• What if USA had stayed home after WWII?

    From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Fri May 4 11:44:44 2018
    Germany: united by popular opinion. Vietnam: united by conquest by the north. Korea: not united because South Korea doesn't want famine as in
    the north, Palestine: united? You must be kidding.

    And all over this lies US military intervention like a wet blanket.

    In Fidonet we often indulge in the What If scenario.

    One of those, that I would love to explore, if I had a time machine, is how the world would look like today if USA had went back to their pre WWII policy of staying at home, after the war ended.

    http://tinyurl.com/y7cw49jg

    Of course you will argue that we would all speak Russian now, but I actually
    think that the entire Cold War was deliberately created by the USA. Smuggling out Hitler's master spy (Reinhard Gehlen) and using him as the sole source of information about the Soviet Union was a major mistake.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Gehlen

    Pretty much like when they used an Iraqi defector as the main source of information about Saddam's alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction. Some people will say anything to get an advantage of any kind...




    ..

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  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Fri May 4 16:10:26 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Robert Bashe on Friday May 04 2018 at 11:44:

    Of course you will argue that we would all speak Russian now, but I actually think that the entire Cold War was deliberately created by
    the USA...

    Sure. But it "takes two to tango". And what about the USSR? And Rad China? No victor without an opponent.

    It's easy to point the finger, but hard to demonstrate that any one party fights...nothing. With no reason.

    Cheers, Bob

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Sat May 5 02:15:23 2018
    Hello Bob,

    Of course you will argue that we would all speak Russian now, but I
    actually think that the entire Cold War was deliberately created by
    the USA...

    Sure. But it "takes two to tango". And what about the USSR? And Rad China? No victor without an opponent.

    The US and former USSR were allies during WWII. That war ended
    in 1945. The Cold War did not begin until 1947. China did not turn
    red until 1949. The Cold War ended in 1989. Russia, and China,
    became our friends. Just like Germany and Japan, along with Italy
    had done.

    It's easy to point the finger, but hard to demonstrate that any one party fights...nothing. With no reason.

    Many historians today are beginning to realize that FDR and Stalin
    may have had a personal friendship, aside from being politicians.
    Some believe that FDR had intended to share atomic secrets with
    Stalin in order to make this world a safer place. But his death in
    April of 1945 precluded that from happening, and Truman had a much
    different vision he wished to pursue.

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 6 03:27:49 2018
    Sure. But it "takes two to tango". And what about the USSR? And Rad
    China? No victor without an opponent.

    You are too short-sighted, Robert!

    Let my just say that I truly loved the USA as a "concept" up until 2001 and all the Patriot Act shit and similar that GWB was forced to enact by the Military Industrial Complex expected from him in return for buying him the POTUS crown. That's after 11/9 in the notation that the 96% of us non-USAians are using.

    For three decades I travelled the world servicing Scandinavian ships stranded in ports all over our globe where my invented Motorola 6800 based control system didn't work properly (more often than not operator error).

    But after GWB I've reclined to help out any Scandinavian ship stranded at any port of the USA. This until y'all get rid if this incredibly stupid "war on
    terrorism".

    Yet another US instigated war with not even an exit strategy -- Korea, Vietnam, Drugs, Terror -- you name it, there's not a single war that the USA has started that even have a theoretical chance of winning. With no exit strategy, how do you know that you have won in the end?

    ..

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  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Bj?rn Felten on Sun May 6 00:29:02 2018
    Sir,

    While I have admired some of your comments over the past 10+ years, I have to inject into this thread. As a retired US Army guy, who has traveled the world for the past 3 decades to places that most have never heard of & some no longer
    exist, I am very proud of what the United States does, even if sometimes I find myself at odds with it. Stay on your couch, keep your people at home milking goats, but please dont talk down on the people doing the dirty work.

    Let my just say that I truly loved the USA as a "concept" up until 2001 and all the Patriot Act shit and similar that GWB was forced to enact by the Military Industrial Complex expected from him in return
    for buying him the POTUS crown. That's after 11/9 in the notation
    that the 96% of us non-USAians are using.

    Please keep in mind, that the USA was attacked which was the "offical" begining
    of GWOT. Before that the world was plaqued with rogue terriorist organizations. It wasnt the USA that hijacked airplanes, ships at sea, etc... I
    guess we forget how badly the UN wanted to rid of Saddam but was also looking at the growing threat of "unwanted" organizations building in Afghanistan & northern Africa.

    Now look at Europe with the influx of your Muslim countrymen who will soon be making laws that you must live by. I believe yoru culture & very way of life is
    being threated. What are you doing about it?

    Let me think back to when your country was last attacked & what your country did to resolve the problem. As much as I really do love Europe and the different countries, other then a few choice captials, you guys are a bunch of cowardly sissy-boys. Another case of Pied Piper. Cant solve your own problems but curse the people who do.

    But after GWB I've reclined to help out any Scandinavian ship
    stranded at any port of the USA. This until y'all get rid if this incredibly stupid "war on terrorism".

    Thats cool becuase us Americans enjoy watching Vikings on TV & would hate for you to screw up our bloated good feelings about your countrymen. But it is a shame to read about the current state of affairs in the "Nordic Model".

    Yet another US instigated war with not even an exit strategy --
    Korea, Vietnam, Drugs, Terror -- you name it, there's not a single
    war that the USA has started that even have a theoretical chance of winning. With no exit strategy, how do you know that you have won in
    the end?

    Nope, 9/11 was an attack on American soil. But once again, all are excellant examples of European failures where United States was called on by the UN to assist. Face it, the USA has lost more lives over the course of history due to European problems. I am not claiming the the USA is perfect & always does the right thing, by any means. But how can anyone talk smack about a culture of people that stops worrying about thier issues to go & save your country's ass from war? Or do the UN's dirty work? I vote the USA pulls out of the UN & let you cowards handle the issues for a while. After all, we saw your comptenace at work in Africa, Bosnia, the Balkans, Korea, Vietnam, and a few other locations. I think this is where Amerucans coined the phrase, "Shut the fuc$ up
    & sit down"!

    As history clearly highlights, the only thing Europe is good at is killig thier
    neighbors, starting wars, or turning a blind eye to the problem in hopes it passes them by. What happened to that Viking spirit?

    Just my 2 cents!

    Phil

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  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Phil Kimble on Sun May 6 10:50:04 2018
    Phil Kimble wrote to Bj?rn Felten on Sunday May 06 2018 at 00:29:

    Let me think back to when your country was last attacked & what your country did to resolve the problem. As much as I really do love Europe
    and the different countries, other then a few choice captials, you
    guys are a bunch of cowardly sissy-boys. Another case of Pied Piper.
    Cant solve your own problems but curse the people who do.

    The sentiments are expressed pretty bitingly, but I think there's a certain amount of justice to them. However, you should also realize that Europeans have
    become very sensitive to the thought of wars, and want peace at nearly any price despite the lessons of history (Neville Caimberlain). Unfortunately, that
    tends to blind them to necessary conflicts in critical situations. I don't see any answer to this except to be patient and hope for a change in attitude that favors peace, but is ready for self defense, and the defense of allies.

    After all, we saw your comptenace at work in Africa, Bosnia, the
    Balkans, Korea, Vietnam, and a few other locations.

    Phil, I felt much the same during the Balkan wars, where everybody here was wringing their hands, but only the Americans finally intervened (without UN authorization) to save lives. It was a trying time. Nothing against the anti-war faction, but there are times when people have to stand up and be counted.

    Cheers, Bob

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Phil Kimble on Sun May 6 11:16:56 2018
    Hello Phil,

    On Sunday May 06 2018 00:29, you wrote to Bj?rn Felten:

    you guys are a bunch of cowardly sissy-boys.

    As in "Euro trash pacifist pig shit pussy"? Or "pissant little country"?

    We'v heard that before. :(

    Yankee go home and take your nukes stored in De Peel with you.


    Cheers, Michiel

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  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon May 7 11:54:48 2018
    Hi Michiel,

    No, I would never be that disrespectful but I can certainly see a time when such hatered would be fitting.

    MvdV> On Sunday May 06 2018 00:29, you wrote to Bj?rn Felten:
    you guys are a bunch of cowardly sissy-boys.
    When countries claim to be neutral, support the criminals, make double-sided deals & backstab both at first opportunity, and then cry for help, I tend to lose respect for those crying foul...

    But that was 50+ years ago. The point is, if not for the major European wars, United Nations, League of Nations, the USA would have never become involved in any of these conflicts. So lets pull the USA out of all areas and see how long before neighbors start killing each other, again. The only war USA ever started
    was the Civil War and the only country will to assist was France.

    MvdV> As in "Euro trash pacifist pig shit pussy"? Or "pissant little
    MvdV> country"?

    I actually love the pissant little countries. I often say that I would love to retire to either Luxembourg or Liechtenstien
    .
    MvdV> We'v heard that before. :(
    For that I apologize. You have to admit, that all of this "your country sucks" gets a bit too much & as a person that has been one of those soldiers, in the mud, without family, I just get a little pissed over it all. We can spend countless hours criticizing but not 5 minutes thanking your neighbor.

    In fact, a lot of my older German friends claim that they would rather turn the
    clocks back to the days of American soldiers & nukes. What did they say, "Build the wall back but this time 10 meters higher". Sure there were problems,
    but what do we have these days? More problems than before. And it snot isolated, these are global problems - drugs, terrioism, chemical weapons, the Middle East. But who is trying to address it at the global levels? Face-to-face? What do we have from the northern Scandinavian Model?

    MvdV> Yankee go home and take your nukes stored in De Peel with you.
    Ah, the Good Old Days! But those nukes kept Russia out, didnt they? So, again, if the USA had left & pulled the nukes out??? You are welcome!

    MvdV> Cheers, Michiel
    Take care my friend.

    Phil

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Phil Kimble on Tue May 8 00:21:11 2018
    Hello Phil,

    On Monday May 07 2018 11:54, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Yankee go home and take your nukes stored in De Peel with you.

    Ah, the Good Old Days! But those nukes kept Russia out, didnt they?

    They did? Well, it reminds me of a conversation I once overheard in the train. There was a guy throwing a yellowish powder out of the window. The guy next to him asked what the yellowish powder was and he said: "it is pili-pili powder, it keeps elephants away.

    But there are no elephants here in The Netherlands!

    See, it is working!

    I think this whole idea that the USSR was out to invade Western Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    So, again, if the USA had left & pulled the nukes out???

    Those nukes should never have been there in the first place. It was the USA that started the nuclear arms race. If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have happened. No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have
    been part of the EU by now.


    Cheers, Michiel

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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue May 8 01:40:10 2018
    MvdV> I think this whole idea that the USSR was out to invade Western Europe
    MvdV> was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    Of course it was. Or, misunderstanding is something of an understatement. As
    I explained in a previous posting it was entirely based on the CIA and Gehlen unholy cooperation.

    All USSR wanted after WWII was to recuperate after the war, licking their wounds and rebuilding their devastated country. But Reinhard Gehlen was dead set to prove his importance and fed CIA with loads of lies and they trusted him.

    Needless to say, the USSR had to react at some point. And of course the US MIC prospered ever since. Just as IKE warned them about in his Farewell Address
    to the Nation on January 17, 1961.


    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Phil Kimble on Tue May 8 02:00:07 2018
    Ah, the Good Old Days! But those nukes kept Russia out, didnt they? So, again, if the USA had left & pulled the nukes out??? You are welcome!

    Then the USSR would never had to join your arms race. They only did that because they (rightfully) regarded the USA as a threat to them.

    I can only once again say that I fully agree with Dwight D Eisenhower:

    "We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted.

    Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defence with our peaceful methods
    and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."

    http://tinyurl.com/yaxqau9e






    ..

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  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon May 7 23:17:30 2018
    Ok Michiel, I will play this out.


    MvdV> On Monday May 07 2018 11:54, you wrote to me:
    MvdV>>> Yankee go home and take your nukes stored in De Peel with you.
    Ah, the Good Old Days! But those nukes kept Russia out, didnt they?

    MvdV> They did? Well, it reminds me of a conversation I once overheard in
    MvdV> the train. There was a guy throwing a yellowish powder out of the
    MvdV> window. The guy next to him asked what the yellowish powder was and
    MvdV> he said: "it is pili-pili powder, it keeps elephants away.
    MvdV> But there are no elephants here in The Netherlands!
    MvdV> See, it is working!
    I like this, but it demonstates the narrow mindedness of the EU, "it wont happen to us"...

    MvdV> I think this whole idea that the USSR was out to invade Western
    MvdV> Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.
    Answer this question, who was going to get rid of the German war machine? Germany had occupied the European region, & had they not attacked Russia, USSR might not have been involved, but they were so they responded. Germany occupied
    almost all of Europe by the time the USA became involved. It was a global threat that the European countries, League of Nations, could do anything about.
    So much for Neutrality - feed them what they want & maybe they will leave us alone. How well did that work?

    So, again, if the USA had left & pulled the nukes out???
    I think we should have stayed completely out of it. It was a European problem, let them resolve it. But after demonstrated inability to defend itself, I believe it was England, Canida, & the USA that invaded France to drive the German war machine back. Is this part correct in the European eyes or did North
    Korea do this? Where was the Arab Nations? Where was the Great Scanidanivian GodSend? Nope, you called on th Pied Piper and now 60+ years later you are crying foul? Isnt that what your Dutch women cried as your countrymen drug them
    through the streets in disgrace?

    Another misunderstanding, right? But I digress becuase we are talking about how
    bad the USA is.

    MvdV> Those nukes should never have been there in the first place. It was
    MvdV> the USA that started the nuclear arms race. If the USA had just
    MvdV> left after WWII, nothing would have happened. No cold war, no
    MvdV> Berlin wall, and Russia might have been part of the EU by now.
    I agree, we should never had the A-Bomb, nukes in Europe, should have never attacked Japan, never experienced D-Day, Paris Accord should have never been held, never invaded Grenda, Panama, Bosnia, stepped into Kosovo, atatcked Serbia, but it was becuase at the time it was needed to free the world of Occupation & reliving WWI. In other words, we saved your ass & now you complain
    about the mess. That is very weak!

    Phil

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  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue May 8 11:15:58 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Phil Kimble on Tuesday May 08 2018 at 00:21:

    Those nukes should never have been there in the first place. It was
    the USA that started the nuclear arms race.

    Sure...

    ..,If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have happened.
    No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have been part of the EU
    by now.

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of continental Europe.

    Cheers, Bob

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Robert Bashe on Tue May 8 20:02:51 2018
    On 8/05/2018 7:15 PM, Robert Bashe -> Michiel van der Vlist wrote:

    ..,If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have happened.
    No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have been part of the EU
    by now.

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of continental Europe.

    Is that any harder to speak than German?

    --

    Regards
    David

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Phil Kimble on Tue May 8 12:59:57 2018
    Hi Phil,

    It is remarcable, that the same nonsense is again regurgitated by a US partner.
    OK ... here it goes:

    I like this, but it demonstates the narrow mindedness of the EU, "it wont happen to us"...

    The EU-model, let's call it that way, is that within its territory no wars have
    errupted anymore since WW2 ... 73 years of uninterrupted peace. The idea was fantastic ... create economic ties between former foes, get them involved in doing business with eachother rather than fight ... less people killed, less societies to rebuild, enhanced standard of living. Look, it worked ... and to reach that point the EU didn't need a gigantic army which fueled a gigantic industrial war complex which in itself masks immense US unemployment figures. Young people here do not need to get into the military because these are the only jobs available and the only way to get through college ... They do not have to do that because of the EU-model. It works.

    Answer this question, who was going to get rid of the German war machine?

    Germany had occupied the European region, & had they not attacked Russia, USSR might not have been involved, but they were so they responded.
    Germany occupied almost all of Europe by the time the USA became
    involved.

    Hardly.

    The Battle of Britain had terminated and been won by the British by September of 1940.

    The real turning point of the war in Europe, the Battle of Stalingrad, had concluded about early February 1943 and the Germans were already running in the
    other direction.

    No Americans anywhere in sight.

    So much for Neutrality - feed them what they want & maybe they will
    leave us alone. How well did that work?

    It is interesting reading to study the actions of embassador Kennedy, JFK's dad, when he went cordially visiting the Nazi leadership...

    I believe it was England, Canida, & the USA that invaded France to drive the German war machine back. Is this part correct in the European eyes
    or did North Korea do this? Where was the Arab Nations? Where was the
    Great Scanidanivian GodSend?

    It were those countries plus Australia, New Zealand, Belgium, Poland, the Netherlands, Norway which also invaded. But that was June 6th 1944 and without the effort of the French resistance at high cost, that invasion would have failed.

    So it's not just England, Canada and the US.

    You probably are not aware at the role Sweden played in operation Rheinubung which led to the destruction of the Bismarck. Or the massive saving of thousands and thousands of Jews by the Swedes ... which leads me to the refusal
    of the 8th US air force to bomb the railway lines leading to Auschwitz-Birkenau
    and stop that part of the Holocaust, which was already known by then, because it kept valuable locomotives and trains away from shipping military equipment at an estimated cost of 1.2 million Jews.

    But just as a reminder, by June 6th 1944:

    * the Luftwaffe was already largely reduced to scrap, it was not the attack
    force it used to be once
    * Britain had won the Battle of Britain
    * Britain had won the Battle of the Atlantic reducing the whole German
    surface fleet to exactly a single heavy unit (Prinz Eugen)
    * Britain had already decisively beaten Rommel in North Africa
    * In the east the Germans had retreated already about a thousand miles and
    the Soviets liberated most of their former territory.
    * The Brits had deciphered Naval Enigma (not Air nor Army, which were
    different)

    By June 1944, Germany had zero chance of winning the war. The Soviets were on the offensive after kicking the Nazis out of Russia and Ukraine.

    Without D-Day, Germany would still lose the war, but perhaps slightly later than the original timeline. Without D-Day, the Soviets would continue their offensive from the East, and the Western Powers would continue to advance from the south, in Italy. They could also invade Southern France as they did in August 1944.

    Isnt that what your Dutch women cried as your countrymen
    drug them through the streets in disgrace?

    In 1994 when 50 years of liberation was celebrated in the Netherlands and vets paraded down the streets, there were many signs by 44yr old Dutch men and women
    reading "Are you my father?" because the Americans not only fought themselves to Germany, they fucked them there as well for a pack of cigarettes or chocolate.

    I agree, we should never had the A-Bomb, nukes in Europe, should have
    never attacked Japan, never experienced D-Day, Paris Accord should have never been held, never invaded Grenda, Panama, Bosnia, stepped into
    Kosovo, atatcked Serbia, but it was becuase at the time it was needed to free the world of Occupation & reliving WWI.

    It seems you even don't understand what caused WW1.

    The fact is that without WW2 the US simply would not be the world leading power
    that it is now, prior to 1940-1945 it wasn't doing that great.

    And ever since then, war is good for business ... your most senior corporations
    function because of war once in a while, your economy needs it and your unemployed need a job ... just so you know, mercenaries are illegal here.

    In other words, we saved your ass & now you complain about the mess.

    That story about saving asses is as old as the US itself.

    The US cannot even save its own ass, as excellently was proven by the Vietnam war, a tiny nation but a determined fighting foe which sent you guys running faster than Von Paulus 6th Army after his defeat at Stalingrad.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Tue May 8 12:32:31 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Tuesday May 08 2018 11:15, you wrote to me:

    Those nukes should never have been there in the first place. It
    was the USA that started the nuclear arms race.

    Sure...

    The USA was the first to fabricate and deploy a nuclear weapon...

    ..,If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have
    happened. No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have been
    part of the EU by now.

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian.

    Possibly. Just like I speak German now. Having learned Russian in school would not have been all that bad. Perhaps easier to learn than German.

    I would love it if I could speak and write Russian. That would have made it possible to converse with my Russian Fidonet friends in their own language. Unfortunately I am too old now to learn a new language. :(

    Along with the rest of continental Europe.

    I said Russia would have been part of the EU. Not the other way around. The USA
    is good at making enemies. Not just for themselves, but for others as well, It was the USA that made Russia into our enemy.


    Cheers, Michiel

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Tue May 8 13:05:19 2018

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of continental Europe.

    And sipping the finest vodka ... on the rocks. And cheering Putin. What's so bad about that all?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to David Drummond on Tue May 8 05:13:22 2018

    ..,If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have happened.
    No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have been part of the
    EU by now.

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of
    continental Europe.

    Is that any harder to speak than German?

    Yeah but the beer & schnitzel isnt as good.

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue May 8 14:25:02 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Tuesday May 08 2018 01:40, you wrote to me:

    All USSR wanted after WWII was to recuperate after the war, licking their wounds and rebuilding their devastated country. But Reinhard
    Gehlen was dead set to prove his importance and fed CIA with loads of
    lies and they trusted him.

    They must have wanted to believe him or else they would have double checked. The wild West attitude may still be in their nature. The belief that a bigger gun than the other guy is the answer to all problems. Well, of all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail doesn't it?

    Needless to say, the USSR had to react at some point. And of course
    the US MIC prospered ever since. Just as IKE warned them about in his Farewell Address to the Nation on January 17, 1961.

    The US is good at making enemies. Not only for themselves, but for others as well. I say the US made the Russians into our enemies after WWII.

    I still want those 22 US nukes at Volkel to go...


    Cheers, Michiel

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue May 8 14:31:07 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    On Tuesday May 08 2018 02:00, you wrote to Phil Kimble:

    Ah, the Good Old Days! But those nukes kept Russia out, didnt
    they? So, again, if the USA had left & pulled the nukes out???
    You are welcome!

    Then the USSR would never had to join your arms race. They only did that because they (rightfully) regarded the USA as a threat to them.

    I say that one of the problems with the US is that they are unable to place themselves in the position of others. Thjey consider themselves the good guys, so no one needs to feek threatened by them, whatver they do.

    They are unable to see that no one considers him/herself the bad guys. The others consider themselves the good guys too. And many DO feel threatened by the almost omniwhere presence of the US military. Why does North Korea want nuclear weapons? Because they feel threatened by the nearby US military presence! I understand that, but apparently many of our fiends across the pond are unable to see that.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Phil Kimble on Tue May 8 14:59:10 2018
    Hello Phil,

    On Monday May 07 2018 23:17, you wrote to me:

    Ok Michiel, I will play this out.

    Please keep in mind that I have had this convesation numerous times in Fidonet.
    And frankly, I am getting pretty tired of the "we saved your arses from Hitler"
    mantra. So I am not sure if I want to play it out...

    MvdV>> I think this whole idea that the USSR was out to invade Western
    MvdV>> Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    Answer this question, who was going to get rid of the German war
    machine?

    What German war machine? Germany was beaten, there was very little left of this
    so called war machine. And how was that saying about guns? Well there may have been a few guns left, but Hitler was dead and his inner circle was dismantled. So what German war machine?

    So, again, if the USA had left & pulled the nukes out???

    I think we should have stayed completely out of it.

    Not just that: you should have stayed out of WWI. If you had, there may never have been a WWII.

    It was a European problem, let them resolve it. But after demonstrated inability to defend itself, I believe it was England, Canida, & the
    USA that invaded France to drive the German war machine back. Is this
    part correct in the European eyes

    No itis not correct. By the time the US entered the scene, Germany was already beaten. You just helped to quicken the end, but Germany would eventually have been beaten without the US.

    Isnt that what your Dutch women cried as your countrymen drug
    them through the streets in disgrace?

    Eh??

    Another misunderstanding, right? But I digress becuase we are talking about how bad the USA is.

    I didn't start this discussion. I would have gladly left it alone. But you came
    storming in with your

    you guys are a bunch of cowardly sissy-boys.

    MvdV>> Those nukes should never have been there in the first place. It
    MvdV>> was the USA that started the nuclear arms race. If the USA had
    MvdV>> just left after WWII, nothing would have happened. No cold war,
    MvdV>> no Berlin wall, and Russia might have been part of the EU by
    MvdV>> now.

    I agree, we should never had the A-Bomb,

    Indeed. Or at least you should have kept the secret to yourselves instead of shouting all over the world: "look what a big gun we heve" by dropping them on Hiroshima end Nagasaki.

    nukes in Europe, should have never attacked Japan,

    Pearl Harbor was a warning: "Stay out of the Pacific". You choose to not heed that warning .

    never experienced D-Day,

    It was a great story for a Hollywood movie...

    Paris Accord should have never been held, never invaded Grenda,
    Panama, Bosnia, stepped into Kosovo, atatcked Serbia,

    Indeed, you should have stayed out of it. All you did was making an even bigger
    mess.

    but it was becuase at the time it was needed to free the world of Occupation & reliving WWI.

    Or so you say...

    In other words, we saved your ass

    No you didn't. And now I am done with you. I am sick and tired of hearing this fake bit of history over and over again.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Phil Kimble on Wed May 9 05:54:57 2018
    Please keep in mind, that the USA was attacked

    Have you never wondered how come the USA, spending more on your military than the entire rest of the world, couldn't even defend your own capital and your economic centre from relatively slow flying commercial aeroplanes?

    Maybe you should set aside at least some 10% of all those billions of dollars to defensive weapons rather than offensive ditto?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to David Drummond on Wed May 9 09:29:48 2018
    David Drummond wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday May 08 2018 at 20:02:

    ..,If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have happened. MV>>> No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have been part of the
    EU by now.

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of
    continental Europe.

    Is that any harder to speak than German?

    Knowing both languages, I think so.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed May 9 09:30:54 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday May 08 2018 at 12:32:

    Those nukes should never have been there in the first place. It was
    the USA that started the nuclear arms race.

    Sure...

    The USA was the first to fabricate and deploy a nuclear weapon...

    ...which ended WWII. But how that started a "race" is your secret.

    ..,If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have happened. MV>>> No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have been part of the
    EU by now.

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian.

    Possibly. Just like I speak German now. Having learned Russian in
    school would not have been all that bad. Perhaps easier to learn than German.

    You think. I learned both languages, and know the differences.

    I would love it if I could speak and write Russian. That would have
    made it possible to converse with my Russian Fidonet friends in their
    own language. Unfortunately I am too old now to learn a new language.
    :(

    My situation as well, but the world continues to turn. I also learned Chinese in college, but there's little left of that now.

    Along with the rest of continental Europe.

    I said Russia would have been part of the EU. Not the other way
    around. The USA is good at making enemies. Not just for themselves,
    but for others as well, It was the USA that made Russia into our
    enemy.

    The EU would never have existed, and you conveniently forget the aftermath of WWII and the rivalries between the USSR (Stalin) and the States. Don't confuse the present situation, or that just after 1990, with Stalin's USSR.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Wed May 9 09:37:10 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday May 08 2018 at 13:05:

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of
    continental Europe.

    And sipping the finest vodka ... on the rocks. And cheering Putin.
    What's so bad about that all?

    You dont "sip" vodla in eastern Europe, you gulp it and ask for more. I once experienced this on a trip to eastern Germany.

    As for cheering Putin... well, how would you like to be told when you may go to
    the toilet? If you don't mind that, you'd have no problems.

    The Russian mentality is not that of the west, and hasn't been since Ivan the Terrible. Or Alexander Nevsky. Europe was never ruled for centuries by the Mongol Khans. But Russia was, and that left it's mark.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed May 9 09:52:18 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Phil Kimble on Wednesday May 09 2018 at 05:54:

    Have you never wondered how come the USA, spending more on your
    military than the entire rest of the world, couldn't even defend your
    own capital and your economic centre from relatively slow flying
    commercial aeroplanes?

    What does the one have to do with the other? Is Sweden immune to terrorist attacks, or is there some other reason?

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Wed May 9 11:40:54 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Wednesday May 09 2018 09:29, you wrote to David Drummond:

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of
    continental Europe.

    Is that any harder to speak than German?

    Knowing both languages, I think so.

    Your knowledge of the two languages is not on the same level. You have been embedded in a German speaking environment for nearly half a century. Your knowledge of Russian is probably on the same level as my Danish. You are not qualified to make the comparision.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Wed May 9 12:16:53 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Wednesday May 09 2018 09:30, you wrote to me:

    Those nukes should never have been there in the first place. It
    was the USA that started the nuclear arms race.

    Sure...

    The USA was the first to fabricate and deploy a nuclear weapon...

    ...which ended WWII.

    That was and still is the excuse. Not born out by the facts as we know them now.

