hi everybody. What do you think about the current state of the labor market? I have a feeling that if AI continues to develop at its current pace, many people will remain unemployed, including me, who is studying
to become a programmer. as an employee, I have only one way out so far - to improve my skills, but perhaps over time this will not be enough, and the profession will almost die out.

I disagree - even with the advancements of AI. There will always be a need for ideas, code and humans with the ability of creating things we all want and need; AI will simply help you to expedite the creation...

Get on it! Build the next Uber!



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Re: Re: market change due to
By: paulie420 to Dart on Tue Sep 02 2025 07:58 pm

I disagree - even with the advancements of AI. There will always
be a need for ideas, code and humans with the ability of creating
things we all want and need; AI will simply help you to expedite
the creation...

i just see stupidity, deepfakes and overall bullshit with AI.

at it's best it's a plagiarist.
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I disagree - even with the advancements of AI. There will always be a
need for ideas, code and humans with the ability of creating things we
all want and need; AI will simply help you to expedite the creation...

Whenever I hear about how "AI will replace programmers", I respond with "Let me tell you the story about CASE tools back in the 1990's".

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were there programmers among those who answered me? It seems to me that many of you underestimate the development of AI in recent years.
perhaps I exaggerated when I said that the profession would disappear completely, but already now you can see that there are no more vacancies, campaigns are reducing staff, and those who remained thanks to the same AI are doing more work. speaking of vacancies, I meant vacancies for junior developers.
that's why I said that now the only way is to raise your competence to at least the middle developer, since juniors can easily be replaced by one middle with AI. an intelligent person will be able to give precise instructions to AI and quickly check the finished code, quickly finding errors if there are any. at the same time, the neural network writes code almost instantly when compared with a human. therefore, it is advantageous for the campaign to use the middle with a neural network than the middle and junior.
I'm not trying to scare you, these are just my observations. This is important to me, because no one wants to be unemployed. I don't want to work outside my profession, but I may have to.

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Re: market change due to
By: Dart to All on Wed Sep 03 2025 13:31:56

were there programmers among those who answered me? It seems to me that many of you underestimate the development of AI in recent years. perhaps I exaggerated when I said that the profession would disappear completely, but already now you can see that there are no more vacancies, campaigns are reducing staff, and those who remained thanks to the same AI are doing more work. speaking of vacancies, I meant vacancies for junior developers. that's why I said that now the only way is to raise your competence to at least the middle developer, since juniors can easily be replaced by one middle with AI. an intelligent person will be able to give precise instructions to AI and quickly check the finished code, quickly finding errors if there are any. at the same time, the neural network writes code almost instantly when compared with a human. therefore, it is advantageous for the campaign to use the middle with a neural network than the middle and junior. I'm not trying to scare you, these are just my observations. This is important to me, because no one wants to be unemployed. I don't want to work outside my profession, but I may have to.

i am running a node for a decentralized mesh network and to manage payments for the services of the node, i need a RPC api endpoint. prefered a freemium RPC endpoint.
the point is, the RPC endpoint provider i awas using was reducing block range so significantly that i could not query eth_logs for the required block range anymore.
Long story short, using gemini, i created a python based RPC proxy that is able to paginate block ranges that are longer then allowed by the fremium RPC tier.
It just does as much RPC endpoint calls as required to get the whole block range.
so i was able to solve a problem with AI at almost no cost but time. Someone would have to create this code for me for a certain price.
Since i can solve quite complex problems like those via AI at almost no cost now, i don't have to pay someone for it.
And you think AI will have no affect on the labor market?
think again!

Mindsurfer

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Re: market change due to
By: Mindsurfer to Dart on Wed Sep 03 2025 11:18 pm

anymore. Long story short, using gemini, i created a python based
RPC proxy that is able to paginate block ranges that are longer then
allowed by the fremium RPC tier. It just does as much RPC endpoint
calls as required to get the whole block range. so i was able to
solve a problem with AI at almost no cost but time. Someone would
have to create this code for me for a certain price. Since i can
solve quite complex problems like those via AI at almost no cost now,
i don't have to pay someone for it. And you think AI will have no
affect on the labor market? think again!

so did you have to go over the code and fix it up. are are you sure
that code wasn't stolen from 1 or more other sources? that's what i've seen personally when i ask ai to shit out some code or a script for me.
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Re: market change due to
By: MRO to Mindsurfer on Wed Sep 03 2025 19:31:12

so did you have to go over the code and fix it up. are are you sure that code wasn't stolen from 1 or more other sources? that's what i've seen personally when i ask ai to shit out some code or a script for me.

i can't know how the AI comes to what it is coding. It works surely not very different then when i would learn that stuff, but AI has much more memory to choose from and can code super fast. Yes, AI takes from everywhere (thats an issue and not ok) and if monetized, makes money from that information. Everything gets public domain.

