available.

    Bullshit ... The Frontdoor-groupies I call them ...

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR33
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Wed Jul 4 16:22:37 2018

    Hello Tony,

    On Tuesday July 03 2018 10:22, you wrote to mark lewis:

    I always use the area codes, because I never know where I am, though
    you can still dial local numbers without them on mobiles.

    Here local numbers can not be dialed from the mobile without area codes. Seen from the mobile every call is a "national call".

    But, it goes one step further. One can alway dial the full international number. Even for calls within one's own country. So.. international access code
    (00), Country code for the Netherlands (61) Area code without the leading zero (343) and the subscriber's number (518411).

    This is part of the GSM standard. International roaming is part of the GSM standard. So I enter the numbers as full international numbers in the phone. Even the numbers in my own country, That way I can dial them from the internal phone book without even knowing in what country I am. That may not be all that usefull in Australia, but in Europe, especially when living in a small country, is can be usefull. Here it is less than a one hour drive to the German
    of Belgian border.

    And I just discovered that dialing the full international number also works on both my VOIP lines...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu Jul 5 09:11:00 2018
    On 07-04-18 13:28, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    though you can
    still dial local numbers without them on mobiles.

    That sounds interesting. Here in Sweden you always have to call with the area code even if you are just three digits away from the one you call.

    You still have to dial the last 8 digits, no "closest matching". And you always have to dial the full number for mobiles, including the area code. The "local calling" only applies to landline numbers in the same area as the cell tower.

    I really wish that the TelCos could agree upon a function that gives you the opportunity to "locally dial" your neighbours by just dialling
    the last three digits that you don't have in common.

    That would get confusing. :)

    At a reduced cost of course, maybe even direct without using the
    TelCos switch board, just mobile to mobile direct -- after all we are
    all within the reach of the tower...

    Hmm, cost has become a non issue. My mobile plan is like many others, I have unlimited calls and text within Australia, can't get much lower than 0 cents. :) At home, landlines are a flat fee, untimed (somewhere around 18c I think), mobiles are times. On the rare occasions I make phone calls, I usually use the mobile.

    Come back to us Motorola! You are forgiven, but please give us back your Direct Talk technology!

    :-)


    ... Honk if you love peace and quiet!
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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jul 5 09:16:00 2018
    On 07-04-18 16:22, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Hello Tony,

    On Tuesday July 03 2018 10:22, you wrote to mark lewis:

    I always use the area codes, because I never know where I am, though
    you can still dial local numbers without them on mobiles.

    Here local numbers can not be dialed from the mobile without area
    codes. Seen from the mobile every call is a "national call".

    That's the same here, and they are charged the same - 0c on mine. :)

    But, it goes one step further. One can alway dial the full
    international number. Even for calls within one's own country. So.. international access code (00), Country code for the Netherlands (61) Area code without the leading zero (343) and the subscriber's number (518411).

    I can save numbers in international format (+61....) and they can be dialed from anywhere, inside or outside the country. But from outside, I'd be using other means (probably a VoIP softphone or a local SIM), because roaming charges are still expensive.

    This is part of the GSM standard. International roaming is part of the GSM standard. So I enter the numbers as full international numbers in
    the phone. Even the numbers in my own country, That way I can dial them from the internal phone book without even knowing in what country I am. That may not be all that usefull in Australia, but in Europe,
    especially when living in a small country, is can be usefull. Here it
    is less than a one hour drive to the German of Belgian border.

    Yep. Only have to put them in the international format (+61...), not the full dialing (001161...).

    And I just discovered that dialing the full international number also works on both my VOIP lines...

    I haven't tried that one. I did have a VoIP account that I had all numbers dialed with the country prefix (but no international prefix). I could have set it to work as a local number, but decided to keep it international, as it made dialing overseas and IP only numbers easier (didn't need the 0011).


    ... They don't make antiques like they used to.
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    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jul 5 14:20:00 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV> Country code for the Netherlands (61)

    Are you sure?

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Connectivity is the Future; UniCorn BBS 31 26 4425506 (2:280/1208)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Fri Jul 6 09:49:25 2018
    Hello Henri,

    On Thursday July 05 2018 14:20, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Country code for the Netherlands (61)

    Are you sure?

    OOps, typo. s/61/31/


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jul 6 18:53:16 2018

    On 2018 Jul 04 00:30:24, you wrote to me:

    Widen your horizon.

    what do you think i've been doing by asking all these questions and
    posting responses looking for correction??

    So you really had no idea about how the telephone system works down
    under and in most of Europe. You do not know about the leading zero in area codes and you do not know that dialling the full number was alway possible in Australia.

    i didn't say i didn't have any knowledge about it... remember, there's many years and a lot of friends gone... RA was developed in Oz... Fastecho is German... FrontDoor is well, Frontdoor was developed in several countries... don't you think that we talked about things like this in our beta echos and/or in private? we won't forget about all the support echos that once existed with 500+ messages a day each...

    That lack of knowledge did not stop you from claiming with 100%
    certainty for the last two decades that it is impossible to
    accidentaly dial the Aussie emergency number...

    your lack of knowledge about me, my history, and my experience certainly doesn't stop you from claiming with 100% certainty that i don't know of what i speak... like i said, a lot of time has passed... would it not be proper for me
    to ask questions to refresh my memory and to learn about new capabilities and methods? we don't see you doing that...

    Area codes are always dialled with a leading zero to distinguish
    them from local numbers.

    we don't do that... 0 is the operator...

    000 used to be the operator here. You do not want to automatically
    dial that by accident either...

    :)

    Actually it is very simple here. Much simpler than with you system of
    area codes that are not easy to distinguish from ecchange codes by
    dumb robots. Seeing that the middle digit of a three digit code is 0
    or 1 is easy for a human. Hard for an electromagnetic exchange.

    bollocks! it is binary... the digital exchanges can easily tell what the digits
    are... have you even been in a central office? i know quite a few of us have ;)


    There is no such thng as "LD wires" here.

    how do you make LD calls to other countries, then?

    Dial the international accesscode (00) followed by the country code,
    etc, etc..

    that puts you into the LD equipment (aka LD wires) ;)

    LD calls travel differently than plain domestic or local calls ;)

    Your system is different. You have the 1 prefix for LD calls. There is
    no equivalent here.

    that doesn't matter... a LD call still travels via different cabling...

    There is no penalty on calling a local number with the full ten
    digit sequence, the cost is the same.

    interesting...

    In the past it was not possible to dial the full number when making a local call. With the coming of electronics exchanges they became smart enough to recognise a call destined for the own area code. Such a call
    is routed exactly the same as a local call dialled without the area
    code.

    i bet those exchanges can also tell if the 2nd number dialed is a 0 or a 1, too
    ;)

    Calling Scott Little's system by dialling 02-9727-7775 works from
    within all of Australia at no extra cost.

    i wonder what happens if they include the leading 61-? and using 0x
    from everywhere in OZ works, then they only need a dial translation
    table to strip 000- and a cost table to set a high cost for 000-
    nubers to prevent POTS mailers from trying to dial them...