    The fact is that the US was the first not only to detonate a nuclear weapon for
    testing, but also the first - and so far only one - to so do in a situation of
    armed combat.

    This promise that the USA will never be the first to deploy nuclear weapons in combat is a false promise. They have already done it.

    But how that started a "race" is your secret.

    Is it really so hard to understand that when one party demonstrates that they have a very powerfull weapon, that others want to have it too? Especially those
    that feel threatened by that party? And that if possible they want one just a little bigger? You really do not understand how that started the nuclear arms race?

    Another important factor is that once one knows for sure something is possible,
    one is already half way on the track to actually do it. By killing an estimated
    200K people with nuclear weapons the US clearly demonstrated the possibility.

    Had they just kept it a secret, there may not have been a nuclear arms race. North Korea may not have had nuclear capability. And now that Trump has blown the IRAN deal, Iran will have nuclear weapons within a year. Events all triggered by the USA.

    ..,If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have
    happened. No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have
    been part of the EU by now.

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian.

    Possibly. Just like I speak German now. Having learned Russian in
    school would not have been all that bad. Perhaps easier to learn
    than German.

    You think. I learned both languages, and know the differences.

    See my previous message. I had to learn German the hard way. It was torture. Russian can hardly be worse.

    I said Russia would have been part of the EU. Not the other way
    around. The USA is good at making enemies. Not just for
    themselves, but for others as well, It was the USA that made
    Russia into our enemy.

    The EU would never have existed,

    So you say...

    and you conveniently forget the aftermath of WWII

    Had the US not started the cold war and left Europe instead, the aftermath would have been completely different.

    and the rivalries between the USSR (Stalin) and the States.

    Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been ni such rivalry.

    Don't confuse the present situation, or that just after 1990, with Stalin's USSR.

    Stalin was not a nice guy, but he never was a threat to Western Europe.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Wed May 9 12:24:44 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Wednesday May 09 2018 09:37, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    As for cheering Putin... well, how would you like to be told when you
    may go to the toilet? If you don't mind that, you'd have no problems.

    It is my understanding that telling their employees when they may go to the toilet is standard procedure with Lidl. A German supermarket chain...

    The Russian mentality is not that of the west,

    There is no such thing as "the western mentality". But Europeans have a lot in common with European Russians. We have more in common than in what we differ.

    and hasn't been since Ivan the Terrible. Or Alexander Nevsky. Europe
    was never ruled for centuries by the Mongol Khans. But Russia was, and that left it's mark.

    Western Europe was ruled for centuries by Kings and Emperors competing for territory. That also left its marks. Grown up people can overcome that and be good neighbours and friends anyway. France and Germany have been sworn enemies for centuries. Now you have to look very carefully to see where the actual border is...

    The same could have happened with Russia and Europe. If only the USA not been so eager to make Russia into an enemy...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Wed May 9 14:11:14 2018
    Is Sweden immune to terrorist attacks,

    So it seems. The last one was more than a century ago (home brew). Maybe we haven't made many enough Muslim enemies...?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed May 9 07:24:05 2018
    On 05/09/18, Bj”rn Felten said the following...

    Please keep in mind, that the USA was attacked

    Have you never wondered how come the USA, spending more on your military than the entire rest of the world, couldn't even defend your
    own capital and your economic centre from relatively slow flying commercial aeroplanes?

    Have you ever wondered why the USA does not have the same problem with its people being overrun by Muslim extremists, causing your people to lose their culture, better check your own backyard, before pointing fingers.

    Your leaders are extremely docile, ours - not so much.

    The White House was never hit, it was most likely, on the list and part of the plan, but Americans on board sacrificed themselves to do what was necessary. United Airlines Flight 93 crashed Pennsylvania never reaching its intended target, these animals that hijacked the plane, were not able to carry out their evil.

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Wed May 9 17:01:58 2018
    Have you ever wondered why the USA does not have the same problem with its people being overrun by Muslim extremists,

    Hotel Gitmo? Patriot Act I and II? Is that part of your military defence?

    causing your people to lose their
    culture, better check your own backyard, before pointing fingers.

    We do not have such a problem at all. From where did you get that misinformation? Fox News?

    The White House was never hit,

    No, but the Pentagon was. AFAIK it's located in, or at least in the vicinity
    of, your capital. I'm fairly sure that the postal address is Washington, D.C.



    --




    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed May 9 17:54:11 2018
    The White House was never hit,

    No, but the Pentagon was. AFAIK it's located in, or at least in the vicinity of, your capital. I'm fairly sure that the postal address is Washington, D.C.

    In view of the fact that the White House is in the direct take-off track of runway 01 of Washington's National Airport and a mere stone's throw away, it just takes 1 renegade home-grown terrorist cockpit crew to attack the White House. They're there in 10 seconds and too low for any radar.

    It's a surprise such a thing hasn't happened yet.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wed May 9 18:29:30 2018
    It's a surprise such a thing hasn't happened yet.

    Depends. If the 2001 "attack" was orchestrated by the GWB administration, as
    many evidence point to, they surely wouldn't want to destroy the home of their patreon.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST on Wed May 9 16:06:54 2018
    Hello Phil,

    On Monday May 07 2018 11:54, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Yankee go home and take your nukes stored in De Peel with you.

    Ah, the Good Old Days! But those nukes kept Russia out, didnt
    they?

    They did? Well, it reminds me of a conversation I once overheard in the
    train.
    There was a guy throwing a yellowish powder out of the window. The guy
    next to
    him asked what the yellowish powder was and he said: "it is pili-pili
    powder,
    it keeps elephants away.

    But there are no elephants here in The Netherlands!

    See, it is working!

    I think this whole idea that the USSR was out to invade Western Europe
    was
    based on a giant misunderstanding.

    I doubt it, Putin is a reincarnated Stalin without the mustache. When he finishes with Ukraine and the rest of his 'former' republics the Red Army
    will come knockin'. And the US doesn't have the industrial capability or
    the logistics capability to wage a major war anyplace on the planet,
    assuming the US Army is still there, once its prepositioned stocks run
    out that's all she wrote. The only thing that's going to stop the Red
    Army is the Atlantic Ocean
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed May 9 13:52:44 2018
    Ok Michiel,

    I never claimed to be the smartest man in the world but I do claim to have an open mind & willingness to learn.

    MvdV> No you didn't. And now I am done with you. I am sick and tired of
    MvdV> hearing this fake bit of history over and over again.
    What are you references? Where do I go to read about the "truth"?

    My turth is based on countless stories from my garndfathers, uncles, and even 1
    that escaped Norway during German occupation. I wasnt alive, I wasnt there, so how do I know? right? I know what the men in my family have educated me, documetatires, and books.

    So please, share with us the European "Truth" of what REALLY happened so we will all feel a little enlightened.


    MvdV> Cheers, Michiel

    MvdV> -+- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    MvdV> + Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Ward Dossche on Wed May 9 13:59:28 2018
    Hey Ward,

    Its been a long time. How are you doing?

    It is remarcable, that the same nonsense is again regurgitated by a
    US partner. OK ... here it goes:
    You know, its like thr Macedonian raki, I tried so hard to stay away from it for so long that I finally had to try it.

    I like this, but it demonstates the narrow mindedness of the EU, "it
    wont happen to us"...

    The EU-model, let's call it that way, is that within its territory no wars have errupted anymore since WW2 ... 73 years of uninterrupted
    peace. The idea was fantastic ... create economic ties between former foes, get them involved in doing business with eachother rather than fight ... less people killed, less societies to rebuild, enhanced standard of living. Look, it worked ... and to reach that point the
    EU didn't need a gigantic army which fueled a gigantic industrial war complex which in itself masks immense US unemployment figures. Young people here do not need to get into the military because these are
    the only jobs available and the only way to get through college ...
    They do not have to do that because of the EU-model. It works.

    Really? Please disclouse what you consider to be the EU? Becuase unless you have been hiding, there has not been peace in Europe for 73 years.

    But just as a reminder, by June 6th 1944:

    * the Luftwaffe was already largely reduced to scrap, it was not the attack
    force it used to be once

    Yup, the French resistance had knocked them out of the sky with rocks & thier paper airplanes. Right? Dutch wooden shoes does a remarkable job...

    * Britain had won the Battle of Britain
    * Britain had won the Battle of the Atlantic reducing the whole
    German
    surface fleet to exactly a single heavy unit (Prinz Eugen)
    Yup, along with thier fishing boats.

    * Britain had already decisively beaten Rommel in North Africa
    Now this is new that I had never heard before.

    In the movie Patton, played by George C Marshall, Patton saved the day & defeated Rommell.

    Isnt that what your Dutch women cried as your countrymen
    drug them through the streets in disgrace?

    In 1994 when 50 years of liberation was celebrated in the Netherlands
    and vets paraded down the streets, there were many signs by 44yr old Dutch men and women reading "Are you my father?" because the
    Americans not only fought themselves to Germany, they fucked them
    there as well for a pack of cigarettes or chocolate.
    Are you sure it wasnt asking the Germans that question from the occupation? I mean after the Nazis had them & the Dutch discarded them, why not have a go at them? It gets cold in the winter. And now maybe, just maybe, yoru countrymen will learn how to respect women.

    I agree, we should never had the A-Bomb, nukes in Europe, should have
    never attacked Japan, never experienced D-Day, Paris Accord should
    have never been held, never invaded Grenda, Panama, Bosnia, stepped
    into Kosovo, atatcked Serbia, but it was becuase at the time it was
    needed to free the world of Occupation & reliving WWI.

    It seems you even don't understand what caused WW1.
    It seems that while the EU was sleeping for 73 years, Yugoslavia was in a state
    of war that was completely acceptable by the European countries as long as it remained south of the Sava River. I mean, we are all Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, Christians and the Serbs were killing the Muslims & Turks by the hundreds, so that was ok. Its the European Model!

    The fact is that without WW2 the US simply would not be the world
    leading power that it is now, prior to 1940-1945 it wasn't doing that great.
    Without WW2, I dont think any of our countries would be doing very well. After all, it was called the Great Depression, was it not?

    And ever since then, war is good for business ... your most senior corporations function because of war once in a while, your economy
    needs it and your unemployed need a job ... just so you know,
    mercenaries are illegal here.
    That is good. Mercenaries are an evil neccisity for every country. I am sure that every European country has hired Armies to fight for them. I mean, arent the French famous for thier Mercenaries? America is young, we are just trying to catch up to the evil EU...

    In other words, we saved your ass & now you complain about the mess.

    That story about saving asses is as old as the US itself.

    You know Ward, I spent last spring in Romania and the story I love the most is explaining how loved & celebrated the Romanian Communist Leader Nicolae Ceausescu is. But the Romanians admit to capturing, killing, & hanging his body
    up on display. Its the same old story, you catch the neighbor doing something criminal and cry for the Police. Even though you had committed the same crime the day before.

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed May 9 23:06:00 2018
    It's a surprise such a thing hasn't happened yet.

    Depends. If the 2001 "attack" was orchestrated by the GWB
    administration, as many evidence point to, they surely wouldn't want to destroy the home of their patreon.

    He was reading children's books in Florida, remember?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Phil Kimble on Thu May 10 00:50:16 2018
    Hello Phil,

    On Wednesday May 09 2018 13:52, you wrote to me:

    I never claimed to be the smartest man in the world but I do claim to
    have an open mind & willingness to learn.

    People with an open mind and willingness to learn do not enter the scene with:

    you guys are a bunch of cowardly sissy-boys.

    So...

    So please, share with us the European "Truth" of what REALLY happened
    so we will all feel a little enlightened.

    Time is my most valuable commodity as it is finite and irreplacable. I have stopped wasting time on trying to educate people who believe the earth is flat,
    people who believe they have an infinite mover or people who believe they saved
    our arses from Hitler.

    Sorry, I am not playing.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed May 9 19:48:34 2018
    On 05/09/18, Bj”rn Felten said the following...

    Have you ever wondered why the USA does not have the same problem wit people being overrun by Muslim extremists,

    Hotel Gitmo? Patriot Act I and II? Is that part of your military defence?

    what of it?
    Guantanamo Bay detention camp is a United States military prison located within Guantanamo Bay Naval Base located at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
    These terrorists need to be put somewhere, what do you do with yours? or do
    you just close your eyes really tight and hope that they will vanish when your open your eyes again?
    It does not work like that in the real world.

    We do not have such a problem at all. From where did you get that misinformation? Fox News?

    How about a local newspaper in your country. https://www.thelocal.se/20180220/stockholm-terror-suspect-wanted-to-kill-swedis h-citizens
    Headline: Stockholm terror suspect wanted to 'kill Swedish citizens'

    Sweden is not the utopia that you make it sound.

    The White House was never hit,

    No, but the Pentagon was. AFAIK it's located in, or at least in the vicinity of, your capital. I'm fairly sure that the postal address is Washington, D.C.

    Yes the Pentagon is in the general vicinity, different zip code though, but make no mistake the plane that crashed in the state of Pennsylvania was marked for the The White House.

    Americans sacrificed themselves and did what was necessary to foil the terrorist plot.

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu May 10 03:49:37 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    Those nukes should never have been there in the first place. It
    was the USA that started the nuclear arms race.

    Sure...

    The USA was the first to fabricate and deploy a nuclear weapon...

    ...which ended WWII.

    MvdV> That was and still is the excuse. Not born out by the facts as we know them
    MvdV> now.

    It took a while for the Emperor to get word out to the troops
    that the war in the Pacific was over ...

    MvdV> The fact is that the US was the first not only to detonate a nuclear weapon
    MvdV> for testing, but also the first - and so far only one - to so do in a
    MvdV> situation of armed combat.

    And some feared that Truman would continue dropping atomic bombs
    on other cities, most notably in Russia.

    MvdV> This promise that the USA will never be the first to deploy nuclear weapons
    MvdV> in combat is a false promise. They have already done it.

    Dropping atomic bombs on Japan was totally unnecessary.
    Truman did it as a warning to the USSR, not as a legitimate
    means for ending the war in the Pacific.

    But how that started a "race" is your secret.

    MvdV> Is it really so hard to understand that when one party demonstrates that
    MvdV> they have a very powerfull weapon, that others want to have it too?
    MvdV> Especially those that feel threatened by that party?

    Nazi Germany was working on developing atomic weapons during WWII.
    The Empire of Japan was also doing the same. I am sure the USSR also
    had a program. The US just happened to be the first to have an
    actual working atomic bomb, as used them to great effect.

    MvdV> And that if possible they want one just a little bigger?

    In 1949, the USSR did exactly that, with the hydrogen bomb.

    MvdV> You really do not understand how that started the nuclear arms race?

    The so-called "arms race" was all scam. One country trying to
    force another country into economic bankruptcy. And we all know
    which country wound up going broke first.

    MvdV> Another important factor is that once one knows for sure something is
    MvdV> possible, one is already half way on the track to actually do it.

    The US was not the only country that had a nuclear weapons program.
    Had the US not developed working atomic bombs before Germany or Japan,
    guess what cities would have wound up glowing in the dark?

    MvdV> By killing an estimated 200K people with nuclear weapons the US clearly
    MvdV> demonstrated the possibility.

    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in
    the Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated. However, it
    did send a clear signal to Stalin what cities were next on
    Truman's list.

    MvdV> Had they just kept it a secret, there may not have been a nuclear arms race.

    Since the Allies won the war, and not the Axis, look at which
    countries have nukes - USA/France/UK/Russia/China versus which
    countries do not - Germany/Japan/Italy.

    MvdV> North Korea may not have had nuclear capability.

    They have demonstrated the ability to detonate nuclear devices.
    They have also demonstrated a means of delivering them.
    What is not known is how accurate their guidance system is
    for delivering those nuclear devices to their intended targets.

    MvdV> And now that Trump has blown the IRAN deal, Iran will have nuclear weapons
    MvdV> within a year.

    Pure speculation. Not necessarily based on fact. The "deal"
    with Iran was done with six countries, the US position just one
    signatoree. Is the US still complying with the terms? If so,
    the deal may still be in place, despite Trump's action.

    MvdV> Events all triggered by the USA.

    Not to worry. The boy from France will save us.

    ..,If the USA had just left after WWII, nothing would have
    happened. No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have
    been part of the EU by now.

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian.

    Possibly. Just like I speak German now. Having learned Russian in
    school would not have been all that bad. Perhaps easier to learn
    than German.

    You think. I learned both languages, and know the differences.

    MvdV> See my previous message. I had to learn German the hard way. It was torture.
    MvdV> Russian can hardly be worse.

    You should have gotten a Russian girlfriend. Much more pleasureable
    that way.

    I said Russia would have been part of the EU. Not the other way
    around. The USA is good at making enemies. Not just for
    themselves, but for others as well, It was the USA that made
    Russia into our enemy.

    The EU would never have existed,

    MvdV> So you say...

    After WWII, most countries in Europe needed help as their
    economies were in ruins. The US halped, and so did the USSR.
    FDR's vision would have been for the US and USSR to work
    together, as one, in order to help all countries in Europe.
    However, Truman had other plans.

    and you conveniently forget the aftermath of WWII

    MvdV> Had the US not started the cold war and left Europe instead, the aftermath
    MvdV> would have been completely different.

    It takes two to tango. The Cold War did not start until 1947,
    when Harry S Truman was in office. Stalin was still in charge,
    until his death in 1953. Eisenhower came into office, and dealt
    with the situation in the only way he knew how - as a military
    man. So what else can you expect?

    and the rivalries between the USSR (Stalin) and the States.

    MvdV> Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been ni such rivalry.

    Some of Truman's generals wanted the US to continue WWII by
    forcing the Soviets out of Europe. Fortunately, saner heads
    prevailed, as most soldiers were tired of war and wanted to
    return home.

    Don't confuse the present situation, or that just after 1990, with
    Stalin's USSR.

    MvdV> Stalin was not a nice guy, but he never was a threat to Western Europe.

    Josef Stalin was from Georgia. Ironic that Russia invaded
    part of Georgia, on Vladimir Putin's orders, and remain there
    to this day. Also, a part of Ukraine was illegally annexed,
    thanks to Putin's orders.

    Josef Stalin's grandson used to be ashamed his grandfather
    was the leader of the USSR. But today he is proud, and not
    ashamed to say so. But he has no desire to live in Russia,
    choosing to remain in his native Georgia. He also has no
    desire to enter politics, as his interest is in the arts.

    I do not believe Putin has any interest in invading Europe.
    Or in starting a nuclear war, whether with the US or China or
    any other country. His interest is in protecting Russia,
    and its citizens. After all, he is the elected president
    of Russia, and is doing the job every Russian demands and
    expects him to do.

    US troops remained in Japan for five years after cessation of
    hostilities. US troops remained in Austria for ten years after
    cessation of hostilities. Why the difference? Because many
    in the US feared the USSR was intent on staying forever, and
    wanted to incorporate all of Europe as part of their union.

    You and me both know that it is not economically feasable
    for a country of 145 million people to hold, by force, a land
    mass with a population of 350 million people. Just think of
    how much food those Russian troops would have to get to feed
    all those hungry people ...

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu May 10 03:49:48 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    As for cheering Putin... well, how would you like to be told when you
    may go to the toilet? If you don't mind that, you'd have no problems.

    MvdV> It is my understanding that telling their employees when they may go to the
    MvdV> toilet is standard procedure with Lidl. A German supermarket chain...

    You gotta go when you gotta go. It's that simple. No employer
    would be so inhuman to not allow an employer to do his/her business
    when it is time to go. That would be inviting a lawsuit. And also
    possible criminal charges on civil rights violations.

    Teachers allow students to do their business, even if it means
    the student missing some time in class. It is not always possible
    to "hold it in" until the bell rings, as every teacher (and parent)
    knows. That is why God created hall passes.

    The Russian mentality is not that of the west,

    MvdV> There is no such thing as "the western mentality".

    And yet, that is what many have been taught to believe.

    MvdV> But Europeans have a lot in common with European Russians. We have more in
    MvdV> common than in what we differ.

    Americans also have a lot in common with Russians. Especially
    in areas such as Alaska, which has a very strong Russian culture.
    But not limited to Alaska, as there are many Russian coummities
    throughout the US.

    and hasn't been since Ivan the Terrible. Or Alexander Nevsky. Europe
    was never ruled for centuries by the Mongol Khans. But Russia was, and
    that left it's mark.

    MvdV> Western Europe was ruled for centuries by Kings and Emperors competing for
    MvdV> territory. That also left its marks. Grown up people can overcome that and
    MvdV> be good neighbours and friends anyway. France and Germany have been sworn
    MvdV> enemies for centuries. Now you have to look very carefully to see where the
    MvdV> actual border is...

    More cooperation is needed, if all are to grow and prosper. Building
    fences, especially between neighbors, is harmful to all, as progress is delayed.

    MvdV> The same could have happened with Russia and Europe.

    Who says "could have"? The world is always changing, sometimes
    for the better. Giving up is despair, and leads to nowhere.

    MvdV> If only the USA not been so eager to make Russia into an enemy...

    That was Truman's idea. FDR and Stalin had other plans in mind.

    --Lee

    --
    I Take A Sheet In The Pool

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu May 10 03:49:58 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Have you ever wondered why the USA does not have the same problem
    with its
    people being overrun by Muslim extremists,

    Hotel Gitmo?

    Although not officially closed, as no new houseguests have been
    admitted in years, it does remain open for business. Assuming more
    houseguests can be found. I hear they serve a delicious ham and
    eggs breakfast ...

    Patriot Act I and II? Is that part of your military defence?

    All versions of the Patriot Act (I and II) have been put out
    to pasture. But not to worry. With Trump scuttling the Iran
    deal, a new Patriot Act will soon be needed ...

    causing your people to lose their culture, better check your GD>own
    backyard, before pointing fingers.

    We do not have such a problem at all. From where did you get that misinformation? Fox News?

    The White Flag Principle. Grab hanky, and yell "We Surrender!"

    The White House was never hit,

    No, but the Pentagon was.

    One of the walls was hit. By a missile, not a plane. Of course,
    some folks argue the plane was used as a guided missile. But that
    is not the same thing as being a missile. Do note the difference.

    AFAIK it's located in, or at least in the vicinity of, your capital.

    Not for long. The building is too small. Will probably be
    relocated to someplace in Colorado.

    I'm fairly sure that the postal address is Washington, D.C.

    Pennsylvania 65000

    --Lee

    --
    It Ain't Payday If It Ain't Nuts In Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Thu May 10 03:50:08 2018
    Hello Greg,

    Please keep in mind, that the USA was attacked

    Have you never wondered how come the USA, spending more on your
    military than the entire rest of the world, couldn't even defend your
    own capital and your economic centre from relatively slow flying
    commercial aeroplanes?

    Have you ever wondered why the USA does not have the same problem with its people being overrun by Muslim extremists, causing your people to lose their culture, better check your own backyard, before pointing fingers.

    Your leaders are extremely docile, ours - not so much.

    It is not just Sweden, but also France, and Germany, etc.
    They have been invaded by a Muslim horde, that multiplies
    like rabbits as birth control is a no-no under Islam.

    Today, there are more mosques than churches in France, with
    far more adherents attending services. Their numbers are also
    increasing in Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, and elsewhere.

    In the US, the Trump administration has put on the brakes
    for Muslims who want to come here. How many Syrian refugees
    have been allowed to resettle here since Trump took office?
    I'll let you (and others) do your own research.

    The White House was never hit,

    The British burned it down, along with the entire city, during
    the War of 1812. But we are the best of friends now, having patched
    up our differences. Toronto has been rebuilt, along with DC. I
    think the Canadians got the better deal.

    it was most likely, on the list and part of the plan,

    Those who hijacked four passenger planes had no intention
    of landing them. We know the targets of three of those planes.
    The fourth target remains a mystery.

    but Americans on board sacrificed themselves to do what was necessary.

    The president ordered it shot down. His orders were followed.
    Was it necessary? The president thought so.

    None of the passengers sacrificed themselves so others might live.
    Nor did any of the passengers sacrifice themselves for the sake of
    a public building (the White House). While all the passengers,
    and crew, should be honored, let's not get ahead of ourselves by
    claiming to know their thoughts or intentions.

    Im my view, every single passenger was scared to death by what
    was happening, and wanted to survive. And I am certain the crew
    did as well.

    United Airlines Flight 93 crashed Pennsylvania never reaching its intended target,

    It was shot down, in broad daylight, by the US military.

    these animals that hijacked the plane, were not able to carry out their evil.

    By hijacking the plane, they already did.

    GWB did the same thing that Putin did. He ordered a passenger
    plane to be shot down, which is standard operating procedure in
    today's world. The difference between the two events was that
    on 9-11 the ohly way to prevent the plane from reaching its
    intended target was for the military to actually shoot it down.

    The plane in Russia was allowed to land, with all passengers
    safe, as the military determined it was a false flag. This was
    on the same day as opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu May 10 03:50:18 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    It's a surprise such a thing hasn't happened yet.

    Depends. If the 2001 "attack" was orchestrated by the GWB administration,
    as
    many evidence point to, they surely wouldn't want to destroy the home of their patreon.

    Normally, I'd ask Art Bell for confirmation. But he's dead.
    So I'll have to take your word for it.

    --Lee

    --
    Erections, That's Our Game

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thu May 10 03:50:28 2018
    Hello Ward,

    The White House was never hit,

    No, but the Pentagon was. AFAIK it's located in, or at least in the
    vicinity of, your capital. I'm fairly sure that the postal address is
    Washington, D.C.

    In view of the fact that the White House is in the direct take-off track
    of
    runway 01 of Washington's National Airport and a mere stone's throw away, it just takes 1 renegade home-grown terrorist cockpit crew to attack the White House. They're there in 10 seconds and too low for any radar.

    It's a surprise such a thing hasn't happened yet.

    It already has. Sort of. A guy flew his home-made ultralight
    onto the White House lawn, without getting himself shot down in
    the process. Onlookers gawked and wondered how he managed to
    accomplish that feat. And to think he did it in broad daylight,
    and got evrything caught on camera.

    However, the secret service was not amused, arresting him on charges
    of trespassing. And probably also for flying without a license ...

    --Lee

    --
    Make Sure Your Next Erection Is In Safe Hands

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to BOB ACKLEY on Thu May 10 03:50:39 2018
    Hello Bob,

    I think this whole idea that the USSR was out to invade Western Europe was
    based on a giant misunderstanding.

    I doubt it, Putin is a reincarnated Stalin without the mustache.

    Historians are coming to the conclusion that FEF and Stalin shared
    a growing personal friendship. The US and USSR were allies during
    WWII, and Stalin kept his word with FDR (and British PM Churchill).
    It was not until after FDR's successor, Harry S Truman, screwed
    the pooch that things turned sour.

    When he finishes with Ukraine and the rest of his 'former' republics the
    Red
    Army will come knockin'.

    That is paranoid, and clearly delusional. The total population
    of Russia is 145 million, aging, and declining in number. While
    Russia does retain the ability to fight small wars, much like the
    US, it cannot do what it once did in times past. The days of the
    "Evil Empire" that Ronald Reagan talked about are long gone, and
    will never be resurrected.

    Since Putin has been elected, and re-elected, probably until he
    retires, the Russian mighty military machine has only been able to
    occupy 20 percent of the land it invaded in Georgia, control the
    Crimean peninsula illegally annexed from Ukraine, and quelled a
    Muslim insurrection in the Russian province of Chechnya.

    To think such an army is capable of invading all of Europe, and
    more, is something only right-wing fanatics on FoxNews believe.

    And the US doesn't have the industrial capability or
    the logistics capability to wage a major war anyplace on the planet, assuming the US Army is still there, once its prepositioned stocks run
    out that's all she wrote. The only thing that's going to stop the Red Army is the Atlantic Ocean

    The Russian army would have great difficulty just crossing the Elbe.

    --Lee

    --
    Make Sure Your Next Erection Is In Safe Hands

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thu May 10 03:50:49 2018
    Hello Ward,

    It's a surprise such a thing hasn't happened yet.

    Depends. If the 2001 "attack" was orchestrated by the GWB
    administration, as many evidence point to, they surely wouldn't want to
    destroy the home of their patreon.

    He was reading children's books in Florida, remember?

    "My Pet Goat" - not a reference to David D., who prefers sheep.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Thu May 10 03:51:10 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Ah, the Good Old Days! But those nukes kept Russia out, didnt they?
    So, again, if the USA had left & pulled the nukes out??? You are
    welcome!