And yes, i do not just take what the Ai is coding. i go through the code and have a general understanding of what is happening.

i do not sell my RPC proxy or put it on Github etc. I had an issue with small block ranges on fremium accounts and AI was coding a solution for me.

I had to test the software/code, talk back to the AI and had it make corrections etc. it was not just one go and i had a finished software. It took some testing and fixing. But in the end i had what i wanted and it just works for me now, helping me using fremium RPC providers with a proxy that can paginate the queries.

Tell me what i would have paid if i would have hired a professional software company. Would a professional software company deliver a better product? probably. Would i care if the script that i got from Gemini does what it's supposed to do? No.

And i think we are not yet at the end of the AI development. I guess it will only get better/worse (depending how you look at it).

And certain Jobs just wont be needed anymore or are to expensive if done by a human.


Mindsurfer

ps: i did use the free version of googles gemini for this. Just text prompts, no VScode addon or something btw

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Dart wrote to All <=-

were there programmers among those who answered me? It seems to me that many of you underestimate the development of AI in recent years.

No, I think you overestimate the ability of AI.

perhaps I exaggerated when I said that the profession would disappear completely, but already now you can see that there are no more
vacancies, campaigns are reducing staff, and those who remained thanks
to the same AI are doing more work.

Only because management has had a few articles about AI read to them that promise a major cost savings. It will take some time to go through the whole 1. Wonderful!
2. Why isn't this stuff working right?
3. We don't understand what it does because the AI wrote it.
4. Our customer dropped us because our AI-written code sucks and we can't fix things quickly.

speaking of vacancies, I meant vacancies for junior developers.

Yup. That's what this will hit hardest, sadly.

that's why I said that now the only
way is to raise your competence to at least the middle developer,

But while you are raising your competence, you are a jr. developer - without a job.

IHMO: Any company that thinks that they will replace developers with AI is going out in a year or so anyway.

Now, that doesn't mean that AI can't be a productivity tool and make us better developers. But based on what I've seen of the tools today, we are pretty far from that.

Right now, the best AI can do is be a manual reader/regurgitator for a developer. Maybe, the better AIs can write the boilerplate code for us, but that would be redundant since most of the non-AI tools that we have today can already do that.

AIs will probably improve to a better code suggestor, but we aren't there yet.


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Re: market change due to
By: Mindsurfer to MRO on Thu Sep 04 2025 12:36 pm

i can't know how the AI comes to what it is coding. It works surely

you can always ask it. i dont know if it would tell the truth.

I had to test the software/code, talk back to the AI and had it make corrections etc. it was not just one go and i had a finished
software. It took some testing and fixing. But in the end i had what
i wanted and it just works for me now, helping me using fremium
RPC providers with a proxy that can paginate the queries.

i tried that a bunch of times. it would just keep creating bad code or making the wrong corrections. i would point out the problems with the code, telling it how to make corrections and half the time it would ignore me and do something else. i know that it was stealing from sources online and not giving credit. I recognized the code it was taking from.

Tell me what i would have paid if i would have hired a professional
software company. Would a professional software company deliver

they probably wouldnt deal with you. there's always that rent a coder shit
or just getting help on a forum and paying them a fee.

And i think we are not yet at the end of the AI development. I guess
it will only get better/worse (depending how you look at it).

And certain Jobs just wont be needed anymore or are to expensive
if done by a human.

i dont think it will really take jobs away. there's always going to have to be a human handler. I run robots at my job and they do stuff i wouldnt want to do but they still need to be corrected often.
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Re: market change due to
By: MRO to Mindsurfer on Thu Sep 04 2025 12:22:21

i dont think it will really take jobs away. there's always going to have to be a human handler. I run robots at my job and they do stuff i wouldnt want to do but they still need to be corrected often.

How about jobs in marketing or layout / design?
when you have a product and need some good looking product shots?
Is that something where the AI could take jobs?
Or how about tax advisors?

The question is if AI is overhyped and it will just get a bit better over time only, or if we are really at the beginning of a world/life changing technology that has just started.

Mindsurfer

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Re: market change due to
By: Mindsurfer to MRO on Thu Sep 04 2025 08:36 pm

How about jobs in marketing or layout / design? when you have a product and need some good looking product shots? Is that something where the AI could take jobs?

I'm not sure. I think part of marketing and layout/design and photos requires a sort of instinct to know what might or might not succeed in a certain place (sometimes I think it's just a guess - I initially didn't see much value in the iPhone, but several years later I got a smartphone and I liked it). Also, for photos, I think there's a sense of what makes a good shot; I think AI could be trained for that, but I feel like there's still times when a human could just do better. But I can see AI improving.

Or how about tax advisors?