    What makes you assume that every POTS mailer supports cost tables?

    what makes you assume they do not?

    The example works.

    in this case, sure but more testing is needed by those with knowledge
    of how it used to work and how it works today...

    What more is there to test? Bj”rn asked for a translation table that
    would:

    1) Allow an Aussie node to call his/her NC.
    2) Allow dialling 000 from the nodelist.

    I have done that. End of story.

    if it is the end of your story, you may sit down now and leave others to discuss it further if they like ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Ya wanna know how to make it rain? Go wash and wax your car!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Henri Derksen on Sat Jul 7 11:59:28 2018
    On 5/07/2018 14:20, Henri Derksen -> Michiel van der Vlist wrote:
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>> Country code for the Netherlands (61)

    Are you sure?

    Netherlands has become another state of Australia.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to David Drummond on Sat Jul 7 18:30:00 2018
    On 07-07-18 11:59, David Drummond wrote to Henri Derksen <=-

    On 5/07/2018 14:20, Henri Derksen -> Michiel van der Vlist wrote:
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>> Country code for the Netherlands (61)

    Are you sure?

    Netherlands has become another state of Australia.

    A rather small state. ;)


    ... The Rat Race...win or lose, your still a rat!
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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Sat Jul 7 11:30:57 2018
    Netherlands has become another state of Australia.

    A rather small state. ;)

    But fertile and with a lot of fresh water -- unlike many other states of Australia? 8-)



    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat Jul 7 21:21:00 2018
    On 07-07-18 11:30, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Netherlands has become another state of Australia.

    A rather small state. ;)

    But fertile and with a lot of fresh water -- unlike many other
    states of Australia? 8-)

    Haha and below sea level, though so is in outback South Australia, no dikes needed. :)


    ... My computer never locks u
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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Sun Jul 8 11:32:27 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Monday July 02 2018 14:07, you wrote to me:

    Classic POTS mailers can't "dial internet numbers" anyway. They
    can only dial numbers on the public telephone system.

    By definition.

    the inclusion of "POTS" is the only reason... no traditional FTN
    mailer identified itself as a "POTS Mailer"...

    Of course. When POTS was the only game in toen, there was no need tp explicitly
    call them POTS mailers. That addendum only came after POTS was the only game in
    town.

    If your FrontDoor needs a fossil to dial POTS nodes, then it is
    incomplete.

    no, it is not... no moreso than a BBS that requires a FOSSIL driver...

    I once run a very simple BBS, It was a script written in Telix, the script language for a popular terminal programme who's name I have forgotten. No fossil...

    FrontDoor and RemoteAccess BBS both require a FOSSIL driver to
    communicate with real and virtual serial devices...

    FOSSIL --> Fido Opus Seadog Serial Interface Layer.

    A fossil was needed to make use of the advanced features of the 16550 UART. It is a HARDWARE interface. Calling a virtual interface a FOSSIL is an abuse of terms.

    My InterMail did not need a fossil. It could deal with the UART
    all by itself.

    interesting... so you didn't have to load BNU or x00?

    Indeed, no need for that. InterMail had the functionality build in. There was an option for using an external FOSSIL, but I never saw any advantage in that.

    if that's the case, that's the first major difference between
    intermail and frontdoor since the code-splitting...

    Possibly.

    If your FrontDoor can dial internet nodes with an advanced
    fossil, then the combination is more than a classic POTS mailer.

    there is no ""advanced FOSSIL""... there is the FOSSIL... it talks to
    the COM ports, real and virtual...

    No. What do you think the second 'S' in FOSSIL stands for?

    If it talks to virtual ports, than it is not a FOSSIL, but something else.

    there is no difference between the COM ports as far as the mailer or
    BBS are concerned...

    I can make a gadget that has wheels that can go on a railway track. I can put my car on it and have the wheels of the car drive the railroad wheels of the gadget. I can then drive my car on railroad tracks. But that does not make my car a train.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jul 8 06:57:42 2018

    On 2018 Jul 08 11:32:26, you wrote to me:

    the inclusion of "POTS" is the only reason... no traditional FTN
    mailer identified itself as a "POTS Mailer"...

    Of course. When POTS was the only game in toen, there was no need tp explicitly call them POTS mailers. That addendum only came after POTS
    was the only game in town.

    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any other...

    If your FrontDoor needs a fossil to dial POTS nodes, then it is
    incomplete.

    no, it is not... no moreso than a BBS that requires a FOSSIL driver...

    I once run a very simple BBS, It was a script written in Telix, the
    script language for a popular terminal programme who's name I have forgotten. No fossil...

    yeah, so? that script language was called SALT... i ran the same thing a few times but not in place of my BBS...

    FrontDoor and RemoteAccess BBS both require a FOSSIL driver to
    communicate with real and virtual serial devices...

    FOSSIL --> Fido Opus Seadog Serial Interface Layer.

    no kidding?

    A fossil was needed to make use of the advanced features of the 16550 UART. It is a HARDWARE interface.

    your lack of vision is hindering you... the concept of a FOSSIL was to have a set of communication routines that could be used by anything that needed to communicate... guys that knew how to talk to the hardware would handle that side of the fence and the other software, like a BBS or even a terminal program, would talk to the FOSSIL... this allowed for things such as FidoBBS to
    be able to be compiled and run on so many variations of (at the time) serial hardware... the only thing needed was a FOSSIL... FidoBBS could even run on mainframes and minis... it only needed a FOSSIL... the FOSSIL guys would concentrate on how to talk to the serial interface... they could specialize and
    ensure that everything worked properly... the software guys didn't need to worry about hardware or how to talk to it... they only needed to talk to the FOSSIL... FOSSILs were also important when ISDN came around... but you know all
    this...

    Calling a virtual interface a FOSSIL is an abuse of terms.

    who has done that? no one that i know of... but so what if there is a FOSSIL that talks to virtual com ports? who gives a shit? as a BBS, terminal, door game writer, i don't care... i still talk to the FOSSIL and it handles talking to whatever is on the other side... if that's a PDP11 serial hardware board or a IBMPC serial UART chip or even a ISDN modem (ahem), who cares... we can communicate... if a FOSSIL driver can be expanded to simulate communications hardware, who cares? if that simulated hardware is a simulated COM port, great... if that simulated interface is actually not hardware but a protocol conversion block, who cares? now, instead of being limited to writing BBS or door games for POTS connections over a serial interface, i can write them for telnet/vmodem connections... i don't need to know anything about the hardware or the protocol... i don't care if it is communications using TCP/IP or NetBEUI/NETBIOS... i don't care if it is communications using a powerful laser to modulate the data into a light beam being pointed at the moon or mars...

    My InterMail did not need a fossil. It could deal with the UART all
    by itself.

    interesting... so you didn't have to load BNU or x00?

    Indeed, no need for that. InterMail had the functionality build in.
    There was an option for using an external FOSSIL, but I never saw any advantage in that.

    apparently there wasn't much advantage in talking directly to the hardware, either...

    if that's the case, that's the first major difference between
    intermail and frontdoor since the code-splitting...