    Then the USSR would never had to join your arms race.

    A growing number of historians are coming to the conclusion that
    FDR had intended to share nuclear secrets with Stalin, thus keeping
    a lid on whatever atomic weapons the US might have developed during
    the war. However, FDR unexpectedly died in April, 1945. Before
    the end of the war in the Atlantic, and Pacific.

    It was FDR's successor, Harry S Truman, who decided to atomize
    two Japanese cities, and threaten to do the same to the USSR if
    it continued its advance in Japan. Some of his generals, such
    as Curtis LeMay, promoted that view.

    Since only the US had atomic weapons, some folks wanted Truman
    to continue waging war in Europe, forcing the Soviets to withdraw
    from that theater.

    Just imagine what the world would be like today had Truman done
    that. No more USSR. No Red China ever coming into existence.
    The USA in total control of three continents - North America,
    Europe, and Asia. I am sure the Aussies would have quickly come
    to their senses and applied to become a full-fledged member,
    perhaps becoming one of our states. An entire continent, being
    a state of the USA.

    David D. would be proud.

    The Cold War did not begin until 1947, well after the end of WWII.
    The Cold War officially ended in 1989, with the breakup of the former
    Soviet Union, with each state of the Evil Empire gaining their own independence.

    They only did that because they (rightfully) regarded the USA as a threat
    to
    them.

    Stalin did not view the USA as a threat to them while FDR was in
    office. It was only after his successor took over that things began
    to sour.

    I can only once again say that I fully agree with Dwight D Eisenhower:

    "We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted.

    Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defence with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."

    http://tinyurl.com/yaxqau9e

    Although there is some truth in Ike's speech, it should also be
    remembered his speech was also political commentary about his
    successor, JFK.

    The two men did not share the same views, especially when it came
    to matters of policy. Ike was a military man, a retired general.
    JFK was not, even though he did serve in the military during WWII.

    Due to the actions of Harry S Truman, the US and USSR were engaged
    in a Cold War, which lasted from 1947 to 1989. As a result, both
    countries suffered through an escalating arms race, which weakened
    the economies of both countries.

    The reason the Cold War came to an end was because the USSR went
    broke. The US was not far behind, as it almost followed suit.

    After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Gorbachev asked
    the US for economic assistance. Kind of like a Marshall Plan for
    Russia. But George HW Bush told Gorby "Nyet!" and the rest is
    history.

    A drunkard was elected, and succeeded by a former KGB man.

    Some things never change.

    Meanwhile, a bozo with orange hair is leader of the free world ...

    --Lee

    --
    Your Hole Is Our Goal

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Lee Lofaso on Thu May 10 09:23:34 2018
    It's a surprise such a thing hasn't happened yet.

    It already has. Sort of. A guy flew his home-made ultralight
    onto the White House lawn, without getting himself shot down in
    the process. Onlookers gawked and wondered how he managed to
    accomplish that feat. And to think he did it in broad daylight,
    and got evrything caught on camera.

    Radar will catch nothing below the top of the Washington Monument.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/2140.2 to BOB ACKLEY on Thu May 10 10:20:16 2018
    Hi, Bob Ackley!
    I read your message from 09.05.2018 16:06

    BA> I doubt it, Putin is a reincarnated Stalin without the
    BA> mustache. When he finishes with Ukraine and the rest of his
    BA> 'former' republics the Red Army will come knockin'.

    The Ukrainians very likely will finish their country by themselves. They
    were and are extremely divided. The West, although, accepts only one
    part of them -- the one that is against Russia. As if a doctor looks at
    the patient who broke his leg, but looking only at the upper part of the broken leg.

    Bye, Bob!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido7.fidonews 2018
    --- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
    * Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Phil Kimble on Thu May 10 12:18:28 2018
    Hello Phil,

    You know, its like thr Macedonian raki, I tried so hard to stay away from it for so long that I finally had to try it.

    Good stuff, isn't? It takes getting used to for some.

    Really? Please disclouse what you consider to be the EU? Becuase unless
    you have been hiding, there has not been peace in Europe for 73 years.

    When you talk about America, we are being told we must accept that your definition is prevalent and it actually means the USA, not Canada, not Mexico, not any other country in the Americas and that's fine with me.

    In the same way you should then accept our definition of EU, lucky enough for us that is legally defined by treaties. The following countries are members and
    the year they joined or were admitted. 1958 is the year of creation:

    Belgium 1958
    France 1958
    Netherlands 1958
    Luxembourg 1958
    Italy 1958
    Germany 1958
    Bulgaria 2007
    Cyprus 2004
    Denmark 1973
    Estonia 2004
    Finland 1959
    Greece 1981
    Hungary 2004
    Ireland 1973
    Croatia 2013
    Latvia 2004
    Lithuania 2004
    Malta 2004
    Austria 1995
    Poland 2004
    Portugal 1986
    Romania 2007
    Slovenia 2004
    Slovakia 2004
    Spain 1986
    Tsjechia 2004
    UK 1973
    Sweden 1995

    Please observe that I mentioned "EU" ... well these are the EU-countries. Anything else may be in Europe but is not in the EU ... Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, Monaco, Andorra, Liechtenstein ... may be in Europe, but are not EU.

    Please do not change my statement. I said:

    "The EU-model, let's call it that way, is that within its territory no wars have errupted anymore since WW2 ..."

    * the Luftwaffe was already largely reduced to scrap, it was not the PK>WD> attack force it used to be once

    Yup, the French resistance had knocked them out of the sky with rocks & thier paper airplanes. Right? Dutch wooden shoes does a remarkable job...

    Denial is not a river in Egypt.

    * Britain had won the Battle of the Atlantic reducing the whole
    German surface fleet to exactly a single heavy unit (Prinz Eugen)
    Yup, along with thier fishing boats.

    Graf Spee, Blucher, Bismarck were lost on their first mission.

    Scharnhorst was sunk, Gneisenau after early 1942 permanently in repairs and would see no action anymore. Plan-Z, the building of a German surface fleet, was scrapped mid 1942.

    Tirpitz was heavily damaged in Norway Sept.22 1943 and continuous in repairs after several other attacks and totally useless on June 6 1944.

    The Hipper was decommissioned mid 1942, Prinz Eugen never left the Bqltic Seq anymore, Lutzow was a lot in dry dock to repair damages and as of 1943 never left the Baltic, Admiral Scheer returned to Germany end 1942 and never left the
    Baltic again

    Anything else?

    * Britain had already decisively beaten Rommel in North Africa
    Now this is new that I had never heard before.

    In the movie Patton, played by George C Marshall, Patton saved the day & defeated Rommell.

    Do you know any other good Hollywood movies ?

    I mean, we are all Catholic,
    Lutheran, Protestant, Christians and the Serbs were killing the Muslims & Turks by the hundreds, so that was ok. Its the European Model!

    Pot, black, kettle ... you want me to dig-up Wounded Knee? Those Americans were
    also all Christians.

    Without WW2, I dont think any of our countries would be doing very well. After all, it was called the Great Depression, was it not?

    The Great Depression especially hit the USA ... I cannot remember my grandparents not parents complaining about that era.

    You know Ward, I spent last spring in Romania and the story I love the
    most is explaining how loved & celebrated the Romanian Communist Leader Nicolae Ceausescu is.

    I don't see the relevance.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Lee Lofaso on Thu May 10 20:18:41 2018
    On 10/05/2018 11:50 AM, Lee Lofaso -> Ward Dossche wrote:

    Depends. If the 2001 "attack" was orchestrated by the GWB
    administration, as many evidence point to, they surely wouldn't want to
    destroy the home of their patreon.

    He was reading children's books in Florida, remember?

    "My Pet Goat" - not a reference to David D., who prefers sheep.

    Since moving to Australia I've had to give up on sheep - the ones here are downright fugly.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Cunnamulla, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Ward Dossche on Thu May 10 12:49:26 2018
    Hello Ward!

    10 May 18 12:18, Ward Dossche wrote to Phil Kimble:

    * Britain had won the Battle of the Atlantic reducing the whole
    German surface fleet to exactly a single heavy unit (Prinz Eugen)

    Anything else?

    Yes, mentioning that Hilter commanded already in January 1943 to decommission all heavy battle ships (and cease construction of the Graf Zeppelin, too).


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 12:49PM up 123 days, 14:42, 9 users, load averages: 0.14, 0.21, 0.23

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: A love pays love for lying (2:240/12)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Phil Kimble on Thu May 10 13:43:00 2018
    But the Romanians admit to capturing, killing, & hanging his body up on display.

    That sounds more like the fate of Mussolini half a century earlier. Ceausescu was executed by a firing squad.



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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Thu May 10 14:05:52 2018
    Headline: Stockholm terror suspect wanted to 'kill Swedish citizens'

    A crazy man that drives a car into a crowd is usually not defined as terrorism. Except of course in the tabloids...



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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Gerrit Kuehn on Thu May 10 15:14:00 2018
    Gerrit,

    Anything else?

    Yes, mentioning that Hilter commanded already in January 1943 to decommission all heavy battle ships (and cease construction of the Graf Zeppelin, too).

    I don't know the exact time frame, but your statement seems correct to me.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Lee Lofaso on Thu May 10 16:22:34 2018
    Hello Lee,

    On Thursday May 10 2018 03:49, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> And now that Trump has blown the IRAN deal, Iran will have
    MvdV>> nuclear weapons within a year.

    Pure speculation.

    There is an element of speculation in this prediction. But it is a logical consequence.

    Not necessarily based on fact. The "deal" with Iran was done with six countries, the US position just one signatoree. Is the US still
    complying with the terms? If so, the deal may still be in place,
    despite Trump's action.

    While it is true that the US is only one of the signatories and that the other five could go on with the deal, this is just a theoretical option. If Trump extends the sanctions to all countries doing business with Iran - and it seems that he will - than it will be next to impossible for any country to have meaningful trade relations with Iran and so there will be no economic advantage
    for Iran to keep their part of the deal.

    Other than that the damage has already been done. International trade relations
    are build on trust. Trust that a deal is a deal. The US has shown that they are
    an unreliable partner. What is the value of the deal if it can be killed unilaterally just liked that? Who is going to long term invest Iran under those
    conditions?

    Now that the economical advantages of keeping their part of the deal are gone, what else is in it for them?

    Let's face it: the nuclear genie is out of he bottle. Has been for decades. Making a nuclear weapon is not all that difficult. The basic technology is publically available. Any sufficiently motivated country can do it. Iran surely
    can.

    The only reason for a country to dispense with nuclear weapons is international
    treaties that reward them with economic advantages if they play along.

    But that requires that ALL parties play along.

    Plus that North Korea has shown that having nuclear weapons pays off: it keeps the US at bay.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Bj?rn Felten on Thu May 10 13:00:08 2018
    Please keep in mind, that the USA was attacked

    Have you never wondered how come the USA, spending more on your military than the entire rest of the world, couldn't even defend your
    own capital and your economic centre from relatively slow flying commercial aeroplanes?
    Ok, that is a good one & you make a valid point. If the CIA & FBI knew about these guys, why didnt they stop them? If we know guns are being purchased, why dont we do something to prevent them from entering our schools?

    I dont think there is any society on earth that has not faced democratic challenges at some point in history. Look at your own country fro example, go back 50, 100 500 years. What happened? Its not the same country today as it was
    500 years ago or even 100 years ago.

    Before you cry foul, look at what your country has done, where it has been, how
    many people it has brutally killed, raped, & burned in the conquest for new adventures. And you dare whine over a few nukes?

    Maybe you should set aside at least some 10% of all those billions
    of dollars to defensive weapons rather than offensive ditto?
    Absolutely! Lets pull all of the USD out of the EU, UN, NATO, and other interestes that do not directly favor the USA. Pull the USA out of Syria, Korea, and let the EU, UN, & NATO handle it.

    Oh wait, that doesnt work either!!

    Its funny, because in all this slanderous talk, there is never any mention of European fault (who started WWI AND WWII?) or the Marshal Plan that "helped" rebuild Europe.

    Love ya Guys, G'Nyte!!

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From Phil Kimble@1:128/2 to Bj?rn Felten on Thu May 10 13:31:12 2018

    But the Romanians admit to capturing, killing, & hanging his body up
    on display.

    That sounds more like the fate of Mussolini half a century
    earlier. Ceausescu was executed by a firing squad.

    But he is lovingly remembered & celebrated as one of the Romania great leaders?


    The point is, who our enemy is today, might not be tomorrow. What we once thought to be true, we may discover to be a lie.

    I completely admire the accomplishments of Hilter's Germany in the 1930s. Up until they started the whole genocide thing. When you start executing 100,000 people to rid thier culture from the face of the earth, that is a little too extreme. The off thing is, I dont recall any stories of how the League of Natoons stepped in & stopped the mass exodus of the Jewish people. Can someone explain to me what the European countries did to stop this?

    Likewise, I completely agree in the concept of a socialist goevernment. Unfortionately its always muffed up in the execution of it & never turns out good.

    There is alot of good in a Welfare State. But I don't make enough money to feed
    my family and your famiuly too. So you better get off the couch & get a job!

    So yeah, I think the Eu & Europe is full of a bunch of sissy-boys. Becuase they
    do very little action to solve real issues but always pointing a finger & talking foul about those who do take a proactive stance against issues.

    --- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
    * Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Phil Kimble on Thu May 10 22:12:32 2018
    The off thing is, I dont recall any stories of how
    the League of Natoons stepped in & stopped the mass exodus of the Jewish people. Can someone explain to me what the European countries did to stop this?

    Several European countries facilitated the Jewry fleeing Nazi-controlled territory. Everybody saw the shadow of doom hanging, it was clear the Jews would take a hit, it was to be expected that Nazi Germany would go to war again. Jews were only safe behind a physical barrier ... the UK, Ireland and everything across the Atlantic.

    Across the Atlantic the most welcoming countries were Cuba, Mexico, Honduras, Panama, Venezuele, Brazil, Argentina, Chile ...

    "Hey", you will remark, "how come you are not listing the USA and Canada?"

    I just love good questions ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Phil Kimble on Thu May 10 22:42:38 2018
    That sounds more like the fate of Mussolini half a century
    earlier. Ceausescu was executed by a firing squad.

    But he is lovingly remembered & celebrated as one of the Romania great leaders?

    No need to be sarcastic about it, I only wanted to put the facts right.

    The point is, who our enemy is today, might not be tomorrow. What we
    once thought to be true, we may discover to be a lie.

    I totally agree with you there, Phil!

    I completely admire the accomplishments of Hitler's Germany in the
    1930s.

    Once again, I totally agree. But I guess that is human nature for you, once you get the power megalomaniac lures in the background.

    earth, that is a little too extreme. The off thing is, I dont recall any stories of how the League of Nations stepped in & stopped the mass
    exodus of the Jewish people. Can someone explain to me what the European countries did to stop this?

    Now you're turning things around. The LoN was indeed a failure, but you cannot blame any European country for it's failure. It was a toothless tiger. In the words of Mussolini when they tried to stop him from targeting Red Cross medical tents during the second Italo-Abbessinian war:

    "The League is very well when sparrows shout, but no good at all when eagles
    fall out."

    Likewise, I completely agree in the concept of a socialist government. Unfortionately its always muffed up in the execution of it & never turns out good.

    Except for the "never" I agree once more. But like Churchill said about democracy: it's the worst form of government except for all others.

    There is alot of good in a Welfare State. But I don't make enough money
    to feed my family and your family too. So you better get off the couch
    & get a job!

    Well, no insurance expect you to profit from it monetarily, only giving you a safe blanket to sleep under. Once the disaster hits you, you are doomed unless you have made the payments to your insurance.

    So yeah, I think the Eu & Europe is full of a bunch of sissy-boys.

    You are talking about 48 completely different countries and cultures here --
    isn't that a wee bit too wide a brush?

    Because they do very little action to solve real issues but always pointing a finger & talking foul about those who do take a proactive stance against issues.

    Well, at least Sweden has done an amazing journey here, staying out of every
    war for more than 200 years. That way going from being an underdeveloped third world country slightly more than 100 years ago to becoming one of the richest and most developed countries on the planet. Staying out of any war at any cost sure seems profitable to us. When you call us sissies we can laugh all the way to the bank.

    YMMV...




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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu May 10 22:53:37 2018
    I completely admire the accomplishments of Hitler's Germany in the BF>PK> 1930s.

    Once again, I totally agree. But I guess that is human nature for you,
    once you get the power megalomaniac lures in the background.

    You make my stomach turn...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thu May 10 22:54:51 2018
    "Hey", you will remark, "how come you are not listing the USA and Canada?"

    I just love good questions ...

    Can the answer perhaps be e.g. M/S Saint Louis?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

    You forgot to include Canada in the shameful treatment of this refugee ship.


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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu May 10 22:56:23 2018
    You forgot to include Canada in the shameful treatment of this
    refugee ship.

    Oops, sorry, I see now that you didn't. Mea Culpa.


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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thu May 10 22:58:55 2018
    You make my stomach turn...

    Sorry about that. I hope that a pint of trappist beer can fix that for you.


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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thu May 10 23:28:28 2018
    You make my stomach turn...

    My turn now. You included Cuba in the "welcoming" list but they were actually the destination for the M/S st. Louise. It seems like corruption and other related political issues was the cause of the ship's faith, not so much USA:

    https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005267

    My turn to make my stomach turn. But I usually solve it with yoghurt. The authentic 10% fatty stuff rather than the low fat sugary stuffed shit that the food industry sells and contributes to western world obesity, that is.


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  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thu May 10 23:46:32 2018
    You make my stomach turn...

    Further reading about the St. Louise my stomach turns once more:

    http://tinyurl.com/j4lclsz

    Following the US government's refusal to permit the passengers to disembark,
    the St. Louis sailed back to Europe on June 6, 1939. The passengers did not return to Germany, however. Jewish organizations (particularly the Jewish Joint
    Distribution Committee) negotiated with four European governments to secure entry visas for the passengers:

    Great Britain took 288 passengers
    the Netherlands admitted 181 passengers
    Belgium took in 214 passengers
    and 224 passengers found at least temporary refuge in France.

    Of the 288 passengers admitted by Great Britain, all survived World War II save
    one, who was killed during an air raid in 1940.

    Of the 620 passengers who returned to continent, 87 (14%) managed to emigrate before the German invasion of Western Europe in May 1940.

    532 St. Louis passengers were trapped when Germany conquered Western Europe. Just over half, 278 survived the Holocaust.

    254 died: 84 who had been in Belgium;

    Belgium obviously had no love for Jews by then?

    84 who had found refuge in Holland

    and 86 who had been admitted to France.


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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Fri May 11 00:46:09 2018

    You make my stomach turn...

    Sorry about that. I hope that a pint of trappist beer can fix that for
    you.

    Glorifying Hitler's rule is disgusting, it was despiccable even from before day-1. Something like that I can see from an idiot in the USA, not from you.

    Trappist ale is not served in pints, but in 33cl chalices.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Fri May 11 00:50:20 2018
    "Hey", you will remark, "how come you are not listing the USA and
    Canada?"
    """""" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<+ BF>WD> I just love good questions ... !
    !
    Can the answer perhaps be e.g. M/S Saint Louis? !
    !
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis !
    !
    You forgot to include Canada in the shameful treatment of this refugee ! ship. !
    !
    I did not forget Canada >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+

    As an accredited researcher for the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC I was heavily involved in researching the fate of the passengers. One of the
    survivors after the war set up a fund to document the fate of every passenger on board that vessel. We found close to everybody ... including traces of those
    that dissappeared in the Holocaust anyway.

    It is blood-chilling how well the Nazis documented every person they shipped and as a consequence incomprehensible there are people who deny the genocide on
    Jews (and Roma). We know pretty detailed how many were shipped, where to, when and who came out alive.

    It's mathematics-101.

    To be very short, the US denied entrance to the refugees thereby sealing the fate of hundreds. When the Saint Louis left Havana it was followed by US warships with orders to "sink her" should she steer for an American port.

    A trip along the coast to Canada to enter the St.Lawrence and go to Montreal was also made impossible by Canada's "None are too many" policy.

    The ship was forced back to Europe and as the captain prepared to beach her near Land's End Belgium opened its borders and welcomed the ship. I think 938 people disembarked and were divided over the UK, France, Netherlands and Belgium.

    The ones in the UK were safe, from the 600+ that remained about 1/3 perished in
    the death camps.

    The archive documenting that is now available in Washington DC for historical research upon request.

    And for mr.Kimble ... it is worth reading about what Sweden did to save Jewish people ... it saved more than the US and Canada combined.

    The story of what happened to Danish Jews overnight is also worth reading...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to ROBERT BASHE on Thu May 10 16:46:00 2018
    On 05-09-18, BJöRN FELTEN said to ROBERT BASHE:

    Is Sweden immune to terrorist attacks,


    So it seems. The last one was more than a century ago (home brew). Maybe BF>we haven't made many enough Muslim enemies...?



    April, 2017:


    A hyjacked lorrie was deliberately driven into crowds along (long Swedish
    name; translation:) `Queen Street' before being crashed through a corner of an Ahlens department store. Five people were killed and 14 others injured. The police considered the attack an `act of terrorism'!A 39 year old rejected asylum seeker born in the `Soviet Union' and a citizen of Uzbekistan who expressed sympathy with Islamic State of Iraq, and the Levant (whatever the
    hel that is) was arrested for the crime. He had made a video in which he'd sworn allegiance to the Islamic State a daay before the attack.


    More than a `century ago'? April 2017....wasn't that just last month?





    ---
    *Durango b301 #PE*
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Lee Lofaso on Thu May 10 19:30:54 2018
    On 05/10/18, Lee Lofaso said the following...

    Hello Greg,

    Please keep in mind, that the USA was attacked

    Have you never wondered how come the USA, spending more on your
    military than the entire rest of the world, couldn't even defend you
    own capital and your economic centre from relatively slow flying
    commercial aeroplanes?

    Have you ever wondered why the USA does not have the same problem wit people being overrun by Muslim extremists, causing your people to los their culture, better check your own backyard, before pointing finger

    Your leaders are extremely docile, ours - not so much.

    It is not just Sweden, but also France, and Germany, etc.
    They have been invaded by a Muslim horde, that multiplies
    like rabbits as birth control is a no-no under Islam.

    Today, there are more mosques than churches in France, with
    far more adherents attending services. Their numbers are also
    increasing in Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, and elsewhere.

    In the US, the Trump administration has put on the brakes
    for Muslims who want to come here. How many Syrian refugees
    have been allowed to resettle here since Trump took office?
    I'll let you (and others) do your own research.

    The White House was never hit,

    The British burned it down, along with the entire city, during
    the War of 1812. But we are the best of friends now, having patched
    up our differences. Toronto has been rebuilt, along with DC. I
    think the Canadians got the better deal.

    it was most likely, on the list and part of the plan,

    Those who hijacked four passenger planes had no intention
    of landing them. We know the targets of three of those planes.
    The fourth target remains a mystery.

    but Americans on board sacrificed themselves to do what was necessary

    The president ordered it shot down. His orders were followed.
    Was it necessary? The president thought so.

    Shot down by the military? There was no military response, that I recall.

    You better realign your satellite dish you're getting news from a alternate universe.

    You forgetting the Todd Beamer element. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Beamer

    According to accounts of cell phone conversations, Beamer, along
    with Mark Bingham, Tom Burnett and Jeremy Glick, formed a plan to take the plane back from the hijackers. They were joined by other passengers, including Lou Nacke, Rich Guadagno, Alan Beaven, Honor Elizabeth Wainio, Linda Gronlund, and William Cashman, along with flight attendants Sandra Bradshaw and Cee Cee Ross-Lyles, in discussing their options and voting on a course of action, ultimately deciding to storm the cockpit and take over the plane. Beamer told Jefferson that the group was planning to "jump on" the hijackers and fly the plane into the ground before the hijackers' plan could be followed
    through. Beamer recited the Lord's Prayer and the 23rd Psalm with Jefferson, prompting others to join in. Beamer requested of Jefferson, "If I don't make it, please call my family and let them know how much I love them." After this, Jefferson heard muffled voices and Beamer clearly answering, "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll." These were Beamer's last words to Jefferson

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu May 10 20:27:34 2018
    On 05/10/18, Michiel van der Vlist said the following...

    Hello Lee,


    On Thursday May 10 2018 03:49, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> And now that Trump has blown the IRAN deal, Iran will have
    MvdV>> nuclear weapons within a year.

    If Iran gets a nuclear weapon they will have some explaining to do with the remaining countries still within the agreement, make no mistake Trump will
    come out in Grand fashion to say "Told Ya So."

    logical consequence.

    Not necessarily based on fact. The "deal" with Iran was done with si countries, the US position just one signatoree. Is the US still complying with the terms? If so, the deal may still be in place, despite Trump's action.

    While it is true that the US is only one of the signatories and that the other five could go on with the deal, this is just a theoretical option. If Trump extends the sanctions to all countries doing business with Iran
    - and it seems that he will - than it will be next to impossible for any country to have meaningful trade relations with Iran and so there will
    be no economic advantage for Iran to keep their part of the deal.

    Iran has shown that they are a menace to the Middle East, supporting
    terrorism in the region, launching ballistic missiles, chanting Death to America, even while there still was an agreement. Trump did the right thing, tearing up this agreement, was the right thing to do.

    Let's face it: the nuclear genie is out of he bottle. Has been for decades. Making a nuclear weapon is not all that difficult. The basic technology is publically available. Any sufficiently motivated country
    can do it. Iran surely can.

    They couldn't build a bird house, little alone a bomb, if they do they will answer to world for doing so.

    The only reason for a country to dispense with nuclear weapons is international treaties that reward them with economic advantages if they play along.

    Iran never plays along, Iran is looking for Iran make no mistake about that.

    Plus that North Korea has shown that having nuclear weapons pays off: it keeps the US at bay.

    Keeping the US at bay? bit(h please, better bow down on both knees.
    The United States is a Superpower.

    You news is out of date; it is what be seen as if you were looking through a looking glass that dates back 6 months or more. Its all old news.
    North Korea for the moment is on the verge of making peace with South Korea, They have released 3 American hostages, they are hostages no more as they are back home here in the USA,

    The meeting of President Donald Trump and Supreme Leader Kim Jong un
    will be in Singapore on June 12th.

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to TIM RICHARDSON on Fri May 11 04:13:11 2018
    April 16, 2007:

    Seung-Hui Cho, a senior at Virginia Tech, shot and killed 32 people and wounded 17 others in two separate attacks (another six people were injured escaping from classroom windows), approximately two hours apart, before committing suicide.

    If he had not been of South Korean origin, but from the Middle East, would that have been an act of terrorism as well?

    More than a `century ago'? April 2017....wasn't that just last month?

    I don't know what calender you are using -- here in Sweden we have the year 2018 now.


    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Fri May 11 06:38:45 2018
    Hello Greg,

    [..]

    it was most likely, on the list and part of the plan,

    Those who hijacked four passenger planes had no intention
    of landing them. We know the targets of three of those planes.
    The fourth target remains a mystery.

    but Americans on board sacrificed themselves to do what was GD>necessary

    The president ordered it shot down. His orders were followed.
    Was it necessary? The president thought so.

    Shot down by the military? There was no military response, that I recall.

    There were sightings of a military plane in the area when the
    crash occurred.

    You better realign your satellite dish you're getting news from a
    alternate
    universe.

    A military plane sighted in the same area as where the plane
    crashed gives reason to believe the military may have shot down
    the plane.

    You forgetting the Todd Beamer element. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Beamer

    You believe that fairy tale?

    According to accounts of cell phone conversations, Beamer, along
    with Mark Bingham, Tom Burnett and Jeremy Glick, formed a plan to take the plane back from the hijackers.

    Really? How did they manage to do that? The first clue that
    such an event did not happen is none of the eight pilots on the
    four planes "squawked" the 7500 hijack code. Imagine that. All
    the real pilots were in the dark as 19 Muslim hijackers broke
    into the cockpits. No wonder all planes were grounded for three
    days following the events of 9/11.

