• The Z1C election

    From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to All on Sun Jun 3 07:25:33 2018
    Some people seem to think that the ongoing Z1C election is of no concern to anyone outside of Z1. Not true!

    Beside the question that I have already written about, the one about the FidoWeb distribution organisation as opposed to the top down controlled NAB system, there's another question that concerns the rest of FidoNet very much:

    Q: If you as a ZC gets a policy complaint forwarded to you, how do you act upon it?

    a) You rubber stamp the decision by your RC.

    b) You review the complaint as objectively as possible, carefully evaluating
    it's merits as per Policy 4.

    This with hindsight vision 20-20 in mind, where a) has been legio...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Bj?rn Felten on Sun Jun 3 03:04:58 2018
    Bjorn,

    Some people seem to think that the ongoing Z1C election is of no
    concern to anyone outside of Z1. Not true!
    It may be of concern to Zone 2 & 3, just as any national election may be, but your opinions & questions are not required. Nor are they solicated. Stay in your little Z2 corner & discuss between other Z2 nodes. Respect requires self-discipline in not interferring in other people's business. We did not ask
    for your questions, opinions, or any assistance. STAY OUT OF IT!

    Beside the question that I have already written about, the one
    about the FidoWeb distribution organisation as opposed to the top
    down controlled NAB system, there's another question that concerns
    the rest of FidoNet very much:
    Where is this FidoWEB?! Oh, its in the FidoNEWs. AND where is the FidoNEWS? Not
    on the web?!

    Put your energy into transforming the fidonews.org website into something current. There isnt even a z2.fidonet.org website? WTF?

    This with hindsight vision 20-20 in mind, where a) has been
    legio...

    Why is it that Z2 complains that P4 is not revelant but quick to toss it out there when it supports your opinion? Take a stance, get on the soapbox, & remain on track. In the meantime, your fidonews is a state of shambles, fix it.

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Phil Kimble on Sun Jun 3 11:55:27 2018
    Where is this FidoWEB?! Oh, its in the FidoNEWs. AND where is the FidoNEWS? Not on the web?!

    Under what rock have you been hiding all those years?

    And -- how about those pesky seen-by lines in routed netmail, what do you have to say about that?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bjrn Felten on Mon Jun 4 00:04:15 2018
    Hello Bjrn,

    Where is this FidoWEB?! Oh, its in the FidoNEWs. AND where is the
    FidoNEWS? Not on the web?!

    Under what rock have you been hiding all those years?

    He only comes out to play on Groundhog Day.

    And -- how about those pesky seen-by lines in routed netmail, what do you have to say about that?

    That depends on if he sees his shadow ...

    --Lee

    --
    Your Hole Is Our Goal

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Phil Kimble on Mon Jun 4 00:04:21 2018
    Hello Phil,

    Some people seem to think that the ongoing Z1C election is of no
    concern to anyone outside of Z1. Not true!

    It may be of concern to Zone 2 & 3, just as any national election may be, but your opinions & questions are not required. Nor are they solicated. Stay in your little Z2 corner & discuss between other Z2 nodes. Respect requires self-discipline in not interferring in other people's business. We did not ask for your questions, opinions, or any assistance. STAY OUT
    OF
    IT!

    Touchy, touchy! Let's break up FidoNet into itsy bitsy fiefdoms
    so that each little group of sysops have their own playpen to cause
    a stink amongst themselves! Won't that be fun? Just think of all
    the mudpies y'all could sling at each other. It would be a dream -
    almost like being in heaven.

    Beside the question that I have already written about, the one
    about the FidoWeb distribution organisation as opposed to the top
    down controlled NAB system, there's another question that concerns
    the rest of FidoNet very much:

    Where is this FidoWEB?!

    It is Here. There. And Everywhere. And thanks for all the fish!

    Oh, its in the FidoNEWs. AND where is the FidoNEWS? Not on the web?!

    Look, and you shall find!

    Put your energy into transforming the fidonews.org website into something current. There isnt even a z2.fidonet.org website? WTF?

    The job of an editor is not to create web sites others have created.

    This with hindsight vision 20-20 in mind, where a) has been
    legio...

    Why is it that Z2 complains that P4 is not revelant

    Only a small number of sysops within Zone 1 have chosen to adopt
    P4. The rest of the world has rejected it.

    but quick to toss it out there when it supports your opinion?

    Just because the vast majority of sysops have rejected the body
    of work known as P4 does not mean there are some parts of it that
    make sense.

    Take a stance, get on the soapbox, & remain on track.

    Sysops around the world have made themselves very clear as to why
    they have rejected P4. They have also made themselves very clear
    as to why they continue to accept Echopol1 as their standard.

    In the meantime, your fidonews is a state of shambles, fix it.

    Feel free to start your own newsletter.
    Janis Kracht started the FidoGazette.
    It would be a welcome addition to FidoNet
    for you to start another one. Of course,
    you would also have to give it a name ...

    --Lee

    --
    Everybody Loves Our Buns

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Bjrn Felten on Sun Jun 3 18:33:15 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Bjrn Felten to All on Sun Jun 03 2018 07:25 am

    Hi Bjorn,

    Fact is no ZC elections have been open to all. Just to that zone. If Z2 has a R50 election, do you get to jump in and tell them how to vote or what to ask?

    As to Fidoweb, not sure what it is but pretty sure it's something Z1 isnt all that worried about with Z1C candidates.

    Just wait a little bit and the vote will conclude and you will see who the new one is.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Jun 4 07:34:56 2018

    On 2018 Jun 03 18:33:14, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    As to Fidoweb, not sure what it is but pretty sure it's something Z1 isnt all that worried about with Z1C candidates.

    all it is is multi-linking your echos between two or more systems and specifically setting up dupe loops... the main ideas being

    1. you won't lose any messages because the dupes from other systems will ensure that you get them all.
    2. if one link goes down, you still get all the messages flowing from all the
    other systems you're linked to for that echo.
    3. you can't be cut off in case of a moderator feedcut request since you're linked to all the other systems.

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Justify my text? I'm sorry but it has no excuse.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 4 14:38:08 2018
    3. you can't be cut off in case of a moderator feedcut request since
    you're linked to all the other systems.

    4. Any NAB-power games down the drain ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 4 11:59:40 2018

    On 2018 Jun 04 14:38:08, you wrote to me:

    3. you can't be cut off in case of a moderator feedcut request since
    you're linked to all the other systems.

    4. Any NAB-power games down the drain ...

    now, if we can just do something similar to knock out all the other power games
    that are played daily, the whole network might benefit more than it has since its inception...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Chickens actually have balls.... They're right next to the nuggets.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Jun 4 19:43:02 2018
    Hello Carol,

    On Sunday June 03 2018 18:33, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    Fact is no ZC elections have been open to all.

    Wrong. I joined Fidonet as a point in 1992 and all the ZC2 elections since then
    took place in ENET.SYSOP which has alway been open for read by everyone. Including readers from other zones.