    Possibly.

    absolutely it is...

    If your FrontDoor can dial internet nodes with an advanced fossil,
    then the combination is more than a classic POTS mailer.

    there is no ""advanced FOSSIL""... there is the FOSSIL... it talks to
    the COM ports, real and virtual...

    No. What do you think the second 'S' in FOSSIL stands for?

    who cares? a rose by any other name it still a rose... the concept was limited by time and vision... later the concept was expanded when other similar needs for protocol conversion came along... ISDN rings a loud bell... and you know the funny thing? there have been FOSSIL drivers used to talk to modems that were physically connected to parallel ports... no one bitched about it being a FOSPIL driver and not a FOSSIL driver...

    If it talks to virtual ports, than it is not a FOSSIL, but something
    else.

    ummm, virtual serial ports are still serial ports... besides, who gives a shit what the name of the thing is? as long as we can talk to it on one side and have our conversation pop out the other side so you can understand it, we're doing great... hell, one could even consider a language translator as a FOSSIL driver... i speak English into this side and Swedish pops out the other side...
    you speak speak Dutch or Papiamento into your end and it comes out over here as
    English... i don't care how... it just does and we communicate...

    there is no difference between the COM ports as far as the mailer or
    BBS are concerned...

    I can make a gadget that has wheels that can go on a railway track. I
    can put my car on it and have the wheels of the car drive the railroad wheels of the gadget. I can then drive my car on railroad tracks. But
    that does not make my car a train.

    oh ye of little mind and imagination... we lined up wagons and used horses and oxen to move them across the land... they were called wagon trains... we have little toys that ride on various forms of rails that are called trains but they
    can't move people and materials like a much larger version can... there's even trains that ride on on rail and some that don't touch any rail at all... are the connected cars that ride on the rails on a roller coaster not a type of train? should we even bring up other things like sweep, court, panel watteau and chapel trains?

    face it... the use of the technology we know as FOSSIL has expanded further than what the original letters stood for... FOSSIL is more a concept, these days... one that folks associated with fidonet technology will easily understand... other folks may very well have others terms to describe the exact
    same thing in their familiar tasks...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... And it shall be good.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to mark lewis on Sun Jul 8 15:44:56 2018
    mark lewis wrote to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday July 08 2018 at 06:57:

    Of course. When POTS was the only game in toen, there was no need tp
    explicitly call them POTS mailers. That addendum only came after POTS
    was the only game in town.

    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial
    tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any other...

    Maybe in the States, but certainly not here in Germany. I get a dial tone on my
    ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Sun Jul 8 16:05:10 2018
    mark lewis -> Michiel van der Vlist skrev 2018-07-08 12:57:
    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any other...

    Oh how I wish you could turn this entire, excellent message into a proper Fidonews article, so it can be saved for future use rather than getting lost in
    the volatile echomail archives.

    Suggested header:

    *The history of the Fidonet FOSSIL
    by mark lewis (1:3634/12)


    ..

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  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Mark Lewis on Sun Jul 8 10:10:25 2018
    On 08 Jul 18 06:57:42, Mark Lewis said the following to Michiel Van Der Vlist:

    Of course. When POTS was the only game in toen, there was no need tp explicitly call them POTS mailers. That addendum only came after POTS was the only game in town.

    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial tone... dia tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any other...

    I worked with two technicians in 2010 in downtown Toronto, in an office
    right next to the Stock Exchange building. We most certainly heard tones when we plugged in a Polycom VSX conference-system into three different ISDN lines provisioned through Bell Canada.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Sun Jul 8 16:32:47 2018
    I get a dial tone on my ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    Maybe that's why you never managed to connect to my ISDN node?

    At least here in Sweden we never (TTBOMK) got voice over ISDN, it was for computer connections only.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Sun Jul 8 15:05:28 2018

    On 2018 Jul 08 15:44:56, you wrote to me:

    Of course. When POTS was the only game in toen, there was no need tp
    explicitly call them POTS mailers. That addendum only came after
    POTS was the only game in town.

    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial
    tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any other...

    Maybe in the States, but certainly not here in Germany. I get a dial
    tone on my ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    i get that too but only in the premises side of the box the ISDN line is connected to... on the other side, there isn't one... it is all digital... that's the whole point... ISDN, by its nature, is digital... not analog...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Space the final frontier ... Wait, did you say FIVE YEARS?
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun Jul 8 15:08:14 2018

    On 2018 Jul 08 16:05:10, you wrote to me:

    mark lewis -> Michiel van der Vlist skrev 2018-07-08 12:57:
    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial
    tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any other...

    Oh how I wish you could turn this entire, excellent message into a proper Fidonews article, so it can be saved for future use rather than getting lost in the volatile echomail archives.

    you may do that :) both of fidonet's news letters have had my permission, for a long time, to use posts of mine in their publications if they wanted to... i wrote the post (aka content) once... i'm not writing it again... it is someone else's job to typeset it (like with CSS) and publish it :lol:

    Suggested header:

    *The history of the Fidonet FOSSIL
    by mark lewis (1:3634/12)

    that is fine bu me -=B-)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Hire a consultant - you'll have someone to blame.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Sun Jul 8 22:22:07 2018
    you may do that :)

    No I may not. I'm the editor not an article writer. A very common misconception as I've found out during the almost 20 years that I've been the Fidonews editor.

    I urge you to be the author of the message that you obviously spent a lot of
    time writing. But rewrite it as a proper Fidonews article, or it'll be gone with the wind in a few weeks.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Tony Langdon on Mon Jul 9 09:11:43 2018
    On 7/07/2018 18:30, Tony Langdon -> David Drummond wrote:

    MvdV>>>> Country code for the Netherlands (61)

    Are you sure?

    Netherlands has become another state of Australia.

    A rather small state. ;)

    Smaller than ACT?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jul 9 01:46:50 2018
    Hello Michiel!

    08 Jul 18 11:32, you wrote to mark lewis:

    MvdV> FOSSIL --> Fido Opus Seadog Serial Interface Layer.

    MvdV> A fossil was needed to make use of the advanced features of the 16550
    MvdV> UART. It is a HARDWARE interface. Calling a virtual interface a FOSSIL
    MvdV> is an abuse of terms.

    My memory is that fossil was needed, because the was a difference between
    the IPM PC and the DEC rainbow, inthe way the seriaport was handled.

    With Fossil that difference was covereed in a special layer and Fido,
    Seadog and Opus had a single interface to run on IBM PC or DEC Rainbow.

    Other uses of the Fossil interface followed later.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Robert Bashe on Mon Jul 9 01:35:14 2018
    Hello Robert!

    08 Jul 18 15:44, you wrote to mark lewis:

    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial
    tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any other...

    Maybe in the States, but certainly not here in Germany. I get a dial tone on my ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    Can you be shure?. My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone when it
    establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 9 09:08:42 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to mark lewis on Sunday July 08 2018 at 16:05:

    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial
    tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any other...