    They were joined by other passengers, including Lou Nacke, Rich Guadagno, Alan Beaven, Honor Elizabeth Wainio, Linda Gronlund,
    and William Cashman, along with flight attendants Sandra Bradshaw and Cee Cee Ross-Lyles, in discussing their options and voting on a course of action, ultimately deciding to storm the cockpit and take over the plane. Beamer told Jefferson that the group was planning to "jump on" the hijackers and fly the plane into the ground before the hijackers' plan could be followed through. Beamer recited the Lord's Prayer and the 23rd Psalm with Jefferson,
    prompting others to join in. Beamer requested of Jefferson, "If I don't
    make
    it, please call my family and let them know how much I love them." After this, Jefferson heard muffled voices and Beamer clearly answering, "Are
    you
    ready? Okay. Let's roll." These were Beamer's last words to Jefferson

    What a fanciful story. Too bad none of it is true.

    http://www.consensus911.org/point-pc-1/


    http://www.consensus911.org/point-pc-1a/


    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 09:29:38 2018
    Hello Ward!

    10 May 18 22:12, Ward Dossche wrote to Phil Kimble:

    The off thing is, I dont recall any stories of how
    the League of Natoons stepped in & stopped the mass exodus of the
    Jewish people. Can someone explain to me what the European countries
    did to stop this?

    Several European countries facilitated the Jewry fleeing
    Nazi-controlled territory.

    Can somebody explain to me why "stopping the mass exodus of the Jewish people" should have been the thing to do? It would have meant locking them up in their respective countries to wait for someone to kill them (which is, btw, pretty much the strategy many nations follow even today concerning refugees).
    As for the League of Nations... well, it was pretty powerless. Why didn't, e.g., the US ever join?

    But now that we're into "what-would-have-happened-if" stories... yesterday (10th of May) was the birthday of Gustav Stresemann. I think history might have
    been different if he didn't die that early.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 9:29AM up 124 days, 11:22, 9 users, load averages: 0.16, 0.16, 0.16

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: And the pastiche we've invented (2:240/12)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to TIM RICHARDSON on Fri May 11 10:59:56 2018

    More than a `century ago'? April 2017....wasn't that just last month?

    I would say that was last year ... Counting does not seem to be one of your greatest talents.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Gregory Deyss on Fri May 11 11:10:02 2018

    According to accounts of cell phone conversations, Beamer, along
    with Mark Bingham, Tom Burnett and Jeremy Glick, formed a plan to take
    the plane back from the hijackers.

    There exists not such an account.

    In the telecom industry with 2001 technology we tried to duplicate cellphone conversations from a jet flying at low altitude at about 850km/h.

    Couldn't do anything except some garbled stuff. Transmitter is hopping from cell to cell too fast to be effective.

    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible at that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Gregory Deyss on Fri May 11 11:18:18 2018


    If Iran gets a nuclear weapon they will have some explaining to do with
    the remaining countries still within the agreement, make no mistake Trump will come out in Grand fashion to say "Told Ya So."

    The only thing that came out of this is the US showing the rest of the world that it's an unreliable partner. You cannot make agreements with it. The US's word is without meaning or value.

    They couldn't build a bird house, little alone a bomb, if they do they
    will answer to world for doing so.

    Building a nuclear weapon is peanuts. Getting the material is a problem, delivering it another. Plus you need to test it at least once.

    And do not forget, Israel has nukes.

    Iran never plays along, Iran is looking for Iran make no mistake about that.

    So what is "America First" then?

    The United States is a Superpower.

    "was" ... the arms race took its toll also on the American military.

    A superpower beaten in the rice-paddies and in the deserts of the Middle East ... the Taliban are not beaten, Al Quaida is not beaten. You can't even deal with an ragtag-group of non-regulars.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Gerrit Kuehn on Fri May 11 11:57:18 2018
    Gerrit,

    Can somebody explain to me why "stopping the mass exodus of the Jewish people" should have been the thing to do? It would have meant locking
    them up in their respective countries to wait for someone to kill them (which is, btw, pretty much the strategy many nations follow even today concerning refugees).

    I have no answer and your question is very painful.

    In 1938 there was the "Conference of Evian" to discuss "the problem" of Jewish migration after it became clear there was "a problem".

    Delegates from 32 countries met at Evian. During the nine-day meeting, delegate
    after delegate rose to express sympathy for the refugees. But most countries, including the United States and Britain, offered excuses for not letting in more refugees.

    Responding to Evian, the German Nazi government was able to state with great pleasure how "astounding" it was that foreign countries criticized Germany for their treatment of the Jews, but none of them wanted to open the doors to them when the opportunity presented itself."

    The outcome was that the majority of remaining German and Austrian Jews became trapped.

    The similarity with today's situation with refugees from Syria and where-ever is striking as you very well remarked.

    The Conference of Evian can be Googled.

    Some 15 years ago I started in-depth reearch to write a book about the Conference of Evian and eventually started receiving anonymous foreign calls that persuing that initiative was not such a grand idea.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 06:33:20 2018

    On 2018 May 11 11:10:02, you wrote to Gregory Deyss:

    According to accounts of cell phone conversations, Beamer, along with
    Mark Bingham, Tom Burnett and Jeremy Glick, formed a plan to take the
    plane back from the hijackers.

    There exists not such an account.

    true and false... the account does exist but it is not from ""cell phones""... too many people are co-opting that term like so many other terms have been co-opted...

    In the telecom industry with 2001 technology we tried to duplicate cellphone conversations from a jet flying at low altitude at about
    850km/h.

    Couldn't do anything except some garbled stuff. Transmitter is hopping
    from
    cell to cell too fast to be effective.

    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible at that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    what do you mean by "GSM yes, North America no"?? are you saying GSM could do it? isn't GSM ""cell phone""?? are you reversing your statement above?

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Santa Claus has the right idea ... Visit people only once a year.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Fri May 11 14:22:01 2018
    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible ml>WD> at that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    what do you mean by "GSM yes, North America no"?? are you saying GSM
    could do it? isn't GSM ""cell phone""?? are you reversing your statement above?

    Reread the message carefully, we're talking cullular telephony 18 years ago.

    Around that time there was the annual ITU-meeting in Minneapolis. To make certain non-North-Americans could use their handhelds, Deutsche Telekom installed a 30-day only antenna in the hotel and meeting venue so world-wide GSM-users could make and receive calls.

    GSM is digital and funtioned at a different frequency than the American (I think analog handheld) system at the time.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Gregory Deyss on Fri May 11 13:50:32 2018
    Hello Gregory,

    On Thursday May 10 2018 20:27, you wrote to me:

    And now that Trump has blown the IRAN deal, Iran will
    have nuclear weapons within a year.

    If Iran gets a nuclear weapon they will have some explaining to do
    with the remaining countries still within the agreement,

    What more is there to explain than "if you are unable or unwilling to keep your
    part of the deal, we are no longer bound by it either." ?

    make no mistake Trump will come out in Grand fashion to say "Told Ya
    So."

    That did not stop North Kores and it will not stop Iran. it will just make them
    more determined.

    Iran has shown that they are a menace to the Middle East, supporting terrorism in the region, launching ballistic missiles, chanting Death
    to America, even while there still was an agreement. Trump did the
    right thing, tearing up this agreement, was the right thing to do.

    So you say. It did not stop North Korea, I will not stop Iran. Trump let the genie out of the bottle.

    Let's face it: the nuclear genie is out of he bottle. Has been
    for decades. Making a nuclear weapon is not all that difficult.
    The basic technology is publically available. Any sufficiently
    motivated country can do it. Iran surely can.

    They couldn't build a bird house, little alone a bomb, if they do they will answer to world for doing so.

    That's what they said about North Korea too.

    The only reason for a country to dispense with nuclear weapons is
    international treaties that reward them with economic advantages
    if they play along.

    Iran never plays along, Iran is looking for Iran make no mistake about that.

    Iran has kept her part of the deal, It is the USA that is the unreliable party.

    Plus that North Korea has shown that having nuclear weapons pays
    off: it keeps the US at bay.

    Keeping the US at bay? bit(h please, better bow down on both knees.
    The United States is a Superpower.

    I have said it many times before and I will say it again: Right of might only works for the strongest. No one stays the strongest forever. And then there is the bill.

    You news is out of date; it is what be seen as if you were looking
    through a looking glass that dates back 6 months or more. Its all old news. North Korea for the moment is on the verge of making peace with South Korea, They have released 3 American hostages, they are hostages
    no more as they are back home here in the USA,

    Yes, now that North Korea has the bomb and the means to deliver.

    The meeting of President Donald Trump and Supreme Leader Kim Jong un
    will be in Singapore on June 12th.

    And they will talk nuclear disarmement. I wonder how far Trump will go. Will he
    just be prepaired to part with his nuclear weapons, or will he also be prepaired to let go of the US ballistic missiles?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu May 10 12:41:58 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Wednesday May 09 2018 at 12:16:

    You think. I learned both languages, and know the differences.

    See my previous message. I had to learn German the hard way. It was torture. Russian can hardly be worse.

    You think. But I _know_.

    Had the US not started the cold war and left Europe instead, the
    aftermath would have been completely different.

    Of course. The satellites of the former USSR would then have been Belgium, The Netherlands and France.

    and the rivalries between the USSR (Stalin) and the States.

    Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been ni such
    rivalry.

    You must be joking, Michiel, or simply ignoring hisztory.

    Don't confuse the present situation, or that just after 1990, with
    Stalin's USSR.

    Stalin was not a nice guy, but he never was a threat to Western
    Europe.

    Of _course_ not ;-) That's something you can say now, after the fact. But there
    are a lot of people who fled from the satellite countries in eastern Europe who
    might disagree.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu May 10 12:47:08 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Wednesday May 09 2018 at 12:24:

    The same could have happened with Russia and Europe. If only the USA
    not been so eager to make Russia into an enemy...

    You must be joking. Or did the Americans buid the Berlin wall, or station armed
    guards to prevent people from escaping to the west? I personally think you'e talking with emotions rather than facts. The Americans may not be perfect, but at least you can write freely here without fear that the secret police will be beating your door down tomorrow.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Thu May 10 12:57:14 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Bj”rn Felten on Wednesday May 09 2018 at 23:06:

    Depends. If the 2001 "attack" was orchestrated by the GWB
    administration, as many evidence point to, they surely wouldn't want
    to destroy the home of their patreon.

    He was reading children's books in Florida, remember?

    As a matter of fact in Sarasota, around 12 km from where I was staying in Bradenton. And for a couple of days we were all nervous because there was a news blackout regarding his whereabouts, and those of the vice president. These
    "conspiracy" theries are common everywhere, and have no basis in fact. There are still people around who think Castro and/or the CIA arranged for Kennedy's murder.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Lee Lofaso on Thu May 10 13:02:48 2018
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Michiel van der Vlist on Thursday May 10 2018 at 03:49:

    Dropping atomic bombs on Japan was totally unnecessary. Truman did it
    as a warning to the USSR, not as a legitimate means for ending the war
    in the Pacific.

    And to save untold American and Japanese lives if an invasion had been necessary. Reprehansible, isn't it? ;-/

    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in the
    Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated.

    Had it? Up until that time, neither the emperor nor his military were of that opinion. Try sometime reading about the attempt of the military to prevent broadcasting of the emperor's speech to the nation calling for admission of defeat. It had been recorded on records the previous day, and the records had to be smuggled out of the palace. The phrase he used, to "think the unthinkable", was surely not taken lightly. Nor was his reference to the atomic
    bombs in his speech.

    After WWII, most countries in Europe needed help as their economies
    were in ruins. The US halped, and so did the USSR.

    Sure... the USSR "helped" by dismantling much of the industry in eastern Europe
    and sending it back home as reparations - where it unfortunately often enough rusted and rotted. That's why East Germany was so prosperous, and West Germany so poor after the war ;-/

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Lee Lofaso on Thu May 10 13:15:54 2018
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Michiel van der Vlist on Thursday May 10 2018 at 03:49:

    MvdV>> It is my understanding that telling their employees when they may
    MvdV>> go to the toilet is standard procedure with Lidl. A German
    MvdV>> supermarket chain...

    You gotta go when you gotta go. It's that simple.

    Aside from which, employees are always given "toilet breaks" in Germany. The times thery take tham are generally left up to them, except when something really urgent is in progress. Does Michiel really think that - in Germany with strict labor laws - such behavior would not long since have been challenged in court?

    The Russian mentality is not that of the west,

    MvdV>> There is no such thing as "the western mentality".

    And yet, that is what many have been taught to believe.

    Nor what history teaches - most - of us.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Lee Lofaso on Thu May 10 13:21:16 2018
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Bj”rn Felten on Thursday May 10 2018 at 03:49:

    The White House was never hit,

    No, but the Pentagon was.

    One of the walls was hit. By a missile, not a plane. Of course, some folks argue the plane was used as a guided missile. But that is not
    the same thing as being a missile. Do note the difference.

    As you should. There are CCTV videos of the incident.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Lee Lofaso on Thu May 10 13:24:38 2018
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Gregory Deyss on Thursday May 10 2018 at 03:50:

    Your leaders are extremely docile, ours - not so much.

    It is not just Sweden, but also France, and Germany, etc. They have
    been invaded by a Muslim horde, that multiplies like rabbits as birth control is a no-no under Islam.

    You're thinking of the Catholic Church.

    The fourth target remains a mystery.

    but Americans on board sacrificed themselves to do what was
    necessary.

    The president ordered it shot down. His orders were followed. Was it necessary? The president thought so.

    No, it was Dick Cheny who gave the order, but it ewas never carried out becaus there were no fighters in the air near the flight at that time. Gregory is correct.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to TIM RICHARDSON on Fri May 11 17:00:18 2018
    TIM RICHARDSON wrote to ROBERT BASHE on Thursday May 10 2018 at 16:46:

    Is Sweden immune to terrorist attacks,

    There was a question mark at the end of this.

    So it seems. The last one was more than a century ago (home brew).
    Maybe we haven't made many enough Muslim enemies...?

    More than a `century ago'? April 2017....wasn't that just last month?

    No. last year in April. This is meanwhile 2018. I have meanwhile not heard of any concentration of terror attacks in Scandanavia, with the exception of the insane Andreas Brevnik in Norway, who was by no means a muslim. Quite the contrary.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 17:05:30 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Gregory Deyss on Friday May 11 2018 at 11:10:

    According to accounts of cell phone conversations, Beamer, along with
    Mark Bingham, Tom Burnett and Jeremy Glick, formed a plan to take the
    plane back from the hijackers.

    There exists not such an account.

    So what other explanation do you have for how the passengers became aware of the other highjackings? Or did they simply decide to risk a suicide mission to retake the plane (without a pilot)? That's hard to believe. The other passengers in highjacked planes thought they had "merely" been highjacked and would survive. Why would anyone want to retake a plane - without pilot - with the result that everyone would die in a subsequent crash?

    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible
    at that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    Maybe, but see above. And don't discount the possibility that the plane had a connection to the network.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 17:11:02 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Gregory Deyss on Friday May 11 2018 at 11:18:

    The only thing that came out of this is the US showing the rest of the world that it's an unreliable partner. You cannot make agreements with
    it. The US's word is without meaning or value.

    Don't simply assume Trump speaks for the USA. He has a lot of internal opposition.

    They couldn't build a bird house, little alone a bomb, if they do
    they will answer to world for doing so.

    "They" being the Iranians in this case? I think you underestimate them. Remember India? Remember Pakistan?

    Building a nuclear weapon is peanuts. Getting the material is a
    problem, delivering it another. Plus you need to test it at least
    once.

    As far as "building" is concerned, I could do that (in theory) based on descriptions I've read. But din't ask me for details. And as far as the material is concerned, where are the uranium deposits in India and Pakistan? They got their fissible material the same as anyone else: buy it on the market.
    And as far as tests, just take a look at North Korea. But NK has no threatening
    neighbor like Israel, armed to the teeth and ready to fight.

    All of this is pretty blue-eyed as far as I'm concerned.

    And do not forget, Israel has nukes.

    Probably, but never tested, confirmed or denied. Israel's strength lies at least in part in this uncertainty.

    Iran never plays along, Iran is looking for Iran make no mistake
    about that.

    Maybe.

    So what is "America First" then?

    Roughly the same as "Iran first", I guess. Does any country think differently?

    The United States is a Superpower.

    "was" ... the arms race took its toll also on the American military.

    Is. You ignore the effect on the USSR.

    A superpower beaten in the rice-paddies and in the deserts of the
    Middle East ... the Taliban are not beaten, Al Quaida is not beaten.
    You can't even deal with an ragtag-group of non-regulars.

    Indivual guerillas or terrorist groups are near-impossible to catch or eliminate before thy act. And that is no reflection on the USA. It is true for every government. Look at Nigeria, for example.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 17:23:38 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Gerrit Kuehn on Friday May 11 2018 at 11:57:

    The outcome was that the majority of remaining German and Austrian
    Jews became trapped.

    The similarity with today's situation with refugees from Syria and where-ever is striking as you very well remarked.

    Have a bad day, Ward? The difference is, of course, that there are no extermination camps in Syria, and that the central government has no such control over its territory.

    The Conference of Evian can be Googled.

    As can the Sykes-Picot agreement. Mere paper, as history has shown. It's no secret that many western countries ignored the plight of the jews before 1938, but that had no effect on the Nazi plans for the "final solution". Look for the
    "Wannsee Conference". Eichmann's minutes of the conference - the only copy not destroyed by the end of the war - are quite interesting.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 11:37:08 2018

    On 2018 May 11 14:22:00, you wrote to me:

    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible
    at that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    what do you mean by "GSM yes, North America no"?? are you saying GSM
    could do it? isn't GSM ""cell phone""?? are you reversing your
    statement above?

    Reread the message carefully, we're talking cullular telephony 18 years ago.

    i know... i had a cell phone at that time... one of the early flip phones about
    the size of a deck of cards and two decks long... the flip cover could have been made better and stronger but it worked... the phone was for business and because we sold them we had them as demos... they had those sim cards in them... other phones that we had been asked to sell did not... i thin kwe saw the light fairly early ;) anyway, there were two competing cellular models here... one with the sim card and one without... IIRC, the one with the sim card was GSM and it is still used by some, today...

    anecdote:
    an older woman came into our computer and technology store one day... she was crying and carrying the pieces of her crushed cell phone... while, she explained what happened, i removed the sim card from the wreckage and found it was intact... i reached down into the glass display cabinet where we were standing and pulled out a new one of our phones... i checked the battery and put her sim card into the phone... she's still explaining stuff... the new phone is sitting there on the top of the cabinet, turned on, with her sim in it
    when she finishes... i ask her what her phone number was and stepped back two or three steps into our workshop area doorway... beside me is one of our office
    phones so i hit speaker and dialed her phone number... she kinda jumped when the phone in front of her rang... i told her to answer it and just smiled real big... she hung up the phone and i showed her that all her contacts were still there... no cameras in phones back then so no pictures to worry about... when she realized that all she needed to do was buy a new phone and not a whole new contract with another large deposit and such, she started crying all over again... this time in joy... i think the phone i sold her was like $40US or $50US... she brought me a home made apple pie the next day... it was still warm! :grin:

    the sim cards that came with the phones we sold? they were for the cell company
    that eventually became Cellular One... after some months, newer phones did not have the sim cards in the package with them... they became a separate purchase for those that already had sim-capable phones...
    /anecdote:

    Around that time there was the annual ITU-meeting in Minneapolis. To
    make certain non-North-Americans could use their handhelds, Deutsche Telekom installed a 30-day only antenna in the hotel and meeting venue
    so world-wide GSM-users could make and receive calls.

    GSM is digital and funtioned at a different frequency than the
    American (I think analog handheld) system at the time.

    yes, i'm aware of those... i think the above situation was more along the lines
    that different freqs were used elsewhere than here...that's what the antennas with transmitter/receiver units were for... they got special permission to use those other freqs during that time period ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... That was Zen, this is Tao.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Robert Bashe on Fri May 11 18:42:18 2018
    Hello Robert!

    10 May 18 13:02, Robert Bashe wrote to Lee Lofaso:

    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in the
    Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated.

    Had it?

    Some people think so. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_an d_Nagasaki>

    ---
    The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.
    - Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet

    The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons ... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
    - Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950

    The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.
    - Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri May 11 09:05:47 2018
    Re: What if USA had stayed home after WWII?
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Phil Kimble on Tue May 08 2018 12:21 am

    If the USA had just left after WWII,
    nothing would have happened. No cold war, no Berlin wall, and Russia might have been part of the EU by now.

    And how many would have starved?
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Robert Bashe on Fri May 11 09:15:10 2018
    Re: What if USA had stayed home after WWII?
    By: Robert Bashe to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue May 08 2018 11:15 am

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of continental Europe.

    Up 'til then, Stalin seemed like an accomodating, live-and-let-live kinda guy. I'm sure he'd want a Pax Europa embracing all cultures and politics.
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Janis Kracht@1:261/38 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 15:52:00 2018
    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible at that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    We saw the live reports of the twin towers falling and the attack on the Pentagon by those who had commandeered flight 93.. and yes everyone later found
    out about the 3 passengers who did indeed try to stop the hijackers. There are transcripts of all this, I'm sure you can find them online.. here's one link: SEPT. 11, 2002 NYTimes report: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8 &ved=0ahUKEwj-w_y8n_7aAhWlrVkKHeRiD48QFgiHATAN&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.co m%2F2002%2F09%2F11%2Fus%2Fflight-93-refusing-to-give-in-without-a-fight.html&us g=AOvVaw3ebTlV3653jiaMJlf6MKla

    or
    https://tinyurl.com/y95m9uh7

    Also:

    [...]
    "Cell phones and in-plane credit card phones played a major role during and after the attack, starting with hijacked passengers who called family or notified the authorities about what was happening. Passengers and crew who made
    calls include: Sandra Bradshaw, Todd Beamer, Tom Burnett, Mark Bingham, Peter Hanson, Jeremy Glick, Barbara K. Olson, Renee May, Madeline Amy Sweeney, Betty Ong, Robert Fangman, Brian David Sweeney, and Ed Felt. Innocent occupants aboard United Airlines Flight 93 were able to assess their situation based on these conversations and plan a revolt that resulted in the aircraft crashing. According to the commission staff: "Their actions saved the lives of countless others, and may have saved either the U.S. Capitol or the White House from destruction."[4]

    According to the 9/11 Commission Report, 13 passengers from Flight 93 made a total of over 30 calls to both family and emergency personnel (twenty-two confirmed air phone calls, two confirmed cell phone and eight not specified in the report). Brenda Raney, Verizon Wireless spokesperson, said that Flight 93 was supported by several cell sites.[5] There were reportedly three phone calls
    from Flight 11, five from Flight 175, and three calls from Flight 77. Two calls
    from these flights were recorded, placed by flight attendants: Betty Ong on Flight 11 and CeeCee Lyles on Flight 93 [6] Alexa Graf, an AT&T spokesperson, said it was almost a fluke that the calls reached their destinations.[5] Marvin
    Sirbu, professor of Engineering and Public Policy at Carnegie Mellon University
    said on September 14, 2001, that "The fact of the matter is that cell phones can work in almost all phases of a commercial flight."[7] Other industry experts said that it is possible to use cell phones with varying degrees of success during the ascent and descent of commercial airline flights.[7]

    After each of the hijacked aircraft struck the World Trade Center, people inside the towers made calls to family and loved ones; for the victims, this was their last communication. Other callers directed their pleas for help to 9-1-1. Over nine hours of the 9-1-1 calls were eventually released after petitioning by The New York Times and families of the WTC victims. In 2001, cell phones did not yet have texting or photography capabilities that came by the mid-2000s."
    [...]
    References:
    [...]
    4. Lewis, Carol Weiss; Stuart Gilman (2005-03-11). The ethics challenge in public service: a problem-solving guide. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 9780787967567.
    5. Betsy Harter (November 1, 2001). "Final Contact". Telephony Online. 6. Summers, Anthony; Swan, Robbyn (2011). The Eleventh Day: The Full Story of 9/11
    and Osama bin Laden. New York: Ballantine. pp. 113-,476n. ISBN 978-1400066599. 7. Romero, Simon (September 14, 2001). "After the Attacks: Communications; New Perspective on the Issue Of Cell Phone Use in Planes". The New York Times. Retrieved July 8, 2009. "According to industry experts, it is possible to use cell phones with varying success during the ascent and descent of commercial airline flights, although the difficulty of maintaining a signal appears to increase as planes gain altitude." [...]

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Fri May 11 22:41:14 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Thursday May 10 2018 12:41, you wrote to me:

    You think. I learned both languages, and know the differences.

    See my previous message. I had to learn German the hard way. It
    was torture. Russian can hardly be worse.

    You think. But I _know_.

    You think you know...

    Had the US not started the cold war and left Europe instead, the
    aftermath would have been completely different.

    Of course. The satellites of the former USSR would then have been
    Belgium, The Netherlands and France.

    Yeah, yeah and we'd all be speaking Russian. I have heard the mantra. As I already wrote: The idea that Russia wanted to invade Western Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    and the rivalries between the USSR (Stalin) and the States.

    Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been no such
    rivalry.

    You must be joking, Michiel, or simply ignoring hisztory.

    I am noty joking, I am dead serious. And what history? Your convincion that Russia woukld have invaded Western Europe is solely based on the conviction that they are tha bad guys.

    Don't confuse the present situation, or that just after 1990,
    with Stalin's USSR.

    Stalin was not a nice guy, but he never was a threat to Western
    Europe.

    Of _course_ not ;-) That's something you can say now, after the fact.
    But there are a lot of people who fled from the satellite countries in eastern Europe who might disagree.

    That does not make sense, If those regugees thought Stalin was a threat to Western Europem fleeing TO western Europe is a bit illogical don't you think?

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Fri May 11 22:49:07 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Thursday May 10 2018 12:47, you wrote to me:

    The same could have happened with Russia and Europe. If only the
    USA not been so eager to make Russia into an enemy...

    You must be joking. Or did the Americans buid the Berlin wall,

    The wall was build by the East. Which ia not all that logical if one has plans to invade the West. The wall would be a hurdle for the invaders.

    or station armed guards to prevent people from escaping to the west?

    The wall was build AFTER it was clear that the US was not going to leave any time soon. I say that if the US had not been so eager to make Russia into enemy, there would have been no wall.

    I personally think you'e talking with emotions rather than facts.

    I think you are the one talking with emotions, You are stuck with your fixation
    of good guys and bad guys. That the US ara the good guys and all their opponenet are the bad guy...

    The Americans may not be perfect, but at least you can write freely
    here without fear that the secret police will be beating your door
    down tomorrow.

    Tell that to the people in the Gitmo Hotel.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Janis Kracht on Fri May 11 23:51:12 2018
    According to the 9/11 Commission Report

    Aren't you old enough to distrust all those Commission Reports?

    What did the report for instance have to say about the remarkable fact that an almost undamaged passport from one of the hijackers was found in the rubble of the Twin Towers, while not a single piece of human remains from the planes was found.

    And of course, there's the piece from one of the plane's engines that several independent experts says does not come from any of the planes.

    Not to mention that several people with only a few hours of training in small sports planes could fly those four planes the way that they did. Many experienced airline pilots have stated that they don't think that they could have done it.

    There are still far to many unanswered questions about the entire "attack" that I guess only the most docile US citizen will accept the official "19 Muslims did this to us".

    Well, several information sources states that at least six of the alleged hijackers are still alive and have never even left Saudi Arabia in their entire
    life...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kurt Weiske on Sat May 12 00:02:34 2018
    Hello Kurt,

    On Friday May 11 2018 09:05, you wrote to me:

    Re: What if USA had stayed home after WWII?
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Phil Kimble on Tue May 08 2018 12:21 am

    If the USA had just left after WWII,
    nothing would have happened. No cold war, no Berlin wall, and
    Russia might have been part of the EU by now.

    And how many would have starved?

    42.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri May 11 18:14:00 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on 05-11-18 22:41 <=-


    On Thursday May 10 2018 12:41, you wrote to me:

    You think. I learned both languages, and know the differences.

    See my previous message. I had to learn German the hard way. It
    was torture. Russian can hardly be worse.

    You think. But I _know_.

    You think you know...

    Had the US not started the cold war and left Europe instead, the
    aftermath would have been completely different.

    Of course. The satellites of the former USSR would then have been
    Belgium, The Netherlands and France.

    Yeah, yeah and we'd all be speaking Russian. I have heard the mantra.
    As I already wrote: The idea that Russia wanted to invade Western
    Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    and the rivalries between the USSR (Stalin) and the States.

    Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been no such
    rivalry.

    There may have been other factors that contridict your assemsment.