    Grown up democracies do not hold elections in secret. They allow observers from
    outside. So why the secret? What have you got to hide? Why are you so paranoid?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 4 19:59:00 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Monday June 04 2018 07:34, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    As to Fidoweb, not sure what it is but pretty sure it's something
    Z1 isnt all that worried about with Z1C candidates.

    all it is is multi-linking your echos between two or more systems and specifically setting up dupe loops... the main ideas being

    0. Break the Fidonews blokkade set up by the NAB.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 4 14:42:00 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Carol Shenkenberger on 06-04-18 19:43 <=-


    Grown up democracies do not hold elections in secret. They allow observers from outside. So why the secret? What have you got to hide?
    Why are you so paranoid?


    To be blunt, and I say this with no malice intended, the election process in Z1 doesn't need the constant bickering and solicitation of some boot strap rhethoric as the proper way of doing things based on someone interpretations. It has happened in other echos where members of Z2 said 'go start your own', which was done but alas, those who suggested the idea couldn't stay away. It's a game to you Michiel, plain and simple. When you feel you can't control the situation your spew the democracy card. It's getting old so just take your ball and go home. It's just that easy.

    Enjoy..



    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 4 21:49:56 2018
    MvdV> 0. Break the Fidonews blokkade set up by the NAB.

    00. Send mail crash as soon as it's arrived, giving superior distribution speed. (See statistics in every issue of the Fidonews.)

    Not even passing netmail can be intercepted and read during the microseconds
    it takes for the mail to passthru -- this unlike NAB distributed netmail, that we have proof is read by involved sysops.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 4 22:07:54 2018
    MvdV> Grown up democracies do not hold elections in secret. They allow
    MvdV> observers from outside. So why the secret? What have you got to hide?
    MvdV> Why are you so paranoid?

    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be allowed to vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    Rumour has it that to be allowed to vote in the closed Z1C election, you had
    to have been in their closed echo -- I sure hope that's not true. That kinda limits the allowed voters to a fraction of the nodelisted Z1 sysops...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Bjrn Felten on Mon Jun 4 14:07:35 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Bjrn Felten to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 04 2018 10:07 pm

    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be allowed to vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    That is so in this election. The nodelist being the list of citizens.

    Rumour has it that to be allowed to vote in the closed Z1C election, you had to have been in their closed echo -- I sure hope that's not true. That kinda limits the allowed voters to a fraction of the nodelisted Z1 sysops...

    I don't know where you heard that. The Z1C election is open to all listed Z1 sysops. There was discussion and Q&A in the echo and voting is done via netmail.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al


    ... You can name your salary here, I call mine fred.
    --- SBBSecho 3.04-Linux
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Alan Ianson on Mon Jun 4 23:51:53 2018
    I don't know where you heard that. The Z1C election is open to all
    listed Z1 sysops.

    Thanks Alan for debunking that rumour before it got viral.

    That's one of the many problems with trying to keep things secret: it feeds conspiracy theories, and rumours have a tendency to become assumed to be the truth if repeated many enough times...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Alan Ianson on Tue Jun 5 00:36:31 2018
    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to
    vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    That is so in this election. The nodelist being the list of citizens.

    Is that "why" out of 297 listed sysops so far only 22 have voted?

    I don't know where you heard that. The Z1C election is open to all listed Z1
    sysops. There was discussion and Q&A in the echo and voting is done via netmail.

    So in order to be informed and know what to do 'when', you have to be linked to
    that echo. I count some 30 Z1-linked systems ... where's the other 90% ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Tue Jun 5 00:57:29 2018
    So in order to be informed and know what to do 'when', you have to be linked to that echo.

    In all grown up democracies such information is spread throughout every channel available.

    In Fidonet that should include our official news channel -- the Fidonews. But I haven't seen that happening.

    The Z1C election when Janis was elected had quite a lot of coverage in the Fidonews over several issues. But I guess that when the editor is from a piss-ant little Third World country in northern Europe, the Fidonews is not an option?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 01:50:43 2018
    In Fidonet that should include our official news channel -- the Fidonews. But I haven't seen that happening.

    In addition to the above, I should of course mention the biannual FTSC elections, where the election coordinator posts information in the Fidonews about the election every week as the process is going on.

    Now, everyone who has the slightest knowledge of the Fidonet whereabouts know that Michiel van der Vlist is nothing like e.g. Phil Kimble (who doesn't even know the difference between seen-by lines and via lines).

    But just the same, the above proven difference speaks a lot of the difference between the democratic culture in zone 1 as opposed to that in the rest of the Fido world.

    Please, the few of you Z1 sysops that still read up in true international echoes, try to push forward your elected leaders so that they can join the rest
    of the democratic Fidonet world!



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 02:29:28 2018
    The Z1C election when Janis was elected had quite a lot of coverage in
    the Fidonews over several issues. But I guess that when the editor is
    from a piss-ant little Third World country in northern Europe, the
    Fidonews is not an option?

    As they say, Bjorn, none of our business. All we can do is just sit back, relax
    and enjoy the show. Free entertainment ... who can be against that?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Tue Jun 5 02:49:05 2018
    As they say, Bjorn, none of our business. All we can do is just sit
    back, relax and enjoy the show. Free entertainment ... who can be
    against that?

    Yeah, well, after that it's either business as usual or a perfectly new Fido
    world. At least the latter is what the rest of the outside Z1 world is wanting.

    But I'll not hold my breath just yet. When the result is not going the way the ruling class wants it to go, they'll always find a way to alter the result to their liking.

    Even after they failed to dismiss an opponent candidate based on the "evidence" posted by an idiot savant that didn't even know the difference between seen-by lines and via lines...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 4 21:34:36 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: mark lewis to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Jun 04 2018 07:34 am

    On 2018 Jun 03 18:33:14, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    As to Fidoweb, not sure what it is but pretty sure it's something Z1
    isnt all that worried about with Z1C candidates.

    all it is is multi-linking your echos between two or more systems and specifically setting up dupe loops... the main ideas being

    1. you won't lose any messages because the dupes from other systems will ensure that you get them all.
    2. if one link goes down, you still get all the messages flowing from all the other systems you're linked to for that echo.

    Same as any other tiering system.

    3. you can't be cut off in case of a moderator feedcut request since you're linked to all the other systems.

    Folks who abuse echos then can't be removed. I can see why some would like that ability to be abusive no matter what.

    So is #3 the only difference?

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Carol Shenkenberger on Tue Jun 5 04:15:51 2018
    So is #3 the only difference?

    Of course not. That's what the NAB huggers want you to believe.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Ward Dossche on Tue Jun 5 00:51:31 2018
    Re: Re: The Z1C election
    By: Ward Dossche to Alan Ianson on Tue Jun 05 2018 12:36 am

    Is that "why" out of 297 listed sysops so far only 22 have voted?

    You seem to be better informed that I am but I'm still making my way through
    my new mail scan.

    So in order to be informed and know what to do 'when', you have to be linked to that echo. I count some 30 Z1-linked systems ... where's the other 90% ?

    I was first informed by my NC and I would hope that other nodes were informed by netmail as well.

    I can only guess why the number of voters is what it is, or will be. I hope that the sysops of Z1 will let their voices be heard but that is their choice.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al


    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
    --- SBBSecho 3.04-Linux
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Alan Ianson on Tue Jun 5 11:38:40 2018
    Alan,

    You seem to be better informed that I am but I'm still making my way through my new mail scan.