    Oh how I wish you could turn this entire, excellent message into a
    proper Fidonews article, so it can be saved for future use rather than getting lost in the volatile echomail archives.

    Suggested header:

    *The history of the Fidonet FOSSIL
    by mark lewis (1:3634/12)

    My suggestion: "Myths and how they are disseminated".

    I have had ISDN for the last 21+ years, and believe me, you DO! get a dial tone. If Mark is not simply deceiving himself, my only explanation for his comment would be that since ISDN in the USA was different from ISDN in Germany - which I can't swear to, but have read - he is writing about the situation in the USA.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 9 09:21:26 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday July 08 2018 at 16:32:

    I get a dial tone on my ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    Maybe that's why you never managed to connect to my ISDN node?

    You really _are_ getting desparate, aren't you? Aside from which, I suppose you
    still have logfiles to support that claim? But if I couldn't connect with your system - that was not even possible with binkd the last time I tried, but that was surely 15-20 years ago - there were many other reasons possible. Such as some glitch in _your_ system.

    I know it's typical to blame any connection problems on the _other_ system, but
    I would have thought you were experienced anough to realize that.

    At least here in Sweden we never (TTBOMK) got voice over ISDN, it was
    for computer connections only.

    Poor Sweden. ISDN was (and is) for voice connections in Germany, but could be used for data as well. No problem. I use my ISDN line for phone calls every day. And naturally get a dial tone before I dial a number.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jul 9 10:12:54 2018
    Kees van Eeten wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday July 09 2018 at 01:35:

    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial
    tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any
    other...

    Maybe in the States, but certainly not here in Germany. I get a dial
    tone on my ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    Can you be shure?. My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone
    when it establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    All I know is that when I press a "0" I get an outside line and a dial tone. And I have only ISDN plus DSL. Genuine ISDN, not an emulation. It goes through the Telekom. And people can reach me using that ISDN line. I used to have some points who connected by ISDN.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to David Drummond on Mon Jul 9 11:07:00 2018
    On 07-09-18 09:11, David Drummond wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Smaller than ACT?

    That's not a state, strictly speaking (neither is NT). :P


    ... We are ethically compelled to deny your demands!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Mon Jul 9 13:47:08 2018
    You really _are_ getting desparate, aren't you? Aside from which, I suppose you still have logfiles to support that claim? But if I couldn't connect with your system - that was not even possible with binkd the
    last time I tried, but that was surely 15-20 years ago - there were many other reasons possible. Such as some glitch in _your_ system.

    Yes, I *do* have the log files, but since you never managed to connect, there's no way of finding you.

    Among many successful connections I found e.g. one Dutch and one German system that occur many times:

    ---------- Mon 05 Apr 04, FD 2.33.mL; Task=6
    = 1.51.10 CONNECT 64000/ARQ/X75/LAPB
    ~ 1.51.12 SysOp: Jan Vermeulen
    ~ 1.51.12 Using: FrontDoor 2.33.mL/AX0002B9
    : 1.51.12 RTime: 05 Apr 04, 1.51.01
    : 1.51.12 LTime: 05 Apr 04, 1.51.10 (0200)
    * 1.51.13 Sent R:\P\0601D81F.PKT; 138b, 0 CPS
    * 1.51.15 Sent T:\TCL\FILES\FNEWS\FNEWSL14.ZIP; 9400b, 4700 CPS
    * 1.51.16 Sent S:\CM\HOLD\TK214322.TIC; 427b, 427 CPS
    $ 1.52.04 To 2:280/100, 0.11, 150 (1423 CPS)
    = 1.52.06 CONNECT 64000/ARQ/X75/LAPB
    ~ 1.52.08 SysOp: Gisbert Rudolph
    ~ 1.52.08 Using: T-Mail 2608.NT/C10/2198/A98CC361/8B94
    : 1.52.08 RTime: 05 Apr 04, 2.04.44 (0200)
    : 1.52.08 LTime: 05 Apr 04, 1.52.06 (0200)
    * 1.52.09 Sent R:\P\0601D820.PKT; 138b, 0 CPS
    * 1.52.11 Sent T:\TCL\FILES\FNEWS\FNEWSL14.ZIP; 9400b, 9400 CPS
    * 1.52.12 Sent S:\CM\HOLD\TK414322.TIC; 429b, 0 CPS
    $ 1.52.15 To 2:2443/2161, 0.09, 150 (1245 CPS)

    I know it's typical to blame any connection problems on the _other_ system, but I would have thought you were experienced anough to realize that.

    With more than a dozen (domestic and international) regular, successful ISDN
    callers and one caller that cannot connect at all, it's logical to assume that the odd caller is the one with issues. It's Ockham's Razor all over...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jul 9 16:01:50 2018
    My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone when it
    establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    Yeah, that's probably it. Just as you get a dial tone from your VoIP "modem"
    and not from the internet.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 9 17:18:54 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday July 09 2018 at 13:47:

    You really _are_ getting desparate, aren't you? Aside from which, I
    suppose you still have logfiles to support that claim? But if I
    couldn't connect with your system - that was not even possible with
    binkd the last time I tried, but that was surely 15-20 years ago -
    there were many other reasons possible. Such as some glitch in _your_
    system.

    Yes, I *do* have the log files, but since you never managed to
    connect, there's no way of finding you.

    But a fishing expedition doesn't hurt, does it? ;-)

    Among many successful connections I found e.g. one Dutch and one
    German system that occur many times:

    ---------- Mon 05 Apr 04, FD 2.33.mL; Task=6
    = 1.51.10 CONNECT 64000/ARQ/X75/LAPB
    ~ 1.51.12 SysOp: Jan Vermeulen

    [,,,]

    = 1.52.06 CONNECT 64000/ARQ/X75/LAPB
    ~ 1.52.08 SysOp: Gisbert Rudolph

    I suppose you know that I'm neither Jan Vermeulen nor Gisbert Rudolph. But what
    the hell, you're obviously one of the old school whose motto is "If you throw enough dirt, some of it will stick". I won't tell you where the quotation came from, but I think you can guess.

    I know it's typical to blame any connection problems on the _other_
    system, but I would have thought you were experienced anough to
    realize that.

    With more than a dozen (domestic and international) regular,
    successful ISDN callers and one caller that cannot connect at all,
    it's logical to assume that the odd caller is the one with issues.
    It's Ockham's Razor all over...

    So in other words, you guess and since I'm handy, you simply assume _I_ must have wanted to call you. Dream on.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 9 17:32:50 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Kees van Eeten on Monday July 09 2018 at 16:01:

    My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone when it
    establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    Yeah, that's probably it. Just as you get a dial tone from your VoIP "modem" and not from the internet.

    Grab at straws, Bjorn, grab at straws.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1.1 to Björn Felten on Mon Jul 9 20:23:16 2018
    Hi Björn.

    08 Jul 18 16:32:46, you wrote to Robert Bashe:

    At least here in Sweden we never (TTBOMK) got voice over ISDN, it
    was for computer connections only.

    Really?

