• AP Ammo

    From BTDT@VERT/CENTERMA to Asharru on Sun Oct 31 07:10:00 2010
    Re: AP Ammo
    By: Asharru to All on Thu Apr 22 2004 10:36:00

    Nothing like a 40 S&W or 46 ACP hydrashocks, or even semi-wad cutters for ho loading. I want to make sure I am knocking them to the ground as well as put hole the size of a half dollar in them.



    If a round were to be able to knock someone down via the impact alone, it
    would knock you down upon firing.

    Firearm projectiles injure or kill in a couple very specific ways:

    Permanent cavity caused by the projectile damaging and displacing tissue and bone
    Temporary cavity caused by the imparted force from the projectile to surrounding tissue.

    Permanent cavity is the wound channel that allows a target, human or beast,
    to bleed. Both Entry and Exit wounds provide means for circulatory fluid to leave the circulatory system.

    Temporary cavity has varying effects highly depending on the projectile's
    speed and makeup. Temporary cavity from rifle rounds can break bone.
    Temporary cavity from most high-caliber pistol rounds will damage hard organs such as the kidneys, liver.

    The only "stopping shot" there is, with a single shot, is a central nervous system shot to the spinal cord or medulla. Neither of which are especially large, and in a moving target are pretty much hard to impossible to
    accomplish.

    Which leaves you to once again, your primary method of stopping a threat by ending its life: Bleeding them out as quickly as possible through a
    combination of damage through permanent and temporary cavity. Faster, and Bigger, are always going to be better. 9mm may expand, but .45 never will contract.

    Using well designed and reliable ammunition is key. Some ammunition designs don't do as well as others. Some don't expand reliably.

    There is a caveat to this: Shot placement. You *can* immobilize someone if
    you hit major skeletal structures such as femurs, the pelvis. Hit someone in
    a shoulder solidly and that arm is going to be about useless. Hit someone in the pelvis, and they're not going to be able to walk.

    But you aren't knocking anyone DOWN by hitting them with a 100-200 grain bullet. Even hitting someone with a slug from a shotgun isn't going to physically knock them down. They may FALL down after the physiological and psychological factors of that projectile impact, but the impact itself isn't going to do it.


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  • From VanillaThunder@VERT/DISTORTI to BTDT on Mon Nov 1 11:15:00 2010
    Re: AP Ammo
    By: BTDT to Asharru on Sun Oct 31 2010 07:10 am

    Re: AP Ammo
    By: Asharru to All on Thu Apr 22 2004 10:36:00

    Nothing like a 40 S&W or 46 ACP hydrashocks, or even semi-wad cutters for loading. I want to make sure I am knocking them to the ground as well as hole the size of a half dollar in them.



    If a round were to be able to knock someone down via the impact alone, it would knock you down upon firing.

    Firearm projectiles injure or kill in a couple very specific ways:

    Permanent cavity caused by the projectile damaging and displacing tissue and bone
    Temporary cavity caused by the imparted force from the projectile to surrounding tissue.

    Permanent cavity is the wound channel that allows a target, human or beast, to bleed. Both Entry and Exit wounds provide means for circulatory fluid to leave the circulatory system.

    Temporary cavity has varying effects highly depending on the projectile's speed and makeup. Temporary cavity from rifle rounds can break bone. Temporary cavity from most high-caliber pistol rounds will damage hard organ such as the kidneys, liver.

    The only "stopping shot" there is, with a single shot, is a central nervous system shot to the spinal cord or medulla. Neither of which are especially large, and in a moving target are pretty much hard to impossible to accomplish.

    Which leaves you to once again, your primary method of stopping a threat by ending its life: Bleeding them out as quickly as possible through a combination of damage through permanent and temporary cavity. Faster, and Bigger, are always going to be better. 9mm may expand, but .45 never will contract.

    Using well designed and reliable ammunition is key. Some ammunition designs don't do as well as others. Some don't expand reliably.

    There is a caveat to this: Shot placement. You *can* immobilize someone if you hit major skeletal structures such as femurs, the pelvis. Hit someone in a shoulder solidly and that arm is going to be about useless. Hit someone in the pelvis, and they're not going to be able to walk.

    But you aren't knocking anyone DOWN by hitting them with a 100-200 grain bullet. Even hitting someone with a slug from a shotgun isn't going to physically knock them down. They may FALL down after the physiological and psychological factors of that projectile impact, but the impact itself isn't going to do it.


    The important and "effective" round imparts hydrostatic shock. That's the force and remote wounding effect that a high powered, high velocity projectile imparts to the rest of the body

    When people talk about "stopping power" it's usually referring to this.

    It's basically a shockwave through the body that wounds parts of the body not directly in teh area. Brain damage from a large bullet to the head, etc.

    Absolutely agree with teh rest. I think the only stuff that would truly "knock you down" are the extremely large caliber projectiles or larger calibers "hotshotted" by hand loading. (I guarantee a hotshotted .50cal or even .44 would push you back a bit, at least.)

    I love my .357 and the force that thing hits with and the size of the powder load and weight of the bullet is about all the stopping force you need.

    Spitzered bullets are for bleeding out. Hollow points and flat noses are for knocking something down.

    It's the great .30-30 dum dum vs. 30-06 high powered debated. A 30-30 will knock somethign down, but doesn't necessarily have the "kill shot" power you need. A 30-06 will knock a deer/whatever down, but they're going to die from bleed out, not from a giant hole in them. Most rifle shots are hard to see or are very small on the target. My 22-250 leaves a tiny entry wound but is moving at close to 4000fps.

    It obliterates varmints though.


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