    It's called the "information age" ...8-)

    I can only guess why the number of voters is what it is, or will be. I
    hope that the sysops of Z1 will let their voices be heard but that is
    their choice.

    I don't know how it would work here. We have some regions with a still pretty active bunch of sysops.

    Let me put it this way, we peaked at some time with over 35,000 nodes ... so let's just enjoy what we have left, while it still is there.

    Fidonet for me has been a tremendous learning opportunity and some of the developers have written some pretty exciting stuff that only some 1,000+ sysops
    know about. We have been privileged to be part of this enourmous social experiment under the guise of 'technology'. There are some pretty awesome people here ... JoHo, Alexey Vissarionov, Michael Dukelsky, Bob Bashe, Ulrich Schroeter, Janis, Dallas, Stass Degteff, Pavel Gulchouck, Roger, Michiel, the Bear, Nick Andre ... several more.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 11:27:44 2018
    Hello Bjrn!

    05 Jun 18 02:49, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    Even after they failed to dismiss an opponent candidate based on the "evidence" posted by an idiot savant that didn't even know the difference between seen-by lines and via lines...

    On some systems, where intermediate storage for passthru mail is in the mail
    directory, via lines are almost the same as deen-by's

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 05:20:20 2018

    On 2018 Jun 05 00:57:28, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    The Z1C election when Janis was elected had quite a lot of coverage in
    the Fidonews over several issues. But I guess that when the editor is
    from a piss-ant little Third World country in northern Europe, the Fidonews is not an option?

    imma be blunt... the fucking editor can write the god damned article if he wants one and cannot coerce someone else to write it for him... no one was assigned to write an article for either of the news letters and, in fact, nothing about an article was even brought up during any discussions...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Bigots are themselves a minority.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Carol Shenkenberger on Tue Jun 5 05:44:28 2018

    On 2018 Jun 04 21:34:36, you wrote to me:

    As to Fidoweb, not sure what it is but pretty sure it's something Z1
    isnt all that worried about with Z1C candidates.

    all it is is multi-linking your echos between two or more systems and
    specifically setting up dupe loops... the main ideas being

    1. you won't lose any messages because the dupes from other systems
    will ensure that you get them all.

    2. if one link goes down, you still get all the messages flowing from
    all the other systems you're linked to for that echo.

    Same as any other tiering system.

    kinda except that this applies to ALL nodes, not just those participating in the distribution backbone... the fidoweb doesn't even have a backbone distribution, much less a spine...

    3. you can't be cut off in case of a moderator feedcut request since
    you're linked to all the other systems.

    Folks who abuse echos then can't be removed.

    right... they've screwed the moderators over...

    I can see why some would like that ability to be abusive no matter
    what.

    right again...

    So is #3 the only difference?

    those are the main three... remember, they apply to all systems participating... not just to the main central distribution...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Send $20.00 in small unmarked electrons.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kees van Eeten on Tue Jun 5 06:32:06 2018

    On 2018 Jun 05 11:27:44, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    Even after they failed to dismiss an opponent candidate based on the
    "evidence" posted by an idiot savant that didn't even know the
    difference between seen-by lines and via lines...

    On some systems, where intermediate storage for passthru mail is in
    the mail directory, via lines are almost the same as deen-by's

    and there is some software out there that does inadvertently use seenbys in netmail... it was corrected once pointed out but the binary is still floating around and someone could pick it up and start using it...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Before you can learn to be free you need to be free to learn...
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Janis Kracht@1:261/38 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 08:48:58 2018
    The Z1C election when Janis was elected had quite a lot of coverage in the Fidonews over several issues. But I guess that when the editor is from a
    piss-ant little Third World country in northern Europe, the Fidonews is not an
    option?

    What BS. I heard another Fidonews "horror" story recently.
    Dale Barnes mentioned to me that you _refused_ to print his article about his survey in Fidonews because you said "it is was no longer news due to it already
    being cross posted in several areas."

    Dale was looking for feedback on any new or other ideas sysops may wish or need
    for their software. He was looking to contact as many sysops in Fidonet as possible.

    You point blank refused to print his article!

    He put a lot of work into that survey and ultimately showing the results online
    to help sysops and authors... but YOU _refused_ to print his article.

    Shame on you Bjorn.

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bill McGarrity on Tue Jun 5 15:02:51 2018
    Hello Bill,

    On Monday June 04 2018 14:42, you wrote to me:

    Grown up democracies do not hold elections in secret. They allow
    observers from outside. So why the secret? What have you got to
    hide? Why are you so paranoid?


    To be blunt, and I say this with no malice intended, the election
    process in Z1 doesn't need the constant bickering and solicitation of
    [..]
    spew the democracy card. It's getting old so just take your ball and
    go home. It's just that easy.

    That does not answer the question: "why the secrecy?"


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 15:44:16 2018
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday June 04 2018 21:49, you wrote to me:

    Not even passing netmail can be intercepted and read during the microseconds it takes for the mail to passthru -- this unlike NAB distributed netmail, that we have proof is read by involved sysops.

    I use crash for netmail whenever possible. When not I drop it as close to the destination as I can.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 15:45:39 2018
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday June 04 2018 22:07, you wrote to me:

    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    Rumour has it

    Yes, that is the problem with secrecy. It feeds the rumours...

    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 16:15:52 2018
    Hello Michiel!

    05 Jun 18 15:45, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    MvdV> Yes, that is the problem with secrecy. It feeds the rumours...

    MvdV> How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    Why should we know?

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Tue Jun 5 17:11:09 2018
    Hello Kees,

    On Tuesday June 05 2018 16:15, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Yes, that is the problem with secrecy. It feeds the rumours...

    MvdV>> How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    Why should we know?

    So that our ZC and the other ZCs can make an informed decision about the legitimacy of the nodelist segments they receive?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Janis Kracht@1:261/38 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 11:46:46 2018
    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?
    Why should we know?

    So that our ZC and the other ZCs can make an informed decision about the legitimacy of the nodelist segments they receive?

    The election is not completed yet, or you would have heard about that :)

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 13:07:28 2018

    On 2018 Jun 05 15:02:50, you wrote to Bill McGarrity:

    Grown up democracies do not hold elections in secret. They allow
    observers from outside. So why the secret? What have you got to
    hide? Why are you so paranoid?

    To be blunt, and I say this with no malice intended, the election
    process in Z1 doesn't need the constant bickering and solicitation of
    [..]
    spew the democracy card. It's getting old so just take your ball and
    go home. It's just that easy.

    That does not answer the question: "why the secrecy?"

    why does the pope get selected like he does? you select your pope the way you want and we'll select our's the way we want...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... A tautologically redundant plethora of surplusage.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 13:10:32 2018

    On 2018 Jun 05 15:45:38, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    how can they not? policy defines it, right? ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... All right, I am a licensed cleavage inspector.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 12:05:00 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Bill McGarrity on 06-05-18 15:02 <=-


    On Monday June 04 2018 14:42, you wrote to me:

    Grown up democracies do not hold elections in secret. They allow
    observers from outside. So why the secret? What have you got to
    hide? Why are you so paranoid?