    In Finland it was possible to get analog devices to work even if you had 'digital-only' agreement from the telco.

    I had an ISDN terminal box that had two connectors for modems/telephones, and I
    could assing any of my 4 telephone numbers for the analog ports.

    I got the ISDN line when I moved to this house in 1996. Then I dumped it in 2004. :)

    'Tommi

    ... \\HAL has been up for: 17 day(s), 19 hour(s), 31 minute(s), 15 second(s) ---
    * Origin: IPv6 Point at [2001:470:1f15:cb0:2:221:1:1] (2:221/1.1)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Mon Jul 9 19:44:02 2018
    So in other words, you guess and since I'm handy, you simply assume _I_ must have wanted to call you. Dream on.

    Your memory is short?

    No, I worked with you for several days in order for you to get it to work. To no avail (and not even gratitude it seems).



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Tommi Koivula on Mon Jul 9 19:46:45 2018
    In Finland it was possible to get analog devices to work even if you had 'digital-only' agreement from the telco.

    I'm sure there was, but nobody I know bothered to get one. The ISDN lines (I
    got a Duo) were quite expensive here in Sweden, so it was mostly for businesses
    (my company paid for mine).



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/10 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 9 20:49:36 2018

    09 Jul 18 19:46, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Tommi Koivula:

    In Finland it was possible to get analog devices to work even if you had
    'digital-only' agreement from the telco.

    I'm sure there was, but nobody I know bothered to get one. The ISDN lines (I got a Duo) were quite expensive here in Sweden, so it was mostly for businesses (my company paid for mine).

    I remember ISDN devices were expensive in the beginning, but the ISDN line itself was not so much more than a normal telephone line.

    'Tommi

    ---
    * Origin: f10.n221.z2.fidonet.fi (2:221/10)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 9 12:50:06 2018

    On 2018 Jul 08 22:22:06, you wrote to me:

    you may do that :)

    No I may not.

    yes, you may... you have explicit permission to do so...

    I'm the editor not an article writer.

    i'm not an article writer, either ;)

    nothing says you cannot be or do both... especially when looking at the history
    and seeing how every single editor before you wrote articles about pretty much anything they wanted to... a prime example was one that wrote about their "love
    life" to an extent... i'm sure that folks would enjoy reading about what you do
    with your UAV and possibly enhancements or modifications you may have made to it...

    A very common misconception as I've found out during the almost 20
    years that I've been the Fidonews editor.

    it is not a misconception... it is a narrow view of what is or can be done when
    one is in that particular position... can one really be called an "editor" when
    there's little to nothing to edit?

    I urge you to be the author of the message that you obviously spent a
    lot of time writing.

    i already am the author with full copyright, too ;)

    But rewrite it as a proper Fidonews article, or it'll be gone with the wind in a few weeks.

    not really... it'll be around over here for at least three years barring any problems that may result in the message base being damaged or otherwise lost...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jul 9 13:39:32 2018

    On 2018 Jul 09 01:46:50, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    MvdV>> FOSSIL --> Fido Opus Seadog Serial Interface Layer.

    MvdV>> A fossil was needed to make use of the advanced features of the
    MvdV>> 16550 UART. It is a HARDWARE interface. Calling a virtual interface
    MvdV>> a FOSSIL is an abuse of terms.

    My memory is that fossil was needed, because the was a difference
    between the IPM PC and the DEC rainbow, inthe way the seriaport was handled.

    yes, the FOSSIL was developed as a way to have a consistant interface to the serial hardware when serial hardware was quite different between the various machines available at the time... DEC Rainbow, IBMPC, and others... i suspect that some systems also used FOSSIL object files they linked into their code... especially on systems that had no concept of a TSR or device drivers...

    With Fossil that difference was covereed in a special layer and Fido, Seadog and Opus had a single interface to run on IBM PC or DEC
    Rainbow.

    or any other machine that had different serial hardware with a FOSSIL available
    for that hardware...

    Other uses of the Fossil interface followed later.

    they sure did -=B-)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... LF> Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jul 9 13:11:34 2018

    On 2018 Jul 09 01:35:14, you wrote to Robert Bashe:

    that would be when ISDN came around... ISDN doesn't have a dial
    tone... dial tone is what distinguishes a POTS line from any
    other...

    Maybe in the States, but certainly not here in Germany. I get a dial
    tone on my ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    Can you be shure?. My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone
    when it establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    +1

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I'm a vegetarian, you know, and pork is my favorite vegetable.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Mon Jul 9 13:14:00 2018

    On 2018 Jul 09 09:08:42, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

    I have had ISDN for the last 21+ years, and believe me, you DO! get a dial tone.

    take your POTS phone, not an ISDN phone or any other ISDN related equipment, outside and connect it to the bare wires coming into your facility and tell us if you get dial tone on them as i described...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Never say, "I'm game", at a meeting of the NRA.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 9 13:32:04 2018

    On 2018 Jul 09 16:01:50, you wrote to Kees van Eeten:

    My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone when it
    establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    Yeah, that's probably it. Just as you get a dial tone from your VoIP "modem" and not from the internet.

    exactly :)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Nobody ever lost money making a profit.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Mon Jul 9 13:41:24 2018

    On 2018 Jul 09 17:32:50, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

    My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone when it
    establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    Yeah, that's probably it. Just as you get a dial tone from your VoIP
    "modem" and not from the internet.

    Grab at straws, Bjorn, grab at straws.

    it pays to know how these things work, bob... not just what you (general) see, hear or feel ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Northerners can't spit out the car window without stopping.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue Jul 10 07:49:00 2018
    On 07-09-18 19:46, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Tommi Koivula <=-

    I'm sure there was, but nobody I know bothered to get one. The ISDN lines (I got a Duo) were quite expensive here in Sweden, so it was
    mostly for businesses (my company paid for mine).

    Domestic ISDN was very rare in Australia, because the costs, especially calling costs were prohibitive. Only experience I had with ISDN was when I worked for a training company. We had 128k ISDN for data at one stage, and later on, we had a partial E1 (10 channels I think, from memory) for the PBX.

    As for getting dial tone on ISDN, I'd be pretty sure that's generated by the terminal adapter on the customer's end of the line, much like a VoIP ATA generates dial tone today.


    ... To get back on your feet, just miss two car payments.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Tommi Koivula on Tue Jul 10 07:53:00 2018
    On 07-09-18 20:49, Tommi Koivula wrote to Bj”rn Felten <=-

    I remember ISDN devices were expensive in the beginning, but the ISDN
    line itself was not so much more than a normal telephone line.

    In Australia, the ISDN line charges were comparable to POTS, but local calls were timed for ISDN, while they were a flat 25c untimed on POTS. So for any decent data use, ISDN became very expensive. I can't recall what the ISDN charges were when the office had a 128k line, which was up 24x7. The call charges were capped, but it was well into the $100s/month, from what I recall.


    ... If(crash){grab_ankles();kiss_butt_goodbye();}
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Tue Jul 10 05:42:22 2018
    Hello mark,

    you may do that :)

    No I may not.

    yes, you may... you have explicit permission to do so...