    In 1948, the Treaty of Brussels was signed by Belguim, The Netherlands, Luxembourg, France and the UK. As you know it was a mutual defence treaty against the Soviet threat at the start of the cold war. Unfortunatly, it was a paper tiger. Neither the US or the USSR have clean hands in this as the old saying "to the victors go the spoils", each side wanting to protect the section of Germany it had 'defeated'. The Soviets threat was immediate with the Berlin Blockade as well as the Czechoslovak coup d'etat. Next came formation of NATO with ALL parties involved in the original treaty becoming members. Question, would NATO have existed without the two events listed above? Would Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria join East Germany as a satellite? The only time the US became vested was well after the original treaty was signed. The writing was on the wall (pardon the pun) with regard to Europe seeing the Soviet threat.


    I am noty joking, I am dead serious. And what history? Your convincion that Russia woukld have invaded Western Europe is solely based on the conviction that they are tha bad guys.

    As stated above, they did have an agressive streak.

    Of _course_ not ;-) That's something you can say now, after the fact.
    But there are a lot of people who fled from the satellite countries in eastern Europe who might disagree.

    That does not make sense, If those regugees thought Stalin was a threat to Western Europem fleeing TO western Europe is a bit illogical don't
    you think?

    Not if you were in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria or East Berlin.


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Sat May 12 00:33:44 2018

    Bob,

    There exists not such an account.

    So what other explanation do you have for how the passengers became aware of the other highjackings?

    Payphone by satellite. I remember each seat, even in economy, to have an individual phone, Pick it up, swipe your credit card, wait for dial tone, dial number. It was horrendously expensive, but it worked. Sometimes not.

    Why would anyone want to retake a plane -
    without pilot - with the result that everyone would die in a subsequent crash?

    One of the passengers was a general aviation pilot, that's enough skill to land
    an airliner on a good day.

    Maybe, but see above. And don't discount the possibility that the plane
    had a connection to the network.

    Via satellite yes, cellular no.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Janis Kracht on Sat May 12 00:54:13 2018

    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible JK>WD> at that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    We saw the live reports of the twin towers falling and the attack on the Pentagon by those who had commandeered flight 93..

    Guess what, we also saw the Twin Towers fall on TV in Europe ... live ... you did not see "live" an attack on the Pentagon.

    Cell phone calls? Never happened, anyone knowledgeable in 2001's state of technology will be able to confirm.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 18:25:13 2018
    On 05/11/18, Ward Dossche said the following...

    In the telecom industry with 2001 technology we tried to duplicate cellphone conversations from a jet flying at low altitude at about 850km/h.
    Couldn't do anything except some garbled stuff. Transmitter is hopping from cell to cell too fast to be effective.

    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible at that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    Whats with these ridiculous theory's? What I have written about the late Todd Beamer is a matter of public record via Wikipedia, so what? Their many references are all lying? Ms. Beamer was even honored on behalf of her late husband's sacrifice by George W. Bush at the State of the Union during his time as President. This is complete bizarro-world with these alternate theory's.

    You know what I think, as to reason why people have a different account of this matter, I think they are trying to diminish just how Great we are as a people, to make themselves feel better, keep trying.

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Sat May 12 00:12:38 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Friday May 11 2018 17:11, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    The only thing that came out of this is the US showing the rest of
    the world that it's an unreliable partner. You cannot make
    agreements with it. The US's word is without meaning or value.

    Don't simply assume Trump speaks for the USA. He has a lot of internal opposition.

    It doesn't matter, if it is Trump, the Congress or whatever power that be in the US. The damage is done and it won't be repaired any time soon. The US is an
    unreliable partnerm they can not be trusted to keep its word. And as the saying
    goes, trust comes on foot and leaves on a horse.

    And do not forget, Israel has nukes.

    Probably, but never tested, confirmed or denied.

    Most likely tested in cohorts with South Africa before the latter voluntarily gave up theirs.

    Israel's strength lies at least in part in this uncertainty.

    Without the US' unconditional support of the US, Israel would be no stronger than Pakistan.

    So what is "America First" then?

    Roughly the same as "Iran first", I guess. Does any country think differently?

    Not every country sees it as a zero sum game...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Janis Kracht@1:261/38 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 20:19:58 2018
    Guess what, we also saw the Twin Towers fall on TV in Europe ... live ... you

    Of course...it was all over the world...

    did not see "live" an attack on the Pentagon.

    No one did that I know of, but we saw 'the reports' which is what I said... and
    huge plumes of smoke.

    Cell phone calls? Never happened, anyone knowledgeable in 2001's state of

    Sure, you know everything :) :) but I don't buy it...

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Ward Dossche on Fri May 11 18:58:59 2018
    On 05/11/18, Ward Dossche said the following...

    So what is "America First" then?

    Definitely not the same as Iran's intentions, we do not support mayhem in the Middle East, nor to we fund Islamic Jihad with the America First agenda.

    I am well aware of what was done with the Carter Administration with Zbigniew Brzezinski most known for his ill-advised policy forays turned out to be funding the rebel Mujahideen group in hopes that they would drag the Soviet Union in a long, costly quagmire in the Middle East.

    But this has nothing to do with Trump and his America First agenda.


    The United States is a Superpower.
    "was" ... the arms race took its toll also on the American military.

    A superpower beaten in the rice-paddies and in the deserts of the
    You can't even deal with an ragtag-group of non-regulars.

    Your information is out of date and or just plain wrong.
    The media is said to be 90 percent negative when it comes to talking about President Trump.

    It is now Five Top Isis 'scumbags' that have been captured by the U.S. Military.

    Isis is dissolving faster then the kool-aid powder that you seem to be consuming.

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Gerrit Kuehn on Sat May 12 08:20:40 2018
    Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Robert Bashe on Friday May 11 2018 at 18:42:

    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in the
    Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated.

    Had it?

    Some people think so.

    [...]

    And the other side? Have you read the transcription and translation of the Emperor's remarks in his admission of defeat? I have, and know the background. The decision to surrender was not shared in Japan, and even the Emperor was not
    totally in charge of things.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Kurt Weiske on Sat May 12 08:30:34 2018
    Kurt Weiske wrote to Robert Bashe on Friday May 11 2018 at 09:15:

    True. and you'd be speaking Russian. Along with the rest of
    continental Europe.

    Up 'til then, Stalin seemed like an accomodating, live-and-let-live
    kinda guy. I'm sure he'd want a Pax Europa embracing all cultures and politics.

    Do you believe in Santa Claus, too?

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat May 12 08:34:08 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Friday May 11 2018 at 22:41:

    You think. I learned both languages, and know the differences.

    See my previous message. I had to learn German the hard way. It was
    torture. Russian can hardly be worse.

    You think. But I _know_.

    You think you know...

    Michiel, I _know_ Russian and German. You don't.

    Had the US not started the cold war and left Europe instead, the
    aftermath would have been completely different.

    Of course. The satellites of the former USSR would then have been
    Belgium, The Netherlands and France.

    Yeah, yeah and we'd all be speaking Russian. I have heard the mantra.
    As I already wrote: The idea that Russia wanted to invade Western
    Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    Sure. And Stalin was just a nice old grandfather ;-(

    and the rivalries between the USSR (Stalin) and the States.

    Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been no such
    rivalry.

    You must be joking, Michiel, or simply ignoring hisztory.

    I am noty joking, I am dead serious. And what history? Your convincion
    that Russia woukld have invaded Western Europe is solely based on the conviction that they are tha bad guys.

    No, on facts. What was to prevent that happening except fore the armeds forces of the western allies?

    Don't confuse the present situation, or that just after 1990, with RB>>>> Stalin's USSR.

    Stalin was not a nice guy, but he never was a threat to Western
    Europe.

    Of _course_ not ;-) That's something you can say now, after the fact.
    But there are a lot of people who fled from the satellite countries
    in eastern Europe who might disagree.

    That does not make sense, If those regugees thought Stalin was a
    threat to Western Europem fleeing TO western Europe is a bit illogical don't you think?

    No, not as long as western Europe was protected by armed forces of the USA, Britain and France.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat May 12 08:53:02 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Friday May 11 2018 at 22:49:

    The same could have happened with Russia and Europe. If only the USA MV>>> not been so eager to make Russia into an enemy...

    You must be joking. Or did the Americans buid the Berlin wall,

    The wall was build by the East. Which ia not all that logical if one
    has plans to invade the West. The wall would be a hurdle for the
    invaders.

    Ypu confuse 1961 with 1945.

    or station armed guards to prevent people from escaping to the west?

    The wall was build AFTER it was clear that the US was not going to
    leave any time soon. I say that if the US had not been so eager to
    make Russia into enemy, there would have been no wall.

    Of course not. Then entire Berlin would be part of eastern Germany. And probably not only east Berlin.

    I personally think you'e talking with emotions rather than facts.

    I think you are the one talking with emotions, You are stuck with your fixation of good guys and bad guys. That the US ara the good guys and
    all their opponenet are the bad guy...

    I could cite Alexander Dubcek and his fate, but I think you must be aware of it. Now tell me the Americans, with their allies, invaded a buffer state, deposed the government and executed the leader. Go right ahead.

    The Americans may not be perfect, but at least you can write freely
    here without fear that the secret police will be beating your door
    down tomorrow.

    Tell that to the people in the Gitmo Hotel.

    Or for that matter, those in Dutch prisons. Get serious.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat May 12 08:54:16 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Saturday May 12 2018 at 00:12:

    Don't simply assume Trump speaks for the USA. He has a lot of
    internal opposition.

    It doesn't matter, if it is Trump, the Congress or whatever power that
    be in the US. The damage is done and it won't be repaired any time
    soon. The US is an unreliable partnerm they can not be trusted to keep
    its word. And as the saying goes, trust comes on foot and leaves on a horse.

    Unfortunately true. However, Congress is stll not a rubber stamp for Trump, as has been demonstrated, and the judiciary is still independent. Trump is not the
    absulte ruler some people would imagine him to be.

    And do not forget, Israel has nukes.

    Probably, but never tested, confirmed or denied.

    Most likely tested in cohorts with South Africa before the latter voluntarily gave up theirs.

    Maybe. Nobody knows. And it would be surprising if such a secret had not since been disclosed by someone on South Africa. Ore are you assuming everyone connected with the tests was subsequently executed?

    Israel's strength lies at least in part in this uncertainty.

    Without the US' unconditional support of the US, Israel would be no stronger than Pakistan.

    You're joking. If Pakistan's military were anywhere as strong as Israel's, Pakistan would long since have annexed Afghanistan.

    So what is "America First" then?

    Roughly the same as "Iran first", I guess. Does any country think
    differently?

    Not every country sees it as a zero sum game...

    Of course not. You would naturally be willing to let foreign interests dominate
    Dutch politics, wouldn't you?

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Sat May 12 02:18:40 2018

    On 2018 May 11 17:00:18, you wrote to TIM RICHARDSON:

    Is Sweden immune to terrorist attacks,

    There was a question mark at the end of this.

    there was, yes... at the end of the second part... i went back to find it and don't see what you are complaining about...

    "or is there some other reason?"

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Many receive advice; few profit by it. - Publicus Syrus
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Sat May 12 02:30:16 2018

    On 2018 May 12 00:54:12, you wrote to Janis Kracht:

    Cell phone calls? Never happened, anyone knowledgeable in 2001's state
    of technology will be able to confirm.

    hey michael, don't be so stodgy... the average person doesn't know or care about the proper term of those phones... they were portables they could use while flying... whether they were cellular or satellite or dolphone, they don't
    care... they call them "cell phones"... just like the way that the term "modem"
    has been co-opted for use... hell, i heard someone telling another how they were enjoying their new cellular service that allows them to have calls even when there's no cellular signal at their house... they had no clue was VoIP was
    or that their phone even had the capability of using wifi and VoIP to get out when cellular service is not available... to them, any call they make from their phone is a "cell call" even when it isn't...



    PS: punny typo left on porpoise ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I'm just a simple man working on the land.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Sat May 12 09:27:37 2018
    Most likely tested in cohorts with South Africa before the latter
    voluntarily gave up theirs.

    Maybe. Nobody knows. And it would be surprising if such a secret had not since been disclosed by someone on South Africa. Ore are you assuming everyone connected with the tests was subsequently executed?

    Pls read the story of Mordechai Vanunu.

    You're joking. If Pakistan's military were anywhere as strong as
    Israel's, Pakistan would long since have annexed Afghanistan.

    Pakistan has nukes. They can blow Afghanistan to Mars if they so decide.

    Of course not. You would naturally be willing to let foreign interests dominate Dutch politics, wouldn't you?

    I think they already do ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Mark Lewis on Sat May 12 02:46:00 2018
    On 05-11-18 11:37, Mark Lewis <=-
    spoke to Ward Dossche about The 2001-09-11 "attack" <=-


    GSM is digital and funtioned at a different frequency than the
    American (I think analog handheld) system at the time.

    yes, i'm aware of those... i think the above situation was
    more along the lines that different freqs were used
    elsewhere than here...that's what the antennas with
    transmitter/receiver units were for... they got special
    permission to use those other freqs during that time period
    ;)

    Twenty years ago, weren't there phones in the back of some seats on
    airplanes that could be used to call out, albeit at a very high charge
    per minute?

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 02:48:20, 12 May 2018
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Dale Shipp on Sat May 12 10:07:56 2018
    Twenty years ago, weren't there phones in the back of some seats on airplanes that could be used to call out, albeit at a very high charge
    per minute?

    In some planes, yes. But if all the Saudi Arabian pilots were so skilled after just a few hours of pilot training in a Cessna 172 or whatever, that they
    could disengage the transponder, don't you think that they could also disengage
    that function?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Robert Bashe on Sat May 12 09:36:20 2018
    Hello Robert!

    12 May 18 08:20, Robert Bashe wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in the
    Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated.

    Had it?

    Some people think so.

    [...]

    And the other side?

    Doesn't matter as the Japanese did not decide whether to drop the bombs or not.
    The thing is that the US used the bombs although they widely believed that it is not needed to cause or even speed up surrender of Japan.

    The more interesting question for us today is what we learned from this all. Looking into recent studies like
    <https://muse.jhu.edu/article/667391>

    I fear it is not much:

    ---
    [...]
    An original survey experiment, recreating the situation that the United States faced in 1945 using a hypothetical U.S. war with Iran today, provides little support for the nuclear taboo thesis. In addition, it suggests that the U.S. public's support for the principle of noncombatant immunity is shallow and easily overcome by the pressures of war. When considering the use of nuclear weapons, the majority of Americans prioritize protecting U.S. troops and achieving American war aims, even when doing so would result in the deliberate killing of millions of foreign noncombatants.
    [...]
    ---


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 9:36AM up 125 days, 11:29, 9 users, load averages: 0.21, 0.19, 0.17

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: So come and try to tell me (2:240/12)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to WARD DOSSCHE on Sat May 12 10:20:32 2018
    The off thing is, I dont recall any stories of how
    the League of Natoons stepped in & stopped the mass exodus of the
    Jewish
    people. Can someone explain to me what the European countries did
    to stop
    this?

    Several European countries facilitated the Jewry fleeing Nazi-
    controlled
    territory. Everybody saw the shadow of doom hanging, it was clear the
    Jews
    would take a hit, it was to be expected that Nazi Germany would go to
    war
    again. Jews were only safe behind a physical barrier ... the UK,
    Ireland and
    everything across the Atlantic.

    Across the Atlantic the most welcoming countries were Cuba, Mexico,
    Honduras,
    Panama, Venezuele, Brazil, Argentina, Chile ...

    "Hey", you will remark, "how come you are not listing the USA and
    Canada?"

    I just love good questions ...

    In point of fact the USA denied permission for a shipload of Jewish
    refugees to land here. If memory serves the ship went on to South
    America to unload its cargo. This in 1938 or 1939
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Dale Shipp on Sat May 12 10:22:24 2018

    On 2018 May 12 02:46:00, you wrote to me:

    GSM is digital and funtioned at a different frequency than the
    American (I think analog handheld) system at the time.

    yes, i'm aware of those... i think the above situation was more along
    the lines that different freqs were used elsewhere than here...that's
    what the antennas with transmitter/receiver units were for... they
    got special permission to use those other freqs during that time
    period ;)

    Twenty years ago, weren't there phones in the back of some seats on airplanes that could be used to call out, albeit at a very high charge
    per minute?

    there were... those were tied into some sort of network the craft was part of... they were likely satellite connections at that time... probably still are
    these days unless they're doing VoIP/Wifi and linking that to satellites for internet connectivity...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Happy Holidays and a Wonderful 1994 to you and yours!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Bj”rn Felten on Sat May 12 10:24:48 2018

    On 2018 May 12 10:07:56, you wrote to Dale Shipp:

    Twenty years ago, weren't there phones in the back of some seats on
    airplanes that could be used to call out, albeit at a very high
    charge per minute?

    In some planes, yes. But if all the Saudi Arabian pilots were so
    skilled after just a few hours of pilot training in a Cessna 172 or whatever, that they could disengage the transponder, don't you think
    that they could also disengage that function?

    cessna's don't have such phones so if those guys could find that one particular
    switch amongst the hundreds and hundreds of other switches, possibly...

    look, flying is easy... anyone can fly, lessons or not... taking off and landing are quite different than flying... taking off is very simple but landing, while also simple, is much harder...

    i fly numerous craft in a simulator all the time... the hardest part is learning where all the switches and knobs are that need to be used... once in the air, they all fly in the same manner so yeah, it is quite easy to see how someone with some hours in a GA craft might be able to fly a commercial craft that is already in the air...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... WARNING!! 100% Matter Product - do NOT mix with Antimatter!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to GERRIT KUEHN on Sat May 12 10:40:52 2018
    Hello Robert!

    10 May 18 13:02, Robert Bashe wrote to Lee Lofaso:

    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in the
    Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated.

    Had it?

    Some people think so.

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshi
    ma_an
    d_Nagasaki>

    ---
    The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb
    played no
    decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of
    Japan.
    - Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S.
    Pacific Fleet

    In point of fact the Japanese government asked its ambassador in Moscow
    to have the Russians approach the Americans to set up a meeting to
    discuss ending the war in the Pacific. Russia chose not to pass that
    along. The story is, among other places, in David Kahn's "THe
    Codebreakers," which was published in the late 1960s. Kahn published an updated edition of the book in about 1996.



    The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no
    material
    assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated
    and
    ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the
    successful
    bombing with conventional weapons ... The lethal possibilities of
    atomic
    warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being
    the
    first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the
    barbarians of
    the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars
    cannot be
    won by destroying women and children.
    - Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman,
    1950

    The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.
    - Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1945

    The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment ... It was a
    mistake to
    ever drop it ... [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try
    it out,
    so they dropped it
    - Fleet Admiral William Halsey Jr., 1946
    ---


    Just to give a few opinions from people who were actually involved in
    the war.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 6:42PM up 124 days, 20:35, 9 users, load averages: 0.23, 0.28,
    0.21

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: All carefully conceived (2:240/12)

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    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat May 12 08:37:27 2018
    On 05/12/18, Michiel van der Vlist said the following...

    Hello Robert,

    On Friday May 11 2018 17:11, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    The only thing that came out of this is the US showing the rest of
    the world that it's an unreliable partner. You cannot make
    agreements with it. The US's word is without meaning or value.

    It was a very poor deal done with stupid people who know nothing about negotiation skills.

    Nothing discussed about releasing the hostages.

    Sites not allowed for inspection.

    Allowing Iranians to inspect themselves.

    Chanting Death to America,

    Sanctions relief will make the region far less safe. The sanctions relief and the renewed ability to sell more oil on the open market could wind up bringing $300-400 billion into the Iranian economy, bolstering the Iranian government. Essentially, this means the deal will pay for undermining U.S. policy and interests throughout the region.

    The deal enriches and emboldens Iran an unstable and unprincipled nation. And it destabilizes the region even further and its puts its neighbors our allies at risk. It is a bad deal. While the Obama administration insisted that there were only two choices the deal or war the choices were neither that limited, nor that simple. This deal is not the antidote to war. Rather, it makes increased conflict all the more likely.

    Has the Iranian regime been required to halt its arming, financing and
    training of the Hezbollah terrorist army in south Lebanon?
    No. (This kind of non-nuclear issue was not discussed at the negotiations.)

    They are not a good neighbor to other surrounding nations, they are a
    menace and a threat to the world peace.

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to BOB ACKLEY on Sun May 13 00:59:25 2018

    In point of fact the USA denied permission for a shipload of Jewish refugees to land here. If memory serves the ship went on to South
    America to unload its cargo. This in 1938 or 1939

    You need to get your memory serviced.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to mark lewis on Sun May 13 08:25:26 2018
    mark lewis wrote to Robert Bashe on Saturday May 12 2018 at 02:18:

    Is Sweden immune to terrorist attacks,

    There was a question mark at the end of this.

    there was, yes... at the end of the second part... i went back to find
    it and don't see what you are complaining about...

    Just straightening out the record.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Gerrit Kuehn on Sun May 13 08:28:14 2018
    Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Robert Bashe on Saturday May 12 2018 at 09:36:

    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in the
    Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated.

    Had it?

    Some people think so.

    [...]

    And the other side?

    Doesn't matter as the Japanese did not decide whether to drop the
    bombs or not. The thing is that the US used the bombs although they
    widely believed that it is not needed to cause or even speed up
    surrender of Japan.

    "they" widely believed? Wishful thinking in view of the realities of the Pacific war. All you have to do is to read something about American forces invading small islands such as Tarawa and Okinawa to know what a full-scale invasion of the Japanese mainland would have looked like. "they" were certainly
    not at the front, or military experts, but people speaking after the fact, with
    the confidence that no further lives would be lost. That is very convenient, but not very objective.

    The more interesting question for us today is what we learned from
    this all. Looking into recent studies like <https://muse.jhu.edu/article/667391>

    I fear it is not much:

    So where are nukes faling nowadays? Plenty of threats, but people back down from the edge. Nearly everyone knows that a nuclear war is not winnable. The circumstances were entirely different in 1945.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Sun May 13 08:38:58 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Saturday May 12 2018 at 09:27:

    Most likely tested in cohorts with South Africa before the latter
    voluntarily gave up theirs.

    Maybe. Nobody knows. And it would be surprising if such a secret had
    not since been disclosed by someone on South Africa. Ore are you
    assuming everyone connected with the tests was subsequently executed?

    Pls read the story of Mordechai Vanunu.

    I'm aware of the case, but one man's claim still does not "prove" anything. Israel was nsturally not interested in having anyone disputing it's neutral position (no confirmation or denial), as that is ther basis for it's regional security.

    You're joking. If Pakistan's military were anywhere as strong as
    Israel's, Pakistan would long since have annexed Afghanistan.

    Pakistan has nukes. They can blow Afghanistan to Mars if they so
    decide.

    So why didn't they? Aside from that, I wasn't specifically referring to nuclear
    weapons, which in Afghanistan, with its sparce population, would be pretty ineffective anyway.

    Of course not. You would naturally be willing to let foreign
    interests dominate Dutch politics, wouldn't you?

    I think they already do ...

    Foreign intersts of the Belgians? Possible, but I don't believe even that.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun May 13 08:49:12 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Dale Shipp on Saturday May 12 2018 at 10:07:

    Twenty years ago, weren't there phones in the back of some seats on
    airplanes that could be used to call out, albeit at a very high
    charge per minute?

    In some planes, yes. But if all the Saudi Arabian pilots were so
    skilled after just a few hours of pilot training in a Cessna 172 or whatever, that they could disengage the transponder, don't you think
    that they could also disengage that function?

    Of course not. They would have to train on an airliner similar to those hijacked, as a small plane has no transponder, nor would it make much difference turning it off, since normal radar would still pick up the large plane, but would no longer have the identification and height/velocity figures a transponder provides.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Sun May 13 08:56:08 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to BOB ACKLEY on Sunday May 13 2018 at 00:59:

    In point of fact the USA denied permission for a shipload of Jewish
    refugees to land here. If memory serves the ship went on to South
    America to unload its cargo. This in 1938 or 1939

    You need to get your memory serviced.

    True. It was the St. Lous in 1939:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

    And it had tried several times to allow jewish passengers to debark in South America and the Caribbean, before it's landing in the USA was forbidden. In the
    end, it returned to Germany, but first stopped in the Netherlands, where some of it's passengers debarked. The rest returned to Germany and a very uncertain future.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 17:25:39 2018
    Hi! Robert,

    On 13 May 18 08:56, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    And it had tried several times to allow jewish passengers to debark in South America and the Caribbean, before it's landing in the USA was forbidden. In the end, it returned to Germany, but first stopped in
    the Netherlands, where some of it's passengers debarked. The rest
    returned to Germany and a very uncertain future.

    This is just a quick informational note to you. When you use "it's" in the passage above, it translates to "it is" on each occasion. If you ever want to use the shortened form of "it is" then you may use "it's".

    The other form "its" is the possessive form of the word "it". It's really quite simple.

    "It is" == "it's".

    "Its" == 'belongs to it' (whateever it may be).

    HTH.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... If it is it is, then it's it's. If it isn't, then it's its.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
    * Origin: Paul's other Linux ghizmo - a little more mobile (3:640/384.125)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 09:34:02 2018
    Hello Robert!

    13 May 18 08:28, Robert Bashe wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

    Doesn't matter as the Japanese did not decide whether to drop the
    bombs or not. The thing is that the US used the bombs although they
    widely believed that it is not needed to cause or even speed up
    surrender of Japan.

    looked like. "they" were certainly not at the front, or military
    experts,

    You read the quotes? There are plenty of them. All from high-ranking military people.

    but people speaking after the fact, with the confidence that
    no further lives would be lost. That is very convenient, but not very objective.

    Ok, so you think Nimitz & co. made this up when being asked about it in 1945, 1946 or whenever. I fold.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 9:34AM up 126 days, 11:27, 9 users, load averages: 0.26, 0.27, 0.20

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: Is serving every man (2:240/12)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Bill McGarrity on Sun May 13 11:03:29 2018
    Hello Bill,

    On Friday May 11 2018 18:14, you wrote to me:

    Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been no such
    rivalry.

    There may have been other factors that contridict your assemsment.

    In 1948, the Treaty of Brussels was signed by Belguim, The
    Netherlands, Luxembourg, France and the UK.

    1948... That was three years after the US had NOT left after WWII. Naturaly things had developed in another directionby by then. You can not contradict my assesment by events that happened when the conditition "if they had simply left
    after WWII" was not fulfilled.

    Neither the US or the USSR have clean hands in this as the old saying
    "to the victors go the spoils", each side wanting to protect the
    section of Germany it had 'defeated'.

    That would not have happened if the US had simply left after WWII. I say it again: the idea that the Sovjet Union had plans to invade and conquer Western Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    The Soviets threat was immediate with the Berlin Blockade
    as well as the Czechoslovak coup d'etat.

    That was way AFTER the US had not left after WWI. Instead the US had installed an occupation force with impressive military presence all over Europe. Naturally that was perceived as a threat by the USSR and the had to respond.

    Next came formation of NATO with ALL parties involved in the original treaty becoming members. Question, would NATO have existed without the
    two events listed above?

    The events listed above would probably not have happened if the US had simply left after WWII and there may have been no NATO end certainly no agressive expansion of NATO after the collapse of the Sovjet Union. And without that aggressive expansion of NATO, there would have been no need for Russia to respond. There would have been no war in eastern Ukraine and MH17 would not have been shot down.

    Would Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria join East Germany as a satellite?

    There would have been no "East Germany" had the US simply left after WWII. There would haven been just "Germany".

    original treaty was signed. The writing was on the wall (pardon the
    pun) with regard to Europe seeing the Soviet threat.

    The threat was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    I am noty joking, I am dead serious. And what history? Your
    convincion that Russia woukld have invaded Western Europe is
    solely based on the conviction that they are the bad guys.

    As stated above, they did have an agressive streak.

    A response to the aggression that arose by the US not simply leaving after WWII.

    I say it again: had the US simply left after WWII, the Sovjets would have left too. All they wanted was to go home and lick their wounds. The prolongd US presence forced them to respond and stay as well.

    That does not make sense, If those regugees thought Stalin was a
    threat to Western Europem fleeing TO western Europe is a bit
    illogical don't you think?

    Not if you were in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria
    or East Berlin.