    To be blunt, and I say this with no malice intended, the election
    process in Z1 doesn't need the constant bickering and solicitation of
    [..]
    spew the democracy card. It's getting old so just take your ball and
    go home. It's just that easy.

    That does not answer the question: "why the secrecy?"

    There is no question as far as Z1 is concerned. Deal with it.



    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Ward Dossche on Tue Jun 5 12:26:00 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Alan Ianson on 06-05-18 00:36 <=-

    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to
    vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    That is so in this election. The nodelist being the list of citizens.

    Is that "why" out of 297 listed sysops so far only 22 have voted?

    If you know this information, I guess it's not as 'secret' as most of Z2 is complaining it is.

    Just stop it now.... it's very unbecoming of you Ward.


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 12:29:00 2018
    Bjrn Felten wrote to Ward Dossche on 06-05-18 02:49 <=-

    As they say, Bjorn, none of our business. All we can do is just sit
    back, relax and enjoy the show. Free entertainment ... who can be
    against that?

    Yeah, well, after that it's either business as usual or a perfectly
    new Fido world. At least the latter is what the rest of the outside Z1 world is wanting.

    But I'll not hold my breath just yet. When the result is not going
    the way the ruling class wants it to go, they'll always find a way to alter the result to their liking.

    This is funny... :)

    Even after they failed to dismiss an opponent candidate based on the "evidence" posted by an idiot savant that didn't even know the
    difference between seen-by lines and via lines...

    Well, those who are 'savvy' explained the misinformation to the said party you speak of and it has been resolved. You can move on now.




    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 5 12:36:00 2018
    Bjrn Felten wrote to Carol Shenkenberger on 06-05-18 04:15 <=-

    So is #3 the only difference?

    Of course not. That's what the NAB huggers want you to believe.

    Why does this concern you so much. You are linked to me and as far as I can tell, a few others here in Z1 that move all of the primary echos here on this side of the pond. The software I use does have the ability of using specific NA files as I see fit to pass along to specific links, in which you are one. You may have a different outlook with regard to the echos you distribute, which is fine as it's your system and with that being said, I should also be afforded the same consideration.


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 22:09:34 2018
    Hello Michiel!

    05 Jun 18 17:11, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>>> How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    Why should we know?

    MvdV> So that our ZC and the other ZCs can make an informed decision about the
    MvdV> legitimacy of the nodelist segments they receive?

    I suppose the outgoing ZC will inform the other ZC's who the new ZC will be.
    They will then make arrangements for the secure exchange of their respective
    zone segemts. I am quite sure that no segments will be accepted without
    such arrangements.

    The other ZC's will have to make do, with whoever is declared ZC.
    There is no governing law, so legitimacy cannot be tested or enforced.

    For some functions within Fidonet a popularity contest may be fine, but
    in some cases just appointing some one who is technically competent would
    be a better choise. Democrazy is not always a blessing.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 22:25:24 2018
    Why should we know?

    So that our ZC and the other ZCs can make an informed decision about the legitimacy of the nodelist segments they receive?

    I think the legitimacy is derived from the simple fact that at some point the current ZC1 will replace the 1:1/0-entry by something else, the ZONE1-segments produced by the new person in that position will by definition be valid.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Tue Jun 5 22:28:36 2018
    That does not answer the question: "why the secrecy?"

    why does the pope get selected like he does? you select your pope the way you want and we'll select our's the way we want...

    Bless you, my son. Now say an "Our Father" and three "Hail Mary"'s.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 6 00:42:35 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    Grown up democracies do not hold elections in secret. They allow
    observers from outside. So why the secret? What have you got to
    hide? Why are you so paranoid?


    To be blunt, and I say this with no malice intended, the election
    process in Z1 doesn't need the constant bickering and solicitation of
    MvdV> [..]
    spew the democracy card. It's getting old so just take your ball and
    go home. It's just that easy.

    MvdV> That does not answer the question: "why the secrecy?"

    It's their religion. The cardinals are in conclave, at their
    pristine chapel. Trying to find enough stuff to burn to make smoke.
    Black smoke means more huff and puff. White smoke means they found
    their new god(ess). But they would rather nobody sees their smoke,
    as that would mean their house is on fire.

    --Lee

    --
    Pork. The One You Love.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 6 00:42:47 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    Rumour has it

    MvdV> Yes, that is the problem with secrecy. It feeds the rumours...

    Works for Vladimir Putin. Honed his skills with secrecy. That
    is what earned him a black belt in judo (among other things).
    Everybody in Russia thinks he is Superman. Shows off his muscles
    to anyone and everyone. Drives fast cars. Scores multiple goals
    in hockey games. And also women. Oh, just look at the beautiful
    babes he scores with. And to think he is 65 years young, just
    getting started on a new term in office as President of Russia.

    Of course, knowing how much people love him, Putin never made
    anything secret. He went out and campaigned for the job, asking
    his loyal subjects to vote for him. And they responded by giving
    him 76% of the vote, leaving all his opponents in the dust.

    In the USA, it is possible for someone to get elected president
    with 20% of the vote. Donald Trump managed to get himself elected
    with 3 million fewer votes than his opponent got. He can go lower
    and still win, which should tell you something -

    Limbo is the American game.

    MvdV> How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    Because the newly elected ZC1 will say so. Just like Donald Trump.

    --Lee

    --
    Change Is Cumming

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Janis Kracht on Wed Jun 6 00:42:58 2018
    Hello Janis,

    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?
    Why should we know?

    So that our ZC and the other ZCs can make an informed decision about the
    legitimacy of the nodelist segments they receive?

    The election is not completed yet, or you would have heard about that :)

    May 21 Final List of candidates posted
    May 28 Voting begins
    June 10 Voting ends
    June 11 Results posted
    June 25 Final results announced
    June 29 New ZC appears in nodelist & begins work

    This is all according to The Rules of your scam election.

    It has already been revealed that of the first 16 votes
    received, 2 of those votes were very questionable.

    Imagine that. Counting votes before the polls close.
    Not really a novel idea, as tinhorn dictators have been
    known to do this as a matter of course.

    Count the votes you like as valid, dismiss those you find
    as not valid. All with the full blessing of the dictator-in-chief.

    The beancounter of your scam election is going to make absolutely
    sure the correct "winner" becomes the new ZC. Who is watching the
    beancounter count his beans? Who is watching the watchers? Oh.
    That's right. Trust the current ZC to keep everybody in line.

    This scam election was never advertised to all sysops in Zone 1.
    Even though it was supposedly open to all. But since only a very
    select few even knew about it, or where to go in order to vote,
    whose fault was that? Not that it matters, as the current Z1C
    was never interested in fair play. And neither is the incoming
    new Z1C, whoever that may be.

    --Lee

    --
    I Take A Sheet In The Pool

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 22:09:31 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Jun 04 2018 07:43 pm

    Fact is no ZC elections have been open to all.

    Wrong. I joined Fidonet as a point in 1992 and all the ZC2 elections since then took place in ENET.SYSOP which has alway been open for read by everyone. Including readers from other zones.