    You're the expert. In the best interest of FidoNet, you should
    be the one to write it. At least the main article, to get things
    started ...

    I'm the editor not an article writer.

    i'm not an article writer, either ;)

    Time for you to step up to the plate. I did. And will do so again.
    Others have also written articles. So please, do not deny yourself
    what everybody knows you are capable of doing.

    nothing says you cannot be or do both...

    What's your hangup, man? Are you *chicken* to write an article
    for the Fidonews? Who'da thunk it?

    especially when looking at the history and seeing how every single editor before you wrote articles about pretty much anything they wanted to...

    Editor's prerogative, not responsibility.

    a prime example was one that wrote about their "love life" to an extent...

    Feel free to write an article about your own "love life".
    It will be your contribution to the Fidonews, and FidoNet
    as a whole. Of course, this could be done as a series,
    not limited to just one article ...

    i'm sure that folks would enjoy reading about what you do with your UAV
    and
    possibly enhancements or modifications you may have made to it...

    This is the Fidonews echo, a forum where folks from around the world
    can share their thoughts about just about anything under the sun.
    The editor of the Fidonews has invited us all, sysops and probationary
    sysops alike, to contribute to the Fidonews by writing articles,
    recipes, games, or whatever else may come to mind.

    If you feel that you have something worthwhile to contribute,
    then type up your piece and send it in to the editor so that it
    can be published. OTOH, if you have nothing of any importance
    to say, then I can understand your position.

    A very common misconception as I've found out during the almost 20
    years that I've been the Fidonews editor.

    it is not a misconception...

    An editor is not obliged to write an editorial. It is his/her
    prerogative, but not an obligation/responsibility.

    it is a narrow view of what is or can be done when one is in that
    particular
    position...

    It is an extremist view to think an editor *must* write an
    editorial, whether once in a while or for each and every issue.

    can one really be called an "editor" when there's little to nothing to
    edit?

    You haven't got a clue what an editor is, or what he/she is supposed
    to do. An editor, by definition, is one who edits. Although he can
    edit what he himself writes, as an editor he is under no obligation
    to write anything at all. Understand the difference? It really is
    quite simple ...

    I urge you to be the author of the message that you obviously spent a
    lot of time writing.

    i already am the author with full copyright, too ;)

    All authors/contributors retain copyright. After all, it is their
    creation. As a contributor, an author is allowing Fidonews to publish
    their work. Rights still belong to the original author, who may do
    with them what he/she wants.

    But rewrite it as a proper Fidonews article, or it'll be gone with the
    wind in a few weeks.

    not really...

    You really are *chicken*. In a cluck-cluck kind of way.
    Only clucking with no feathers.

    it'll be around over here for at least three years barring any problems
    that
    may result in the message base being damaged or otherwise lost...

    The Fidonews is archived. I can go back decades and download each
    and every issue of the Fidonews published. Starting with Issue #1.

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue Jul 10 08:03:50 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday July 09 2018 at 19:44:

    So in other words, you guess and since I'm handy, you simply assume
    _I_ must have wanted to call you. Dream on.

    Your memory is short?

    Not as short als yours, it seems.

    No, I worked with you for several days in order for you to get it to
    work. To no avail (and not even gratitude it seems).

    Gratutude for insults and continuous complaints that _my_ system was incompetent to reach your "wonderful" system? No, I have never reacted to insults with equinamity. My strength is to try suggestions and if they don't work, to wonder whether the problem lies with me or with the opposite side.

    But apparently you never consider that possibly a problem lies with YOUR side, and instinctivly react aggressively rather than constructively when a poroblem arises.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to mark lewis on Tue Jul 10 08:12:50 2018
    mark lewis wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday July 09 2018 at 13:14:

    I have had ISDN for the last 21+ years, and believe me, you DO! get a
    dial tone.

    take your POTS phone, not an ISDN phone or any other ISDN related equipment, outside and connect it to the bare wires coming into your facility and tell us if you get dial tone on them as i described...

    I use analog phons and have done so since I started telephoning. The bare wires
    into the NTBA naturally give no dial tone, since they do not carry a phone signal accessiblke without a TK-Anlage (in the case of ISDN). What you sggest would be like hooking up an analog phone to a 220>V power line somewhere.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to mark lewis on Tue Jul 10 08:17:40 2018
    mark lewis wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday July 09 2018 at 13:41:

    My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone when it
    establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    Yeah, that's probably it. Just as you get a dial tone from your VoIP BF>>> "modem" and not from the internet.

    Grab at straws, Bjorn, grab at straws.

    it pays to know how these things work, bob... not just what you
    (general) see, hear or feel ;)

    It also pays to note what works and what dos not. And to accept the truth, even
    when it doesn't agree with your own idea of what should be. Strange that you should jump into Bjorn's corner without the slightest idea of what really occurred.

    On the other hand, I send and receive many fido connections daily from all sorts of systems without the slightest problem. So you be happy making assumptions, and I'll continue being happy to accept the facts.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Tue Jul 10 08:36:38 2018

    On 2018 Jul 10 08:12:50, you wrote to me:

    I have had ISDN for the last 21+ years, and believe me, you DO! get a
    dial tone.

    take your POTS phone, not an ISDN phone or any other ISDN related
    equipment, outside and connect it to the bare wires coming into your
    facility and tell us if you get dial tone on them as i described...

    I use analog phons and have done so since I started telephoning. The bare wires into the NTBA naturally give no dial tone,

    exactly and that's the whole point! it has been the whole point since i wrote my statement... a POTS line and standard POTS phone do not need any other equipment on the customer end... this distinction between dial tone on the bare
    wires is exactly one of the major distinctions between POTS and ISDN or other some digital services... DSL, for example, can run on either dry or wet pairs...

    when i was in telco school and i learned that there are no load coils on ISDN lines, i knew they would not handle analog signals properly and that they would
    require specific equipment to be present and working on the customer premises... load coils add inductance to offset the capacitance of the wire pair... some years back i asked about getting ISDN... the telco wanted $900US per half mile to "condition the line"... that "conditioning" was simply removing the load coils... i told them that the run was 15+ miles... i'd do the
    "conditioning" on their lines and we'd split the $27000US... i'd get that part of the service for free because they'd owe me $13500US which i'd just hand right back to them thus spending no $$$ out of my pocket...

    then there was the discussion about the monthly cost of the line... local calls
    were free, like always... LD were metered by distance... i didn't feel like getting the FCC involved to beat the telco down and force it to provide ISDN for the same rate as POTS but i could have... there's a bit of a difference between $40US per month and $400+US per month... these outrageous charges are exactly why ISDN never went anywhere here and in other places...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Heads, up Boise! Incoming spuds!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Tue Jul 10 08:39:40 2018

    On 2018 Jul 10 08:17:40, you wrote to me:

    My guess is that your phone generates a dial tone when it
    establishes a free channel to the exchange.

    Yeah, that's probably it. Just as you get a dial tone from your
    VoIP "modem" and not from the internet.