    Living there was not as bad as you seem to think.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Paul Quinn on Sun May 13 12:12:08 2018
    Paul Quinn wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday May 13 2018 at 17:25:

    This is just a quick informational note to you. When you use "it's"
    in the passage above, it translates to "it is" on each occasion. If
    you ever want to use the shortened form of "it is" then you may use
    "it's".

    Apparently the language has changed since I lived in the States. It used to be that an apostrophe "s" was used as a posessive. And when a word ended in "s", a
    simple apostrophe at the end denoted the posessive.

    The other form "its" is the possessive form of the word "it". It's
    really quite simple.

    I agree. Or is this a difference between Australian and American English?

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Gerrit Kuehn on Sun May 13 12:15:38 2018
    Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday May 13 2018 at 09:34:

    Doesn't matter as the Japanese did not decide whether to drop the
    bombs or not. The thing is that the US used the bombs although they
    widely believed that it is not needed to cause or even speed up
    surrender of Japan.

    looked like. "they" were certainly not at the front, or military
    experts,

    You read the quotes? There are plenty of them. All from high-ranking military people.

    What did you expect them to say? That the bomb was more effective than their efforts in ending the war? Of course they belittled the effect. I would have expected nothing more.

    But the fact is that the _combined_ military effors and successes _and_ the bomb were simply too much for the Japanese. And even then, there was considerable resistance to surrender in the Japanese military.

    See:

    Attempted military coup d'‚tat (August 12-15)

    in

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempted_military_coup_d%27%C
    3%A9tat_(August_12%E2%80%9315)

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun May 13 12:39:44 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Bill McGarrity on Sunday May 13 2018 at 11:03:

    There would have been no "East Germany" had the US simply left after
    WWII. There would haven been just "Germany".

    Ruled by the SED under Walter Ulbricht.

    You don't seriously think the USSR would simply have pulled out its troops and gone home, do you? That would be more than naive.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 12:36:44 2018
    Bob,

    Pls read the story of Mordechai Vanunu.

    I'm aware of the case, but one man's claim still does not "prove"
    anything.

    True. But it's a simple matter of science. It is known how much uranium at least goes into Israel, it is known how much they need for peaceful processes. What happens to the excess? They're not selling to Iran ... 8-)

    Perhaps they use it to win the Eurovision Songfestival with objectionable acts ... well, I didn't watch anyway.

    Pakistan has nukes. They can blow Afghanistan to Mars if they so
    decide.

    So why didn't they?

    For the same reason that North-Korea will not attack the US ... it's important to have them. That's leverage during negotiations.

    Of course not. You would naturally be willing to let foreign
    interests dominate Dutch politics, wouldn't you?

    I think they already do ...

    Foreign intersts of the Belgians? Possible, but I don't believe even
    that.

    I think the talk was about the Netherlands. But it equally applies to Belgium and other nations.

    Who owns our national debt? I have no clue ... China? Gazprom? The Emir of the UAE?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 12:37:05 2018
    Bob,

    Of course not. They would have to train on an airliner similar to those hijacked, as a small plane has no transponder, ...

    Wrong.

    Most, if not all, general aviation planes do have a transponder squawked to 1200. I fly enough general aviation VFR to know that.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 12:43:39 2018
    You need to get your memory serviced.

    True. It was the St. Lous in 1939:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

    And it had tried several times to allow jewish passengers to debark in South America and the Caribbean, before it's landing in the USA was forbidden. In the end, it returned to Germany, but first stopped in the Netherlands, where some of it's passengers debarked. The rest returned to Germany and a very uncertain future.

    Bullshit.

    St.Louis got stuck in the port of Havanna when Cuba cancelled the probably fake
    Cuban visas for all the passengers. It did not go to South America and it didn't loiter around in the Carribean. From Havana it set sail after several days and went for the coast of Florida followed by Coast Guard vessels with orders to sink her if a dash for an American port was made. So at night it went
    close enough to the American coast, in international waters, so the passengers could come on deck and watch the lights of Miami.

    The JDC (Jewish Distribution Committee) tried political pressure so the boat could dock in Canada somewhere, but that was also denied. Therefor it turned back to Europe with barely enough supplies because it had not been able to bunker in Havanna nor get fresh food.

    The captain who was a non-Nazi (and because of that especially selected for that trip) then made plans to beach near Land's End so the passengers could land in England. Very close to that and after negotiations by the JDC, the boat
    entered the Port of Antwerp, that's Belgium, not the Netherlands.

    All the passengers disembarked there, not just "some".

    The group was more or less split in 4 with a secttion going to each England, Belgium, Netherlands and France. The ones that made it to England were safe. The others had an uncertain future. Many were able to secure good visas and were able to leave before the war.

    The remainder were swallowed by the war. Those that were still in France tried to leave to the Vichy-controlled area where for a long time no German troops were.

    From the ones in Belgium and the Netherlands some were able to go into hiding.

    Overal in France, Belgium and the Netherlands a large group was recaptured by the Nazis and some 200+ dissappeared in the Shoa.

    As it happened the Jewish doctor (a passenger) on board the St.Louis eventually
    was captured in the Netherlands and sent to Westerbork in the Netherlands where
    he became the camp physician thereby securing his own life. There he met in 1944 Anne Frank during the about 2 months that she was there.

    Eventually he would survive the war (and became a defense witness in the Nurnberg-style trial against the camp commander Gemmeker) and emigrated to the USA. He set-up a pretty large fund to enable the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in DC to research and document the individual fate of every passenger on the St.Louis.

    I got involved in the project and helped research this for 15 years. Any doubt?
    I have reference letters from the USHMM to prove it.

    Don't argue with me about this subject, Bob, I didn't have to go to the Wikipedia page even.

    To continue the story, the St.Louis did not return to Germany for another year.
    It took on supplies in Antwerp and left within 24hrs for ... New York and to prepare itself for the season's holiday cruises for the wealthy in the Caribean. Because of the name it had made for itself no travel company wanted to work with it and it remained moored in New York until the final days of August 1939, the 29th or 30th I think, when it suddenly was ordered to return to Germany immediately ... Nazi-troops invaded Poland on September 1st 1939. By
    leaving the boat would not be confiscated/lost.

    It arrived in Hamburg and remained tied-up for the rest of the war. Eventually it was severely dammaged by bombings of the port and was destroyed by fire. After the war it was sold for scrap and broken up.

    Take care,

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 21:18:18 2018
    Hi! Robert,

    On 13 May 18 12:12, you wrote to me:

    If you ever want to use the shortened form of "it is"
    then you may use "it's".

    Apparently the language has changed since I lived in the States. It
    used to be that an apostrophe "s" was used as a posessive. And when a
    word ended in "s", a simple apostrophe at the end denoted the
    posessive.

    Yes, you are correct for the majority of its usage. Look, I am not an expert but its misuse is one of those things that grates on the nerves like dragging a
    fistful of fingernails across a chalkboard. In the case of 'it', which may be a unique case or may represent a class of exceptions - I don't know, through its specialness makes it easy to remember.

    The other form "its" is the possessive form of the word "it".
    It's really quite simple.
    I agree. Or is this a difference between Australian and American
    English?

    I doubt it. You are welcome to test the notion with any English Dictionary that answers your call, beit to hand or online.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... It's Monday!?! I want a recount.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Paul Quinn on Sun May 13 14:59:33 2018
    Paul,

    Yes, you are correct for the majority of its usage. Look, I am not an expert but its misuse is one of those things that grates on the nerves
    like dragging a fistful of fingernails across a chalkboard. In the case
    of 'it', which may be a unique case or may represent a class of
    exceptions - I don't know, through its specialness makes it easy to remember.

    You are flirting with "the first Law of Dossche".

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR25
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 12:59:10 2018
    Hello Robert!

    13 May 18 12:15, Robert Bashe wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


    What did you expect them to say? That the bomb was more effective
    than their efforts in ending the war? Of course they belittled the effect. I would have expected nothing more.

    As I said: I fold my case, there is no sense in discussing this with you further.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 12:59PM up 126 days, 14:52, 9 users, load averages: 0.07, 0.14, 0.16

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: Shock to the System (2:240/12)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 15:12:45 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Saturday May 12 2018 08:34, you wrote to me:

    Michiel, I _know_ Russian and German. You don't.

    ‚ë 㢥७ë, çâ® §­ ¥â¥ àãá᪨©,   ï ­¥â?

    I am noty joking, I am dead serious. And what history? Your
    convincion that Russia would have invaded Western Europe is
    solely based on the conviction that they are the bad guys.

    No, on facts.

    What facts? At the fall of Berlin, there were no signs That the USSR had any intent to invade and conquer Western Europe. All the facts that you refer to happened AFTER the US did not simply leave but establish an occupation force.

    What was to prevent that happening except fore the
    armeds forces of the western allies?

    What was to prevent Elephants from infesting The Netherlands if not


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 15:36:50 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Sunday May 13 2018 08:38, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    Maybe. Nobody knows. And it would be surprising if such a secret
    had not since been disclosed by someone on South Africa. Ore are
    you assuming everyone connected with the tests was subsequently
    executed?

    Pls read the story of Mordechai Vanunu.

    I'm aware of the case, but one man's claim still does not "prove" anything.

    Odd. First you claim there is no one that has leaked the secret. And then when pointed out you are wrong, you discard it as "a story of only one man".

    But there are many other stories and pointers that indicate Israel has the bomb.

    Israel was nsturally not interested in having anyone disputing it's neutral position (no confirmation or denial), as that is ther basis
    for it's regional security.

    The very fact that they do not deny it, is a strong pointer that they have it. What other country in the world neither confirms nor denies that they have nukes?

    If they did not have the bomb, they would be in a much better position if they denied it and let the weapon inspectors in to confirm it. Then they could side themselves with the good guys that want a nuclear arms free world and that need
    protection against the bad states that want them. Such as Iran.

    OTOH, if they have them, they can not openly admit it. That would lose their credibility in the fight against Iran. Denying others what you consider indispensible for oneself is a bit hypocritical won't you say? If they openly admitted to have the bomb, they would put themselves in the same box as the bad
    states in the region that have them too...

    Of course not. You would naturally be willing to let foreign
    interests dominate Dutch politics, wouldn't you?

    I think they already do ...

    Transfering souvreignty to a higher level is a natural process that has been going on for ages. It started with tribes joining forces to build and defendable walled cities. Then these independant city states formed alliences in counties, provinces or whatever. Then the counties formed wnat we now know as states. In each of those steps there were cases where the interest of the higher level went above that of the lower level.

    Now we are in the fase that individual countries transfer souvreignty to Europe. As always a matter of give and take. Sometimes the interest of the many
    goes above that of the few.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun May 13 11:08:00 2018
    Hello Michiel..

    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Bill McGarrity on 05-13-18 11:03 <=-


    On Friday May 11 2018 18:14, you wrote to me:

    Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been no such
    rivalry.

    There may have been other factors that contridict your assemsment.

    In 1948, the Treaty of Brussels was signed by Belguim, The
    Netherlands, Luxembourg, France and the UK.

    1948... That was three years after the US had NOT left after WWII. Naturaly things had developed in another directionby by then. You can
    not contradict my assesment by events that happened when the
    conditition "if they had simply left after WWII" was not fulfilled.

    You speak of sheer conjecture. Do you think after a world war a force just packs it's bags and it out in a day or two? Stop, please.


    Neither the US or the USSR have clean hands in this as the old saying
    "to the victors go the spoils", each side wanting to protect the
    section of Germany it had 'defeated'.

    That would not have happened if the US had simply left after WWII. I
    say it again: the idea that the Sovjet Union had plans to invade and conquer Western Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    Then tell me, do you have the same resentment of the Soviets and why they never left?

    The Soviets threat was immediate with the Berlin Blockade
    as well as the Czechoslovak coup d'etat.

    That was way AFTER the US had not left after WWI. Instead the US had installed an occupation force with impressive military presence all
    over Europe. Naturally that was perceived as a threat by the USSR and
    the had to respond.

    Yes, it was called the Marshall Plan in which the Soviets were offered financial assistance yet refused along with blocking the the countries I've stated previously. Do you ever think the US was asked to stay in Europe after WWII to help rebuild it? Do you not think the Brits were concerned about Greece after the war and how Soviet and Yukoslavian troops were looking to overthrow the recognized government after the war?

    Next came formation of NATO with ALL parties involved in the original treaty becoming members. Question, would NATO have existed without the
    two events listed above?

    The events listed above would probably not have happened if the US had simply left after WWII and there may have been no NATO end certainly no agressive expansion of NATO after the collapse of the Sovjet Union. And without that aggressive expansion of NATO, there would have been no
    need for Russia to respond. There would have been no war in eastern Ukraine and MH17 would not have been shot down.

    Please, have you ever heard of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact which Germany gave complete authority to the Soviets to invade Poland? Sounds like a bit of colusion to me. Have you ever thought the Soviets saw a gift and after Poland, Germany was fair game as well. You speak of symantics because you're dealing with emotions. I'm not.

    Would Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria join East Germany as a satellite?

    There would have been no "East Germany" had the US simply left after WWII. There would haven been just "Germany".

    Really? So like Poland the Soviets would just have stopped at the German
    order?

    original treaty was signed. The writing was on the wall (pardon the
    pun) with regard to Europe seeing the Soviet threat.

    The threat was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    Oh? Such as the misunderstanding in Greece?

    I am noty joking, I am dead serious. And what history? Your
    convincion that Russia woukld have invaded Western Europe is
    solely based on the conviction that they are the bad guys.

    As stated above, they did have an agressive streak.

    A response to the aggression that arose by the US not simply leaving after WWII.

    That my friend is conjecture. If you had a case, being the US had zero influence within Greece and Turkey, why was it targeted? Simple explaination, there was zero resistance thus making it an easy target until the Truman Doctrine. Guess what, both Greece and Turkey are still independent countries.

    I say it again: had the US simply left after WWII, the Sovjets would
    have left too. All they wanted was to go home and lick their wounds.
    The prolongd US presence forced them to respond and stay as well.

    Why? They were offered financial assistance with the Marshall Plan yet refused. Would you not take advantage of aide if your sole thoughts were to "go home and lick their wounds"?

    That does not make sense, If those regugees thought Stalin was a
    threat to Western Europem fleeing TO western Europe is a bit
    illogical don't you think?

    Not if you were in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria
    or East Berlin.

    Living there was not as bad as you seem to think.

    Really? A neighbor of mine was once a freedom fighter in Hungary. I'm sure he'd either laugh or punch you in your face over that remark.

    As I previously stated, both the US and the Soviets were no angels. If what you say it true, then why were Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria and East Berlin so important to them?. If it was such a holiday to live in East Berlin, why was a 12' wall built to keep people within the Soviet area or are you saying it was such a non-malevolent society they built the wall to keep people out from the 'party atmosphere'?

    Your 'theory' is extremely narrow minded when it comes to laying blame. I'm sure the leaders of YOUR country felt it was imperative the US stick around... especially when it came to the money along with the effects of the Soviet backed rebels in Greece and Turkey had on them. Remember Poland, that happened well before the US even entered the European theatre. So in all actuality, if the US had either remained neutral or on May 9th, 1945 packed their bags and went home you'd probably be speaking either German or Russian as a first language rather than a 2nd as you are now.

    And if you're going to reply, please bring facts rather than an emotional response of "if they would have left".

    Enjoy your day.


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 11:20:26 2018

    On 2018 May 13 08:25:26, you wrote to me:

    mark lewis wrote to Robert Bashe on Saturday May 12 2018 at 02:18:

    Is Sweden immune to terrorist attacks,

    There was a question mark at the end of this.

    there was, yes... at the end of the second part... i went back to find
    it and don't see what you are complaining about...

    Just straightening out the record.

    it was obvious since there was a comma there... the way you said it was like someone had changed that character when they didn't...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... It seems silly now, but your country was founded as a tax protest.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 11:21:32 2018

    On 2018 May 13 08:49:12, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

    In some planes, yes. But if all the Saudi Arabian pilots were so
    skilled after just a few hours of pilot training in a Cessna 172 or
    whatever, that they could disengage the transponder, don't you think
    that they could also disengage that function?

    Of course not. They would have to train on an airliner similar to
    those hijacked, as a small plane has no transponder,

    yes, small planes do have transponders...

    nor would it make much difference turning it off, since normal radar
    would still pick up the large plane, but would no longer have the identification and height/velocity figures a transponder provides.

    right so turning it off does make a difference... the radar would simply pick up a blip with no idea if it is a large plane or something else... possibly the
    larger the blip the larger the object but that may not always be true...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I'll have two brains on drugs, scrambled with sausage, hashbrowns, biscuit and
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Sun May 13 11:27:54 2018

    On 2018 May 13 12:12:08, you wrote to Paul Quinn:

    Paul Quinn wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday May 13 2018 at 17:25:

    This is just a quick informational note to you. When you use "it's"
    in the passage above, it translates to "it is" on each occasion. If
    you ever want to use the shortened form of "it is" then you may use
    "it's".

    Apparently the language has changed since I lived in the States.

    not as far as "its" and "it's" go... that's the same as it ever was...

    It used to be that an apostrophe "s" was used as a posessive. And when
    a word ended in "s", a simple apostrophe at the end denoted the
    posessive.

    that's still true for other words...

    The other form "its" is the possessive form of the word "it". It's
    really quite simple.

    I agree. Or is this a difference between Australian and American English?

    uncle google is your friend...

    https://www.google.com/search?q="its"+and+"it's"

    AFAIK, it is standard english grammer...

    it's easy to see that the blanket is its...
    it is easy to see that the blanket is its...

    if you see an apostrophy in "it's", replace it with "it is" and see if it makes
    sense with the rest of the statement...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... To err is human. To forgive is against company policy.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to BJÖRN FELTEN on Sun May 13 09:01:00 2018
    On 05-11-18, BJöRN FELTEN said to TIM RICHARDSON:

    April 16, 2007:

    Seung-Hui Cho, a senior at Virginia Tech, shot and killed 32 people and BF>wounded 17 others in two separate attacks (another six people were injured BF>escaping from classroom windows), approximately two hours apart, before BF>committing suicide.


    If he had not been of South Korean origin, but from the Middle East, would BF>that have been an act of terrorism as well?


    More than a `century ago'? April 2017....wasn't that just last month?


    I don't know what calender you are using -- here in Sweden we have the BF>year 2018 now.


    Watching a golf tournament and typing at the same time. Mistake.


    Still....far less than `a century ago'!


    ---
    *Durango b301 #PE*
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to TIM RICHARDSON on Sun May 13 23:59:34 2018
    Still....far less than `a century ago'!

    And still that was no more a terrorist attack than any of e.g. the US school
    shootings -- merely an act by a single crazy person.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Ward Dossche on Mon May 14 07:52:22 2018
    Hi! Ward,

    On 13 May 18 14:59, you wrote to me:

    You are flirting with "the first Law of Dossche".

    My middle initial is D. Danger man.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Be kind to your dentist. He has fillings, too.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
    * Origin: Paul's other Linux ghizmo - a little more mobile (3:640/384.125)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Mon May 14 09:46:52 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday May 13 2018 at 12:37:

    Of course not. They would have to train on an airliner similar to
    those hijacked, as a small plane has no transponder, ...

    Wrong.

    Most, if not all, general aviation planes do have a transponder
    squawked to 1200. I fly enough general aviation VFR to know that.

    In light planes? That would be something new to me. I took flying lessons in the mid-^960s in a Cessna Colt and there was nothing such thing aboard.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Mon May 14 09:26:04 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday May 13 2018 at 12:43:

    You need to get your memory serviced.

    True. It was the St. Lous in 1939:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

    And it had tried several times to allow jewish passengers to debark
    in South America and the Caribbean, before it's landing in the USA
    was forbidden. In the end, it returned to Germany, but first stopped
    in the Netherlands, where some of it's passengers debarked. The rest
    returned to Germany and a very uncertain future.

    Bullshit.

    Thanks for disputing the Wikipedia account. Now all we have to do is to decide which is more believeable.

    All the passengers disembarked there, not just "some".

    This contradicts the facts of the matter. And the later survivors of the ship who returned to Germany.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon May 14 09:30:18 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday May 13 2018 at 15:36:

    Maybe. Nobody knows. And it would be surprising if such a secret
    had not since been disclosed by someone on South Africa. Ore are
    you assuming everyone connected with the tests was subsequently
    executed?

    Pls read the story of Mordechai Vanunu.

    I'm aware of the case, but one man's claim still does not "prove"
    anything.

    Odd. First you claim there is no one that has leaked the secret. And
    then when pointed out you are wrong, you discard it as "a story of
    only one man".

    You totally twist what I wrote. I never claimed that "nodody has ever leaked the secret", only that nothing posite or negative has yet been proven without a
    doubt.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Mon May 14 10:04:35 2018
    Most, if not all, general aviation planes do have a transponder
    squawked to 1200. I fly enough general aviation VFR to know that.

    In light planes? That would be something new to me. I took flying lessons in the mid-^960s in a Cessna Colt and there was nothing such thing
    aboard.

    Times have changed Bob.

    Montana is pretty non-busy airspace except above 30,000ft and everybody has their transponder on. Only then do you realise how much there is up in the air.
    In the newer cockpit layouts for general aviation you now also have screens and
    with everybody having their transponder on and TCAS functioning it makes for a big difference.

    I've got some commercial aviation friends on 747 777 and 737 and they say that these small planes are now better equipped than their big jets are.

    Also I think in the mid-60-ies there were no transponders and certainly no TCAS.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR27
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Robert Bashe on Mon May 14 10:54:19 2018
    Hello Robert,

    On Monday May 14 2018 09:30, you wrote to me:

    I'm aware of the case, but one man's claim still does not "prove"
    anything.

    Odd. First you claim there is no one that has leaked the secret.
    And then when pointed out you are wrong, you discard it as "a
    story of only one man".

    You totally twist what I wrote. I never claimed that "nodody has ever leaked the secret",

    Indeed. Instead you suggested that everyone knowing about the secret had been shot.

    only that nothing posite or negative has yet been proven without a
    doubt.

    Since when do you need proof without doubt when it concerns WMDs? You did not need proof without doubt when GWB claimed Irak had WMDs. You are measuring with
    two sticks Bob.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Mon May 14 15:59:56 2018
    Bob,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

    And it had tried several times to allow jewish passengers to debark RB>RB>> in South America and the Caribbean, before it's landing in the USA RB>RB>> was forbidden. In the end, it returned to Germany, but first stopped RB>RB>> in the Netherlands, where some of it's passengers debarked. The rest RB>RB>> returned to Germany and a very uncertain future.

    Bullshit.

    Thanks for disputing the Wikipedia account. Now all we have to do is to decide which is more believeable.

    All the passengers disembarked there, not just "some".

    This contradicts the facts of the matter. And the later survivors of the ship who returned to Germany.

    When you quote a webpage, it might be useful to read it yourself first:

    "The ship returned to Europe, docking at Antwerp, Belgium, on June 17, 1939 with 907 passengers." ... That's Belgium, not the Netherlands.

    "The United Kingdom agreed to take 288 (32%) of the passengers, who disembarked
    and traveled to the UK via other steamers. After much negotiation by Schröder, the remaining 619 passengers were allowed to disembark at Antwerp; 224 (25%) were accepted by France, 214 (23.59%) by Belgium, and 181 (20%) by the Netherlands."

    In the page you quote it is clearly stated all the passengers disembarked in Antwerp.

    The onlyones that returned to Germany did so after May 10th 1940 ... in
    cattle cars ... not voluntary.

    The page further states that "Scott Miller and Sarah Ogilvie of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum did an actual historical trace on the fate of each passenger". This is exactly as I described in a previous message. I worked
    for both Scott and Sarah and have documentation to prove it. I contributed to the display in the Washington DC USHMM.

    The Wikipedia page which you referenced tells exactly the same story as I did, with 4 exceptions:

    First I put the year at 1938 off the top of my head, it's 1939. That's my own mistake.

    Second, Saint Louis did NOT return to Germany as the Wikipedia page suggest. I have seen the New York docking record of it mid-June of that year. The crossing
    direct from Antwerp to New York was used to overhaul the ship as it had suffered from more than 30 days uninterrupted usage with no maintenance.

    Third, it was not repaired after the war. The hulk of the ship burned completely, nothing was left from the inside, the teak decks ... everything gone. I have seen a copy of the bill of sale to a scrapyard in 1946.

    Fourth, the disembarkation in Antwerp was not negotiated by Captain Schroeder but by the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.

    There are a few minor details which equally are incorrect but of lesser importance.

    There's a lot of stuff in Wikipedia, some of it is true, some of it isn't. It is not an officially maintained encyclopedia with a scientific committee.

    Bob, I was part of the research team.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR27
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Mon May 14 16:30:02 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday May 14 2018 at 10:04:

    Most, if not all, general aviation planes do have a transponder
    squawked to 1200. I fly enough general aviation VFR to know that.

    In light planes? That would be something new to me. I took flying
    lessons in the mid-^960s in a Cessna Colt and there was nothing such
    thing aboard.

    Times have changed Bob.

    Montana is pretty non-busy airspace except above 30,000ft and
    everybody has their transponder on.

    Private planes generally use VFR and fly at altitudes below 5,000 feet. The altitude you mention is far outside their capabilities.

    I've got some commercial aviation friends on 747 777 and 737 and they
    say that these small planes are now better equipped than their big
    jets are.

    Second-hand information abut unknown planes. What is "small"? Amd what do "friends" on the large airliners know about private planes?

    Also I think in the mid-60-ies there were no transponders and
    certainly no TCAS.

    I don't know, only that there was never one in any plane I flew.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon May 14 16:33:48 2018
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday May 14 2018 at 10:54:

    I'm aware of the case, but one man's claim still does not "prove"
    anything.

    Odd. First you claim there is no one that has leaked the secret. And MV>>> then when pointed out you are wrong, you discard it as "a story of
    only one man".

    You totally twist what I wrote. I never claimed that "nodody has ever
    leaked the secret",

    Indeed. Instead you suggested that everyone knowing about the secret
    had been shot.

    I neither wrote that, nor did I "suggest" it. You're dreaming again. Come dopwn
    to earth.

    only that nothing posite or negative has yet been proven without a
    doubt.

    Since when do you need proof without doubt when it concerns WMDs? You
    did not need proof without doubt when GWB claimed Irak had WMDs. You
    are measuring with two sticks Bob.

    No, I think you are. As for Iraq, if military experts were convinced, how was anyone in the public to know the facts behind the submitted "proof"?

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Mon May 14 16:38:36 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday May 14 2018 at 15:59:

    Fourth, the disembarkation in Antwerp was not negotiated by Captain Schroeder but by the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.

    So...

    "In March 1993, Yad Vashem honored Schr”der with the title of "Righteous Among the Nations" by the State of Israel."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Schr%C3%B6der#Honors_and_tributes

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Mon May 14 16:47:48 2018
    Monday May 14 2018 16:38, I wrote to you:

    Fourth, the disembarkation in Antwerp was not negotiated by Captain
    Schroeder but by the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.

    So...

    "In March 1993, Yad Vashem honored Schr”der with the title of
    "Righteous Among the Nations" by the State of Israel."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Schr%C3%B6der#Honors_and_tributes

    Oh, and something else:

    "In 1998, Scott Miller and Sarah Ogilvie of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum traced the survivors from the voyage. They concluded that a total of 254 refugees died at the hands of the Nazis."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_of_the_Damned#Actual_death_toll

    Not everything was sweetness and light in Belgium, either.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Mon May 14 18:27:46 2018
    Montana is pretty non-busy airspace except above 30,000ft and
    everybody has their transponder on.

    Private planes generally use VFR and fly at altitudes below 5,000 feet.
    The altitude you mention is far outside their capabilities.

    Every time I'm in Montana we go flying ... Piper PA28, Cessna-172, Cirrus-22, ... The airport of Missoula is at about 3200ft. It's located in a valley. On a good day you can climb out of it VFR, on a cloudy/rainy/smoky day you need to fly an IFR-path out of the valley. You need to be at 8000ft in order to clear the mountain ranges. We have gone up to 9000ft to go over the Mission Mountain Range, if you fly lower ... well ... not healthy.

    So much for 5000ft. The ceiling of the Cessna-172 and Piper PA28 is about 13000ft. Actually, they can get higher, but oxygen then becomes a problem.

    With the Cirrus-22 (also single prop, 4 seats) we went to 17000ft to fly over Glacier National Park (and I have photos to prove it). Yes, it is pressurised, full glass cockpit, incredible. I want one.