    Tht may be your experience. Personally I wouldn't have minded if this one was more open but it was not up to me. I would have limited it to people who are capable of control so as to not interupt the process. ZC probably.

    But that is just me and I had no input on this one. Enet.sysop was (?still is?) invite. I have one though Janis may not know of it so may have to ask Ward to send it over to her since Bob Seaborn died.

    I'd never EVER have posted anything in a Z2 election, or even anything from there that could be called into action by anyone there.

    xxcarol


    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Janis Kracht on Wed Jun 6 05:27:45 2018
    Dale Barnes mentioned to me that you _refused_ to print his article
    about his survey in Fidonews because you said "it is was no longer news due to it already being cross posted in several areas."

    In case you've missed it, the name of the publication is actually FidoNEWS.

    Trying to publish a text one week after it's already been posted all over Fidonet is not the way to go.

    He should first have published it and *then* he'd be free to cross post it wherever he'd like to. That's how all other contributers are doing it.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 5 13:05:29 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 05 2018 03:45 pm

    Yes, that is the problem with secrecy. It feeds the rumours...

    It's not really a secret. It's true that the Z1 sysops prefer to discuss and proceed with the election in a Z1 only echo but all of fidonet knows of the election.

    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    The mandate really comes from P4. If the RCs of Z1 felt that a new ZC was needed they would appoint one. Election or not.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al


    ... My spelling? Oh, it's just line noise.
    --- SBBSecho 3.05-Linux
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Carol Shenkenberger on Wed Jun 6 09:25:32 2018

    But that is just me and I had no input on this one. Enet.sysop was
    (?still is?) invite. I have one though Janis may not know of it so may
    have to ask Ward to send it over to her since Bob Seaborn died.

    I would say that everyone can have it but write-access only by permission. That
    is an honour-thing and everybody has lived up to it. All ZCs have write access by definition and Janis has used that privilege, often by my request, never abusing it. Such an honour-thing can work.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 7 00:25:26 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    Rumour has it

    MvdV> Yes, that is the problem with secrecy. It feeds the rumours...

    MvdV> How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    P4 tells them so.

    In order for an individual to become a sysop in Zone 1, he/she
    has to sign a loyalty oath to P4 -

    2.2 How to obtain a node number

    You must indicate that you have read, and agree to abide by,
    this document and all the current policies of FidoNet.

    That means honoring and obeying everything the Z1C says and does.
    He is their god, and none shall place false gods before him.

    Now do you understand?

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Alan Ianson on Thu Jun 7 00:25:48 2018
    Hello Alan,

    Is that "why" out of 297 listed sysops so far only 22 have voted?

    You seem to be better informed that I am but I'm still making my way
    through
    my new mail scan.

    So in order to be informed and know what to do 'when', you have to be
    linked to that echo. I count some 30 Z1-linked systems ... where's the
    other 90% ?

    I was first informed by my NC and I would hope that other nodes were informed
    by netmail as well.

    Why would Z1 sysops have to be informed by netmail about a election
    that they all had right to vote in? Oh. That's right. Only those
    Z1 sysops who were invited knew about it, and never bothered to tell
    anybody else.

    I can only guess why the number of voters is what it is, or will be. I
    hope
    that the sysops of Z1 will let their voices be heard but that is their choice.

    Ignorance is no excuse. It was their (Z1 sysops) business to know
    about the election. So they have only themselves to blame. Nobody
    else.

    I am sure the newly elected Z1C will thank those dozen or dozen
    and a half sysops who voted for him after the final results have
    been announced. Or at least after he has been sworn in.

    What heretics. Can't have their candidate win an openly contested
    election. Gotta keep it secret, and let others find out about it
    after the fact.

    Sysop1: "Let's have an election!"

    Sysop2: "Sounds like a great idea! When will it be?"

    Sysop1: "Last week."

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 7 00:25:53 2018
    Hello Ward,

    You seem to be better informed that I am but I'm still making my way
    through my new mail scan.

    It's called the "information age" ...8-)

    And if those who are not informed, who is to blame?
    An election, open to all, but only a select few invited
    to participate (at a secret location). And then claim
    "ignorance is no excuse" if somebody who did not vote
    complains.

    I can only guess why the number of voters is what it is, or will be. I
    hope that the sysops of Z1 will let their voices be heard but that is
    their choice.

    I don't know how it would work here.

    Rule by decree is the preferred method of dictators. Some with the
    dressings of democracy, others without. But it all amounts to the
    same thing. FidoNet is not a democracy, Nor was it ever intended
    to be. However, it is supposed to be a free association of sysops,
    not one where censorship is rampant.

    We have some regions with a still pretty active bunch of sysops.

    Most regions in zone 1 have little or no activity.

    Let me put it this way, we peaked at some time with over 35,000 nodes ..
    so
    let's just enjoy what we have left, while it still is there.

    And give up on recruiting new sysops? That would ensure the
    death of FidoNet for sure!

    Fidonet for me has been a tremendous learning opportunity and some of the developers have written some pretty exciting stuff that only some 1,000+ sysops know about. We have been privileged to be part of this enourmous social experiment under the guise of 'technology'. There are some pretty awesome people here ... JoHo, Alexey Vissarionov, Michael Dukelsky, Bob Bashe, Ulrich Schroeter, Janis, Dallas, Stass Degteff, Pavel Gulchouck, Roger, Michiel, the Bear, Nick Andre ... several more.

    FidoNet is a free association of sysops from around the world.
    There are too many sysops to be named, who have helped make FidoNet
    what it is today. Kudos to all FidoNetters, both past and present.
    Hopefully future ones as well.

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bjrn Felten on Thu Jun 7 00:26:09 2018
    Hello Bjrn,

    In Fidonet that should include our official news channel -- the
    Fidonews. But I haven't seen that happening.

    In addition to the above, I should of course mention the biannual FTSC elections, where the election coordinator posts information in the
    Fidonews
    about the election every week as the process is going on.

    Now, everyone who has the slightest knowledge of the Fidonet whereabouts know that Michiel van der Vlist is nothing like e.g. Phil Kimble (who doesn't even know the difference between seen-by lines and via lines).

    But just the same, the above proven difference speaks a lot of the difference between the democratic culture in zone 1 as opposed to that in the rest of the Fido world.

    Please, the few of you Z1 sysops that still read up in true international echoes, try to push forward your elected leaders so that they can join the rest of the democratic Fidonet world!

    The democratic Fidonet world?
    Only if Donald J. Trump gets elected International Zone Coordinator.
    If you think that will ever happen, keep dreaming.

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bjrn Felten on Thu Jun 7 00:26:14 2018
    Hello Bjrn,

    So in order to be informed and know what to do 'when', you have to be
    linked to that echo.

    In all grown up democracies such information is spread throughout every channel available.

    In Fidonet that should include our official news channel -- the Fidonews. But I haven't seen that happening.

    The Z1C election when Janis was elected had quite a lot of coverage in the Fidonews over several issues. But I guess that when the editor is from a piss-ant little Third World country in northern Europe, the Fidonews is
    not
    an option?

    They have the Fidogazette. Comes out once or twice a year.
    Or whenever the editor has time.