It seems to me that taxes are one thing where AI could probably succeed in helping people. While complicated, it's possible to follow all the details of tax laws and make recommendations, which I think computers are already good at even without AI. I've been using tax software (such as TurboTax) to help with my taxes for a long time.

The question is if AI is overhyped and it will just get a bit better over time only, or if we are really at the beginning of a world/life changing technology that has just started.

I imagine AI will get better, but I'm nervous about where it's heading. I almost feel like a situation like in Terminator or The Matrix could be a real thing. Also, things like Elon Musks's Neuralink make me nervous.. Elon Musk leads the development of Neuralink, and he's also into AI, so I'd be nervous that it may lead to some kind of AI-assisted brain implant of some kind. I feel like if we allow something like that, then it's crossing a line into something that could be dangerous - perhaps we could end up like the Borg from Star Trek.

Nightfox

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Re: market change due to
By: Mindsurfer to MRO on Thu Sep 04 2025 08:36 pm

How about jobs in marketing or layout / design? when you have a
product and need some good looking product shots? Is that something

I honestly would not trust it to not steal content that belongs to someone else. I've seen a lot of plagarisim and that would open you to law suits.
And you just cant blame it on the AI. you will lose the lawsuit.

Is that something
where the AI could take jobs? Or how about tax advisors?

I wouldn't trust an AI tax advisor, either. Accountants and tax advisors
need to understand everything and keep abreast of new developments.

The question is if AI is overhyped and it will just get a bit better
over time only, or if we are really at the beginning of a world/life changing technology that has just started.

i'm sure it will get better. I believe its still in its infancy in regards
to what we are using AI to do right now.
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Re: market change due to
By: Dart to All on Wed Sep 03 2025 01:31 pm

perhaps I exaggerated when I said that the profession would disappear completely, but already now you can see that there are no more vacancies, campaigns are reducing staff, and those who remained thanks to the same AI are doing more work. speaking of vacancies, I meant vacancies for junior developers.

Unpopular opinion here: IT as a sector is bound to enter a crisis because so much IT personal is producing no value at all.

I am talking about startups working on products everybody but the owners know are not viable, things like that. I think there is a shift going on because the people owning the enterprises are starting to realize they are pouring money in vaporware and that is leading to cuts.

AI is being used as an escapegoat for these sort of adjustments but half the time what I see is departments who were working on vaporware are getting canned or reassigned to productive work.

I don't do professional development myself but most of my friends do, some of them working on high-profile companies and some of them coding things without which you would have no internet in half America. The vibes I get when talking to them is that IT companies are way oversized because they have so many useless activity going on. It is no wonder people gets sacked eventually. At some point, bubbles burst.


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Re: Re: market change due to
By: Dr. What to Dart on Thu Sep 04 2025 07:09 am

Right now, the best AI can do is be a manual reader/regurgitator for a developer. Maybe, the better AIs can write the boilerplate code for us, but that would be redundant since most of the non-AI tools that we have today can already do that.

AIs will probably improve to a better code suggestor, but we aren't there yet.

I haven't doe much with this stuff, but what I have seen is AI is ok for producing boilerplate. Still, most of the time it gives you something straight of Stackoverflow which you would have gathered from a regular search engine in about the same time.

Which is why I think AI as it is today is a bit overhyped. It feels like a faster Stackoverflow.


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Re: market change due to
By: Mindsurfer to MRO on Thu Sep 04 2025 08:36 pm

How about jobs in marketing or layout / design?
when you have a product and need some good looking product shots?
Is that something where the AI could take jobs?
Or how about tax advisors?

Recently I read about a guy taking finantial advice from an AI and incurring in significant loses.

Marketing is a sector which is crashing in slow motion, with or without AI. If you are considering a career in marketing, snap it out.

Graphical design is a different story. I have tried some models for producing graphical output and my finding is that they are good for generic things but awfully bad when you want something specific. Mainly because their training datasets are severely lacking, I presume.


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Re: market change due to
By: Arelor to Dart on Sat Sep 13 2025 02:56 pm

Unpopular opinion here: IT as a sector is bound to enter a crisis because so much IT personal is producing no value at all.

Do you mean personnel?

Nightfox

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Re: market change due to
By: Arelor to Mindsurfer on Sat Sep 13 2025 03:04 pm

How about jobs in marketing or layout / design? when you have a
product and need some good looking product shots? Is that something
where the AI could take jobs? Or how about tax advisors?

Recently I read about a guy taking finantial advice from an AI and
incurring in significant loses.

oh god what a moron. he's better off just investing what american politicians are investing in.
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Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

Which is why I think AI as it is today is a bit overhyped. It feels
like a faster Stackoverflow.

That's about where I am with it. But it's a faster Stack Overflow, with less accuracy.