    I've got some commercial aviation friends on 747 777 and 737 and they RB>WD> say that these small planes are now better equipped than their big RB>WD> jets are.

    Second-hand information abut unknown planes. What is "small"? Amd what do "friends" on the large airliners know about private planes?

    1) As mentioned before ... Cessna-172, Piper PA28 Arrow, Cirrus 22. 4 seaters
    propeller driven

    2) Some of the pilot-friends on the large airliners are instructors in
    flying schools. A 777-captain once took me up in a PiperCub during very
    windy conditions. There obviously is a difference between steering a plane
    and piloting one. This guy understood aerodynamics and things. Shaking
    and ratling like hell, yet comfortable because the pilot demonstrated he
    knew what he was doing.

    Also I think in the mid-60-ies there were no transponders and
    certainly no TCAS.

    I don't know, only that there was never one in any plane I flew.

    I think transponders and TCAS ar something from the last 3 decades. Prior to that separation techniques were rather crude.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR27
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Mon May 14 18:30:26 2018
    Fourth, the disembarkation in Antwerp was not negotiated by Captain RB>WD> Schroeder but by the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.

    So...

    "In March 1993, Yad Vashem honored Schr”der with the title of "Righteous Among the Nations" by the State of Israel."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Schr%C3%B6der#Honors_and_tributes

    Correct. And how does that deviate from what I wrote?

    Schroeder was handpicked for the trip because he was not a party member and they needed a trustworthy person as Nazi leadership knew the boat would be turned back. They needed a non-Nazi to make the decision to return to Germany.

    Schroeder's diplomacy mainly was in the harbour of Havanna. After that he was running his ship ... remember 1939 ... there were no long range radio-connections. His only mode of communication at sea was morse. No way to manage intensive negotiations with just morse to which the rest of the world was listening.

    He attempted beaching the St.Louis near Miami but coastguard vessels made it impossible on order of Cordel Hull Secretary of State. He also made preparations to beach at Land's End so that all passengers could land in England and be safe. During the night when that would happen he received a cable from the JJDC in Paris that the Belgian King had offered the port of Antwerp as a disembarkation point.

    His merit also lies in the fact that a large portion of his crew were Nazi party members and he strictly forbade harassment and enforced that the passengers would be treated with respect as with any other cruise. Tecnically it was a regular cruise with all services ... shows, restaurants, swimming lessons, childcare for parents while dining, ...

    He was rightfully declared a "Righteous among the Nations" ...

    Again, Bob, I studied this, I worked on this and I don't need wikipedia to provide me the information from all the messages I wrote about this.

    Take care,

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR27
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Mon May 14 18:34:21 2018
    Bob,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_of_the_Damned#Actual_death_toll

    Not everything was sweetness and light in Belgium, either.

    That is correct and not a matter of dispute. It is well documented in history.

    There was a very strong Nazi-party in Belgium prior to the war (and in the Netherlands, and in France, and in many other countries). My parents were 18 and 17 and recalled the arrival of the St.Louis in port as big news.

    There were mass demonstrations quay-side by Nazis and to ensure the safety of the passengers there were three trains on the quay cordoned off by the police. One train left for the south of the country to an at the time undetermined destination which happened to be a number of abbeys and monasteries. One train went straight to France. One train went to Ostend where the passengers destined
    for England went on a regular ferry to Dover. For the people going to the Netherlands another ship moored alongside the St.Louis and they stepped from one boat onto the other, they never landed.

    I'm not certain what you're trying to prove Bob, but I do know what I'm talking
    about. I have the 1939 newspaper clippings here with me as well as the newsreel
    from those days.

    Take care,

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR27
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Mon May 14 20:09:11 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Twenty years ago, weren't there phones in the back of some seats on
    airplanes that could be used to call out, albeit at a very high charge
    per minute?

    In some planes, yes. But if all the Saudi Arabian pilots were so skilled after just a few hours of pilot training in a Cessna 172 or whatever, that they could disengage the transponder, don't you think that they could also disengage that function?

    They had a direct hotline to Allah. No cell phones required.

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to BOB ACKLEY on Mon May 14 20:09:23 2018
    Hello Bob,

    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in the
    Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated.

    Had it?

    Some people think so.

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshi ma_an


    ---
    The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb
    played no
    decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of
    Japan.
    - Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S.
    Pacific Fleet

    In point of fact the Japanese government asked its ambassador in Moscow
    to have the Russians approach the Americans to set up a meeting to
    discuss ending the war in the Pacific. Russia chose not to pass that along. The story is, among other places, in David Kahn's "THe Codebreakers," which was published in the late 1960s. Kahn published an updated edition of the book in about 1996.

    President Truman was very much aware of the Japanese offer
    to surrender - which was made a full month *before* the atomic
    bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Truman rejected the offer
    because he wanted *two* things -

    1. an unconditional surrender
    2. to send a clear warning to the USSR

    After atomizing two Japanese cities, Emperor Hirohito
    cried uncle. And the Soviets stopped their advance, knowing
    who was next on Truman's hit list.

    Kahn's thesis refuted.

    Next question?

    --Lee

    --
    Erections, That's Our Game

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Mon May 14 20:09:35 2018
    Hello mark,

    GSM is digital and funtioned at a different frequency than the
    American (I think analog handheld) system at the time.

    yes, i'm aware of those... i think the above situation was more
    along
    the lines that different freqs were used elsewhere than
    here...that's
    what the antennas with transmitter/receiver units were for... they
    got special permission to use those other freqs during that time
    period ;)

    Twenty years ago, weren't there phones in the back of some seats on
    airplanes that could be used to call out, albeit at a very high
    charge
    per minute?

    there were... those were tied into some sort of network the craft was part of... they were likely satellite connections at that time... probably
    still
    are these days unless they're doing VoIP/Wifi and linking that to satellites for internet connectivity...

    How were passengers able to talk to people on the ground - twenty
    minutes after the plane had been shot down? AFAIK, there are no cell
    phones (or any other kind of phones) in heaven.

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Mon May 14 20:09:47 2018
    Hello mark,

    Twenty years ago, weren't there phones in the back of some seats on
    airplanes that could be used to call out, albeit at a very high
    charge per minute?

    In some planes, yes. But if all the Saudi Arabian pilots were so
    skilled after just a few hours of pilot training in a Cessna 172 or
    whatever, that they could disengage the transponder, don't you think
    that they could also disengage that function?

    cessna's don't have such phones so if those guys could find that one particular switch amongst the hundreds and hundreds of other switches, possibly...

    Muslim terrorists were flying the craft and had no need of such
    phones. They had the guidance of Allah, who spoke directly to them ...

    look, flying is easy... anyone can fly, lessons or not... taking off and landing are quite different than flying... taking off is very simple but landing, while also simple, is much harder...

    i fly numerous craft in a simulator all the time... the hardest part is learning where all the switches and knobs are that need to be used... once in the air, they all fly in the same manner so yeah, it is quite easy to see how someone with some hours in a GA craft might be able to fly a commercial craft that is already in the air...

    That may be. But those Muslim pilots were far more skillful than
    you could ever hope to be. Two of them managed to fly aircraft into skycrapers, bringing both to the ground, one managed to expertly
    fly an airplane right smack into one of the walls of the Pentagon,
    and the other would have managed to complete his task had the
    airplane he was piloting not been shot down before reaching its
    intended target.

    --Lee

    --
    Every Bottom Needs A Top

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Mon May 14 20:09:58 2018
    Hello Greg,

    The only thing that came out of this is the US showing the rest
    of
    the world that it's an unreliable partner. You cannot make
    agreements with it. The US's word is without meaning or value.

    It was a very poor deal done with stupid people who know nothing about negotiation skills.

    Better to let Israel take of it.

    Nothing discussed about releasing the hostages.

    Better to let Israel take care of it.

    Sites not allowed for inspection.

    Better to let Israel take care of it.

    Allowing Iranians to inspect themselves.

    Better to let Israel take care of it.

    Chanting Death to America,

    Better to let Israel ("Little Satan") take care of it.

    Sanctions relief will make the region far less safe. The sanctions relief and the renewed ability to sell more oil on the open market could wind up bringing $300-400 billion into the Iranian economy, bolstering the Iranian government. Essentially, this means the deal will pay for undermining U.S. policy and interests throughout the region.

    Trump's message to Iran is the same message he gives to all,
    in particular to Muslim terrorists -

    "No deal. We win. You lose."

    If Iran thinks he is joking, they should ask "Little Satan".

    The deal enriches and emboldens Iran an unstable and unprincipled nation. And
    it destabilizes the region even further and its puts its neighbors our allies
    at risk. It is a bad deal. While the Obama administration insisted that there
    were only two choices the deal or war the choices were neither that
    limited,
    nor that simple. This deal is not the antidote to war. Rather, it makes increased conflict all the more likely.

    Iranians are very principled. So are Muslim terrorists. But those
    principles should not be confused as being one and the same.

    Has the Iranian regime been required to halt its arming, financing and training of the Hezbollah terrorist army in south Lebanon?
    No. (This kind of non-nuclear issue was not discussed at the
    negotiations.)

    The mullahs in Iran should be regarded in the same light as all
    Muslim terrorists. But that does not mean that all Iranians, or
    even most, share those same views.

    They are not a good neighbor to other surrounding nations, they are a menace and a threat to the world peace.

    All violence should be condenmend. Regardless of what party
    commits those acts. Are Jewish terrorists any more innocent than
    Muslim terrorists? Or Christian terrorists (such as David Koresh
    or Timothy McVeigh)?

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to LEE LOFASO on Mon May 14 16:55:32 2018
    Hello Bob,

    Atomizing two Japanese cities did nothing to end the war in the
    Pacific, as Japan had already been defeated.

    Had it?

    Some people think so.


    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshi
    ma_an


    ---
    The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb
    played no
    decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat
    of
    Japan.
    - Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S.
    Pacific Fleet

    In point of fact the Japanese government asked its ambassador in
    Moscow
    to have the Russians approach the Americans to set up a meeting to discuss ending the war in the Pacific. Russia chose not to pass
    that
    along. The story is, among other places, in David Kahn's "THe Codebreakers," which was published in the late 1960s. Kahn
    published an
    updated edition of the book in about 1996.

    President Truman was very much aware of the Japanese offer
    to surrender - which was made a full month *before* the atomic
    bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Truman rejected the offer
    because he wanted *two* things -

    1. an unconditional surrender
    2. to send a clear warning to the USSR

    After atomizing two Japanese cities, Emperor Hirohito
    cried uncle. And the Soviets stopped their advance, knowing
    who was next on Truman's hit list.

    Kahn's thesis refuted.

    Hardly. According to Kahn, while the US did intercept the Japanese
    diplomatic traffic to Moscow, due to the wartime backlog it wasn't
    decrypted and translated until AFTER the nukes had been dropped.

    Hirohito's decision to surrender was based, among other things, on radio broadcasts made by a US Navy officer (whose name I can't recall at the moment), and was made before the nukes were dropped. Unfortunately he
    had no way to communicate that decision to the Allies (read: US) and
    Uncle Joe took no action to do so.

    Note that Uncle Joe declared war on Japan the day after the first nuke
    was dropped, and for less than a week of very minor hostilities expected
    to have a major role in post-war Japan - MacArthur told the Russians to
    get bent and wouldn't allow them into the country. Note that throughout
    the war US shipping of war materials between west coast ports and
    Vladivostok was not molested by the Japanese navy (some of that war
    material was very quietly trans-shipped from Vladivostok to Japan).
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Tue May 15 01:29:23 2018
    Hello Greg,

    In the telecom industry with 2001 technology we tried to duplicate
    cellphone conversations from a jet flying at low altitude at about
    850km/h.
    Couldn't do anything except some garbled stuff. Transmitter is hopping
    from cell to cell too fast to be effective.

    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible at
    that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    Whats with these ridiculous theory's? What I have written about the late Todd Beamer is a matter of public record via Wikipedia, so what?

    What you read on Wikipedia is "fake news". As I pointed out, with
    two cites backing it up, is those alleged cell phones made from the
    airplane while in flight could not have happened. Also, the person
    claiming to be Todd Beamer was just a pretender, not the real deal.
    The time line is also off, thus proving Wikipedia's claims to be
    fraudulent.

    Their many references are all lying?

    The references cited in Wikipedia's article may have been accurate,
    but what was claimed on those references was inaccurate, untrue, call
    it whatever you want.

    Ms. Beamer was even honored on behalf of her late husband's sacrifice by George W. Bush at the State of the Union during his time as President.

    Ms. Beamer never spoke to her husband when he was in flight.
    President George W. Bush spoke of all who lost their lives on
    that fateful day, but was not about to reveal the truth as to
    what actually happened. And for good reason. No president
    would want to tell the American people that he/she had ordered
    a passenger aircraft to be shot down by the military. Even
    if it was a necessary action.

    A president takes an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the
    Constitution of the United States" - from all enemies, both foreign
    and domestic.

    Anything less would be grounds for treason.

    This is complete bizarro-world with these alternate theory's.

    If I was president at the time, given the same situation, I would
    have had no choice but to order the plane shot down.

    You know what I think, as to reason why people have a different account of this matter, I think they are trying to diminish just how Great we are as
    a
    people, to make themselves feel better, keep trying.

    George W. Bush joined the Texas Air National Guard as a means
    to avoid having to serve in Vietnam.

    Donald "Bone Star Cadet" Trump got five deferments due to his
    medical condition as a means to avoid having to serve in Vietnam.

    Talk about chicken-hawks. All they can do is cluck cluck
    at everybody, falsely claiming to be The Great American Hero
    who should be worshipped and adored by all.

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Tue May 15 01:29:29 2018
    Hello Greg,

    So what is "America First" then?

    Definitely not the same as Iran's intentions,

    What are Iran's intentions? Other than to protect itself
    from other countries that seek to do it harm?

    we do not support mayhem in the Middle East,

    When was the last time the US condemned Israel for its actions?

    nor to we fund Islamic Jihad with the America First agenda.

    But Jewish jihad is okay? The entire world has seen what Israeli
    troops have been doing to unarmed Palestinian youth demonstrators ...

    I am well aware of what was done with the Carter Administration with Zbigniew Brzezinski most known for his ill-advised policy forays turned
    out
    to be funding the rebel Mujahideen group in hopes that they would drag the Soviet Union in a long, costly quagmire in the Middle East.

    After the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, President Carter
    led the call for countries around the world to boycott the Olumpics,
    which were to be held in Moscow. Many chose to join in, as every
    country in the world knew who the aggressor was. Of course, a
    small handful of countries (such as Cuba) chose to ignore President
    Carter's call, being fearful of retaliation.

    Yes, it is true that President Carter began arming resistance
    groups in Afghanistan. President Reagan followed suit when he
    took office. As every US president would have, for as long as
    Afghanistan remained occupied by Soviet troops.

    But this has nothing to do with Trump and his America First agenda.

    Of course not. The Soviets had left decades before, and US President
    Donald Trump has a great relationship with Russian President Vladimir
    Putin. Which is why US President Trump ordered more US troops into Afghanistan. With Russian President Vladimir Putin's blessing.

    The United States is a Superpower.
    "was" ... the arms race took its toll also on the American military.

    A superpower beaten in the rice-paddies and in the deserts of the
    You can't even deal with an ragtag-group of non-regulars.

    Your information is out of date and or just plain wrong. The media is
    said
    to be 90 percent negative when it comes to talking about
    President Trump.

    The US won the war in Vietnam. Donald "Bpne Star Cadet" Trump got
    five deferments, so he did not have to serve. But he was a true
    patriot, staying home in America as the military's top cheerleader.

    The Vietnamese call the conflict "The American War" because of
    who the invaders were. Decades before then, the Vietnamese had
    fought, and won, a different war they called "The Japanese War".
    Ho Chi Minh was, and remains, a god to the Vietnamese people.

    You are talking about a people that defeated the Japanese, the
    French, and the Americans. And then went on to become best friends
    with all of them. Now that is what you call winning by losing.

    It is now Five Top Isis 'scumbags' that have been captured by the U.S. Military.

    The so-called ISIS commanders were leftovers from Saddam Hussein's
    regime. In other words, the US created ISIS by invading Iraq.

    Isis is dissolving faster then the kool-aid powder that you seem to be consuming.

    The territory controlled by ISIS has been significantly diminished,
    but most of the leadership remains underground.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Tue May 15 09:51:56 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday May 14 2018 at 18:30:

    Captain Schroeder but by the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.

    So...

    "In March 1993, Yad Vashem honored Schr”der with the title of
    "Righteous Among the Nations" by the State of Israel."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Schr%C3%B6der#Honors_and_trib
    utes

    Correct. And how does that deviate from what I wrote?

    You attempted to dstract from the fact that the captain, and only he, was responsible for the fact that these people COULD apply for help in Antwerp.

    He was rightfully declared a "Righteous among the Nations" ...

    Finally!

    Again, Bob, I studied this, I worked on this and I don't need
    wikipedia to provide me the information from all the messages I wrote
    about this.

    Soso. But interpretations are always different.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Tue May 15 09:55:58 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday May 14 2018 at 18:34:

    I'm not certain what you're trying to prove Bob...

    Only the Belgium was NOT a core of resistance to the Nazis, and also NOT a "safe haven" in 1939. I object to your attempts to "whitewash" the situation.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Tue May 15 10:48:41 2018
    Bob,

    Correct. And how does that deviate from what I wrote?

    You attempted to dstract from the fact that the captain, and only he, was responsible for the fact that these people COULD apply for help in
    Antwerp.

    Again, if Wikipedia is your only source then look for more. The 8th law of Dossche is a good reference.

    Captain Schroeder negotiated nothing concerning the landing of passengers in Antwerp. None of the passengers applied for help in Antwerp, the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee had taken care of that already, the lists of whom was going where had already been drawn up.

    He was rightfully declared a "Righteous among the Nations" ...

    Finally!

    You are pulling a Witt on me, Bob. You made several innocent incorrect remarks ans now you make it sound as if you pulled something out of me at great lengths. I know you better that having to do something like that.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Robert Bashe on Tue May 15 11:08:49 2018

    Bob,

    I'm not certain what you're trying to prove Bob...

    Only the Belgium was NOT a core of resistance to the Nazis, and also NOT
    a "safe haven" in 1939. I object to your attempts to "whitewash" the situation.

    This is what I wrote about Nazism in Belgium...

    ***************************************************************************** Date: 14 May 18 18:34:21
    From: Ward Dossche

    There was a very strong Nazi-party in Belgium prior to the war (and in the Netherlands, and in France, and in many other countries). My parents were 18 and 17 and recalled the arrival of the St.Louis in port as big news.

    There were mass demonstrations quay-side by Nazis and to ensure the safety of the passengers there were three trains on the quay cordoned off by the
    police. *****************************************************************************

    Hardly whitewashing anything.

    Belgium, sir, was the only country within sailing distance of the vessel, that opened its harbour. Not France, not the Netherlands, not the UK, not Denmark, not Sweden, not Norway. It was a direct order by King Leopold III to do so.

    For all intents and purpose plus by any definition in the book, it was the only
    safe haven the passengers could reach.

    Until May 10th Jews in Belgium were in a safe haven, they were not molested, there was no Kristallnacht here, for as long as there has been written history of my town, there always has been a Jezish presence which continues until this very day.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Tue May 15 11:22:14 2018
    Hardly whitewashing anything.

    I agree. I too was surprised by Robert's remark.

    We all know that there were many Nazi sympathizers all over the world. Even Sweden had many stains on its (did I get that right, Paul? :) ) shining shield...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue May 15 19:45:00 2018
    Hi! Bj~Trn,

    On 15 May 18 11:22, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    Hardly whitewashing anything.
    I agree. I too was surprised by Robert's remark.

    We all know that there were many Nazi sympathizers all over the
    world. Even Sweden had many stains on its (did I get that right, Paul?
    :) ) shining shield...

    Huh? Me...? That's so kind of you. You know of course that there was a time when you were the teacher. That tagline was wholly of your invention and serves as a succinct expression of its use.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... "Too much of a good thing is wonderful", Mae West.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue May 15 12:14:05 2018

    We all know that there were many Nazi sympathizers all over the world.
    Even Sweden had many stains on its (did I get that right, Paul? :) ) shining shield...

    But what the Swedes did with the Danish Jews ... kudos.

    And Sweden was instrumental in sinking the Bismarck. This cannot be stressed enough.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Tue May 15 12:50:41 2018
    But what the Swedes did with the Danish Jews ... kudos.

    And Sweden was instrumental in sinking the Bismarck. This cannot be stressed enough.

    And then there was Folke Bernadotte and all the people who helped him:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte

    A few good men, but we also had a lot of bad men... :(




    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue May 15 15:41:28 2018

    And Sweden was instrumental in sinking the Bismarck. This cannot be BF>WD> stressed enough.

    And then there was Folke Bernadotte and all the people who helped him:

    And especially Raoul Wallenberg ...

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Tue May 15 16:49:38 2018
    And then there was Folke Bernadotte and all the people who helped him:

    And especially Raoul Wallenberg ...

    Ah yes, how could I forget.

    Trivia: Bernadotte is the royal family here in Sweden (Folke was the grandson of our king Oscar II) and Wallenberg is in Sweden what Rockefeller is in the US...


    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to BJŸRN FELTEN on Tue May 15 11:10:46 2018
    Hardly whitewashing anything.

    I agree. I too was surprised by Robert's remark.

    We all know that there were many Nazi sympathizers all over the
    world. Even
    Sweden had many stains on its (did I get that right, Paul? :) ) shining shield...

    Even here, in the USA, today
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed May 16 04:02:38 2018
    Hello Michiel,

    Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been no such
    rivalry.

    There may have been other factors that contridict your assemsment.

    In 1948, the Treaty of Brussels was signed by Belguim, The
    Netherlands, Luxembourg, France and the UK.

    MvdV> 1948... That was three years after the US had NOT left after WWII. Naturaly
    MvdV> things had developed in another directionby by then. You can not contradict
    MvdV> my assesment by events that happened when the conditition "if they had
    MvdV> simply left after WWII" was not fulfilled.

    US policy had changed after WWII. Not just because the war had come
    to an end, but for another, more important reason. FDR had died. The
    new president, Harry S Truman, wanted to go in a different direction.
    Remember, WWII had come to an end in 1945, within a few months of FDR's
    death. The Cold War did not begin until 1947, two years later.

    Neither the US or the USSR have clean hands in this as the old saying
    "to the victors go the spoils", each side wanting to protect the
    section of Germany it had 'defeated'.

    MvdV> That would not have happened if the US had simply left after WWII. I say
    it
    MvdV> again: the idea that the Sovjet Union had plans to invade and conquer
    MvdV> Western Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    It was not so much a "giant misunderstanding" as it was a deliberate
    change in policy - set in place by US President Harry S Truman.

    Had FDR not died (everybody in the US was shocked, as they thought
    he was in the best of health at the time of his death), there likely
    would never have been a Cold War. Europe would have been rebuilt,
    and never divided between east and west. Churchill would have
    thrown a fit, and Brexit may have come decades earlier, but that
    would have been a small price to pay given the alternative.

    The Soviets threat was immediate with the Berlin Blockade
    as well as the Czechoslovak coup d'etat.

    MvdV> That was way AFTER the US had not left after WWI. Instead the US had
    MvdV> installed an occupation force with impressive military presence all over
    MvdV> Europe. Naturally that was perceived as a threat by the USSR and the had
    to
    MvdV> respond.

    The US occupied Japan for five years after the end of WWII.
    The US occupied the western part of Germany for ten years after
    the end of WWII. Why didn't the US leave the western part of
    Germany after five years rather than ten? Because the Soviets
    refused to leave Austria.

    Why did the Soviets choose to remain in Austria for so long
    after the end of WWII? Because of the changes made by US President
    Harry S Truman. Not because of anything done or agreed upon by FDR
    and Stalin.

    There was no "giant misunderstanding". Stalin knew full well what
    Truman was doing, or attempting, to do. The one thing no Soviet
    leader wanted was US troops on its border. Which is exactly what
    would have happened had Stalin removed all Soviet troops from
    Austria and the eastern part of Europe.

    Next came formation of NATO with ALL parties involved in the original
    treaty becoming members. Question, would NATO have existed without the
    two events listed above?

    MvdV> The events listed above would probably not have happened if the US had
    MvdV> simply left after WWII and there may have been no NATO end certainly no
    MvdV> agressive expansion of NATO after the collapse of the Sovjet Union.

    FDR could not help dying. So please. Do not blame him. It was
    Truman who changed policy. Had FDR lived, he and Stalin would have
    made a deal to help rebuild Europe, and make the world a safer place
    for us all.

    NATO was designed as an organization meant to contain Germany.
    The Soviets came up with The Warsaw Pact, which was designed to
    do the very same thing. Germany had caused two giant wars in
    Europe, with Russia being a prime target. France also did the
    trick, when Napoleon was at the helm. So who can blame Russia
    for being skittish?

    MvdV> And without that aggressive expansion of NATO, there would have been no need
    MvdV> for Russia to respond.

    Aha! Michiel's solution for World Peace! Invite Russia to become
    a full-fledged member of NATO! No need for resurrecting The Warsaw
    Pact, or rebuilding the Red Army! Russia should be PARTNERS!

    MvdV> There would have been no war in eastern Ukraine and MH17 would not have been
    MvdV> shot down.

    The idea of Russia being invaded by passenger airplanes is ludicrous.
    But there clearly is a problem in eastern Ukraine. A problem that
    demands a *political* solution. Not a military campaign.

    Would Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria join East Germany as a
    satellite?

    MvdV> There would have been no "East Germany" had the US simply left after WWII.
    MvdV> There would haven been just "Germany".

    Had FDR not died in office, Germany would have remained one Germany.
    And Berlin would not have been quartered. But none of us can change
    the past. We all must live in the present, and seek to build a better
    future for us all.

    original treaty was signed. The writing was on the wall (pardon the
    pun) with regard to Europe seeing the Soviet threat.

    MvdV> The threat was based on a giant misunderstanding.

    Not a "giant misunderstanding" but a change in US policy due to
    the death of a president.

    I am noty joking, I am dead serious. And what history? Your
    convincion that Russia woukld have invaded Western Europe is
    solely based on the conviction that they are the bad guys.

    As stated above, they did have an agressive streak.

    MvdV> A response to the aggression that arose by the US not simply leaving after
    MvdV> WWII.

    There were some US military who wanted to continue the war by invading
    Russia. But US troops were tired of war, and wanted to return home.
    While it would have been better for Truman to have returned all US
    troops from Europe, he at least saw the light and chose not to invade
    Russia.

    MvdV> I say it again: had the US simply left after WWII, the Sovjets would have
    MvdV> left too. All they wanted was to go home and lick their wounds. The
    MvdV> prolongd US presence forced them to respond and stay as well.

    That is basically FDR's and Stalin's position. Truman had a different
    view, and Stalin could do nothing to change his mind. As could nobody
    else.

    That does not make sense, If those regugees thought Stalin was a
    threat to Western Europem fleeing TO western Europe is a bit
    illogical don't you think?

    Not if you were in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria
    or East Berlin.

    MvdV> Living there was not as bad as you seem to think.

    How do you know? Visiting for just a few days on holiday
    does not make you, or anybody else, an expert. Perhaps you
    should join in the fun this summer by visiting Russia for
    the World Cup. Unfortunately, like the USA, the Nederlands
    did not make the cut.

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed May 16 04:02:43 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Still....far less than `a century ago'!

    And still that was no more a terrorist attack than any of e.g. the US
    school
    shootings -- merely an act by a single crazy person.

    David Koresh was not a crazy person. He was simply a school teacher, protecting himself and his students from armed invaders. But even
    his best efforts were not enough, as many still got shot, (including
    Koresh) and the compound going up in smoke as the invaders set fire
    to the place.

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to BOB ACKLEY on Wed May 16 04:02:59 2018
    Hello Bob,

    Hardly whitewashing anything.

    I agree. I too was surprised by Robert's remark.

    We all know that there were many Nazi sympathizers all over the
    world. Even
    Sweden had many stains on its (did I get that right, Paul? :) ) shining
    shield...