    --Lee

    --
    We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bjrn Felten on Thu Jun 7 00:26:29 2018
    Hello Bjrn,

    As they say, Bjorn, none of our business. All we can do is just sit
    back, relax and enjoy the show. Free entertainment ... who can be
    against that?

    Yeah, well, after that it's either business as usual or a perfectly new
    Fido
    world. At least the latter is what the rest of the outside Z1 world is wanting.

    But I'll not hold my breath just yet. When the result is not going the way the ruling class wants it to go, they'll always find a way to alter the result to their liking.

    Even after they failed to dismiss an opponent candidate based on the "evidence" posted by an idiot savant that didn't even know the difference between seen-by lines and via lines...

    Let's not be too harsh on them. They have monkey brains.

    --Lee

    --
    Big Or Small We Lay Them All

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bill McGarrity on Thu Jun 7 00:26:50 2018
    Hello Bill,

    So is #3 the only difference?

    Of course not. That's what the NAB huggers want you to believe.

    Why does this concern you so much.

    FidoNet is a free association of sysops from around the world.
    Free association, in this sense, means free of censorship in gaining
    access. Those who hinder access are diabolically opposed to this
    free association, as they are more interested in "kontrol" - a way
    to make themselves "superior" to their sysop brethren.

    Bjrn is more interested in preserving the concept of free
    association, which is what FidoNet was originally founded on,
    and is one reason why he is so revved up when it comes to
    promoting the FidoWeb.

    This free association is what has enabled communication to grow
    and for sysops from around the world to come together. Without it,
    FidoNet will flounder and die. Wither away, like dust in the wind.

    You are linked to me and as far as I can tell, a few others here in Z1
    that
    move all of the primary echos here on this side of the pond. The software
    I
    use does have the ability of using specific NA files as I see fit to pass along to specific links, in which you are one. You may have a different outlook with regard to the echos you distribute, which is fine as it's
    your
    system and with that being said, I should also be afforded the same consideration.

    Freedom of association is one thing. Free association another.
    Please do not let each term confuse you. Freedom of association
    is between individuals, as explained in another post. It can be
    collective, but is still not the same thing as free association.

    Free association is collective, especially as it pertains to
    all sysops around the world. Inclusive of those within zone 1.

    What you want is free association only within the small confines
    of your inner circle. All others are excluded. This is a far cry
    from "FidoNet is a free association of sysops from around the world"
    - which you claimed in a previous message that you agreed with.

    You can't have it both ways.

    The FidoWeb is such a wonder that no sane sysop wants to do without it.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bill McGarrity on Thu Jun 7 00:26:56 2018
    Hello Bill,

    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to
    vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    That is so in this election. The nodelist being the list of citizens.

    Is that "why" out of 297 listed sysops so far only 22 have voted?

    If you know this information, I guess it's not as 'secret' as most of Z2
    is
    complaining it is.

    Let's have an election. But not let anybody find out.
    Except those few sysops we choose to invite. And then,
    once it is all over, let the world know which of our
    choice candidates we decided on. If anybody complains,
    just tell them, "Ignorance is no excuse."

    Just stop it now.... it's very unbecoming of you Ward.

    22 votes, so far, with at least 2 of those votes being very
    questionable. By the official beancounter's own admission.
    Talk about a helluva scam election. Makes you want to cry.

    --Lee

    --
    We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 7 00:27:08 2018
    Hello mark,

    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    how can they not? policy defines it, right? ;)

    Where does any FidoNet policy document define "mandate"?

    To date, a grand total of 22 votes have been cast in the scam
    election for Z1C, with at least 2 of those votes being very
    questionable (according to the official beancounter). That
    is one helluva "mandate" - out of 297 sysops (including dead
    wood) in Zone 1.

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 6 21:36:19 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to mark lewis on Mon Jun 04 2018 07:59 pm

    As to Fidoweb, not sure what it is but pretty sure it's something
    Z1 isnt all that worried about with Z1C candidates.

    all it is is multi-linking your echos between two or more systems
    and specifically setting up dupe loops... the main ideas being

    0. Break the Fidonews blokkade set up by the NAB.

    ???? The NAB has nothing to do with mail movers in any way. People can still contribute to it from any place world wide.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Bjrn Felten on Wed Jun 6 21:55:55 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Bjrn Felten to Carol Shenkenberger on Tue Jun 05 2018 04:15 am

    So is #3 the only difference?

    Of course not. That's what the NAB huggers want you to believe.

    Then explain it again as that is all your earlier explaination showed.
    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 6 22:23:47 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Bjrn Felten on Tue Jun 05 2018 03:45 pm

    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    Done by being listed in the nodeist as of the date selected. It was a close date to the start of things.

    Rumour has it

    Yes, that is the problem with secrecy. It feeds the rumours...

    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    Because the RC's setup the system for the election and went as common HERE, with a sysop wide vote.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 7 06:54:58 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Carol Shenkenberger on Monday June 04 2018 at 19:43:

    Fact is no ZC elections have been open to all.

    Wrong. I joined Fidonet as a point in 1992 and all the ZC2 elections
    since then took place in ENET.SYSOP which has alway been open for read
    by everyone. Including readers from other zones.

    You're getting hyped up on semantics. Carol said that not everyone could vote in ZC elestions, which is true in Z2 as well as Z1.

    You took her to mean that elections were kept secret and not openly discussed, which is not what she meant, at least to my way of thinking.

    And in any case, all this ranting about Z1 elections by Z2 nodes is a little hypocritical, as we ourselves have not had a ZC election for the longest time. Not that I think that would be necessary, except for cosmetic reasons, but it's
    still a fact.

    So come down a peg and let bygones be bygones - Z1 is going to do what it thinks right regardless of what you or anyone else in Z2 think "should" be done.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 7 07:06:42 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Alan Ianson on Tuesday June 05 2018 at 00:36:


    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    That is so in this election. The nodelist being the list of citizens.

    Is that "why" out of 297 listed sysops so far only 22 have voted?

    How many have voted in the recent Z2C election? "What Z2C election"???

    C'mon Ward... keep things reasonable and don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house.

    When and if you decide to call a Z2C election - which I personally don't need -
    then I hope you won't object to Z1 sysops ranting about your "dictatorship" as some Z2 nodes are now doing with regard to the Z1C election. Seems to me the current affair is strictly Z1's business.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Thu Jun 7 08:28:59 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Thursday June 07 2018 06:54, you wrote to me:

    And in any case, all this ranting about Z1 elections by Z2 nodes is a little hypocritical, as we ourselves have not had a ZC election for
    the longest time. Not that I think that would be necessary,

    I beg to differ. A ZC2 election is long overdue.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 7 12:31:12 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Thursday June 07 2018 at 08:28:

    And in any case, all this ranting about Z1 elections by Z2 nodes is a
    little hypocritical, as we ourselves have not had a ZC election for
    the longest time. Not that I think that would be necessary,

    I beg to differ. A ZC2 election is long overdue.

    So go to it. I have not seen any ground swell of nodes asking for a Z2C election, but maybe your sources of information are better than mine.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jun 7 09:33:00 2018
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Bill McGarrity on 06-07-18 00:26 <=-


    So is #3 the only difference?