One of the problems that I've seen with the AIs I've dealt with is what I call the "Yes, we have no bananas" problem. The AIs don't want to say "I don't know", and really, I don't think that they can. So they often make up something that's plausable, but completely wrong.

Lately we had a discussion with the person in our company pushing for AIs for developers (who is not a real developer - go fig). He said that AIs can write our unit tests for us from the code we wrote.

We had to point out:
1. We usually don't write out unit tests that way (sort of a test-driven-design-lite process).
2. Unit tests are supposed to test how the code is SUPPOSED to work. If an AI writes unit tests from code, it will write unit tests on how the code actually works. I don't know about others, but I don't write 100% correct code on the first rev.


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Arelor wrote to Dart <=-

Unpopular opinion here: IT as a sector is bound to enter a crisis
because so much IT personal is producing no value at all.

But that happens cyclically. The Y2K cleanout, the .COM bubble, etc.

I am talking about startups working on products everybody but the
owners know are not viable, things like that. I think there is a shift going on because the people owning the enterprises are starting to
realize they are pouring money in vaporware and that is leading to
cuts.

Yup, that's how it starts.

AI is being used as an escapegoat for these sort of adjustments but
half the time what I see is departments who were working on vaporware
are getting canned or reassigned to productive work.

From my point of view, what's happening is this:
Some managers (i.e. morons) are reading articles in their manager magazines (also written by morons) that are claiming that they can reduce IT staff by using AI. So they are jumping on the bandwagon to just have AI make all their software.

I've been in IT for more than 30 years, so I've seen this many times. CASE tools, offshore contractors, etc. Companies that try this out the right way come away with licking their wounds and vowing never to do this again - but in another 10 years they'll get another moron manager...

Companies that do this the wrong way will end up with a decimated IT dept that can't get anything done - and they can't get any people but the lowest performers to come work for them. (If any of you saw what happened to KMart's IT dept, you'd know.)

things without which you would have no internet in half America. The
vibes I get when talking to them is that IT companies are way oversized because they have so many useless activity going on. It is no wonder people gets sacked eventually. At some point, bubbles burst.

This happens to every company, in every dept. over time. What happens is that you get some managers that like to play the "I have more people than you do" game with the other managers. Then they hire in team leaders who are idiots but don't want anyone under them smarter than them. So instead of having 3 people do the work, they have to hire 30 poor performers.

At some point, it's unsustainable and they clean house. Out go the poor performers and the problem (but competent) ones. If they do it right, all the good people stay with a leaner and less political IT dept. If they do it wrong, shortly after they get rid of all the bad ones, all the good ones will leave for better jobs.

I've been through at least 4 of these "house cleanings". In every case, the end result was a better IT dept. since we didn't have to deal with the politics/drama and abusive people. And in every case, about 10 years later, we were right back to the same environment that caused the "cleanings".

Why? Because the "house cleanings" didn't include the managers that caused the problems in the first place.


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Arelor wrote to Dart <=-

Unpopular opinion here: IT as a sector is bound to enter a crisis
because so much IT personal is producing no value at all.

I am talking about startups working on products everybody but the
owners know are not viable, things like that. I think there is a shift going on because the people owning the enterprises are starting to
realize they are pouring money in vaporware and that is leading to
cuts.

When you say IT, I'm thinking of the people supporting the tech, the
devops people, the corporate IT people, infosec, and so forth. We have
our own problems, primarily when organizations get larger and entire departments need to justify their existence.

I think of an environment where we inherited a wonderful server room
with 4-post racks and a monster UPS supporting the room. The server room architect recommended enclosed racks with decentralized UPSes running 90 degrees from the current layout.

The building architect laying out 3 floors decided in his plans to
delete the stacked closets that were already in place with riser cabling
and HVAC then made a stink about having to add closets back in. I ended
up with roughly half the space and had to add in new HVAC.

We could have moved in under budget and on time, instead ran into issues
with floor loading that required the building to get involved and file approvals, needing to run cabling to new closets, and the new UPSes were
late. But, the architects got paid.


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Arelor wrote to Mindsurfer <=-

Marketing is a sector which is crashing in slow motion, with or without AI. If you are considering a career in marketing, snap it out.

My son just graduated with a marketing/comms degree. I've urged him to
work with LLMs, but he doesn't think that way. Luckily, he was the guy
in his group assignments who ended up doing the video work and is now
working a job where he's creating marketing videos and getting some on
the job experience.

He originally thought he'd have a job writing copy, I tried to impress
that there won't be entry level jobs for original copywriting, but
someone who can massage LLM prompts to write copy will be in demand.

We'll see if the bubble bursts. Most of these LLMs aren't making money,
and seem to have ChatGPT as a basis. NVidia is making money, that's
about it. Wonder when the investors will realize this?



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