    Even here, in the USA, today

    "America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for
    freedom and opportunity in the world." ~US President George W, Bush,
    after 9-11-2001, when he framed his war on terror as a moral response

    I never could understand GWB's war on terror. Fighting a war means
    there must be a defined enemy. But war on a verb???

    A shining city on a hill ...

    Every US president has talked about it ...

    And look at who (and what) it attracts ...

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Lee Lofaso on Tue May 15 21:42:59 2018
    On 05/15/18, Lee Lofaso said the following...

    Hello Greg,

    In the telecom industry with 2001 technology we tried to duplicate
    cellphone conversations from a jet flying at low altitude at about
    850km/h.
    Couldn't do anything except some garbled stuff. Transmitter is hoppi
    from cell to cell too fast to be effective.

    Those cellphone conversations never happened. Technically impossible
    that time. GSM yes, North America no.

    Whats with these ridiculous theory's? What I have written about the l Todd Beamer is a matter of public record via Wikipedia, so what?

    What you read on Wikipedia is "fake news". As I pointed out, with
    two cites backing it up, is those alleged cell phones made from the airplane while in flight could not have happened. Also, the person claiming to be Todd Beamer was just a pretender, not the real deal.
    The time line is also off, thus proving Wikipedia's claims to be fraudulent.


    Their many references are all lying?

    The references cited in Wikipedia's article may have been accurate,
    but what was claimed on those references was inaccurate, untrue, call
    it whatever you want.

    It's Wikipedia it's used all the time
    Lee Lofaso vs The internet and compendium of human knowledge.
    Does not look good for you lee.


    f all historical
    human knowledge on the subject.
    LL>
    Ms. Beamer was even honored on behalf of her late husband's sacrifice George W. Bush at the State of the Union during his time as President

    Ms. Beamer never spoke to her husband when he was in flight.
    President George W. Bush spoke of all who lost their lives on
    that fateful day, but was not about to reveal the truth as to
    what actually happened. And for good reason. No president
    would want to tell the American people that he/she had ordered
    a passenger aircraft to be shot down by the military. Even
    if it was a necessary action.

    A president takes an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" - from all enemies, both foreign
    and domestic.

    Anything less would be grounds for treason.

    This is complete bizarro-world with these alternate theory's.

    If I was president at the time, given the same situation, I would
    have had no choice but to order the plane shot down.

    You know what I think, as to reason why people have a different accou this matter, I think they are trying to diminish just how Great we ar
    a
    people, to make themselves feel better, keep trying.

    George W. Bush joined the Texas Air National Guard as a means
    to avoid having to serve in Vietnam.

    Donald "Bone Star Cadet" Trump got five deferments due to his
    medical condition as a means to avoid having to serve in Vietnam.

    Talk about chicken-hawks. All they can do is cluck cluck
    at everybody, falsely claiming to be The Great American Hero
    who should be worshipped and adored by all.

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was captured, because he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give military information if you will take me to the hospital."

    Scoreboard
    Lee Lofaso.... 0
    The Internet.. 2

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Ward Dossche on Wed May 16 10:11:16 2018
    Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday May 15 2018 at 10:48:

    Correct. And how does that deviate from what I wrote?

    You attempted to dstract from the fact that the captain, and only he,
    was responsible for the fact that these people COULD apply for help
    in Antwerp.

    Again, if Wikipedia is your only source then look for more. The 8th
    law of Dossche is a good reference.

    So somebody else except the said captain was responsible for transporting the refugees?

    Captain Schroeder negotiated nothing concerning the landing of
    passengers in Antwerp.

    Nor was that ever claimed. But without his efforts, none of the refugees would ever have reached Antwerp.

    He was rightfully declared a "Righteous among the Nations" ...

    Finally!

    You are pulling a Witt on me, Bob.

    Just trying to set the record straight. You act as if the refugees somehow swam
    to Antwerp, where they were rescued by "heroic" Belgians. That's not quite the way things happened.

    I think we both have a point here.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Lee Lofaso on Wed May 16 10:19:14 2018
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Bj”rn Felten on Wednesday May 16 2018 at 04:02:

    David Koresh was not a crazy person. He was simply a school teacher, protecting himself and his students from armed invaders. But even his
    best efforts were not enough, as many still got shot, (including
    Koresh) and the compound going up in smoke as the invaders set fire to
    the place.

    You must be joking. But this matter was nothing to joke about.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Gregory Deyss on Wed May 16 21:11:01 2018
    Hello Gregory,

    On Saturday May 12 2018 08:37, you wrote to me:

    The only thing that came out of this is the US showing the rest of
    the world that it's an unreliable partner. You cannot make
    agreements with it. The US's word is without meaning or value.

    It was a very poor deal done with stupid people who know nothing about negotiation skills.

    You are entitled to your opinion, but a deal is a deal. Coming back on it makes
    an unreliable partner. Your opinion does not negate that.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Gregory Deyss on Thu May 17 02:15:02 2018
    On 05-15-18 21:42, Gregory Deyss <=-
    spoke to Lee Lofaso about Re: The 2001-09-11 "attac <=-

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was captured, because he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give military information if you will take me to the hospital."

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have no
    basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real
    information.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain-a-hanoi-hilton-songbird/

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 02:17:55, 17 May 2018
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Dale Shipp on Thu May 17 09:18:52 2018

    On 2018 May 17 02:15:02, you wrote to Gregory Deyss:

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was captured,
    because he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give military
    information if you will take me to the hospital."

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have
    no basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real information.

    have you seen the other bullshit about john mccain? they're trying to say that he was the cause of the fire on the USS Forrestal that killed 134 and injured 161 men back in 1967... effin' id10ts and they can't even fact check properly...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... What we need is a Pizza Door and a Beer Door
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to mark lewis on Thu May 17 19:37:48 2018

    have you seen the other bullshit about john mccain? they're trying to say that he was the cause of the fire on the USS Forrestal that killed 134
    and injured 161 men back in 1967... effin' id10ts and they can't even
    fact check properly...

    That story has been around quite some time and keeps coming back.

    Just as the nonsense about the "We saved your WW2 ass" crap ... this has been going on for 20+ years inhere.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Dale Shipp on Thu May 17 14:20:00 2018
    Dale Shipp wrote to Gregory Deyss on 05-17-18 02:15 <=-

    spoke to Lee Lofaso about Re: The 2001-09-11 "attac <=-

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was captured, because he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give military information if you will take me to the hospital."

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have
    no basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real information.

    Dale, when will you understand facts down't matter to Trumpsters. They hear something rediculous that gives them a woodie and run with it thinking that all others will follow along. I'm sure some will even give the moron a pass now that the truth is out he knew all along about the payment yet flatly denied it.
    He's being played by both China, Iran and North Korea. Sad state of affairs.


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Thu May 17 21:28:03 2018
    Hello Greg,

    [..]

    Todd Beamer is a matter of public record via Wikipedia, so what?

    What you read on Wikipedia is "fake news". As I pointed out, with
    two cites backing it up, is those alleged cell phones made from the
    airplane while in flight could not have happened. Also, the person
    claiming to be Todd Beamer was just a pretender, not the real deal.
    The time line is also off, thus proving Wikipedia's claims to be
    fraudulent.

    Their many references are all lying?

    The references cited in Wikipedia's article may have been accurate,
    but what was claimed on those references was inaccurate, untrue, call
    it whatever you want.

    It's Wikipedia it's used all the time
    Lee Lofaso vs The internet and compendium of human knowledge.
    Does not look good for you lee.

    Just because there happens to be an article on Wikipedia does
    not make it true. Fact is based on evidence. There is no evidence
    that supports the claim that Todd Beamer (or anybody else on the
    plane) could have used cell phones to communicate with those on
    the ground.

    f all historical
    human knowledge on the subject.

    Ms. Beamer was even honored on behalf of her late husband's
    sacrifice
    George W. Bush at the State of the Union during his time as
    President

    Ms. Beamer never spoke to her husband when he was in flight.
    President George W. Bush spoke of all who lost their lives on
    that fateful day, but was not about to reveal the truth as to
    what actually happened. And for good reason. No president
    would want to tell the American people that he/she had ordered
    a passenger aircraft to be shot down by the military. Even
    if it was a necessary action.

    A president takes an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the
    Constitution of the United States" - from all enemies, both foreign
    and domestic.

    Anything less would be grounds for treason.

    This is complete bizarro-world with these alternate theory's.

    If I was president at the time, given the same situation, I would
    have had no choice but to order the plane shot down.

    You know what I think, as to reason why people have a different
    accou
    this matter, I think they are trying to diminish just how Great
    we ar
    a
    people, to make themselves feel better, keep trying.

    George W. Bush joined the Texas Air National Guard as a means
    to avoid having to serve in Vietnam.

    Donald "Bone Star Cadet" Trump got five deferments due to his
    medical condition as a means to avoid having to serve in Vietnam.

    Talk about chicken-hawks. All they can do is cluck cluck
    at everybody, falsely claiming to be The Great American Hero
    who should be worshipped and adored by all.

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was captured,
    because
    he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give military information
    if
    you will take me to the hospital."

    John McCain did what duty required him to do. When he bailed,
    he hit the ground, breaking both arms and a leg, and almost drowned,
    saving himself only by using his teeth to drag himself out. He
    spent five and a half years in captivity, much of it in solitary
    confinement, and was tortured beyond belief. Donald Trump's
    claim of John McCain being a "traitor" due to a propaganda message
    he was forced to make just before he was ultimately released was
    beyond the pale.

    If you ever find the time, watch a movie called "The Rack" -
    starring Paul Newman. It will open your eyes to what war is
    really about. And why John McCain is, and always shall, be
    remembered as a True American Hero.

    --Lee

    --
    We're Great In Bed

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Robert Bashe on Thu May 17 21:28:16 2018
    Hello Bob,

    David Koresh was not a crazy person. He was simply a school teacher,
    protecting himself and his students from armed invaders. But even his
    best efforts were not enough, as many still got shot, (including
    Koresh) and the compound going up in smoke as the invaders set fire to
    the place.

    You must be joking. But this matter was nothing to joke about.

    The agents who tried to negotiate with Koresh did not believe
    he was a crazy man. They said he was a manipulator who fully knew
    what he was doing. He was a school teacher, certified in the
    state of Texas, his compound being a private school rather than
    public. He taught the three R's (reading, plus an extra R (for
    religion). The religious group he belonged to, and headed, was
    known as the Branch Davidians. I will not go into the details
    of what their beliefs were, except to say it was a doomsday
    cult.

    It does not take much to be certified to teach school (pre-K to
    grade 12) in the state of Texas. Just a BA or BS. That qualifies
    an individual to teach any and all subjects. Makes no difference
    if an individual got a degree in history, biology, or physical
    education (PE). Not only that, but teachers in Texas get paid
    three times as much as teachers in Louisiana, which has much
    more stringent rules (the minimum is a masters in education, and
    can teach only within chosen subject area).

    Public schools in Texas do have some rules, which are minimum.
    Private schools in Texas basically have no rules at all.

    That is why David Koresh could get away with getting paid for what
    he did, with all the parents praising his name. Tuition, plus room
    and board, and well, you get the idea.

    The whole thing was mishandled from the beginning, and led to
    many people getting killed, dying either by getting shot or in a
    giant fireball. While doomsday cults may be dangerous, sometimes
    I wonder if those who confront the cultists are more dangerous.

    --Lee

    --
    Sleep With Someone New

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Bill McGarrity on Thu May 17 23:40:55 2018
    He's being played by both China, Iran and North Korea. Sad state of affairs.

    But good for private business.




    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu May 17 18:11:00 2018
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Bill McGarrity on 05-17-18 23:40 <=-

    He's being played by both China, Iran and North Korea. Sad state of affairs.

    But good for private business.

    That was never in doubt...


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Dale Shipp on Fri May 18 03:10:33 2018
    Hello Dale,

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was captured,
    because he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give military
    information if you will take me to the hospital."

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have no basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real information.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain-a-hanoi-hilton-songbird/

    This is a quote from America's most decorated soldier in Vietnam,
    Colonel David Hackworth -

    -=begin quote=-

    McCain's Silver Star narrative for the period 27 October 1967 the day
    after he was shot down to 8 December 1968 reads:

    "His captors… subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties
    in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes. Through his resistance to those brutalities, he contributed significantly towards the eventual abandonment…" of such
    harsh treatment by the North Vietnamese.

    Yet in McCain's own words just four days after being captured, he
    admits he violated the U.S. Code of Conduct by telling his captors
    "O.K, I'll give you military information if you will take me to the
    hospital."

    A Vietnam vet detractor says, "He received the nation's third highest
    award, the Silver Star, for treason. He provided aid and comfort to
    the enemy!"

    The rest of his valor awards issued automatically every year while he
    was a POW read much like the Silver Star.
    More boilerplate often repeating the exact same words.
    An example:

    "By his heroic endeavors, exceptional skill, and devotion to duty, he
    reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions
    of the Naval Service and the United States Armed Forces."

    Yet McCain's conduct while a POW negates these glowing comments.
    The facts are that he signed a confession and declared himself a
    "black criminal who performed deeds of an air pirate."

    -=end quote=-

    There's more. A lot more. But the picture is very clear. When
    Colonel Hackworth first posted his diatribe about McCain on his blog,
    the site was hacked numerous times so the general public would never
    find out. His syndicated column had only briefly mentioned McCain's activities, nothing in detail as on his blog.

    But thanks to the internet, and google, none of those entries
    have been lost. It took me no more than five seconds to find what
    I was looking for. How long do you think it took Trump & Co. to
    find it?

    I'll post the url to ALL so that others can also chime in with their
    own thoughts.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Dale Shipp on Fri May 18 07:37:12 2018
    Hello Dale,

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was captured,
    because he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give military
    information if you will take me to the hospital."

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have no basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real information.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain-a-hanoi-hilton-songbird/

    -=begin quote=-

    KING: Colonel Hackworth, you were never captured, thank the heavens.
    How well are people trained in the military for capture?

    DAVID HACKWORTH, COL., U.S. ARMY (RET.): Aviation folks really get
    excellent training, as does special forces. And then the regular
    military, a lesser amount. I think that units that are logistical
    units need to really sharpen up their hard training and get like
    it used to be where everybody basically is a rifleman.

    -=end quote=-

    source: CNN transcript, Larry King Live

    Although the discussion was about GWB's invasion of Iraq, Col.
    Hackworth's comments concerning how US prisoners of war are treated
    should be noted, given his experience.

    John McCain did what duty required. His handlers are the ones
    to blame, for having built him up as some kind of American superhero.
    However, that does not totally absolve McCain, as noted by Col.
    Hackworth in my previous post.

    --Lee

    --
    I Take A Sheet In The Pool

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bj”rn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sat May 19 03:44:19 2018
    A president takes an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" - from all enemies, both foreign
    and domestic.

    Anything less would be grounds for treason.

    Nevertheless Operation Northwoods

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

    ...were actually planned. By then Cuba was the "target". What prevented the US government from targeting Iraq, in order to take control of the huge oil reserves there, with the same plan?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Dale Shipp on Fri May 18 21:03:59 2018
    On 05/17/18, Dale Shipp said the following...

    On 05-15-18 21:42, Gregory Deyss <=-
    spoke to Lee Lofaso about Re: The 2001-09-11 "attac <=-

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was captured, because he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give military information if you will take me to the hospital."

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have no basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real information.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain-a-hanoi-hilton-songb

    so wikipedia is fake but snopes.com is real,
    rrright? what would you say if I told you that there are sources that suggest and show that snopes.com is phony.
    Just because something fits your narrative, does not mean that it is real,
    all this really means that you have been sufficiently con'd to believe what they are telling you.

    . ______
    _()_||__||
    ( Gregory |
    /-OO-----OO'

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS (1:267/150)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to All on Sat May 19 00:24:56 2018
    On 18 May 18 21:03:59, Gregory Deyss said the following to Dale Shipp:

    Just because something fits your narrative, does not mean that it is real, all this really means that you have been sufficiently con'd to believe what they are telling you.

    Tonight, a breast-exam commercial was on TV.

    And I thought to myself.... Now thats just fine. I can work with that.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Nick Andre on Sat May 19 08:11:27 2018

    Tonight, a breast-exam commercial was on TV.

    And I thought to myself.... Now thats just fine. I can work with that.

    Breast-exam 'commercial'?

    Here it is free ... colonoscopy as well ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Ward Dossche on Sat May 19 07:43:12 2018
    On 19 May 18 08:11:27, Ward Dossche said the following to Nick Andre:

    Breast-exam 'commercial'?

    More like a public service announcement...

    Here it is free ... colonoscopy as well ...

    Sounds like a pain in the ass.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Nick Andre on Sat May 19 15:01:36 2018

    Here it is free ... colonoscopy as well ...

    Sounds like a pain in the ass.

    Some claim you can get used to it, provided you use the correct lube.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
    * Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Gregory Deyss on Sat May 19 11:03:18 2018

    On 2018 May 18 21:03:58, you wrote to Dale Shipp:

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have
    no basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real
    information.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain-a-hanoi-hilton-s
    ongb

    so wikipedia is fake but snopes.com is real, rrright?

    wikipedia can be edited by anyone at any time... anything can be written with no proof... it takes others to find it, question it and remove it if it is false...

    what would you say if I told you that there are sources that suggest
    and show that snopes.com is phony. Just because something fits your narrative, does not mean that it is real, all this really means that
    you have been sufficiently con'd to believe what they are telling you.

    you are looking in the mirror when you say that, aren't you? you, too, are drinking the koolaid...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Buffalo are cool, like smart really hairy cattle that want to kill you.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Bill McGarrity@1:266/404 to mark lewis on Sat May 19 15:16:00 2018
    mark lewis wrote to Gregory Deyss on 05-19-18 11:03 <=-


    On 2018 May 18 21:03:58, you wrote to Dale Shipp:


    you are looking in the mirror when you say that, aren't you? you, too,
    are drinking the koolaid...

    Why bother... by now Trump is never wrong. Heard his next trick is walking to Singapore. That way he'll wrap up both the Peace and Physics prize all in one shot.


    --

    Bill

    Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
    IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
    Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


    ... Look Twice... Save a Life!!! Motorcycles are Everywhere!!!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Sun May 20 00:31:24 2018
    Hello Greg,

    On 05-15-18 21:42, Gregory Deyss <=-
    spoke to Lee Lofaso about Re: The 2001-09-11 "attac <=-

    You want a true American hero? Here's two of them -

    John McCain and John Kerry, both veterans of Vietnam,
    and both recipients of the Purple Heart.

    John "songbird" McCain is a looser, no not because he was
    captured,
    because he sang like a songbird by his own words "I'll give
    military
    information if you will take me to the hospital."

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have
    no
    basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real
    information.


    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain-a-hanoi-hilton-songb

    so wikipedia is fake but snopes.com is real,
    rrright? what would you say if I told you that there are sources that suggest and show that snopes.com is phony.
    Just because something fits your narrative, does not mean that it is real, all this really means that you have been sufficiently con'd to believe
    what
    they are telling you.

    Read what Col. David Hackworth wrote about John McCain.

    The snopes piece is trash. It was written as an intentional
    piece to help McCain. IOW, ignore the truth in order to present
    false evidence. Fake news would a good way of describing it.

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sun May 20 00:31:29 2018
    Hello Ward,

    Here it is free ... colonoscopy as well ...

    Sounds like a pain in the ass.

    Some claim you can get used to it, provided you use the correct lube.

    A full bottle of Vodka should do nicely.

    Down the hatch!

    Oops.

    No opening.

    Must try entry from below.

    First stand on head.

    Then hold open bottle over entrance.

    Be careful not to spill contents onto floor ...

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Sun May 20 00:31:35 2018
    Hello mark,

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have
    no basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real
    information.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain-a-hanoi-hilton-s
    ongb

    so wikipedia is fake but snopes.com is real, rrright?

    wikipedia can be edited by anyone at any time... anything can be written with no proof... it takes others to find it, question it and remove it if it is false...

    The snopes piece is accurate, but is extremely misleading, thus
    making it false. Here is the original quote, by Donald J. Trump,
    that started this whole bunch of nonsense -

    "He's not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was captured.
    I like people who weren't captured." ~Donald J. Trump, July 2015

    The news media then went into a frenzy, denouncing Trump as being
    unpatriotic and un-American, for what he had said about McCain.

    Various blogs then sprang up denouncing McCain, in efforts to
    support Trump. Not that anything in those blogs had any truth.

    Enter the snopes article, which cherry-picked some of those
    juicy items, in order to refute the claim that McCain was not
    a hero. IOW, quite easy to show the articles in question as
    being scurrilous.

    However, there is one man who knew the truth. And he did
    state it. The unvarnished truth. Read my posts to Dale S.
    to find out more.

    what would you say if I told you that there are sources that suggest
    and show that snopes.com is phony. Just because something fits your
    narrative, does not mean that it is real, all this really means that
    you have been sufficiently con'd to believe what they are telling you.

    you are looking in the mirror when you say that, aren't you? you, too, are drinking the koolaid...

    Must be good koolaid, because Greg is absolute right.

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Mike Miller to Lee Lofaso on Sat May 19 17:56:42 2018

    Hello Lee!

    20 May 18 00:31, you wrote to Ward Dossche:


    Here it is free ... colonoscopy as well ...

    Sounds like a pain in the ass.

    Some claim you can get used to it, provided you use the correct
    lube.

    A full bottle of Vodka should do nicely.

    Down the hatch!

    Oops.

    No opening.

    Must try entry from below.

    First stand on head.

    Then hold open bottle over entrance.

    Be careful not to spill contents onto floor ...


    I believe the kids call this "butt chugging"


    Mike


    ... If two wrongs don't make a right, try three.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20161221
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj”rn Felten on Sun May 20 01:25:54 2018
    Hello Bj”rn,

    A president takes an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the
    Constitution of the United States" - from all enemies, both foreign
    and domestic.

    Anything less would be grounds for treason.

    Nevertheless Operation Northwoods

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

    ...were actually planned. By then Cuba was the "target".

    Although I prefer Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United
    States", there are histories written by other authors that reveal what
    teachers did not tell us in school.

    Not everything you think is secret is acrually secret. The truth
    is out there, you just have to know (or learn) where to look.

    What prevented the US government from targeting Iraq, in order to take control of the huge oil reserves there, with the same plan?

    Nothing. Whether for the reason(s) you cited, or for other reasons.
    Or even for no reason at all. It was done because it could be done.

    All wars are economic. The invasion of Iraq was no different.
    Regardless of whatever excuses GWB gave. We all know there were
    no "stockpiles of WMD" that GWB claimed he knows "exist in Iraq."
    Everything he told the American people, and the world, was a pack
    of lies. He had his Secretary of State, Colin Powell, tell the
    United Nations the same story, with visuals. All of it later
    refuted, and proven to be false.

    The first war GWB started was the invasion of Afghanistan, after
    the events of 9-11. That war lasted two weeks. Maybe three.
    The Taliban was removed from power, but the leader of al-Qaeda
    got away. And remained free for many years, until GWB's successor
    Barack Obama took care of the problem. Yet, even today, US troops
    remain in Afghanistan. 17 years *after* the US "won" the war.

    Why did GWB invade Iraq after winning the war in Afghanistan?
    Because GWB needed a bigger war in order to win a second term.
    And also because there was money to be made for certain groups
    of very wealthy people.

    Life is cheap. The young fight the wars so that rich old men
    can benefit. What a crock.

    --Lee

    --
    As Good As It Looks

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Gregory Deyss on Sun May 20 01:47:00 2018
    On 05-18-18 21:03, Gregory Deyss <=-
    spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: The 2001-09-11 "atta <=-

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have no basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real information.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain- a-hanoi-hilton-songb

    so wikipedia is fake but snopes.com is real,
    rrright?

    By George, I think you have got it!


    what would you say if I told you that there are sources that
    suggest and show that snopes.com is phony.

    I'd say you have been listening to the wrong sources. Wikipedia is a
    decent source of information, but since anyone can put something there
    it is not a verified source. The info on Snopes is researched and
    documented, and is much more reliable.

    Just because something fits your narrative, does not mean that it is
    real, all this really means that you have been sufficiently con'd to believe what they are telling you.

    Exactly what I was trying to say to you.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:50:43, 20 May 2018
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Nick Andre on Sun May 20 01:51:02 2018
    On 05-19-18 07:43, Nick Andre <=-
    spoke to Ward Dossche about Re: The 2001-09-11 "atta <=-

    More like a public service announcement...

    Here it is free ... colonoscopy as well ...

    Sounds like a pain in the ass.

    Actually, the colonoscopy is painless. But the prep is not.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)



    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:52:14, 20 May 2018
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Dale Shipp on Mon May 21 03:16:17 2018
    Hello Dale,

    Prove it. Other than echoing a debunked fox news(?) report, you have
    no
    basis for that claim. Take a look at the snoops article for real
    information.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-sen-john-mccain-
    a-hanoi-hilton-songb

    so wikipedia is fake but snopes.com is real,
    rrright?

    By George, I think you have got it!

    Did you pay attention to what this conversation is all about?

    Before he was elected, Donald Trump had publicly dissed John
    McCain, calling into question his service in the military -

    "He's not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was
    captured. I like people who wern't captured."
    ~ Donald J. Trump, July 2015

    The snopes piece discredited what some overzealous Trump
    supporters had claimed about McCain. However, that does not
    mean that McCain was an innocent, as it is a known fact he
    recorded a propaganda piece for his captors.

    what would you say if I told you that there are sources that
    suggest and show that snopes.com is phony.

    I'd say you have been listening to the wrong sources.

    Colonel David Hackworth served in the US Army, and was probably
    the most highly decorated soldier who served in Vietnam. A very
    credible source.

    Wikipedia is a decent source of information, but since anyone can put something there it is not a verified source.

    Colonel Hackworth noted where he got his information from, and all
    of it can be independently verified. Of course, he passed away in
    2005 and can no longer answer any questions, but his writings and
    columns are all there for anybody who wants to read them.

    The info on Snopes is researched and documented, and is much more
    reliable.

    Really? Where did snopes mention Col. Hackworth's findings?

    Just because something fits your narrative, does not mean that it is
    real, all this really means that you have been sufficiently con'd to
    believe what they are telling you.

    Exactly what I was trying to say to you.

    The snopes piece is there to mislead others from the truth.
    I would not doubt it if McCain's handlers put it up there themselves.

    Sidenote - check out the latest version of vDosPlus.

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Dale Shipp on Mon May 21 03:16:22 2018
    Hello Dale,

    More like a public service announcement...

    Here it is free ... colonoscopy as well ...

    Sounds like a pain in the ass.

    Actually, the colonoscopy is painless. But the prep is not.

    I'll take your word for it.

    --Lee

    --
    We're Great In Bed

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to mark lewis on Sun May 27 10:47:25 2018
    Re: The 2001-09-11 "atta
    By: mark lewis to Dale Shipp on Thu May 17 2018 09:18 am

    have you seen the other bullshit about john mccain? they're trying to say that he was the cause of the fire on the USS Forrestal that killed 134 and injured 161 men back in 1967... effin' id10ts and they can't even fact check properly...

    That's taking "blaming the victim" to a new height. A missile misfired and hit his A-4 Skyhawk, did it not?
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Dale Shipp on Sun May 27 10:50:35 2018
    Re: Re: The 2001-09-11 "atta
    By: Dale Shipp to Nick Andre on Sun May 20 2018 01:51 am

    Actually, the colonoscopy is painless. But the prep is not.

    I always use the prep time as an opportunity to catch up on my reading. Have a fmaily history of colon cancer, no stranger to the procedure.
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Robert Bashe@2:2448/44 to Kurt Weiske on Mon May 28 10:32:52 2018
    Kurt Weiske wrote to Dale Shipp on Sunday May 27 2018 at 10:50:

    Actually, the colonoscopy is painless. But the prep is not.

    I always use the prep time as an opportunity to catch up on my
    reading.

    One page at a time between dashes to the toilet. Been there, done that.

    Cheers, Bob

    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
    * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Robert Bashe on Sun Jun 3 02:50:10 2018

    On 2018 May 28 10:32:52, you wrote to Kurt Weiske:

    Actually, the colonoscopy is painless. But the prep is not.

    I always use the prep time as an opportunity to catch up on my
    reading.

    One page at a time between dashes to the toilet. Been there, done that.

    take the book with you and quit running around...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... A big dick doesn't mean anything if it is attached to a bigger dick.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)