    Of course not. That's what the NAB huggers want you to believe.

    Why does this concern you so much.

    FidoNet is a free association of sysops from around the world.
    Free association, in this sense, means free of censorship in gaining access. Those who hinder access are diabolically opposed to this
    free association, as they are more interested in "kontrol" - a way
    to make themselves "superior" to their sysop brethren.

    Bjrn is more interested in preserving the concept of free
    association, which is what FidoNet was originally founded on,
    and is one reason why he is so revved up when it comes to
    promoting the FidoWeb.

    This free association is what has enabled communication to grow
    and for sysops from around the world to come together. Without it, FidoNet will flounder and die. Wither away, like dust in the wind.

    Sometimes I think you like to hear yourself talk.

    Quick question, am I not part of the Fidoweb you speak of? Do Bjrn and I not exchange mail at the consequence of each system dealing with rather high dupes?




    You are linked to me and as far as I can tell, a few others here in Z1
    that
    move all of the primary echos here on this side of the pond. The software
    I
    use does have the ability of using specific NA files as I see fit to pass along to specific links, in which you are one. You may have a different outlook with regard to the echos you distribute, which is fine as it's
    your
    system and with that being said, I should also be afforded the same consideration.

    Freedom of association is one thing. Free association another.
    Please do not let each term confuse you. Freedom of association
    is between individuals, as explained in another post. It can be collective, but is still not the same thing as free association.

    Free association is collective, especially as it pertains to
    all sysops around the world. Inclusive of those within zone 1.

    What you want is free association only within the small confines
    of your inner circle. All others are excluded. This is a far cry
    from "FidoNet is a free association of sysops from around the world"
    - which you claimed in a previous message that you agreed with.

    You can't have it both ways.

    The FidoWeb is such a wonder that no sane sysop wants to do without it.

    Jesus, you're getting like Trump. Lee, Fidonet AND the Fidoweb is not your own little playground to sit and complaing when you have no skin in the game. You want change, get a node #. It's very easy.


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jun 7 09:35:00 2018
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Bill McGarrity on 06-07-18 00:26 <=-


    Also, in grown up democracies you don't have to register to be
    allowed to
    vote, you only have to be in the list of citizens.

    That is so in this election. The nodelist being the list of citizens.

    Is that "why" out of 297 listed sysops so far only 22 have voted?

    If you know this information, I guess it's not as 'secret' as most of Z2
    is
    complaining it is.

    Let's have an election. But not let anybody find out.
    Except those few sysops we choose to invite. And then,
    once it is all over, let the world know which of our
    choice candidates we decided on. If anybody complains,
    just tell them, "Ignorance is no excuse."

    Just stop it now.... it's very unbecoming of you Ward.

    22 votes, so far, with at least 2 of those votes being very
    questionable. By the official beancounter's own admission.
    Talk about a helluva scam election. Makes you want to cry.

    Broken record here. Please, play something from the late 60's or early 70's.


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 7 18:01:36 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Tuesday June 05 2018 13:07, you wrote to me:

    That does not answer the question: "why the secrecy?"

    why does the pope get selected like he does? you select your pope the
    way you want and we'll select our's the way we want...

    I have been told the Pope is the representative of God on earth. I have rejected that "item of education" as bovine excrement.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to mark lewis on Thu Jun 7 18:11:29 2018
    Hello mark,

    On Tuesday June 05 2018 13:10, you wrote to me:

    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    how can they not? policy defines it, right? ;)

    P4 is pretty clear on many things. But some items border on mysticism. The RCs are appointed by the ZC. The Zc is selected by the RCs.

    How that item of circularity defines a mandate is a mystery to me.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Ward Dossche on Thu Jun 7 18:35:39 2018
    Hello Ward,

    On Tuesday June 05 2018 22:25, you wrote to me:

    So that our ZC and the other ZCs can make an informed decision
    about the legitimacy of the nodelist segments they receive?

    I think the legitimacy is derived from the simple fact that at some
    point the current ZC1 will replace the 1:1/0-entry by something else,
    the ZONE1-segments produced by the new person in that position will by definition be valid.

    That is what one would expect if the outgoing ZC selects/appoints his/her successor. But that is not the case isn't it?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Fri Jun 8 09:25:42 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Thursday June 07 2018 12:31, you wrote to me:

    And in any case, all this ranting about Z1 elections by Z2 nodes is
    a little hypocritical, as we ourselves have not had a ZC election
    for the longest time. Not that I think that would be necessary,

    I beg to differ. A ZC2 election is long overdue.

    I have not seen any ground swell of nodes asking for a Z2C election,
    but maybe your sources of information are better than mine.

    It is my personal opinion. For which I may or may not gain support some day.

    So go to it.

    At the moment my hands are tied. When they are untied, "go to it" may or may not be on my list of priorities...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 8 06:42:58 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Robert Bashe on Fri Jun 08 2018 09:25 am

    a little hypocritical, as we ourselves have not had a ZC election
    for the longest time. Not that I think that would be necessary,

    I beg to differ. A ZC2 election is long overdue.

    I have not seen any ground swell of nodes asking for a Z2C election,
    but maybe your sources of information are better than mine.

    For what it's worth, in Z1, Janis put up a straw poll asking if the Z1RCs wanted a change in ZC a couple of years ago, and support was unanimous for Janis. I believe we were labeled as ZC "lackeys" for doing so by the Usual Suspects.
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Fri Jun 8 18:53:58 2018

    On 2018 Jun 07 07:06:42, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    When and if you decide to call a Z2C election

    since the ZC is appointed by the RCs, it would seem possible that the sysops and NCs of Z2 could cause the RCs of Z2 to hold a ZC selection...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I have an electric knife. The turkey is unarmed. I will eventually win.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Fri Jun 8 18:56:46 2018

    On 2018 Jun 07 12:31:12, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    And in any case, all this ranting about Z1 elections by Z2 nodes is
    a little hypocritical, as we ourselves have not had a ZC election
    for the longest time. Not that I think that would be necessary,

    I beg to differ. A ZC2 election is long overdue.

    So go to it. I have not seen any ground swell of nodes asking for a
    Z2C election, but maybe your sources of information are better than
    mine.

    it could be that a number of folk are thinking it but no one is willing to start talking about it... no talk, no group... no group, no swell... no swell, no movement...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... It ain't a trend until you've seen it twice.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 8 19:18:48 2018

    On 2018 Jun 07 18:01:36, you wrote to me:

    That does not answer the question: "why the secrecy?"

    why does the pope get selected like he does? you select your pope the
    way you want and we'll select our's the way we want...

    I have been told the Pope is the representative of God on earth. I
    have rejected that "item of education" as bovine excrement.

    you'll learn the undeniable truth one day...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Drag me, drop me. Treat me like an object.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Jun 8 19:19:46 2018

    On 2018 Jun 07 18:11:28, you wrote to me:

    How do we know that the newly elected ZC1 has a proper mandate?

    how can they not? policy defines it, right? ;)

    P4 is pretty clear on many things. But some items border on mysticism. The RCs are appointed by the ZC. The Zc is selected by the RCs.