    Grab at straws, Bjorn, grab at straws.

    it pays to know how these things work, bob... not just what you
    (general) see, hear or feel ;)

    It also pays to note what works and what dos not.

    no kidding... ISDN does not have dial tone on the bare wires... some of us know
    that... some of us do not yet they fight to the bare bloody knuckle bones that there is dial tone where there cannot be...

    And to accept the truth, even when it doesn't agree with your own idea
    of what should be.

    you are looking in the mirror, aren't you?

    Strange that you should jump into Bjorn's corner without the slightest idea of what really occurred.

    ummm... he and others are in my corner, sir... i'm the one that made the statement about there being no dial tone on ISDN lines... are you mixing topic threads?? i understand that you and he have a beef about you not being able to connect to his ISDN but that's another thread branch, AFAIK... it has nothing to do with this discussion about dial tone on bare ISDN lines...

    On the other hand, I send and receive many fido connections daily from
    all sorts of systems without the slightest problem. So you be happy
    making assumptions, and I'll continue being happy to accept the facts.

    sail on, my good man... you know the surface of the water in which you sail... the rest of us will continue working underwater keeping the hidden and unknown channels clear for you to sail obliviously through...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Erronious error. Nothing wrong.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Robert Bashe on Tue Jul 10 06:40:02 2018
    Re: The 000 country phone number hoax
    By: Robert Bashe to mark lewis on Sun Jul 08 2018 03:44 pm

    Maybe in the States, but certainly not here in Germany. I get a dial tone on my ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    Do you have a digital handset of some type? Dial tone was handled by the ATA in the states, and if you picked up an analog handset you'd get dialtone from the ATA. You didn't get ring voltage, however, so your phone wouldn't ring on incoming calls - at least with my Motorola BitSurfr modem.
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue Jul 10 06:43:39 2018
    Re: Dial tone on ISDN?
    By: Bj”rn Felten to Robert Bashe on Sun Jul 08 2018 04:32 pm

    At least here in Sweden we never (TTBOMK) got voice over ISDN, it was for computer connections only.

    You could nail up a voice call on either B channel in the USA.

    I loved running the BBS on an ISDN line - did so for a couple of years in the 1990s. Outbound calls were charged by the minute, but inbound was free. I had a 56K modem plugged into one B channel and got 48K-52K connects some times, as my half of the connection to the central office was digital and less error prone. I used the other B channel to connect to my Fido uplink via Internet Rex, and if I needed more bandwidth could nail up both B channels to my ISP, which was a device at my place of work.
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Tue Jul 10 19:06:14 2018
    You didn't get ring voltage, however, so your phone wouldn't ring on incoming calls - at least with my Motorola BitSurfr modem.

    That's probably fortunate. I don't know much about how this worked in the rest of the world, but here in Sweden the ring signal was 76VAC 25Hz. Not very pleasant to neither human nor sensitive electronics.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to mark lewis on Wed Jul 11 11:43:40 2018
    mark lewis wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday July 10 2018 at 08:36:

    I use analog phons and have done so since I started telephoning. The
    bare wires into the NTBA naturally give no dial tone,

    exactly and that's the whole point! it has been the whole point since
    i wrote my statement... a POTS line and standard POTS phone do not
    need any other equipment on the customer end... this distinction
    between dial tone on the bare wires is exactly one of the major distinctions between POTS and ISDN or other some digital services...
    DSL, for example, can run on either dry or wet pairs...

    I don't know whether you or I am confusing things, but I have one line into my office, and it carried bogh ISDN and DSL. Natuerally it has no dial tone, how could it? A mix of DSL and ISDN wouldn't. But after the splitter and the TK-equipment (I see it's called a "business telephone system" in English), which translates the ISDN into analog signals for the phones, there is naturally a dial tone. Now, whether that comes from the phones, the TK equipment or from the phone company is something that I neither know nor particularly care about.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to mark lewis on Wed Jul 11 11:52:24 2018
    mark lewis wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday July 10 2018 at 08:39:

    it pays to know how these things work, bob... not just what you
    (general) see, hear or feel ;)

    It also pays to note what works and what dos not.

    no kidding... ISDN does not have dial tone on the bare wires... some
    of us know that... some of us do not yet they fight to the bare bloody knuckle bones that there is dial tone where there cannot be...

    Has nobody ever told you that the ISDN systems in Europe and the USA were different? This is something I learned back in the 1990s.

    And to accept the truth, even when it doesn't agree with your own
    idea of what should be.

    you are looking in the mirror, aren't you?

    Not really. How about you?

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Kurt Weiske on Wed Jul 11 11:59:26 2018
    Kurt Weiske wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday July 10 2018 at 06:40:

    Maybe in the States, but certainly not here in Germany. I get a dial
    tone on my ISDN line every time I pick up the phone.

    Do you have a digital handset of some type?

    No. My ISDN signal goes to what the Germans call a "TK-Anlage" which converts the ISDN signal into analog, which is then fed to the phones/modems.

    And I get not only a dial tone, but the phones ring when an incoming call is detected. Whether that comed from the ISDN signal or is generated by the TK-Anlage, I neither know nor particularly care.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Wed Jul 11 12:49:44 2018

    On 2018 Jul 11 11:43:40, you wrote to me:

    I use analog phons and have done so since I started telephoning. The
    bare wires into the NTBA naturally give no dial tone,

    exactly and that's the whole point! it has been the whole point since
    i wrote my statement... a POTS line and standard POTS phone do not
    need any other equipment on the customer end... this distinction
    between dial tone on the bare wires is exactly one of the major
    distinctions between POTS and ISDN or other some digital services...
    DSL, for example, can run on either dry or wet pairs...

    I don't know whether you or I am confusing things, [...]

    i know/knew exactly what i was saying when i said that ISDN does not have dial tone on the wires...

    Now, whether that comes from the phones, the TK equipment or from the phone company is something that I neither know

    this much is abundantly clear ;)

    nor particularly care about.

    perhaps you should? it would help lessen the quantity of crow dinners -=B-)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Sugar and cream is for strawberries, not coffee!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Wed Jul 11 12:52:02 2018

    On 2018 Jul 11 11:52:24, you wrote to me:

    it pays to know how these things work, bob... not just what you
    (general) see, hear or feel ;)

    It also pays to note what works and what dos not.

    no kidding... ISDN does not have dial tone on the bare wires... some
    of us know that... some of us do not yet they fight to the bare
    bloody knuckle bones that there is dial tone where there cannot be...

    Has nobody ever told you that the ISDN systems in Europe and the USA
    were different? This is something I learned back in the 1990s.

    that's beside the point... the fact is that they still operate in similar fashion...

    And to accept the truth, even when it doesn't agree with your own
    idea of what should be.

    you are looking in the mirror, aren't you?