    How that item of circularity defines a mandate is a mystery to me.

    that's not the mandate of the ZC and you know it... keep reading the document... you'll figure it out one day...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... A bird in the hand is the best way to eat chicken.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Robert Bashe on Sat Jun 9 19:03:23 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Robert Bashe to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 07 2018 06:54 am

    Fact is no ZC elections have been open to all.

    Wrong. I joined Fidonet as a point in 1992 and all the ZC2 elections
    since then took place in ENET.SYSOP which has alway been open for
    read by everyone. Including readers from other zones.

    You're getting hyped up on semantics. Carol said that not everyone could vote in ZC elestions, which is true in Z2 as well as Z1.

    Correct. In Z6 people outside the zone were allowed to read. but not interfere.

    Miehael wanted to interfere.

    Now posts made here? Thats just normal curiosity and to be exepected.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Jun 10 08:48:38 2018
    Hello Carol,

    On Saturday June 09 2018 19:03, you wrote to Robert Bashe:

    Correct. In Z6 people outside the zone were allowed to read. but not interfere.

    Miehael wanted to interfere.

    Are you clearvoyant? Do you always know what other people want?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 11 09:25:26 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Carol Shenkenberger on Sunday June 10 2018 at

    Correct. In Z6 people outside the zone were allowed to read. but not
    interfere.

    Miehael wanted to interfere.

    Are you clearvoyant? Do you always know what other people want?

    All we can go by is what you or anyone else writes. If you want to clarify a position, please do so. Unfortunately, we can't see faces or judge attitudes in
    written communications.

    That, by the way, is the reason diplomatic communications are generally so general and peaceful on the surface.

    "I find your remarks astounding", for example, means in diplomatese "You're full of shit". ;-))

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Robert Bashe on Mon Jun 11 18:18:28 2018
    Hello Robert!

    11 Jun 18 09:25, Robert Bashe wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:


    "I find your remarks astounding", for example, means in diplomatese "You're full of shit". ;-))

    Angela Merkel just said the G7 summit's outcome was "ernchternd und deprimierend"...


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 6:18PM up 155 days, 20:11, 9 users, load averages: 0.14, 0.16, 0.11

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: Dry thoughts for the tenant (2:240/12)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Robert Bashe on Mon Jun 11 22:23:40 2018
    Re: The Z1C election
    By: Robert Bashe to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Jun 07 2018 06:54 am

    You took her to mean that elections were kept secret and not openly discussed, which is not what she meant, at least to my way of thinking. And in any case, all this ranting about Z1 elections by Z2 nodes is a little hypocritical, as we ourselves have not had a ZC election for the longest time. Not that I think that would be necessary, except for cosmetic reasons, but it's still a fact.

    So come down a peg and let bygones be bygones - Z1 is going to do what it thinks right regardless of what you or anyone else in Z2 think "should" be
    done.

    Thank you.

    We are now seeing if there ae any objectons. I doubt there will be. The numbers were large enough that while respectible for both candidates, they spread far enough that no upset is likely.

    Our universal feeling is that there was no 'bad' between candidates of Dallas Hinton and Nick Andre. We had 2 winners no matter how it went.

    With the distraction of a few here (understandably curious for the most part) the election cane over as very clean with no denigration between candidates.

    I think it is ok to say we are happy with the results. They will be announced offically later by the ones appointed for that.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS (1:275/100)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Gerrit Kuehn on Tue Jun 12 07:33:56 2018
    Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday June 11 2018 at 18:18:

    "I find your remarks astounding", for example, means in diplomatese
    "You're full of shit". ;-))

    Angela Merkel just said the G7 summit's outcome was "ernchternd und deprimierend"...

    Which gives you an indication of how angry she really is.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Tue Jun 12 09:41:48 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Monday June 11 2018 09:25, you wrote to me:

    Miehael wanted to interfere.

    Are you clearvoyant? Do you always know what other people want?

    All we can go by is what you or anyone else writes. If you want to
    clarify a position, please do so.

    I have no need to clarify. My comment to Carol was merely rethoric. I do not expect her to come up with an answer that makes sense.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 12 13:25:50 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday June 12 2018 at 09:41:

    Miehael wanted to interfere.

    Are you clearvoyant? Do you always know what other people want?

    All we can go by is what you or anyone else writes. If you want to
    clarify a position, please do so.

    I have no need to clarify. My comment to Carol was merely rethoric. I
    do not expect her to come up with an answer that makes sense.

    You really _do_ know how to "make friends and influence people", don't you?;-/

    But it might help to use smileys if you are throwing out a "rhetorical" and for
    outsiders (without the smiley) insulting remark.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Tue Jun 12 15:52:02 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Tuesday June 12 2018 13:25, you wrote to me:

    All we can go by is what you or anyone else writes. If you want
    to clarify a position, please do so.

    I have no need to clarify. My comment to Carol was merely
    rethoric. I do not expect her to come up with an answer that makes
    sense.

    You really _do_ know how to "make friends and influence people", don't you?;-/

    I do? Carol accused me of wanting to interfere. And then you ask /ME/ to clarify?

    But it might help to use smileys if you are throwing out a
    "rhetorical" and for outsiders (without the smiley) insulting remark.

    I didn't see a smiley after Carol's accusation. Bob, I /can/ make friends but it takes effort and so I reserve that for those who deserve it. I have no desire to be friends with everyone. Carol and I are not friends and we will probably never be. I am tired of turning the other cheeck.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 12 18:36:04 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday June 12 2018 at 15:52:

    I have no need to clarify. My comment to Carol was merely rethoric.
    I do not expect her to come up with an answer that makes sense.

    You really _do_ know how to "make friends and influence people",
    don't you?;-/

    I do? Carol accused me of wanting to interfere. And then you ask /ME/
    to clarify?

    Sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't understand scarcasm. And if Carol wrote that - based on what you've written, I think she was perfectly right.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Wed Jun 13 09:37:12 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Tuesday June 12 2018 18:36, you wrote to me:

    I do? Carol accused me of wanting to interfere. And then you ask
    /ME/ to clarify?

    Sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't understand scarcasm.

    === quote ===

    All we can go by is what you or anyone else writes. If you want to
    clarify a position, please do so. Unfortunately, we can't see faces or judge attitudes in written communications.

    === /quote ===

    And if Carol wrote that - based on what you've written, I think she
    was perfectly right.

    So you repeat the accusation - without explanation - and you still want /ME/ to clarify?!


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Jun 13 11:21:18 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Wednesday June 13 2018 at 09:37:

    I do? Carol accused me of wanting to interfere. And then you ask
    /ME/ to clarify?

    Sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't understand scarcasm.

    === quote ===

    All we can go by is what you or anyone else writes. If you want
    to clarify a position, please do so. Unfortunately, we can't see
    faces or judge attitudes in written communications.

    === /quote ===

    You really are vying for the world championship in fido nitpicking, aren't you?

    And if Carol wrote that - based on what you've written, I think she
    was perfectly right.

    So you repeat the accusation - without explanation - and you still
    want /ME/ to clarify?!

    No accusation, just a reasonable statement based on statements she and you have
    made. You don't seem to realize that aggression does not lead to a reasonable discussion - and wild claims are not taken at face value in fido or anywhere else.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)