    Not really. How about you?

    i have no need to... i knew exactly what i was speaking of... you, on the other
    hand and by your own admission, had no clue about the details and it is the details that matter...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Don't make the wrong mistakes.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Wed Jul 11 12:54:00 2018

    On 2018 Jul 11 11:59:26, you wrote to Kurt Weiske:

    And I get not only a dial tone, but the phones ring when an incoming
    call is detected. Whether that comed from the ISDN signal or is
    generated by the TK-Anlage, I neither know nor particularly care.

    without your TK-Anlage, you have no dial tone and no ring signal...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I have closed my consciousness to all further discussions on that.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to mark lewis on Thu Jul 12 09:03:10 2018
    mark lewis wrote to Robert Bashe on Wednesday July 11 2018 at 12:54:

    without your TK-Anlage, you have no dial tone and no ring signal...

    Unless I use an ISDN phone, which I don't want to.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 16 16:29:48 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Monday July 02 2018 21:20, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> I don't hate FrontDoor, but I do not like the atmosphere of
    MvdV>> holyness that surrounds it.

    I take it then, that you have no experience of the pre-Frontdoor era?

    Your take is wrong. I already had modems before Fidonet published its first nodelist.

    Back then, you had to exit your BBS program and start your mailer program during ZMH to be able to exchange mail.

    I KNOW that...

    In comes this 17yo Swedish kid with a Turbo Pascal program that
    could distinguish between mailer calls and BBS-callers (<press Esc Twice>). He called it Frontdoor.

    That I also know. And it changed Fidonet. YoHo deserves credit for that.

    It does not make him a Saint...

    And then of course he went on to to develop a lot more for our mutual benefit (see various FTSC documents) but that's a different story.

    Indeed he did. And he deserves credit for that as well.

    It still does not make him a Saint...

    So yes, I think that JoHo deserves "an atmosphere of holiness" as thanks for all that he contributed to our hobby during the POTS era.

    "Holyness" is what I associate with religion. You know what that leads to: Among other things unconditional acceptance of the ideas forwarded by the Holy or their representativs.

    That a smart guy has some bright ideas, does NOT mean that his every idea is a good idea. Putting IP numbers in field seven of the nodelist, the phone number field was and still is a bad idea.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Mon Jul 16 17:27:18 2018
    In comes this 17yo Swedish kid with a Turbo Pascal program that could distinguish between mailer calls and BBS-callers (<press Esc Twice>). He called it Frontdoor.

    I switched to D'Bridge from Binkley in 1988 ... it could do exactly that. 30 years ago. What's the big deal?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR33
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jul 16 19:14:16 2018
    I switched to D'Bridge from Binkley in 1988 ... it could do exactly
    that. 30 years ago. What's the big deal?

    There are leaders and there are followers.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jul 16 19:39:03 2018
    MvdV> Putting IP numbers in field seven of the nodelist, the phone number
    MvdV> field was and still is a bad idea.

    Yeah, how stupid. Using internet rather than POTS? Pfft...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon Jul 16 23:57:12 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Tuesday July 03 2018 14:49, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> As I have already stated many times before, anything other than
    MvdV>> a valid dialable telephone number or "-Unpublished-" in field 7
    MvdV>> of the nodelist is a bad idea. Period.

    As I have already stated many times before, an IP number *IS* a
    valid phone number in the 21st century -- when most of the
    communications are made not via 20th century copper wires but mostly
    by fiber.

    Saying it is so, does not make it so and the physical transpor medium does not make any difference. An IP number is not a telephone number any more than A ham
    radio call sign or a post box number is.

    Your binkd mailer dials the IP number each time it makes a
    connection, only you don't make it pulsating numbers via an outdated
    relay equipped telephone station, you make it within milliseconds via
    the internet.

    Calling establishing the connection with an IP number "dialing" does not make it a telephone number any more than me leaning over the fence and calling my neighbour by her first name, makes "Joyce" a telephone number.

    BTW, telephone numbers were not always dialled. In the beginning one crancked the ring voltage generator on the fone to call the operator and then one told the operator what number to connect to.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Tue Jul 17 00:21:38 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Tuesday July 03 2018 16:52, you wrote to me:

    So use this so called "advanced feature" if you must, but do NOT
    do it by entering fake telephone numbers in the nodelist.

    the feature is MEANT to be used from the nodelist because that is the
    way things were flowing at that point in time...

    What was MEANT was a bad idea.

    your own mantra of "the nodelist is meant to help mailers talk to
    mailers" even supports this...

    Ot does not.

    especially with the limitations of the nodelist at that point
    in time...

    What limitations? There never was a limitation on what was put in the system name field.
    i remember (and probably still have) discussions of having
    multiple lines in the nodelist for each node... they would basically operate like binkd does with its configuration files and how it
    updates existing data loaded from a conf file with new data from
    another conf file... it allowed for POTS, IP, and was easily extended
    to support new comms methods as they arose...

    The idea of putting IP numbers in the phone number field of the nodelist was extensively discussed in Z2 and experiments were done. In the end the conclusion was that it was a bad idea an it was decided not to use that method in Z2 as it would poetentially confuse existing POTS mailers.

    Live with it.

    if joe hadn't gotten wrapped up in the internet and making a living
    from it, i'm very sure that this usage would be a lot more widespread
    as well as more developed and enhanced... it would also have stopped a
    lot of ""debates"" like this one... especially when certain FTSC
    members were stomping about it... add that to the realization that it
    is the developers and the average fidonet operators that chose which features they will use... that then determines what processes and
    methods are standard practises that the FTSC documents...

    In the end it is the nodelist clercks that decide what makes it in the nodelist. The nodelist clercks in Z2 decided to not allow IP numbers in the telefone number field. Other zones - except Z1 - followed.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555.1 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue Jul 17 00:54:35 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Monday July 16 2018 19:39, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Putting IP numbers in field seven of the nodelist, the phone
    MvdV>> number field was and still is a bad idea.

    Yeah, how stupid. Using internet rather than POTS? Pfft...

    Using the InterNet to get FTN *.PKTs from one node to another was an excellent idea. As was demonstrated by the TIPTOP project.

    It is just doing it by entering IP numbers in the telephone number field of the
    nodelist that was a bad idea.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/5555.1)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jul 25 04:52:26 2018

    On 2018 Jul 17 00:21:38, you wrote to me:

    So use this so called "advanced feature" if you must, but do NOT do
    it by entering fake telephone numbers in the nodelist.

    the feature is MEANT to be used from the nodelist because that is the
    way things were flowing at that point in time...

    What was MEANT was a bad idea.

    you really do not know the history, do you?

    your own mantra of "the nodelist is meant to help mailers talk to
    mailers" even supports this...

    Ot does not.

    it absolutely does... systems capable of using the internet to connect with can
    definitely use the information in that field just like any other field...

    especially with the limitations of the nodelist at that point
    in time...

    What limitations? There never was a limitation on what was put in the system name field.

    no one said "system name field"... i said "limitations of the nodelist at that point in time" meaning the 158 character line length limit that used to exist... the whole reason why the INA flag was created was to get around that limitation and thwart those who were adamant about breaking the nodelist by stuffing every internet related field with domains... rossC knows that battle because he fought it with a member or two of the Charlotte NC net when it existed...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)